(01-29-2014 04:05 AM)Akula Wrote: (01-28-2014 03:31 AM)Vicious Wrote: The anti-EU sentiment in this thread has become indecipherable (as evidenced by some of the rebuttals above). I suspect that it's just general animosity towards the union talking now.
yeah it got de-railed big time but I think it's just mainly Svenski7's big post.
I do think what's happening in Ukraine shows one important thing: the EU (and the US for that matter) aren't willing to put up the big bucks to help out the country really. The offer they got was not a lot of $$$ and came with all sorts of strings attached, some good, some bad. Russia immediately stepped up with more cash I believe and as they have the resources it speaks volumes.
Also, as has been explained, deep down, many in Ukraine have a longstanding affiliation with their Russian brothers who are right next door. Moreover, they don't want to lose the gas and massive market that Russia provides. Russia is much less competitive than in the EU really and if I'm in Ukraine and I speak the language and see the opportunities there well they are huge. For example, it's easier for Ukrainian agriculture companies to compete and dominate in Russia and the former CIS that it is for them to enter the EU with all it's farm subsidies, labor laws, and home-country ag and dairy companies already firmly in place.
The EU has plenty wrong with it too. The Euro was designed poorly and doesn't really work (different tax regimes, inability for member countries to print, a Euro in Cyprus is not worth as much as a Euro elsewhere, etc.) It's also chock-a-block with unelected bureaucrats who are not beholden to any voters but who go about their days trying to social engineer everything from women's rights to olive oil in restaurants. And with the increasing Feminist ideology firmly taking a hold in the EU (or so it seems) that's a massive worry. Sure women need rights and protections, but it's gone way too far in the US, UK and most of the Angolosphere and I think we're all a bit concerned that if this eventually gets to all the developing nations they will end up as screwed up socially as the US and certain parts of the EU are currently (for men at least). I don't think anyone on the forum would argue that point.
Finally, as Romania and Bulgaria found out, the EU's kinda broke, and these countries didn't get anything like the subsidies that the other EE members got initially when they joined. Nor do they really deserve them, these countries are especially corrupt, as the EU found out with the green energy and various other programs (which have been greatly curtailed in these countries btw). I think Ukrainians are fooling themselves if they think the free sh*t gravy train is coming as most of Europe is trying to take care of its own now and the money just isn't there anymore.
Agree with you 95% Akula. Realize any Ukrainian folks chatting/working with Foreigners are pretty LIBERAL by their standards in the first place and do NOT represent the majority.
Under 30 might have different views since they grew up mostly after perestroika as well. 10-12 yrs ago I warned that the college students were being brain washed in school to avoid foreigners and be loyal to their own. I can assume that Russians were included as foreign in the lesson. Interestingly, i knew a few Ukrainians that tried to pin sept 11 on the Russians lol. This is right after it happened before we knew who did it!
That's the whole problem with the Western Opposition movement.. they want control and do NOT care about what the other half or even more want.Its like the Wall street protests... the minority can always protest and make waves..while the silent majority goes about their work daily.
We had over 1 million in NYC protesting the RNC(much more than Maidan), but reality is Bush was re elected.
Its Also Not really only about pro EU vs pro Russia. Although my Odessan family is more Russain cultured centric, and like most Ukrainians both West and East, don;t even understand western mentality or humor..they certainly under Russian humor mentality. Same way we understand Warsaw pact countries better than FSU countries.
Its about Pro Ukrainians in the west vs pro Ukrainians in the east. My family is pro Ukrainian but they don't have the same desires as the western Ukrainians as for the same type of leadership. They believe make as many trade partners as possible..but EU didn't want that.. they wanted to have changes to Ukrainian cultural institutions.
I have came to the conclusion that the East just doesn't want the western Ukrainians in power....they seem them as peasants, sine they aren't as urbanized or industrialized. They are also annoyed at how they get hateful looks/comments when they speak Russian in Lviv.
They are also afraid of what happened in Latvia...where Russians are discriminated against. Here in Brooklyn I know a few Latvians who are Russian speakers/ethnics and they ran out of there because of the situation.They also didn't like how the last western Ukrainian chosen president ran the country and made waves, especially energy price increases.They were always on the defensive worrying about being forced to speak Ukrainian and NOT being able to learn Russian in school. The lat president also passed laws requiring Ukrainians in gov't positions to speak Ukrainian. Obviously this discriminates against eastern Ukrainians.The list never ends. They both agree they want less corruption but we all know that isn't going to change much regardless of whomever wins?
As for becoming bad for pickup guys?Nothing is going to change. .for decades either way.Interestingly the liberal opposition groups from the west are actually more opposed to homosexuality and feminism than even the East. The church doesn't allow it and they are more religious..but they clearly don't care. I guess they will still punch gays in the face lol.
personally my major concerns are:
1. my monthly utility prices will go up because of Russia increasing gas prices. Also meddling EU will expect Ukraine to raise prices. Of course this is a bad idea..they use central heating..it would cost trillions to update all of Ukraine so Ukraine cant hope to raise prices with the western countries views of decreasing demand.
2. food prices will increase. Maybe some meats will get cheaper but everyone knows EU wants Ukraine's food sources and increased demand will increase prices.All these opposition leaders will then complain about increases in prices which will NOT have an increase in wages to keep up!
3. Ukraine will be forced to adopt dual citizenship...so I will become UKRAINIAN..so I can get to Uzbekistan and other CIS countries easier.
4. In 4-5 years, the NEW administration will fuck up Ukraine so much that folks want a change again. Their last Western leader was a good example of this. Also since most likely another big recession is coming to the world in the next 5 years.....the opposition presidency will be blamed!
I am thinking that maybe they should split up......let Western Ukraine become like Moldova.
*Ukraine will be overrun with more sex tourists than ever before. The last western administration did that in 2005 with the new visa rules. I guess the west is voting for the whoring of thier women?
AS for those who are thinking about Americans are bashing EU.. BS! I don't see them doing that , of course they are giving opinions mostly based on media sources the same way our European members judge America based on media. Funny because I worked with a British company when I was an expat in Kiev and all they did was bash the EU. They thought a union of Canada, USA and UK made more sense because of culture at least lol.
But people have to face the fact that the emerging world is where the future is going to be. America at least knows this and we have our heels in Asia and Brazil already(notice where our new bases and fleet re positioning is??). Ukraine had a chance to become closer to Russia who also will be involved in Asia and part of the new developing economies but they seem to prefer joining the old world order..NOT the new one. As standards of living decrease in the old world(this includes angloshere) who the hell wants to join that?
Akula also made a good point about Romania and Bulgaria. Those countries don't have after tax more income than Ukrainians. Remember most Ukrainians don't report real income or pay taxes..so its ALL after tax lol.They are struggling and Ukraine which has almost 50 million people will never get the money they need from the west to modernize most of its major cities.
Romania and Bulgaria also didn't get rid of their inherent dislike of homo's and feminism just because the EU told them to lol. They aren't treating gypsies good as well.
Also realize western institutions are funding many opposition groups. What do you think those Ukrainian humanitarian groups and women's groups are doing?
My credit union in NYC is a Ukrainian credit union, they have had the highest cd rates in America for last 3 years. They brag on their newsletter how they yearly send millions to svoboda party. The credit union was started by the Western non soviet Ukrainians that immigrated to America before WW 2.
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