Post: #401

Yes thats the company I went with. If you want any specific advice pm me. I might do a datasheet or start a thread once im there.

@Adrenaline. If you dont know any foreign language I would do a tefl if I was you. Then travel to the country of your choosing and teach privately. I would have done this route if it was not for the fact I really wanted to visit Japan. And to teach privately in Japan requires living there first.

Post: #402

(07-24-2015 08:17 PM)Adrenaline Wrote:  What/Where would you guys suggest for someone with a teaching degree (primary school) but no TEFL certificate? I want to use my degree for travelling but I don't want to be stuck in low-paying English teaching jobs that people without a degree could easily get.

Did you read this thread? Lots of info about teaching at international schools. This is not TEFL. This is teaching K-12 at private bilingual (or tri-lingual) international schools. Most require certified and licensed school teachers. I do this, and also teach some English on the side.

Post: #403

(07-24-2015 07:57 PM)elcidcampeador Wrote:  @Suits - is it still possible to get a job without the Z visa and negotiate a higher pay since neither of you would need to pay taxes?

I had a friend in Guangzhou that did this since he could get more money and always renew his entries on his tourist visa easily in HK. He was qualified and fit the looks criteria but didn't like having the visa tied down to one employer.

It's quite a hassle, both financially and paperwork-wise for an employer to offer Z-visas. It's even more of a hassle for them to do it legitimately, rather than simply going through some agency that will arrange Z-visas that may well fail to stand up to any real scrutiny, such is when an investigating member of the PSB notices that according to your Z-visa, you're supposed to be working in a completely different part of town in a high school, rather than the kindergarten where you actually posted.

Companies that have the capital and staff needed to justify providing legitimate (or even illegitimate) Z-visas generally carry a large financial overhead. The revenue they earn offering a single class is going to be 2 or 3 times larger than what they pay you.

Generally the better paying opportunities fit into the category of smaller private training centers which have lower overhead and, while many doing really offer full-time (although you can definitely reach de facto full-time if you're good at what you do and end up with a full schedule, due to demand), they are less than legitimate entities and will not provide work visas, although they may be able to help you get one (through other less than legitimate sources). Ironically, these people tend to be more decent folks than the money-grubbing rich types. Generally, if you work a company that does grant Z-visas, you'll never ever meet the owner of the company.

Chinese people get into the business of running legally registered schools because that have money to invest and they believe that they are smarter than all the other people who have failed. The people starting businesses in the ESL industry usually speak no English and know absolutely nothing about education. However, they've got an inflated ego and after finishing some calculations about how much money they would make if they filled every classroom (this really would be a lot of money), they proceed to start a school in a highly competitive industry where it's virtually impossible to maximize the use of every classroom they are paying rent on, unless you've got the big name status of Wall Street English.

From there, the company just barely clings to life. Their cost margins are so slim, that they charge ridiculous tuition that a few people will gladly pay, just for access to a white native English speaker.

These legitimate, legally registered companies, therefore tend to be about the worst places to work. You've got an owner (or group of owners) who have never spoken to a foreigner in their life who view white native English speakers as little more than pieces on a chessboard, cattle or complex machinery. And yet, they need you, because they have no other value to offer.

I've had English First (EF) paying me 150 RMB per hour to go to an offsite location to teach corporate ESL. What did they bill the company? 900 RMB per hour for my services.

They didn't provide curriculum, I needed no support and their sole contribution was to handle the sales component and then sit back and collect the money.

Smaller, non-legitimate operations, on the other hand, while often run by idiots no brighter than the rich jerk-offs starting larger legitimate schools, are occasionally run by good people who take good care of their teachers and engage in a working relationship with them, rather than a strict employer-employee top-down approach.

While you'll start with only a couple hours a week initially, you'll ramp up to more if the student like you and you are reliable. While the closest they can come to getting you a Z-visa is putting you in touch with an agency that will get you taken care of, these operations tend to be smaller and less likely to attract much official attention, so you're less likely to be the victim of a PSB raid looking for improperly documented workers. You'll also likely do a certain amount of teaching offsite of students' homes where you'll never ever get raided. They go after bigger fish than that.

So, in the end, there are some situations where you could be on virtually any visa without trouble. There are other situations where it would be unwise and the company has already committed enough resources to providing Z-visas that you won't be in much of a negotiating position to try to get more money by agreeing to work without one. However, they may be specific circumstances when you can.

My solution is fairly simple. I lock down a daytime job with as minimal hours as possible (15-17 per week) that pays less, but provides a work visa. Then I pick up as many higher paying hours each week as possible doing private tutoring and small classes in apartments here and there in Beijing. It's the best of both worlds.

Post: #404

If you want the more high paying esl jobs, you will have to be sincere and take the work seriously. Business adults can be very fussy and know what they want. Unlike kids who you just make friends with, adults will still drop you if they feel you aren't providing them what they want, even if they like you this happens.

Post: #405

True, unless it's Thailand

Yesterday I had a class with eight 30-something business women.

We played 'blind date' for an hour

Other times I just lean back in my chair whilst they gossip about young men/tease me about my love life for an hour

In Thailand you need ENERGY and CHARISMA!

They hate 'Ser-i-ous teacha'

It's embedded in the language. Sanook. Mai Sanook. Fun. Not fun.

Also if you're fat and ugly, they'll despise you

Post: #406

What do you China expats make of the Chinese economy going to hell? Will it affect the ESL industry?

I don't think I want to be around when the shit hits the fan.

Post: #407

(07-29-2015 04:51 AM)Holy(Muff)Diver Wrote:  What do you China expats make of the Chinese economy going to hell? Will it affect the ESL industry?

I don't think I want to be around when the shit hits the fan.

I'm not worried. I'm in the process of building a small nest egg that will tide me over if there are any gaps in employment for me. That should cover any transitional expenses if I have to relocate to Taiwan, Vietnam, Thailand, etc.

At the end of the day, I don't think that things are going to get so bad that my clients can't afford the 200-300 RMB a week that it costs to study with me.

As it stands, the Chinese government probably is the global government in the best position to prevent total economic collapse. Even if the ESL market were to slow (and it may), demand outstrips supply by a wide margin at present, at least for low cost English teachers. It's already to a struggle to make a decent English teaching ESL. Working in the ESL industry here in China is a lot like flipping burgers back home, most of the work is menial and unsatisfying.

The real way to make money is to cut out all the middle men altogether, which incidentally will allow you to offer rates that are pretty affordable compared to what most agencies and language schools charge. If people start cutting back, the potential for an enterprising ESL teacher might actually grow some.

Once again, I'm not worried.

Post: #408

@Suits

Last time I was in China for an extended time I worked in Shanghai as an instructor for a company owned by a young-ish American guy. This guy had played it smart and positioned himself at the upper niche of the market, offering not English teaching services but rather test prep and academic tutoring for international school students. He's got roughly 15 full time American instructors working for him now in addition to at least 10 full time Chinese and Korean admin/sales staff. I can only assume he's making mad bank as he's been in business for a while.

Now that I'm on the verge of going back to China I've been idly thinking of what kind of business opportunities there might be. One of the ideas I've been mulling over is setting up a similar operation to what I've described above but in an up-and-coming city like Chongqing for example. Obviously the market will be smaller than in Shanghai, but I'd imagine the competition would as well.

I've run these SAT and AP/IB prep classes before and all it takes is some bootlegged Kaplan/Princeton Review books and office space. The former is trivial to acquire and the latter is probably not too hard to come by either. To dig deeper, I think I have the following:

1) The "talent": I've got prototypical whiteface, experience teaching test-prep at reputable companies (Kaplan in USA and the company in Shanghai), fairly impressive academic credentials, very high (99.5th percentile) test scores and industry experience in a field (management consulting) that Chinese people hold in high regard. That could be a solid draw from a marketing perspective.

2) The capital. The initial startup cost would be simply to hire a Chinese sales rep to try and get students to sign up for a class. Even 8 or 10 clients would be enough for a first class, and no other money would need to be spent on materials/space until the clients are found. I can build a professional website myself at this point, so it's just a matter of hiring the sales rep. If a full time salesman cannot find 8 people in the space of 1 month then the idea is dead in the water, and I'm only down 1 month sales rep salary at that point (let's be generous and say it's 5k USD lol). No problem.

The potential upside is huge. In Shanghai, I as the instructor sometimes ran 2 or 3 flagship SAT classes at a time in addition to a myriad other classes like AP, SSAT, and random tutoring here and there. A single SAT class lasted about 4 weeks and had anywhere from 12 to 16 students, each of whom paid nearly $2000 if I recall correctly. Assuming I can find even 10 students for my first class, at $2000 a pop I would earn $20,000 before expenses in a single month. Not too shabby.

Of course, this is all assuming demand exists and I can tap that demand. I'm optimistic on the first score. If a city like Shanghai can support no fewer than 4 or 5 large test prep companies (Kaplan, Princeton Review, DK, etc) than an untapped city like Chongqing, with a population nearly as large and with a rapidly growing wealthy segment should be able to furnish at least some families interested in improving their children's chance to attend American universities.

Anyway, I'm starting to ramble here. Since you've been around the block much more than I have and seem to have had exposure to a lot of companies/models of finding customers, what's your opinion on the feasibility of such a thing? If you want to reply (or not, lol) via PM that's fine too.

Post: #409

(07-31-2015 12:32 AM)Fast Eddie Wrote:  1) The "talent": I've got prototypical whiteface, experience teaching test-prep at reputable companies (Kaplan in USA and the company in Shanghai), fairly impressive academic credentials, very high (99.5th percentile) test scores and industry experience in a field (management consulting) that Chinese people hold in high regard. That could be a solid draw from a marketing perspective.

2) The capital. The initial startup cost would be simply to hire a Chinese sales rep to try and get students to sign up for a class. Even 8 or 10 clients would be enough for a first class, and no other money would need to be spent on materials/space until the clients are found. I can build a professional website myself at this point, so it's just a matter of hiring the sales rep. If a full time salesman cannot find 8 people in the space of 1 month then the idea is dead in the water, and I'm only down 1 month sales rep salary at that point (let's be generous and say it's 5k USD lol). No problem.

The potential upside is huge. In Shanghai, I as the instructor sometimes ran 2 or 3 flagship SAT classes at a time in addition to a myriad other classes like AP, SSAT, and random tutoring here and there. A single SAT class lasted about 4 weeks and had anywhere from 12 to 16 students, each of whom paid nearly $2000 if I recall correctly. Assuming I can find even 10 students for my first class, at $2000 a pop I would earn $20,000 before expenses in a single month. Not too shabby.

Do it and report back

Post: #410

I used to work in international test prep and college admissions consulting for international students in Korea. Similar to China although the market is more saturated and mature there compared to China as far as I know.

There's obviously a ton of money to be made in international test prep. My boss in Korea had only one office and told me that he was spending $20,000 a month on drinking (obviously at the KTV/room salon) when business was booming there around 2004-2006. You do the math, but basically I gather that he was pulling in $1 million a year with test-prep and college consulting. He's also very charismatic and was a "star teacher" which has helped him throughout his career.

The key is to grow a brand as a teacher. Whether it is because you are most stringest teacher (which the parents love), maybe you are the guy who went to Harvard, or maybe you speak fluent Chinese as a foreigner and the kids think its cool. Main thing is to become a star teacher and market yourself effectively while also getting results for your students. You don't necessarily need to be the boss of a place by managing several other teachers. If you develop a niche in a particular subject over a year or two you can easily be making six figures in essentially in a self-employed role.

In terms of capital, don't you need an office? No parent is gonna wanna send their children to an academy that doesn't have an office. It's a necessary upfront investment imo. You don't need an office to do college consulting but you definitely need one for holding classes.

I also don't know how I feel about hiring a sales rep. SAT classes aren't something where you can go door-to-door to get clients. It can be done, though, especially if you went to an elite undergrad, and are willing to shamelessly plug this. Asian people do not care if you are unabashedly bragging; they will hire you regardless. I actually made some decent side money ($1500 a student for helping with one or two college essays) by posting up a few flyers like this.

Overall, these communities of international students are very small and extremely interconnected. It's all about building relationships and a reputation among the parents as time goes on. It will take at least a year, probably two or even 3 to develop a proven track record. That said, the new SAT is coming out in 2016 so there's an opening in terms of establishing yourself as a new market leader. The marketing is all 100% word of mouth, the key is to get your foot in the door (maybe by working at another academy) and go from there.

Anyway I don't have much knowledge in the way of China's SAT market and setting up a business there but figured I'd chime in regardless.

Post: #411

Suits, I'd also like to pick your brain as to how you built up a steady, reliable base of clients for private tutoring.

I've recently relocated to a second tier city. I signed up for a local city website that informs you of new events going on and such. A few days after I signed up, I was contacted by a random lady that found my profile, interested in getting private lessons from me. She asked me how much per hour I was charging and I told her I'd settle for 250 RMB an hour. She said she wasn't interested, so I told her we can negotiate the price. Never heard back from her.

Nevertheless, that little experience tells me that the demand for private tutoring is going to be potentially great here. I just need to find clients. Can I ask you how you went about getting yours? In the past I've tried: networking (asking co-workers, friends, Chinese FBs), putting up advertisements, craig's list, etc etc. None worked.

Short of advertising myself on WeChat and/or going around approaching people and asking them if they're interesting in tutoring, I'm fresh out of ideas.

We can also take this discussion into PMs if you want.

Post: #412

My friend just got hired to teach ESL in DC. He's getting paid 40$/hour and he says he's teaching a whole bunch of 16-30 year-old Latinas with the occasional Asian mixed in. Seems like it's the same for-profit school style that everyone works at in Asia, but it's in the US so the pay is a bit higher.

Not great money, but it seems to me that ESL teachers in Asia could come home and continue the same career and survive. All he ever did was teach for one year in China and has some ESL training certificate.

Also, taking on students for standardized testing isn't really that easy to pull off. I tried to do some GMAT tutoring on the weekends in China, and it didn't really work out. Even though my score is what Americans consider the standard for top business schools here in the US, they have guys over there selling their 780-800 scores and I can't sell that. The major test preppers that have a presence in the US are in China as well.

I guess if you have proof of a 2300+ SAT score you'd be able to pull in some easy cash, but you have to have that score. Otherwise, you'd have to lie, and they'd probably trust the local guy to lie more than you. In China, I don't think anyone would consider anything less than a 2300+top 10 school to be impressive enough to qualify you as a tutor that would command more than 50$/hour. The new thing is for the ones with the serious cash to send their kids to high school in the US.

Post: #413

I started looking for jobs a few weeks back, but I've encountered constant discrimination and racism from school's and recruiters. I'm a Chinese Canadian but have been told by several recruiters that schools don't want me because of my "Asian" face. Only one place offered me a position in some hick city out in the middle of nowhere for 5500 rmb, which is like nothing. I'm quickly becoming discouraged and losing hope

Post: #414

(07-31-2015 11:55 AM)thunder_god Wrote:  I started looking for jobs a few weeks back, but I've encountered constant discrimination and racism from school's and recruiters. I'm a Chinese Canadian but have been told by several recruiters that schools don't want me because of my "Asian" face. Only one place offered me a position in some hick city out in the middle of nowhere for 5500 rmb, which is like nothing. I'm quickly becoming discouraged and losing hope

I'm almost certain that this is a non-issue outside of online applications.

I know China has gotten more competitive because everyone wants to learn Mandarin now, but it's still not competitive at all. If everyone was an RVF player applying for these jobs then you might be out of luck, but that's not the case.

If you show up in a city that isn't absurdly closed-minded (like Shanghai), someone will hire you and pay you a livable wage.

There are very few attractive 6'2"+ foreigners with nice blonde hair and the schools are not hiring these types. These guys are probably working as models for shitty useless overpriced Chinese brands like Yishion.

There are plenty of Asians working all over the place in China as English teachers. I once was paid to give a 2 minute speech at the opening of an English school in Tianjin. No I'm not Asian, but I have never taught English in China. That kind of tells you what you're working with here. Most of the foreigners there are very unattractive, so as long as you aren't a hideous looking Asian, they will hire you. Even then you'll probably get hired somewhere. I also think that you could lie a bit and say you've taught in Korea or Vietnam or something, since they won't and can't verify the information.

I once met a 20 year old coke-addict high-school-dropout that was teaching English in Tianjin and making 15,000 Yuan a month. Every time I saw him he was absolutely wasted or on some kind of drug, and he seemed to be OK with his school. He wasn't good looking either. He had ordered a degree off the internet and lied about everything and no one cared one bit. He was completely killing it with the 5's and 6's that had white-boy fetishes as well.

I'd get a plane ticket over to China and pound the pavement. Tickets from Vancouver to Hong Kong are on sale for under $600 today. Shenzhen and Guangzhou are good choices to start.

Also, it's kind of silly to show up in China with a guaranteed contract IMO, since they are probably fucking you over in some way. Check out the schools in person before you commit to anything and try to talk to one of the foreign teachers to make sure that they are paying you regularly and all of that good stuff.

Post: #415

I know in Korea generally they like to hire foreigners white/black and not Asians because they want the English teacher to have the "foreign" aesthetic since it makes the schools look more "authentic". But honestly they don't really know what they are looking for most of the time, I knew a girl that almost didn't get a job because she was Irish and they told her all Irish people are alcoholics so they don't know if they should trust her! Meanwhile Koreans drink like fishes almost every night.

Post: #416

(07-31-2015 02:01 PM)elcidcampeador Wrote:  

(07-31-2015 11:55 AM)thunder_god Wrote:  I started looking for jobs a few weeks back, but I've encountered constant discrimination and racism from school's and recruiters. I'm a Chinese Canadian but have been told by several recruiters that schools don't want me because of my "Asian" face. Only one place offered me a position in some hick city out in the middle of nowhere for 5500 rmb, which is like nothing. I'm quickly becoming discouraged and losing hope

I'm almost certain that this is a non-issue outside of online applications.

I know China has gotten more competitive because everyone wants to learn Mandarin now, but it's still not competitive at all. If everyone was an RVF player applying for these jobs then you might be out of luck, but that's not the case.

If you show up in a city that isn't absurdly closed-minded (like Shanghai), someone will hire you and pay you a livable wage.

There are very few attractive 6'2"+ foreigners with nice blonde hair and the schools are not hiring these types. These guys are probably working as models for shitty useless overpriced Chinese brands like Yishion.

There are plenty of Asians working all over the place in China as English teachers. I once was paid to give a 2 minute speech at the opening of an English school in Tianjin. No I'm not Asian, but I have never taught English in China. That kind of tells you what you're working with here. Most of the foreigners there are very unattractive, so as long as you aren't a hideous looking Asian, they will hire you. Even then you'll probably get hired somewhere. I also think that you could lie a bit and say you've taught in Korea or Vietnam or something, since they won't and can't verify the information.

I once met a 20 year old coke-addict high-school-dropout that was teaching English in Tianjin and making 15,000 Yuan a month. Every time I saw him he was absolutely wasted or on some kind of drug, and he seemed to be OK with his school. He wasn't good looking either. He had ordered a degree off the internet and lied about everything and no one cared one bit. He was completely killing it with the 5's and 6's that had white-boy fetishes as well.

I'd get a plane ticket over to China and pound the pavement. Tickets from Vancouver to Hong Kong are on sale for under $600 today. Shenzhen and Guangzhou are good choices to start.

Also, it's kind of silly to show up in China with a guaranteed contract IMO, since they are probably fucking you over in some way. Check out the schools in person before you commit to anything and try to talk to one of the foreign teachers to make sure that they are paying you regularly and all of that good stuff.

Wouldn't I need to get a legal Z visa or something to work there? I heard you need some sort of invitation employment letter or something to apply for the Z visa outside of China, before they can process the application over in China, but I'm not 100% sure. I just had an appointment with an employment service caseworker today and he contacted someone who used to work with him here in Canada but moved over to work in China to work as a recruiter or something. He told me to see him on Monday and see what they say. Hopefully I can get a decent paying teaching job that's not in some language mill, and in a decent city like Shanghai, Hangzhou, or Suzhou or something. I don't even think I would mind Shenzen or Guangzhou right now.

Post: #417

Before I start talking too much, I'm not Canadian, so I have no idea what the rules are for visa applications for them.

Americans that I know have gotten hired in China and then applied for the Z visas. I think they had to go to Hong Kong to get it processed.

As Suits mentioned earlier, you don't need a Z visa, although it is a legal requirement. That being said, the types that don't need the visas are the ones that are being hired based off of looks alone, so you might have a tough time selling that to a potential employer.

I still would never blindly apply for any job in China.

Post: #418

There have been some great questions asked in the last few days and I intend to answer to them when I have the energy to do so properly, but first I want to give some quick responses to some of the most recent discussion.

(07-31-2015 02:01 PM)elcidcampeador Wrote:  I once met a 20 year old coke-addict high-school-dropout that was teaching English in Tianjin and making 15,000 Yuan a month. Every time I saw him he was absolutely wasted or on some kind of drug, and he seemed to be OK with his school. He wasn't good looking either. He had ordered a degree off the internet and lied about everything and no one cared one bit. He was completely killing it with the 5's and 6's that had white-boy fetishes as well.

What are the odds that we've crossed paths? I was in Tianjin from February 2010-August 2012. The forum community is small by comparison to Beijing or Tianjin and sometimes you get the feeling that everyone knows nearly everyone in way, shape or form.

(07-31-2015 02:01 PM)elcidcampeador Wrote:  Also, it's kind of silly to show up in China with a guaranteed contract IMO, since they are probably fucking you over in some way. Check out the schools in person before you commit to anything and try to talk to one of the foreign teachers to make sure that they are paying you regularly and all of that good stuff.

Word.

(07-31-2015 06:10 PM)thunder_god Wrote:  Hopefully I can get a decent paying teaching job that's not in some language mill, and in a decent city like Shanghai, Hangzhou, or Suzhou or something.

I've got years of experience in China specific ESL under my belt and I'm still struggling to get offered jobs that don't suck.

That's because the Asian ESL industry is a lot like the restaurant industry.

Most language mills are the equivalent of fast food. As an English teacher at one of these centers, even though their is a strange requirement to "look" a certain way -- a requirement that, of course, doesn't exist for burger flippers -- English teachers get paid no more than their Western burger flipping counterparts.

Let me restate that again for clarity.

Teaching English in China doing any job that you'll find advertised online will pay no more than flipping burgers back home.

Once you calculate in your transportation costs ($1200+ airflight roundtrip) which are not a one time deal, because you'll probably want to see your family and friends back home occasionally), the costs associated with re-buying all the essentials for life in a new country that would be too expensive to ship across an ocean, the fact that life decent Chinese cities is not cheap at all, you're making no more money than a burger flipper.

The market for jobs here in Beijing ranges from 10,000RMB per month to 20,000RMB per month. I've been personally offered up to 19,000RMB per month (before tax) and this was for a job that was advertised to pay up to 25,000RMB per month. (I turned the offer down, because it would have meant making less money than I was already).

You'll rarely find jobs that pay better than 16,000. I have a friend who has been teaching here for 8 years. He is excellent with children and every where he has worked, they would love to bring him back.

And yet, the best he can do is earn 16,000RMB per month and that is when he provides his own Z-visa by paying the equivalent of a month's salary to secure it.

For all intents and purposes, unless you are a certified teaching in the Western world, do not think that you can make more than 16,000 RMB per month working here, especially if you've never done this before.

I'll be now converting that 16,000RMB into USD for a side-by-side comparison between working as a burger flipper and working as an English teacher.

------------Burger Flipper-------------|------English Teacher----------
-----------------------------------------|---------------------------------
40hrs x $7.00 x 52weeks = $14560 | $2576 x 12mths = $30912

Looks pretty good, right? You can make twice the income as a English teacher that you can make as a burger flipper. Think again. Let's calculate in return airfare (assuming that you want to see your aging parents once a year before they die).

As well, when you rent a new place in Beijing, you'll have to pay someone a month's rent to introduce you to the landlord. Hard to avoid doing this if you're renting a place for under $1500 per month and you are new here. The cheapest you are going to do for rent here is 3000RMB per month with roommates in the center of the city or 3000RMB for your own place in the suburbs. If you want to share an apartment with a bunch of idiots, you can do better, but for sanity sake, let's assume that you don't want to live in a college dormitory during your tenure in China.

If the landlord wants to sell the apartment, you'll have to pay a whole new agent fee to get a new place. Good luck getting the landlord to pay any previously agreed upon fees for asking you to move out early.

You'll also need to buy a bunch of stuff that wouldn't fit in your suitcase and wasn't worth mailing internationally at $100 a pound. Count on needing a $1000 worth of stuff to actually be considered settled in. Many English teachers forego this and end up living a substandard life that they'd never accept back home, without even proper cooking equipment, like an oven or more than one fork, spoon and knife. But for the purposes of a point by point comparison, we'll assume that you buy enough consumer goods for a comparable lifestyle.

$30912 - $1400 (airfare) - $600 (agent fee for introduction to landlord) - $1000 (consumer goods) = $27912.

Still look pretty good, right? You'll come out $13352 ahead of some burger flipper in North America.

Not really. There are Beijing numbers. Don't count on earning 16,000RMB per month outside of Beijing. As far as Beijing goes, everything costs twice as much as you'd pay for similar goods in most places in the US or Canada where people flip burgers.

For comparison sake, I lived in Grand Rapids, MI (population 700,000) during the course of my university schooling. $500 in Grand Rapids would pay for a much nicer place to live than it would in Beijing. I had friends who rented a three bedroom house for $600 a month. Sure, it was technically a bad part of town, but it was centrally located and I don't believed that they genuinely feared for their safety living there. As hipsters, they got off on the thrill of living life on the edge.

Even in a nicer part of town, you'd still do better on $500 than you would in Beijing. Much better.

Also, restaurants cost have of what they do in Beijing (unless you're eating local low quality food) if you want good Chinese food or good Western food. And if you took advantage of happy hour type deals, you could have a very good meal (with valet parking) for about $10 a man. In Beijing, unless you really know where to eat, you're basically paying $20 a man for a meal out (unless it's a hole in the wall establishment, which are also delicious).

Also, there are no protections in place legally that you count on being actually enforced for your benefit, so if you get mistreated at one job, you'll probably lose a month's salary in the process. Here are some of the expenses I ran up in my first year in Beijing.

First employer stealing an entire month's salary when I left for a better job: $1445

Second employer stealing an entire month's salary when I left for a better job: $2300

Paying off first employer to give me the necessary documents to change my visa to a new company: $600

Getting a new criminal record check mailed from Canada to get a new visa with new company: $300

Paying a dumb kid's medical bills to avoid being further extorted for something that was in no way my fault: $50

Total: $4695.

After my first year, I was barely $8500 ($708 / month) ahead of a burger flipper who lives in an American city with living expenses 50% of Beijing.

As you can see, when all is said and done, you can easily lose money teaching ESL here in China. After paying a modest rent ($500), you'll have $47 per day to spend on other stuff. That's not terrible, until you consider how much medical insurance costs, how much you might pay for the odd trip to the dentist. You won't be able to go on a nice vacation to Thailand unless you live like a pauper for the rest of the year. A date with a girl will probably cost about $40 if you eat together and even more if you bounce her to a second location for a drink afterwards, so any night you take a girl out, hoping to get laid, you'll blow through your surplus cash for the day doing so, with nothing left over for a rainy day.

You might think you can start with a low paying job and work your way up, but promotions really don't exist in this industry. And even if you do get promoted, it's like being a manager at Burger King. You'll make slightly more money, but you still have a terrible job.

What about jobs at universities? Well, they pay even less.

And remember, when a job comes with a free apartment, they're going to give you the worst place they can possibly convince you to live in, so while it may looking good on paper budget-wise, you're a ways off from living even a mediocre existence.

Conclusion: If you're looking for a decent job teaching ESL in China, it doesn't exist. The content of this post assumes that you can earn 16,000RMB per month and if you're inexperienced, you might not even be offered that much.

If you want to start teaching ESL in China, you'd better get used to the fact that you'll be working a sucky job, until you have the ability to pull yourself up by your bootstraps and create a better way to make money.

The real money is in working for yourself, dealing with students and their parents directly. But that's another major challenge in itself, which I'll write more about soon when I have time to cover it properly.

Post: #419

(07-31-2015 01:09 AM)rungoodinc Wrote:  I used to work in international test prep and college admissions consulting for international students in Korea. Similar to China although the market is more saturated and mature there compared to China as far as I know.

There's obviously a ton of money to be made in international test prep. My boss in Korea had only one office and told me that he was spending $20,000 a month on drinking (obviously at the KTV/room salon) when business was booming there around 2004-2006. You do the math, but basically I gather that he was pulling in $1 million a year with test-prep and college consulting. He's also very charismatic and was a "star teacher" which has helped him throughout his career.

The key is to grow a brand as a teacher. Whether it is because you are most stringest teacher (which the parents love), maybe you are the guy who went to Harvard, or maybe you speak fluent Chinese as a foreigner and the kids think its cool. Main thing is to become a star teacher and market yourself effectively while also getting results for your students. You don't necessarily need to be the boss of a place by managing several other teachers. If you develop a niche in a particular subject over a year or two you can easily be making six figures in essentially in a self-employed role.

In terms of capital, don't you need an office? No parent is gonna wanna send their children to an academy that doesn't have an office. It's a necessary upfront investment imo. You don't need an office to do college consulting but you definitely need one for holding classes.

I also don't know how I feel about hiring a sales rep. SAT classes aren't something where you can go door-to-door to get clients. It can be done, though, especially if you went to an elite undergrad, and are willing to shamelessly plug this. Asian people do not care if you are unabashedly bragging; they will hire you regardless. I actually made some decent side money ($1500 a student for helping with one or two college essays) by posting up a few flyers like this.

Overall, these communities of international students are very small and extremely interconnected. It's all about building relationships and a reputation among the parents as time goes on. It will take at least a year, probably two or even 3 to develop a proven track record. That said, the new SAT is coming out in 2016 so there's an opening in terms of establishing yourself as a new market leader. The marketing is all 100% word of mouth, the key is to get your foot in the door (maybe by working at another academy) and go from there.

Anyway I don't have much knowledge in the way of China's SAT market and setting up a business there but figured I'd chime in regardless.

You make some good points. To be honest, this idea is just that at this point, it is nowhere near the proof of concept stage, even. I've never tried recruiting students and don't know what it takes. If no turnkey solution such as an effective sales staff exists for this kind of business, then I would not pursue it further. The truth is I hate teaching and find education possibly the most boring field of endeavor out there. Only reason I am even considering it is that I have prior experience in the field and a "product" so to speak that I could launch immediately. With that said, if getting this kind of business off the ground would require months to years of slowly ingratiating myself with no guarantee of a final payoff, I'd much rather spend these months or years trying to make something happen in a business I actually have enthusiasm for.

I can see it working out one of three ways:

1) Hire a sales staff and have them do the prospecting. I have no idea how they'd go about it, I'd imagine they'd go to schools, set up fliers, get in touch with interested mothers, whatever. Either it works or it does not.

2) If 1. doesn't work, I could try striking a partnership with an existing language school. Assuming I can find a large city with a sizable wealthy fraction that has no entrenched test-prep service, I could go around the existing language schools and offer to strike up a symbiotic relationship. They would let their existing clientele know about me and my services, and could even pretend that I work under the aegis of their company. In return, they would get a slice of whatever money I generate via my classes while also positioning themselves as a higher-end value added enterprise a cut above the language mills in the area that simply offer English language instruction.

Not sure if anyone would bite, but it's worth a try. I know if I owned a language school in bmfuck nowhere, China and didn't have the staff or expertise or simple energy and initiative to run test prep services I'd be intrigued by a proposal from an enterprising Test prep instructor to set up a partnership and give me 20% or whatever with no added effort on my part, but that's just me.

3) Or total failure.

@elcid

Quote:I guess if you have proof of a 2300+ SAT score you'd be able to pull in some easy cash, but you have to have that score. Otherwise, you'd have to lie, and they'd probably trust the local guy to lie more than you. In China, I don't think anyone would consider anything less than a 2300+top 10 school to be impressive enough to qualify you as a tutor that would command more than 50$/hour. The new thing is for the ones with the serious cash to send their kids to high school in the US.

I don't necessarily agree with the bolded part. First of all, how many peeps with 2300+ SATs and Top 10 diplomas can there possibly be in China's 2nd tier cities? Surely someone with those kinds of credentials has better things to do than teach SAT in a polluted Chinese shithole. 50 bucks doesn't seem like a lot, either. I've seen ads on Craigslist that offer to pay nearly that much for straight English tutoring that any dipshit can do regardless of credentials. Just to give you an idea, I once had a client in Shanghai who paid 900RMB/hr for simple SAT math tutoring. That's nearly $150! All I did was watch this girl try to solve practice problems and and help her when she was stuck. Had some decent coffee while I was at it, too. The reason the rate was that high was that I traveled out to a cafe near their place. These people didn't give a shit about the $$$ or my credentials, they just wanted convenience.

Post: #420

Any idea what LSAT tutoring can fetch there? I had a decent score 96th percentile from what I recall.

Post: #421

(08-01-2015 11:56 PM)lavidaloca Wrote:  Any idea what LSAT tutoring can fetch there? I had a decent score 96th percentile from what I recall.

It probably pays slightly more.

However, there's not as much demand for international students taking the LSAT. I'm in law school right now and in my 80-person section there were literally 2 international students (my school is in the top 15 and is well-known around the world).

It's harder for international students to study law since it requires such a strong command of English. Also, it only makes sense to go to take the LSAT if they want to practice law in America, but most international students end up back in their home countries after college. GMAT/GRE has way more demand for international students.

Post: #422

(08-01-2015 11:46 PM)Fast Eddie Wrote:  I don't necessarily agree with the bolded part. First of all, how many peeps with 2300+ SATs and Top 10 diplomas can there possibly be in China's 2nd tier cities? Surely someone with those kinds of credentials has better things to do than teach SAT in a polluted Chinese shithole. 50 bucks doesn't seem like a lot, either. I've seen ads on Craigslist that offer to pay nearly that much for straight English tutoring that any dipshit can do regardless of credentials. Just to give you an idea, I once had a client in Shanghai who paid 900RMB/hr for simple SAT math tutoring. That's nearly $150! All I did was watch this girl try to solve practice problems and and help her when she was stuck. Had some decent coffee while I was at it, too. The reason the rate was that high was that I traveled out to a cafe near their place. These people didn't give a shit about the $$$ or my credentials, they just wanted convenience.

Was that a private client of yours you found by yourself, or one you met through an agency or language mill? I've tried thorough searches for those types of gigs on CL, but can't find many these days. That must have been back when it was booming and easy to find in Sh. These days agencies have all that stuff on lockdown, and rarely can you find work without going through them. And I don't want to deal with money-grubbing agencies, I'd rather recruit clients myself and cut out the middleman.

Speaking of that, would anyone know how I would go about hiring my own personal Chinese assistant for finding clients for me?

Post: #423

Has anyone ever taught English in Poland or another EE country. What is the rule regarding dating some of your students? I take it isn't as relaxed as it is in SEA countries. Would you get fired? Is this something more or less expected?

Thanks for the info on China/Thailand. The problem is I strongly prefer white girls.

Post: #424

(08-02-2015 03:03 AM)Holy(Muff)Diver Wrote:  Was that a private client of yours you found by yourself, or one you met through an agency or language mill? I've tried thorough searches for those types of gigs on CL, but can't find many these days. That must have been back when it was booming and easy to find in Sh. These days agencies have all that stuff on lockdown, and rarely can you find work without going through them. And I don't want to deal with money-grubbing agencies, I'd rather recruit clients myself and cut out the middleman.

Speaking of that, would anyone know how I would go about hiring my own personal Chinese assistant for finding clients for me?

No, the client I mentioned paid directly to the company I worked for. I was paid a straight monthly salary. I was using that as an example to show that $50/hour for tutoring is not really anything out of the ordinary and doesn't require ridiculous credentials.

Post: #425

Don't have time to read through 17 pages right now so just a quick question- What's the cheapest, reputable 120 hour TEFL/TESOL/CELTA certificate online? I don't need classroom teaching experience, just the basics. I've found a few in the 240-300 USD range which I assume are the top providers, but is there anything decent that's cheaper?