(01-28-2014 04:48 AM)Petrosius Wrote:  how will this situation probably end?

Nobody knows, but seven years ago it was clear to me that the country couldn't move forward until it fixed its ethnic-cultural-linguistic divide in one way or another. When I mentioned that to people at the time, they wrote it off and thought it was a stupid idea. Now there are mumbles of a change to a federation model with self-governing republics. There are even some articles raising the idea of a breakup, a la Yugo-Slavia.

The Westerners (L'vov, Ivano Frankovsk, Ternopol, etc.) usually take a hard-line view and want the whole country running on their terms. Once they realise it will never happen, they'll probably start pushing for a split or federation.

Yo Akula, you get my PM?

(01-29-2014 04:05 AM)Akula Wrote:  

(01-28-2014 03:31 AM)Vicious Wrote:  The anti-EU sentiment in this thread has become indecipherable (as evidenced by some of the rebuttals above). I suspect that it's just general animosity towards the union talking now.

...

Also, as has been explained, deep down, many in Ukraine have a longstanding affiliation with their Russian brothers who are right next door. Moreover, they don't want to lose the gas and massive market that Russia provides. Russia is much less competitive than in the EU really and if I'm in Ukraine and I speak the language and see the opportunities there well they are huge. For example, it's easier for Ukrainian agriculture companies to compete and dominate in Russia and the former CIS that it is for them to enter the EU with all it's farm subsidies, labor laws, and home-country ag and dairy companies already firmly in place.

...

I agree with all of this paragraph but the first sentence. If Ukraine can somehow take advantage of the two markets (Russia and EU) with its resources and talents it can become a strong nation in the 21st century. They need strong leadership that can play both sides. Hell, even Yanukovich seemed reluctant to engage with Russia, but for the cash infusion. The relationship (Russia, Ukraine) over the last few years has not been great.

That said, I have known 100s of Ukrainians socially and I have not heard a single kind thing about Russia, the Russian government and the Russian people. I went on vacation once to Crimea and once to Thailand with (Russian speaking) Ukrainians and they did nothing but complain about all the rude, abrasive Russians. I am an American and definitely more of a Russophile and even appreciate Putin more than any I have met. People have been from Lviv, Kiev, Odessa and Dnipropretovsk, almost all 35 and younger. Given that, brotherhood is a stretch, only Russians say that when they want to lay claim. Russians famously dislike Ukrainians, mock them, look down on them. Most often when I mention Ukraine to a Russian ("Where did you learn some Russian?"), I get silence or "we don't like them".

"Mother Russia"
"Ukrainian Brothers"

These all seem to be the idea of Russian nationals. Most Ukrainians believe that Ukraine is the true fatherland of eastern slavic culture. Moscow? Redneck country upstarts. Oppressors.

Is it different "deep down"? Certainly the cultures are close, but deep down, I believe Ukrainians want to be free of Russia.

Most of the US press - stationed in Moscow - takes the Russian view, likely because their thinking is Russified and they hadn't spent much time in Ukraine, and probably none in Lviv.

RE: FSU Pussy paradise. I would rather game chicks for short term fun in Poland (or even France), than the former-FSU, to be honest. I believe EU culture makes women more available sexually, women's liberation. The women in Ukraine - sure they look out for themselves - have more traditional values, even in times of protest and revolution. The one theme I saw in Roosh's writing about Ukraine: it was a hell of a lot of work! I find this video very expressive of the people, women and men, in Ukraine.

http://vimeo.com/85287087

Full disclosure: I have spent between 3 to 4 years in Ukraine out of the last 6; about 24 hours in Moscow airports. I have a one sided experience.

(01-29-2014 04:05 AM)Akula Wrote:  

(01-28-2014 03:31 AM)Vicious Wrote:  The anti-EU sentiment in this thread has become indecipherable (as evidenced by some of the rebuttals above). I suspect that it's just general animosity towards the union talking now.

yeah it got de-railed big time but I think it's just mainly Svenski7's big post.

I do think what's happening in Ukraine shows one important thing: the EU (and the US for that matter) aren't willing to put up the big bucks to help out the country really. The offer they got was not a lot of $$$ and came with all sorts of strings attached, some good, some bad. Russia immediately stepped up with more cash I believe and as they have the resources it speaks volumes.

Also, as has been explained, deep down, many in Ukraine have a longstanding affiliation with their Russian brothers who are right next door. Moreover, they don't want to lose the gas and massive market that Russia provides. Russia is much less competitive than in the EU really and if I'm in Ukraine and I speak the language and see the opportunities there well they are huge. For example, it's easier for Ukrainian agriculture companies to compete and dominate in Russia and the former CIS that it is for them to enter the EU with all it's farm subsidies, labor laws, and home-country ag and dairy companies already firmly in place.

The EU has plenty wrong with it too. The Euro was designed poorly and doesn't really work (different tax regimes, inability for member countries to print, a Euro in Cyprus is not worth as much as a Euro elsewhere, etc.) It's also chock-a-block with unelected bureaucrats who are not beholden to any voters but who go about their days trying to social engineer everything from women's rights to olive oil in restaurants. And with the increasing Feminist ideology firmly taking a hold in the EU (or so it seems) that's a massive worry. Sure women need rights and protections, but it's gone way too far in the US, UK and most of the Angolosphere and I think we're all a bit concerned that if this eventually gets to all the developing nations they will end up as screwed up socially as the US and certain parts of the EU are currently (for men at least). I don't think anyone on the forum would argue that point.

Finally, as Romania and Bulgaria found out, the EU's kinda broke, and these countries didn't get anything like the subsidies that the other EE members got initially when they joined. Nor do they really deserve them, these countries are especially corrupt, as the EU found out with the green energy and various other programs (which have been greatly curtailed in these countries btw). I think Ukrainians are fooling themselves if they think the free sh*t gravy train is coming as most of Europe is trying to take care of its own now and the money just isn't there anymore.

Agree with you 95% Akula. Realize any Ukrainian folks chatting/working with Foreigners are pretty LIBERAL by their standards in the first place and do NOT represent the majority.
Under 30 might have different views since they grew up mostly after perestroika as well. 10-12 yrs ago I warned that the college students were being brain washed in school to avoid foreigners and be loyal to their own. I can assume that Russians were included as foreign in the lesson. Interestingly, i knew a few Ukrainians that tried to pin sept 11 on the Russians lol. This is right after it happened before we knew who did it!
That's the whole problem with the Western Opposition movement.. they want control and do NOT care about what the other half or even more want.Its like the Wall street protests... the minority can always protest and make waves..while the silent majority goes about their work daily.
We had over 1 million in NYC protesting the RNC(much more than Maidan), but reality is Bush was re elected.
Its Also Not really only about pro EU vs pro Russia. Although my Odessan family is more Russain cultured centric, and like most Ukrainians both West and East, don;t even understand western mentality or humor..they certainly under Russian humor mentality. Same way we understand Warsaw pact countries better than FSU countries.
Its about Pro Ukrainians in the west vs pro Ukrainians in the east. My family is pro Ukrainian but they don't have the same desires as the western Ukrainians as for the same type of leadership. They believe make as many trade partners as possible..but EU didn't want that.. they wanted to have changes to Ukrainian cultural institutions.
I have came to the conclusion that the East just doesn't want the western Ukrainians in power....they seem them as peasants, sine they aren't as urbanized or industrialized. They are also annoyed at how they get hateful looks/comments when they speak Russian in Lviv.
They are also afraid of what happened in Latvia...where Russians are discriminated against. Here in Brooklyn I know a few Latvians who are Russian speakers/ethnics and they ran out of there because of the situation.They also didn't like how the last western Ukrainian chosen president ran the country and made waves, especially energy price increases.They were always on the defensive worrying about being forced to speak Ukrainian and NOT being able to learn Russian in school. The lat president also passed laws requiring Ukrainians in gov't positions to speak Ukrainian. Obviously this discriminates against eastern Ukrainians.The list never ends. They both agree they want less corruption but we all know that isn't going to change much regardless of whomever wins?
As for becoming bad for pickup guys?Nothing is going to change. .for decades either way.Interestingly the liberal opposition groups from the west are actually more opposed to homosexuality and feminism than even the East. The church doesn't allow it and they are more religious..but they clearly don't care. I guess they will still punch gays in the face lol.

personally my major concerns are:
1. my monthly utility prices will go up because of Russia increasing gas prices. Also meddling EU will expect Ukraine to raise prices. Of course this is a bad idea..they use central heating..it would cost trillions to update all of Ukraine so Ukraine cant hope to raise prices with the western countries views of decreasing demand.
2. food prices will increase. Maybe some meats will get cheaper but everyone knows EU wants Ukraine's food sources and increased demand will increase prices.All these opposition leaders will then complain about increases in prices which will NOT have an increase in wages to keep up!
3. Ukraine will be forced to adopt dual citizenship...so I will become UKRAINIAN..so I can get to Uzbekistan and other CIS countries easier.
4. In 4-5 years, the NEW administration will fuck up Ukraine so much that folks want a change again. Their last Western leader was a good example of this. Also since most likely another big recession is coming to the world in the next 5 years.....the opposition presidency will be blamed!

I am thinking that maybe they should split up......let Western Ukraine become like Moldova.


*Ukraine will be overrun with more sex tourists than ever before. The last western administration did that in 2005 with the new visa rules. I guess the west is voting for the whoring of thier women?

AS for those who are thinking about Americans are bashing EU.. BS! I don't see them doing that , of course they are giving opinions mostly based on media sources the same way our European members judge America based on media. Funny because I worked with a British company when I was an expat in Kiev and all they did was bash the EU. They thought a union of Canada, USA and UK made more sense because of culture at least lol.
But people have to face the fact that the emerging world is where the future is going to be. America at least knows this and we have our heels in Asia and Brazil already(notice where our new bases and fleet re positioning is??). Ukraine had a chance to become closer to Russia who also will be involved in Asia and part of the new developing economies but they seem to prefer joining the old world order..NOT the new one. As standards of living decrease in the old world(this includes angloshere) who the hell wants to join that?
Akula also made a good point about Romania and Bulgaria. Those countries don't have after tax more income than Ukrainians. Remember most Ukrainians don't report real income or pay taxes..so its ALL after tax lol.They are struggling and Ukraine which has almost 50 million people will never get the money they need from the west to modernize most of its major cities.
Romania and Bulgaria also didn't get rid of their inherent dislike of homo's and feminism just because the EU told them to lol. They aren't treating gypsies good as well.

Also realize western institutions are funding many opposition groups. What do you think those Ukrainian humanitarian groups and women's groups are doing?
My credit union in NYC is a Ukrainian credit union, they have had the highest cd rates in America for last 3 years. They brag on their newsletter how they yearly send millions to svoboda party. The credit union was started by the Western non soviet Ukrainians that immigrated to America before WW 2.

(01-29-2014 07:02 AM)Teedub Wrote:  Yo Akula, you get my PM?

got it check your inbox sent you a pm

Gave thanks to uncle Joseph and the soviets for the russianified east ukraine. Ukranian was even banned during the soviet days. And yes, most of the under 35 years old prefer to remain independant from rusia, even in the east. The Rusophilia is more acute in the +40 years old band of the population, or in Crimea.

(01-29-2014 01:26 PM)Mekorig Wrote:  Gave thanks to uncle Joseph and the soviets for the russianified east ukraine. Ukranian was even banned during the soviet days. And yes, most of the under 35 years old prefer to remain independant from rusia, even in the east. The Rusophilia is more acute in the +40 years old band of the population, or in Crimea.

I would say over 30 likes Russia culture, although maybe not the gov't..but that's NOT what its about really. The eastern Ukrainians are just NOT the same as the Western Ukrainians, even religion is a bit different. They want independent Ukraine..one that makes it own choices. That means ideally having trade agreements with both EU, Russia, China , etc. Even 40-50 year old want to be independent from Russia..but they want true independence..that means not having their culture infringed upon by EU.
They don't trust Russia but they don't trust EU, America either. They shouldn't, should they?
The westerners might hate Yanukovych for many reasons. But some say he was just wanting more money from EU and that he wanted trade with both sides and not have to choose. His gangster charm unfortunately doesn't work in the embroidery shirted west lol.The EU wasn't giving enough money to avoid default..he will get blamed for default. Also when the EU starts expecting gay rights, protection of copyright, etc..he wouldn't really be able to get compliance. Western Ukrainians also download illegally..you think they are all going to stop doing so?

Interesting piece charicaturizing the Party of Regions view of Euromaidan, from the pro-protest English Kyiv paper. Sounds like some of the views expressed here on the forum.

http://www.kyivpost.com/opinion/op-ed/ka...35812.html

(01-29-2014 01:40 PM)jimukr104 Wrote:  

(01-29-2014 01:26 PM)Mekorig Wrote:  Gave thanks to uncle Joseph and the soviets for the russianified east ukraine. Ukranian was even banned during the soviet days. And yes, most of the under 35 years old prefer to remain independant from rusia, even in the east. The Rusophilia is more acute in the +40 years old band of the population, or in Crimea.

I would say over 30 likes Russia culture, although maybe not the gov't..but that's NOT what its about really. The eastern Ukrainians are just NOT the same as the Western Ukrainians, even religion is a bit different. They want independent Ukraine..one that makes it own choices. That means ideally having trade agreements with both EU, Russia, China , etc. Even 40-50 year old want to be independent from Russia..but they want true independence..that means not having their culture infringed upon by EU.
They don't trust Russia but they don't trust EU, America either. They shouldn't, should they?
The westerners might hate Yanukovych for many reasons. But some say he was just wanting more money from EU and that he wanted trade with both sides and not have to choose. His gangster charm unfortunately doesn't work in the embroidery shirted west lol.The EU wasn't giving enough money to avoid default..he will get blamed for default. Also when the EU starts expecting gay rights, protection of copyright, etc..he wouldn't really be able to get compliance. Western Ukrainians also download illegally..you think they are all going to stop doing so?

Yes. If you enforced gay rights and copyright law, then people would really be in the streets.

(01-29-2014 01:50 PM)rastignac Wrote:  

(01-29-2014 01:40 PM)jimukr104 Wrote:  

(01-29-2014 01:26 PM)Mekorig Wrote:  Gave thanks to uncle Joseph and the soviets for the russianified east ukraine. Ukranian was even banned during the soviet days. And yes, most of the under 35 years old prefer to remain independant from rusia, even in the east. The Rusophilia is more acute in the +40 years old band of the population, or in Crimea.

I would say over 30 likes Russia culture, although maybe not the gov't..but that's NOT what its about really. The eastern Ukrainians are just NOT the same as the Western Ukrainians, even religion is a bit different. They want independent Ukraine..one that makes it own choices. That means ideally having trade agreements with both EU, Russia, China , etc. Even 40-50 year old want to be independent from Russia..but they want true independence..that means not having their culture infringed upon by EU.
They don't trust Russia but they don't trust EU, America either. They shouldn't, should they?
The westerners might hate Yanukovych for many reasons. But some say he was just wanting more money from EU and that he wanted trade with both sides and not have to choose. His gangster charm unfortunately doesn't work in the embroidery shirted west lol.The EU wasn't giving enough money to avoid default..he will get blamed for default. Also when the EU starts expecting gay rights, protection of copyright, etc..he wouldn't really be able to get compliance. Western Ukrainians also download illegally..you think they are all going to stop doing so?

Yes. If you enforced gay rights and copyright law, then people would really be in the streets.

If you call a FSU guy gay...he has to hit you, if he doesn't his friends will fuck him up.Its like LAW there lol.

(01-29-2014 01:26 PM)Mekorig Wrote:  Gave thanks to uncle Joseph and the soviets for the russianified east ukraine. Ukranian was even banned during the soviet days. And yes, most of the under 35 years old prefer to remain independant from rusia, even in the east. The Rusophilia is more acute in the +40 years old band of the population, or in Crimea.

Yes. It is hard to argue Russification wasn't real and plays a major role in the current East/West division. The Ukrainian nationalist argument is that Eastern Ukrainian was forcefully "Russified" (language, culture) both by the empire and the USSR. Russification happened in many FSU countries.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russification_of_Ukraine

The extreme Russian view is that Ukraine ("Little Russia") is not its own people or nation or even language.

I have a couple of books about how it was living under the soviet (and Nazi) ocupation in Ukraine. And yes, the Russian Soviets did not even want to recognize Ukraine has a distint country, they did it anyway because they feared for a revolt even they cound not control.

Check out this video. Ukraine's richest man talking to protesters.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wATz18qXNo#t=207

Good article about Western hypocrisy:

http://rt.com/op-edge/west-double-standa...ussia-403/

(01-30-2014 03:50 PM)Teedub Wrote:  Good article about Western hypocrisy:

http://rt.com/op-edge/west-double-standa...ussia-403/

Here's another point of view:
http://gulfnews.com/opinions/columnists/...-1.1284378


Those industrial workers in the EAST should come and smash protesters with hammers and chainsaws!

(01-28-2014 04:48 AM)Petrosius Wrote:  how will this situation probably end?

I think you have to look to precedents. Ukraine is not Egypt or Thailand. So far the military has not been involved on a large scale. Public services are still in working order.

I don't see it dissolving into anarchy given the above statements.

Ukraine seems to be stuck in a cold-war era confrontation between east and west. Russia is "bear hugging" Ukraine to stay the course. The EU bureaucrats are scratching their collective asses.

So the question becomes; who has leverage in this situation?

I think Putin steps in, makes a deal that gives Ukraine more "freedom" and things settle down for a few years.

Perhaps a deal is made to have early elections. There is no "other" for the Ukrainian leadership to negotiate with. So they will have to take unilateral steps.

The problem is there are very few leaders in the world today. America's leader is useless. The EU is leaderless. (German is consolidating power.) Ukraine's leader is ineffective.

Putin stands alone. What happens in Ukraine will be decided by him alone. Right now he's more interested in the Olympics however.

(01-31-2014 04:50 PM)jtbabycarrots Wrote:  

(01-28-2014 04:48 AM)Petrosius Wrote:  how will this situation probably end?

I think you have to look to precedents. Ukraine is not Egypt or Thailand. So far the military has not been involved on a large scale. Public services are still in working order.

I don't see it dissolving into anarchy given the above statements.

Ukraine seems to be stuck in a cold-war era confrontation between east and west. Russia is "bear hugging" Ukraine to stay the course. The EU bureaucrats are scratching their collective asses.

So the question becomes; who has leverage in this situation?

I think Putin steps in, makes a deal that gives Ukraine more "freedom" and things settle down for a few years.

Perhaps a deal is made to have early elections. There is no "other" for the Ukrainian leadership to negotiate with. So they will have to take unilateral steps.

The problem is there are very few leaders in the world today. America's leader is useless. The EU is leaderless. (German is consolidating power.) Ukraine's leader is ineffective.

Putin stands alone. What happens in Ukraine will be decided by him alone. Right now he's more interested in the Olympics however.

I wish you were right....but the Ukrainian administration has shown weakness..this is leading to the protesters demanding more. The opposition know s that if they get elections NOW that the EAST&SOUTH don't have a viable candidate to win hearts and minds and NO WAY will they vote for the present president after he has shown weakness.
I think this was their plan. They win by standing ground because either they get elections now and win or they wait to 2015 and win because ALL of Ukraine will give up faith in a strong Eastern leader.
The only card i see the local administration trying is to delay pension checks, gov't pay and other crucial services and blame the opposition. Truth is if they don't get Russain money this might happen. Plenty of folks on both sides will get angry at the opposition if they are believed to be the cause. Its the same as the opposition trying to blame gov't for kidnapping members. We only can believe what they tell us..as far as we know the opposition leaders did it to get sympathy??

Military should maybe be used to get control of gov't buildings. Don't crack down on the peaceful protesters but the gov't buildings should be protected. NO = to national guard it seems!

(01-28-2014 04:48 AM)Petrosius Wrote:  how will this situation probably end?

With an epic light sabre battle obviously

http://elitedaily.com/news/politics/light-sabers/

this is bad news for Bang Ukraine. I bought the book and now will have to wait another couple years to visit the place?

Honestly , I don't see myself daygaming these days on Independence Square...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-...-tree.html

I have definitely seen that it is a mistake to think that everyone's views in Ukraine are monolithic on this issue, and that everyone is automatically on the side of the protesters, or wanting to be part of the EU. The more I learn, the more I see it as a matter of perspective for the people there. It really is almost like an East vs West mentality. With the women I keep in contact with, I've pretty much learned to find out which way she's leaning, and then nod my head and go with that.

(02-01-2014 12:22 PM)michelin Wrote:  Honestly , I don't see myself daygaming these days on Independence Square...

Yep...one girl used the words "being ruined" when describing Kiev right now.

Kiev looks like this right now.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gdv5EtZQ6jg

Sorry i DON'T KNOW HOW TO POST VIDEOS!

Man, can't the Western press get off the "Ukraine wants democracy and to get closer to the EU" theme? That's the only line they peddle and I'd argue it's only 1/3 of the story at best (even if the EU trade agreement was a catalyst of sorts). I'm sick of seeing their lame coverage and analysis (or lack thereof) and how they say the same sh*t every day.

Pretty scary that CNN, the BBC, Fox News etc. all seem to have zero insights into the country. It strikes me as very odd that the forum seems to know more about what's going on over there than a bunch of (supposed) professional journalists. I think I've learned more about the situation from this thread and my various internet conversations with the Ukraine ladies I"m talking to + word of mouth than from any of the mainstream media outlets. WTF?

Also, it doesn't take much 'analysis' from the supposed journalists to figure out that the EU pretty much gave Ukraine a raw deal and not a lot of money, whereas Russia was like "ok here's $15b". It's really not too hard to figure out that money talks given how easily all the Western powers cozy up to XYZ dictator or corrupt, kleptocratic Islamic oil state. Or that the Western half of the country is pissed due to the language/Russian issues they have, or that a lot of the rioting is probably 'piling on' as much as it is making a statement.

Finally, the HUGE elephant in the room that very few seem to be talking about is the fact that the [email protected] oligarchs pretty much de facto run the country. Nobody in the mainstream press is talking about that angle from what I've seen. Follow the money people it's not that hard. The corrupt oligarchs have ZERO incentive to 'open up the kimono' and disclose more of their and the country's doings that's for sure. They are fighting hard to keep the status quo given how much control they have and how much money they take out every year - why mess up the gravy train? More EU regulations, financial, social or otherwise, is definitely not what they want and would cramp their style. I guess at this point the situation is pretty out of hand bc the 'government' didn't handle it right, but I'm sure the financial powers that be are pretty circumspect re getting closer to the EU and "Western Standards" and they will increasingly have a lot more to say about it. Just my guess.

(02-01-2014 12:22 PM)michelin Wrote:  this is bad news for Bang Ukraine. I bought the book and now will have to wait another couple years to visit the place?

Honestly , I don't see myself daygaming these days on Independence Square...

Everyone I have spoken to says things are completely normal with the exception of the grivna becoming less valuable and some prices going up. You can easily avoid the violence even now, even when in Kiev.

If Yanukovich declares martial law things could get strained for Americans. My understanding is that there could be increased border control.

One could use a strategy that could turn these events into a boon for a man on the street. Lots of opportunities to connect with people with such dramatic events.

(02-01-2014 02:25 PM)Akula Wrote:  Man, can't the Western press get off the "Ukraine wants democracy and to get closer to the EU" theme? That's the only line they peddle and I'd argue it's only 1/3 of the story at best (even if the EU trade agreement was a catalyst of sorts). I'm sick of seeing their lame coverage and analysis (or lack thereof) and how they say the same sh*t every day.

Pretty scary that CNN, the BBC, Fox News etc. all seem to have zero insights into the country. It strikes me as very odd that the forum seems to know more about what's going on over there than a bunch of (supposed) professional journalists. I think I've learned more about the situation from this thread and my various internet conversations with the Ukraine ladies I"m talking to + word of mouth than from any of the mainstream media outlets. WTF?

Also, it doesn't take much 'analysis' from the supposed journalists to figure out that the EU pretty much gave Ukraine a raw deal and not a lot of money, whereas Russia was like "ok here's $15b". It's really not too hard to figure out that money talks given how easily all the Western powers cozy up to XYZ dictator or corrupt, kleptocratic Islamic oil state. Or that the Western half of the country is pissed due to the language/Russian issues they have, or that a lot of the rioting is probably 'piling on' as much as it is making a statement.

Finally, the HUGE elephant in the room that very few seem to be talking about is the fact that the [email protected] oligarchs pretty much de facto run the country. Nobody in the mainstream press is talking about that angle from what I've seen. Follow the money people it's not that hard. The corrupt oligarchs have ZERO incentive to 'open up the kimono' and disclose more of their and the country's doings that's for sure. They are fighting hard to keep the status quo given how much control they have and how much money they take out every year - why mess up the gravy train? More EU regulations, financial, social or otherwise, is definitely not what they want and would cramp their style. I guess at this point the situation is pretty out of hand bc the 'government' didn't handle it right, but I'm sure the financial powers that be are pretty circumspect re getting closer to the EU and "Western Standards" and they will increasingly have a lot more to say about it. Just my guess.

The oligarchs are interesting. Sure they financed Yanukovich but even Akmetov (the man behind Yanukovich) sent strong signals to Yanu to not crack down. They will stop supporting him if their fortunes are at risk.

From his company's site: “It is only by peaceful action that the political crisis can be resolved. … Any use of force and weapons is unacceptable,” he said in a notice put on his company’s website. “Business cannot keep silent when people are killed, a real danger of breakup of the country emerges, when a political crisis can lead to a deep economic recession and thus inevitably result in lower standards of living.”

I am pretty sure that this intervention is what stopped Yanukovich from escalating violence about a week ago. This is not a relationship of complete love. Yanukovich seemed to be trying to pull a Putin and take out the oligarchs and consolidate wealth in his family and trusted circle. (My hunch is that if he had cracked down, he would no longer be in power as it would have failed and turned against him, but a lot of people would be dead.)

I think a bunch of forces are power brokering now behind the scenes, almost Soviet style and Yanukovich went on sick leave, like a good outgoing Party Secretary. The people I think are waiting out the cold, but my hunch is that they are like a tightly would spring, ready to act.

This article has some insights and thoughts about what might happen.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/worl...e16647282/

Will the brokered solution be palatable to the protestors, to the people?

Yes western "journalists" are lost, lost, lost. Most are fresh out of college and runners being paid per article. I would argue some - the western regional Moscow-based correspondents - are colored by a Moscow lens. They do not understand Ukraine or what is going on.

(02-01-2014 02:25 PM)Akula Wrote:  Man, can't the Western press get off the "Ukraine wants democracy and to get closer to the EU" theme? That's the only line they peddle and I'd argue it's only 1/3 of the story at best (even if the EU trade agreement was a catalyst of sorts). I'm sick of seeing their lame coverage and analysis (or lack thereof) and how they say the same sh*t every day.

Pretty scary that CNN, the BBC, Fox News etc. all seem to have zero insights into the country. It strikes me as very odd that the forum seems to know more about what's going on over there than a bunch of (supposed) professional journalists. I think I've learned more about the situation from this thread and my various internet conversations with the Ukraine ladies I"m talking to + word of mouth than from any of the mainstream media outlets. WTF?

Also, it doesn't take much 'analysis' from the supposed journalists to figure out that the EU pretty much gave Ukraine a raw deal and not a lot of money, whereas Russia was like "ok here's $15b". It's really not too hard to figure out that money talks given how easily all the Western powers cozy up to XYZ dictator or corrupt, kleptocratic Islamic oil state. Or that the Western half of the country is pissed due to the language/Russian issues they have, or that a lot of the rioting is probably 'piling on' as much as it is making a statement.

Finally, the HUGE elephant in the room that very few seem to be talking about is the fact that the [email protected] oligarchs pretty much de facto run the country. Nobody in the mainstream press is talking about that angle from what I've seen. Follow the money people it's not that hard. The corrupt oligarchs have ZERO incentive to 'open up the kimono' and disclose more of their and the country's doings that's for sure. They are fighting hard to keep the status quo given how much control they have and how much money they take out every year - why mess up the gravy train? More EU regulations, financial, social or otherwise, is definitely not what they want and would cramp their style. I guess at this point the situation is pretty out of hand bc the 'government' didn't handle it right, but I'm sure the financial powers that be are pretty circumspect re getting closer to the EU and "Western Standards" and they will increasingly have a lot more to say about it. Just my guess.

Very insightful..its always about money. That's why EU wants Ukraine to join its ponzi scheme. Sorry guys..that's what it kind of is lol.

The Oligarchs I can't figure out to be honest...I am pretty sure they might be behind the reported kidnappings, if it is true. Of course the opposition could be lying..remember we are dealing with Neo Nazi extremists. That's another thing the Western press avoids.... the opposition is anti Jew and anti gay, feminism and all those EU values they are fighting for.
My wife even said she is shocked that thousands of hired hit man haven't come and cleared out the protesters. The oligarchs can support armies of hit man,thugs, etc.Unless they are using this time to send most of their money out of the country?
In any case Western Ukrainians seem to think that a trade agreement will let them work in EU...that's what they want. The high paying jobs in the East certainly will NOT be available to them after this movement. Funny considering Poles, Romanians and Bulgarians are even limited in leaving to find work and they are 100% EU members.