Post: #351

See, everyone so devisive. "He's on steroids" "he acts goofy" none of this is relevant. Fact of the matter is we got denialists - anyone can scuplt a nice looking muscular body. It's just that most people don't/won't

Post: #352

So who's more attractive to women?

A slim guy with good looking face



or a muscular guy with busted face (famous Scooby1961)



I think the slim guy would be widely considered far more attractive by girls.

Whether gym/steroids/impressive physique route is a valid strategy depends on guy's baseline point. It is certainly a decent strategy for guys who are average-above average (5-6 face). However it offers poor ROI for truly good looking men (7+ face), who have issues with their game if they are struggling to get laid. It is a horrible/insufficient strategy for guys who are below average, who would have far better ROI from improving their face via plastic surgery or other means. Not saying that they shouldn't improve body, but they should prioritize improving face to get to at least average range.

Case in point:


He went from posting "239 reasons why I can't get laid in Toronto" to setting up regular "Netflix and chill" via Tinder.

I don't think there's much argument about impressive physique being better ceteris paribus, but there is an argument about what is more important and ROI of different strategies.

Post: #353

(03-16-2017 01:53 PM)General Stalin Wrote:  See, everyone so devisive. "He's on steroids" "he acts goofy" none of this is relevant. Fact of the matter is we got denialists - anyone can scuplt a nice looking muscular body. It's just that most people don't/won't

"He must be gay / be a narcissist / have a tiny dick."

Jumping through all these mental hoops to avoid the two years of regular training it takes to get the kind of physicality that regularly attracts high-value women: where they can read your fitness through your clothes and on your face, and they're much more pleasant to be around, even on a casual basis.

I'll say that again: two years of committed training, 3-4 times a week for less than 50 minutes per session. It's likely men spend more time a week playing video games and binge-watching Netflix.

I've seen case studies again and again and again over the years. You can set your watch by it. I've joked with guys about the hot girlfriends they'll have in "... seven months from now." Even with older men, it's only two years of work, and they're now punching 3 SMV points higher with women.

Even for those guys who don't have visible abs - and some guys weren't that strict with their diet - the changes to their core strength physically affects the way they move, and women seem instinctively-drawn to this, since it reads as power. I suspect the female hysteria over 'abs' that was deliberately-programmed into women during the late 80's / 90's, is less about visible muscles but sensing male core strength.

Doubters, do any experiment for me:

- put your arms out in front of you, and deliberately-relax your ab muscles

- cross both arms inwards in front of you and then fan them wide outwards quickly

- now tighten your ab muscles and hold, then repeat the movement a few times.

See the immense difference in power and control of the movement? Core Strength drives all movement in your body. This adds the appearance of Power, Grace, Control and Confidence to your movements: without that core strength, you'll resemble a flappy-handed millennial tech worker, schlumping to the fridge in the break room. With it, you're a Panther, and women will not only notice you walking across the room at a party, but will deliberately-watch, fascinated, as you as you walk naked from the bed to the bathroom.

I might have mentioned this before, but I remember having dinner out with some girls a couple of years after high school and they spotted another guy in our year, and couldn't get over the change in him - he was now a lot fitter and visibly-muscular. He became the sole topic of discussion between them as they studied him across the restaurant: What had caused the change? Was he lifting weights? Playing sports? And who was he dating now?

Hilariously, the ugliest girl of the group realised he was now out of her league, so did the sour kind of disqualification you see in Gamma Men: I didn't want that thing I could never have anyway.

"He looks seedy now," she said, with a sneer. "Like he's been having too much sex...."

He hadn't even seen or acknowledged us, yet was dominating the conversation of the women.

I talked to him at the bar later, noting his control as he walked around the room. "Martial arts?"

"Tae Kwan Doe. How'd you know?"

You mightn't get visible abs in two years, but your weight, musculature and core will all change enough in that time to put you far ahead of most men in any room.

Post: #354

(03-16-2017 01:53 PM)General Stalin Wrote:  Fact of the matter is we got denialists - anyone can sculpt a nice looking muscular body. It's just that most people don't/won't

It's true that everyone can improve, whether we're talking about our physical appearance (body, dress, grooming) or a skill like a playing a musical instrument, doing a sport or learning a foreign language. If starting at a 4 out of 10, with a solid effort and expert coaching you could get to up to 5 or 6. That may or may not be game changing in any individual situation.

Talent, formative experiences, age and other factors come into play; recognizing that there are limits doesn't make anyone a 'denialist' nor should it be an excuse for not taking action.

I sometimes wonder if this kind of debate happens because each of us has a different image of the default man. 'Anyone can do it', someone says, but he's envisioning someone pretty much like him. To see this in action, try teaching something you're good at to average people.

UPDATE QUESTION: Is developing a better body unlike the skills I have mentioned above (musical instrument, a sport, foreign language)? In other words, are talent/aptitude/genetics, age, early life experience and other factors basically irrelevant in terms of what gains are possible? If you think that maximizing physical appearance is somehow different, why?

Post: #355

(03-16-2017 03:19 PM)ComebackKid Wrote:  So who's more attractive to women?

A slim guy with good looking face or a muscular guy with busted face

I think the slim guy would be widely considered far more attractive by girls.

You're never gaming 'all women', just 'one women', (or a small group of women).

The mechanics of Female Sexual Attraction are mysterious, even for an experienced guy like me. Again, and again, I've seen pairings you wouldn't expect.

You only need to get yourself in the door with your physique, then the hard and fast rule I've formed from years of observation of women and hearing them talk about their partners seems to be this:

A woman who you've formed some level of base sexual attraction with will convince herself of her own accord that your physical flaws are charming and interesting to her.

You might have heard her say, 100 times in the past, that she doesn't like men with 'too many muscles', or 'beards', or 'hairy chests', then, suddenly she's dating Paul Bunyan, and now she'll speak of how 'soft' his chest hair is to play with and how his 'beard tickles'.

Nerds. Balding men. Height. Guys with glasses. Foreign guys. Jerks. Broken noses. Guys as ugly as Scooby there. It doesn't matter if that base attraction is formed: the woman will do the rest.

I'll have to think about creating Bosch's Law of Female Desire. Roughly, I think it might look something like this.

1. Women never know what they want.

2. Once they believe they do want something, you can never convince of the obvious flaws possessed by the thing they want.

3. If anything, this only makes them stubbornly-overlook the flaws even more, to a delusional-level, to seemingly-convince themselves why their want is so valued by them.

4. Once they have what they thought they wanted, they'll soon want something else, as time naturally erodes the illusion of perfection they created to justify their desire for their want.

5. As such, they're never happy.

Make sense?

This is why continued game is so important in a relationship. You have to work to keep them wanting you.

There have been multiple psychological studies into female desire over the years, where women's stated tastes about what they like in men has been tracked over a period of years, and what they like in a man changes to match the guy they're currently-seeing.

Post: #356

Connor Murphy posted an interesting video with photos from his childhood and adolescence, so that one can see how his body evolved over time. He started lifting at 13, apparently:

Post: #357

(03-16-2017 04:12 PM)ElFlaco Wrote:  If you think that maximizing physical appearance is somehow different, why?

You don't even have maximise your appearance to see a noticeable uptick in dating quality.

Guys I've seen put in the effort and reap the confidence and dating rewards:

- wheelchair-bound
- post-brain surgery
- post-cancer
- post-stroke
- severe facial or body scarring
- obese guys
- skinny, shy teenage nerds
- 60 and 70 year olds
- guys missing arms and legs

There's more diversity at a gym than in any San-Fran Tech Company.

That's not even mentioning the little old ladies who come shuffling in, day after day, because they know those bags of oranges aren't going to carry themselves.

So, yes, I believe anyone can do it. Most don't, because they choose to be lazy.

Post: #358

(03-16-2017 04:20 PM)AnonymousBosch Wrote:  

(03-16-2017 03:19 PM)ComebackKid Wrote:  So who's more attractive to women?

A slim guy with good looking face or a muscular guy with busted face

I think the slim guy would be widely considered far more attractive by girls.

You're never gaming 'all women', just 'one women', (or a small group of women).

The mechanics of Female Sexual Attraction are mysterious, even for an experienced guy like me. Again, and again, I've seen pairings you wouldn't expect.

You only need to get yourself in the door with your physique, then the hard and fast rule I've formed from years of observation of women and hearing them talk about their partners seems to be this:

A woman who you've formed some level of base sexual attraction with will convince herself of her own accord that your physical flaws are charming and interesting to her.

You might have heard her say, 100 times in the past, that she doesn't like men with 'too many muscles', or 'beards', or 'hairy chests', then, suddenly she's dating Paul Bunyan, and now she'll speak of how 'soft' his chest hair is to play with and how his 'beard tickles'.

Nerds. Balding men. Height. Guys with glasses. Foreign guys. Jerks. Broken noses. Guys as ugly as Scooby there. It doesn't matter if that base attraction is formed: the woman will do the rest.

I'll have to think about creating Bosch's Law of Female Desire. Roughly, I think it might look something like this.

1. Women never know what they want.

2. Once they believe they do want something, you can never convince of the obvious flaws possessed by the thing they want.

3. If anything, this only makes them stubbornly-overlook the flaws even more, to a delusional-level, to seemingly-convince themselves why their want is so valued by them.

4. Once they have what they thought they wanted, they'll soon want something else, as time naturally erodes the illusion of perfection they created to justify their desire for their want.

5. As such, they're never happy.

Make sense?

This is why continued game is so important in a relationship. You have to work to keep them wanting you.

There have been multiple psychological studies into female desire over the years, where women's stated tastes about what they like in men has been tracked over a period of years, and what they like in a man changes to match the guy they're currently-seeing.

"Men fall in love with the women they're attracted to. Women are attracted to the men they fall in love with" Unknown

Oversimplification but there's truth therein

Post: #359

(03-16-2017 04:44 PM)AnonymousBosch Wrote:  That's not even mentioning the little old ladies who come shuffling in, day after day, because they know those bags of oranges aren't going to carry themselves.

Today at the gym I saw two extremely obese, middle-aged women arrive together (think of the photos on the People of Walmart site). I had to walk around one of them to get by, she was waddling so slowly. Clingy sweats. And I thought: awesome, good for you for being here and making an effort. That's a first step.

That kind of obesity is not common where I live. I'd say upwards of 90% of the men at my gym are overweight (not obese). They should prioritize diet but given the culture of eating, it's easier for them to show up at the gym, walk on the treadmill for half an hour and think they're making progress. They don't even use machines.

Post: #360

I've posted in this thread before, but let me reiterate.

Developing and improving your physique only helps. Period.

There is no situation where it can be detrimental to you. Even if a guy is a 1 by a woman's standards if he gets in shape he will boost his attractiveness. If a guy already has good facial aesthetics and is average/out of shape then gets a top physique he will kill.

The only women who reject guys with good bodys are the ones who know deep down that they can't get them.

Even nerdy/intellectual girls will be more attracted than if the guy was thin, average, or overweight.

Again, it's not the end all be all. You can't expect women to just walk up and drop their panties for you, you still need game. My point is all things being equal you will just need less game.

How many times have you seen a girl from afar just enough to see a tight body and thought "Yeah I'd hit that." without knowing anything else about her?

Women do the same thing. They're more complicated, and don't value a great physique as much as men...but the man with the better physique in the long run will get more auditions, do less work, and be able to close with less resistance.

This is my experience, so I'm not just theorizing. I went from being a stick to gaining a decent amount of muscle. I'm not 'big' but I look athletic, and with some better fitting clothes things got much much easier.

In fact I even notice the difference when I get lazy for a bit and start decreasing in size.

The other benefit is other men treat you with more respect. A guy with a great physique just gives off a "don't fuck with me" vibe naturally. Sure, some can't back it up, but perception is reality most of the time.

Any 'physique deniers' in this thread, I don't even want you guys to take any of our words for it. Just put in some training time and see what happens.

Post: #361

I think the only reason this thread has gone on for 15 pages is because of male ego...

Post: #362

(03-14-2017 09:35 PM)Icarus Wrote:  Connor Murphy goes grocery shopping. The awkward part starts at 2m30s:

And this is a perfect example of how having a good body contributes to game. His cringe game would not work on that lizard if he had a regular body. Those shenanigans he was conducting on that rafter in that discount grocery store reminded me of a chimp showboating for a banana! But yet, the lizard was still entranced and moved closer to touch his well sculpted bod. Again, as Rudebwoy, AnonyBosch and countless others have echoed, having a nice body moves you higher up on the attraction scale on average, to lizards.

Post: #363

Uppity lizards turn sweet and submissive in the presence of a male with a powerful physique. A guy who can beat 'em to a pulp puts them in their place. Masculinity elicits femininity. Effeminate betas elicit bitchiness.

Post: #364

(03-16-2017 04:12 PM)ElFlaco Wrote:  UPDATE QUESTION: Is developing a better body unlike the skills I have mentioned above (musical instrument, a sport, foreign language)? In other words, are talent/aptitude/genetics, age, early life experience and other factors basically irrelevant in terms of what gains are possible? If you think that maximizing physical appearance is somehow different, why?

A musical talent cannot be seen unless you are in front of a piano or playing the instrument.
Playing sport at a high level takes years of dedication, I assume we are talking at the pro level.
I would love to be fluent in a foreign language, Russian doesn't help me living in Canada. How long would it take me to speak Russian at a conversational level?

I am passionate about this topic because I let myself go in my mid 20s, I resembled a malnourished Ethiopian.
I was determined to change my body, first was to lose the weight which took a couple of months. Then once the weight was gone, I hit the weight room and the key for me was finding a solid workout partner who had similar goals and motivation.

If I can do it then there is no excuse for anyone.

I wonder what would have happened if I picked it up earlier on in life.

Twenty years ago you didn't need pecs to get a decent girl, nowadays your competing with more people to get a decent girl.

Post: #365

(03-16-2017 03:50 PM)AnonymousBosch Wrote:  ...
See the immense difference in power and control of the movement? Core Strength drives all movement in your body. This adds the appearance of Power, Grace, Control and Confidence to your movements: without that core strength, you'll resemble a flappy-handed millennial tech worker, schlumping to the fridge in the break room. With it, you're a Panther, and women will not only notice you walking across the room at a party, but will deliberately-watch, fascinated, as you as you walk naked from the bed to the bathroom.
...

Ding ding ding! There it is! What we so often forget in a world of digital stills. We all know that a woman can look fantastic in a picture but you meet her and her body language is weak. On the other hand there are those girls that see in pictures that look plain as vanilla but you see the way they use their body in person and your balls start to tingle.

Well it's no different for women witnessing men. How you move, be it with powerful fluidity or weak, awkward ineptitude makes a massive difference in how women see you.

In any case, what it mostly boils down to is the same thing as always. Should you lift? Well what else are you doing that's more important?

Post: #366

When I was younger I was 160 pounds at 6'5, skinny like a rail. I fucked a lot of chicks but there were women who did not fuck me because I was skinny. When I was 23 I met a pretty hot girl who made out with me once and friendzoned me. She had a lot of stripper friends so I hung around and got to bang her friends, plus we hung out and partied and she paid for everything. I left Atlanta for school and worked out constantly for a year and a half-when I got back to Atlanta I hit her up to party and fuck some more of her friends. She saw me and acted completely different- she told her friends not to fuck me. I know this because I fucked one of her girls and she told me, "Jackie said not to fuck you because you fuck all the girls and you are a player".

Jackie had never done anything like that before so I was puzzled. Later on Jackie came in the room when I was fucking another one of her friends and told me not to fuck people in her guest bedroom because it was rude, despite the fact that I fucked all her friends in her guest bedroom. A few days later we went to a nightclub together (she was paying) and happened to run into some of her friends and I left with one of them- after we fucked she told me "You know Jackie likes you right, I know because she told me not to fuck you." and I was surprised. I could not figure out what changed to make her want me suddenly.

The next time I saw Jackie I had sex with her and asked why she did not want to do it when we first met and she told me "You were not the same then, you were so skinny-now you are big and sexy like a man, you are fucking hot!".

Working out and putting on 30+ pounds of lean muscle was the difference between the friendzone and coming in her mouth. Please men heed this story and learn from it-Hit the weights, gorilla fuck that bitch and come in that bitches mouth. You only cheat yourself but not working on yourself.

Post: #367

(03-17-2017 01:45 AM)Atlanta Man Wrote:  When I was younger I was 160 pounds at 6'5, skinny like a rail. I fucked a lot of chicks but there were women who did not fuck me because I was skinny. When I was 23 I met a pretty hot girl who made out with me once and friendzoned me. She had a lot of stripper friends so I hung around and got to bang her friends, plus we hung out and partied and she paid for everything. I left Atlanta for school and worked out constantly for a year and a half-when I got back to Atlanta I hit her up to party and fuck some more of her friends. She saw me and acted completely different- she told her friends not to fuck me. I know this because I fucked one of her girls and she told me, "Jackie said not to fuck you because you fuck all the girls and you are a player".

Jackie had never done anything like that before so I was puzzled. Later on Jackie came in the room when I was fucking another one of her friends and told me not to fuck people in her guest bedroom because it was rude, despite the fact that I fucked all her friends in her guest bedroom. A few days later we went to a nightclub together (she was paying) and happened to run into some of her friends and I left with one of them- after we fucked she told me "You know Jackie likes you right, I know because she told me not to fuck you." and I was surprised. I could not figure out what changed to make her want me suddenly.

The next time I saw Jackie I had sex with her and asked why she did not want to do it when we first met and she told me "You were not the same then, you were so skinny-now you are big and sexy like a man, you are fucking hot!".

Working out and putting on 30+ pounds of lean muscle was the difference between the friendzone and coming in her mouth. Please men heed this story and learn from it-Hit the weights, gorilla fuck that bitch and come in that bitches mouth. You only cheat yourself but not working on yourself.

Sounds like I'm getting my ass back to the gym.

Post: #368

(03-16-2017 07:27 PM)rudebwoy Wrote:  I was determined to change my body, first was to lose the weight which took a couple of months. Then once the weight was gone, I hit the weight room and the key for me was finding a solid workout partner who had similar goals and motivation.

If I can do it then there is no excuse for anyone.

You have my respect, man.

Post: #369

Kind of Off Topic but it even goes beyond getting pussy.

Do you want to live longer? Yes? Then work out. The health benefits have been listed here and about a million other places.

Yes you may get hit by a train tomorrow but you can't control that. You CAN control putting the work in at the gym and stacking the cards in your favor for a longer and better life.

Don't lift for pussy. Lift for yourself.

Post: #370

AB +1

Your posts have inspired me to get back to the magical 200llb mark.

Spring is around the corner, then followed by summer.

No time like the present.

Post: #371

(03-16-2017 07:11 PM)Icarus Wrote:  Uppity lizards turn sweet and submissive in the presence of a male with a powerful physique. A guy who can beat 'em to a pulp puts them in their place. Masculinity elicits femininity. Effeminate betas elicit bitchiness.

Icarus...Im so glad you're back sir

Post: #372

When I'm finished after my 30-40 minutes in the gym - last night it was squats, overhead press and deads - I just get such a buzz. I feel like a damned animal. We're talking here about physique but the mental benefits are at least as important.

Everything else - pussy etc. - is a plus.

I never do too much in the gym. That way I can't wait to get in there again.

Post: #373

Post: #374

(03-15-2017 05:25 AM)AnonymousBosch Wrote:  A girl I banged in my early twenties used to spend our sex sessions just raking my lats with her long fingernails. She explained it was that I was just too wide to reach around, and it drove her nuts. I've noticed that the moment I'm in any kind of 'looming' position over a sex partner, she'll generally go for the lats, biceps or traps, and clutch in a death grip like she's fighting at a high-class handbag sale. They're drawn to not only touch the muscles, but to test them, almost as if they're trying to see if you're unbreakable. Don't flinch, even with the nails.

Maybe it's so they could cower behind you as a shield when the wolves attacked.

Any back training tips?

I've been training my back like crazy lately because I know it can take a lot more punishment than most give it credit for. Big and underworked muscle groups and all that. Curious to know what are your staples and if there's something in particular you suggest.

Post: #375

^pull-ups, chin-ups. Deadlifts.