(04-23-2019 08:49 AM)Sp5 Wrote:  

(04-23-2019 07:04 AM)JayJuanGee Wrote:  Here's an interesting short little article from a few days ago about retired people not really knowing about bitcoin.

https://cointelegraph.com/news/3-of-amer...-is-survey

Personally, I doubt that it makes much difference about your age, because most people, young or old, have few clues about what the fuck bitcoin is, even if they may have heard the name. Young people might be willing to tak a bit more risk with their investment, based on their timeline, but older people will generally have a lot more money that they can invest (at least move around their various investments, even if the investmnt habits of Americans is likely to be subpar, as compared/contrasted with their inclination to consume... or gamble)

Fuck no I wouldn't put my retirement money into bitcoin.

Of course, where you invest and how much you allocate to various asset classes depends on a variety of factors. There are not too many people who suggest to invest high percentages of your quasi-liquid assets into bitcoin, and many recommend 10% at most to go into bitcoin; however, if you are a bit more bitcoin loving, you could go somewhat higher than that or if you are a bit bitcoin averse, then maybe you would apportion in the 1% or less arena.

If I read what you are saying correctly, it sounds to me that you are not even inclined to put 1% into bitcoin which would cause me to wonder if you really understand the non-correlation aspect of bitcoin and the upside potential, which causes bitcoin to be a decent hedge, even if you only feel comfortable with a 1% allocation.

(04-23-2019 08:49 AM)Sp5 Wrote:  Why would I do that when I can invest in known enterprises which have "assets" "sales" "known management" and "profits" which pay "dividends."

You would do it because at this point, bitcoin seems to be amongst the most-likely of all asset classes to be uncorrelated to various other asset classes.

Of course, it is up to you how you want to invest, but lack of correlation remains a very inspiring consideration for anyone who really attempts to understand the bitcoin space (and its contributions) rather than suggesting that it has little to no merit, which is what you seem to be doing.

(04-23-2019 08:49 AM)Sp5 Wrote:  If listed public companies deceive in their SEC filings, the management can go to jail, see Enron.

Hey, I am with you, Sp5, that there is likely a lot of wild, wild west with bitcoin, but not all aspects of bitcoin is wild, wild west, and increasingly, there are more and more traditional investment/financial mechanisms that are coming into to the bitcoin that continue to be evolving in their development and adoption. Of course, bitcoin is no where close to the development status of longer term asset classes, so like you suggest, any guy would likely want to moderate how he invests based on such differences and such ongoing developments in bitcoin. Part of bitcoin's considerable upside potential remains related to the fact that a lot of these investment vehicles are still being developed and adopted into bitcoin.

(04-23-2019 08:49 AM)Sp5 Wrote:  If bitcoin goes to zero, who could I sue? Satoshi Nakamoto? Yeah, exactly. Why the anonymity?
Nobody's accountable.

Nobody is accountable is a value-add and that is part of the reason that bitcoin is different from other asset classes and some of the differing dynamics that bitcoin brings to the party. Of course, you would likely not want all of the world to be decentralized, so no one is saying that you should invest into bitcoin as if it were taking over all aspects of the world, because it is not.. At least not yet, and even if those kinds of claims are being made (and there are reasonable arguments in that direction), hardly anyone expects the world to transition and transform overnight into a bitcoin dominated world. That's part of the reason why you only invest reasonably small percentages into it rather jumping in whole hog.... which again seems to be what you are suggesting how guys are thinking about bitcoin, which is not the case.

(04-23-2019 08:49 AM)Sp5 Wrote:  Bitcoin and all the shitcoins could be the biggest Ponzi in history.

Please don't get bitcoin mixed up with other crypto currencies, because even though some of the other crypto projects, ICOs and altcoins are trying to innovate or to pump their shit based on various bitcoin contributions, those other projects are not necessarily adding the same kinds of values that bitcoin has added and continues to add. Surely, some of them might become successful, I certainly am not making suggestions that any guy put anything into other cryptos beyond perhaps 1-5% of the value that he puts into bitcoin. In other words, think about bitcoin first before getting distracted by that other shit.

Regarding, any kind of Ponzi scheme claim that you are making, there are probably a decent amount of altcoins or ICOs or other crypto projects that might fit into that category, and those kinds of Ponzi scheme criticisms do not fit at all for bitcoin, unless you happen to NOT understand bitcoin and you are not able to understand what distinguishes bitcoin from either a Ponzi scheme or from various other crypto projects.

(04-23-2019 08:49 AM)Sp5 Wrote:  It could even be a psyop designed to crush all resistance to neoliberal monetary policy from libertarian Ayn Rand nerdbros.

Could be, but I doubt it. With anything that you do, you have to attempt to become a bit educated about what you are doing, and your claims about some kind of psyop conspiracy comes off as both overly exaggerated and ill-informed regarding various specifics about bitcoin, including it's open code source approach. In that regard, I am not getting where you are coming up with your psyop conspiracy considerations unless you are just taking those from some kinds of ill-informed sources that are spouting out ideas that they either do not understand or that they are just trying to spread misinformation while acting like they know what they are talking about... also known as spreading FUD.

(04-23-2019 08:49 AM)Sp5 Wrote:  Every aspect of bitcoin and shitcoin seems diabolically designed to suck nerdbros in, including the cool blockchain idea and the waste-of-energy "mining" shit.

You are lumping bitcoin and altcoins again, which shows your own fuzzy logic and fuzzy understanding about what differentiates bitcoin. Seems that I already addressed some of these assertions, above, but , in any event you don't seem to be making any kind of meaningful claims in this regard.

Regarding sucking in nerdbros: yes, in bitcoin, there has been greater appeal to technically expert computer geek folks, and so those kinds of folks tend to be amongst the first adopters. You do not have to be a technical nerd to begin to understand aspects of bitcoin, and you don't even have to understand all aspects of bitcoin in order to sufficiently understand it to be a good investment.

(04-23-2019 08:49 AM)Sp5 Wrote:  I don't see the underlying value, other than speculation and mystical faith.

Yes, you made that clear. In any event, let me provide you one of the many use cases, which is an ability to transfer value almost any place on the planet without having to ask for permission and in almost an instant manner. You consider that valuable? How else are you going to do that, especially large amounts? Gold? Good luck with that.

There are a lot of other use cases that relate to the one that I just mentioned, which involves permissionless control over your value, and RVF guys should be able to appreciate those kinds of concepts.

(04-23-2019 08:49 AM)Sp5 Wrote:  I might be wrong, but can you prove I'm wrong?

None of us needs to prove you wrong. You can choose what you want to do yourself, including how you want to invest or how you want to think about a topic, including whether bitcoin brings any value to the world or to yourself in your particular circumstances.

(04-23-2019 10:36 AM)Swordfish1010 Wrote:  

(04-23-2019 07:04 AM)JayJuanGee Wrote:  Here's an interesting short little article from a few days ago about retired people not really knowing about bitcoin.

https://cointelegraph.com/news/3-of-amer...-is-survey

Personally, I doubt that it makes much difference about your age, because most people, young or old, have few clues about what the fuck bitcoin is, even if they may have heard the name. Young people might be willing to tak a bit more risk with their investment, based on their timeline, but older people will generally have a lot more money that they can invest (at least move around their various investments, even if the investmnt habits of Americans is likely to be subpar, as compared/contrasted with their inclination to consume... or gamble)

Young people went through their pivotal years during the 2008 crisis. We don't trust banks. Most of us are poor though so it doesn't really matter, we don't have the capital to really do much.

Of course, there are some differing considerations for younger guys as compared with older guys, including timeline and even the extent guys of differing ages are going to already established investments, yet no matter how you consider your circumstances, I don't really find it helpful to consider these kinds of matters in terms of age - as if there were some kind of common bond that exists between young guys that might not also exist in some degree with older guys.

I will admit that when I was in my 20s and 30s, I did kind of hold some feelings of immortality that kind of disappeared in about my mid-40s, but that still is just a timeline thing - and each guy is going to have to consider his own particulars - and you could still be old and feel screwed by the system or feel as if you are just starting with your finances based on whatever personal circumstances that you have, so I still don't find age to be a useful framework, unless we are trying to tailor it for individual circumstances, which is what each guy should be doing, anyhow, when it comes down to figuring out how to invest, including how much to invest, whether he is going to aim for certain time targets and how to apportion is investments (and whether traditional investments will play any part in his allocations, including things like real estate).

I was reading Wall Street Journal today at a Starbucks.

There was no article written about cryptocurrency.

Just a whole bunch of articles about Venezuela, Columbian currency weakening, and Japanese currency being the third most used currency after dollars and euros.

That was the closest articles to cryptocurrency. Other countries' currencies and their macroeconomic trends.

I looked at the Starbucks workers if they would know that people will start paying with bitcoin in the near future.
I also looked around at the customers who were studying, talking on the phone, or just sitting on a chair reading something oblivious to a huge disruption that is about to come in the near future...

Maybe this is how Michael Burry felt when he was forecasting the 2008 financial collapse...

Maybe in about two years, there will be some articles on the front page of WSJ about bitcoin and ATH prices.

It's cool if some people do not want to invest in cryptocurrency, but the fact is that I am up 35% at the moment for this year alone. I wouldn't have imagined such profit from RE or stocks.
I mean the general advice is, "Invest in what you know." right?

(04-23-2019 01:53 PM)bgbusiness Wrote:  I mean the general advice is, "Invest in what you know." right?

When I started investing in bitcoin in late 2013, I only knew a little, from reading this thread and a few other pieces of information that I read around that time.

I started to dollar cost average into bitcoin, and I gave myself a 6 month window to learn, and then at the end of the first 6 months, I extended that period an additional 6 months, while continuing to dollar cost average invest. By the end of that first year, I began to believe that I had a pretty decent understanding of bitcoin and reasons to continue to invest, and I also felt that I had established a decent stake in bitcoin.

For me (and it seems that the same is true for a lot of longer term bitcoin investors) , learning about Bitcoin did not end after that first year, and 5 years later, I continue to find a lot of fascinating aspects, including ongoing changes in the space, including development, adoption and even sorting through the ongoing attacks and FUD spreading. There is no dull day in bitcoin, even though some periods of time and happenings in the space are more exciting than others.

https://docsend.com/view/jwr8qwx

This was an interesting read by Adamant Capital.

Most important point that I got out of this report was that millennials prefer investing in cryptocurrency rather than fiat and therefore, the price of bitcoin will go up as the millennials' income goes up as they age.

(04-23-2019 08:49 AM)Sp5 Wrote:  

(04-23-2019 07:04 AM)JayJuanGee Wrote:  Here's an interesting short little article from a few days ago about retired people not really knowing about bitcoin.

https://cointelegraph.com/news/3-of-amer...-is-survey

Personally, I doubt that it makes much difference about your age, because most people, young or old, have few clues about what the fuck bitcoin is, even if they may have heard the name. Young people might be willing to tak a bit more risk with their investment, based on their timeline, but older people will generally have a lot more money that they can invest (at least move around their various investments, even if the investmnt habits of Americans is likely to be subpar, as compared/contrasted with their inclination to consume... or gamble)

Fuck no I wouldn't put my retirement money into bitcoin.

Why would I do that when I can invest in known enterprises which have "assets" "sales" "known management" and "profits" which pay "dividends."

If listed public companies deceive in their SEC filings, the management can go to jail, see Enron.

If bitcoin goes to zero, who could I sue? Satoshi Nakamoto? Yeah, exactly. Why the anonymity?
Nobody's accountable.

Bitcoin and all the shitcoins could be the biggest Ponzi in history.

It could even be a psyop designed to crush all resistance to neoliberal monetary policy from libertarian Ayn Rand nerdbros.

Every aspect of bitcoin and shitcoin seems diabolically designed to suck nerdbros in, including the cool blockchain idea and the waste-of-energy "mining" shit.

I don't see the underlying value, other than speculation and mystical faith.

I might be wrong, but can you prove I'm wrong?

I bought a bunch of gold 15 years ago; made 400%. A friend of mine understood the diamond market; did the same there. Another friend bought and sold rare wines; made a fortune.

Bitcoin's the exact same play. It's a collectible. It's not a stock or a company; that's not the point.

(04-23-2019 06:54 PM)MrLemon Wrote:  

(04-23-2019 08:49 AM)Sp5 Wrote:  

(04-23-2019 07:04 AM)JayJuanGee Wrote:  Here's an interesting short little article from a few days ago about retired people not really knowing about bitcoin.

https://cointelegraph.com/news/3-of-amer...-is-survey

Personally, I doubt that it makes much difference about your age, because most people, young or old, have few clues about what the fuck bitcoin is, even if they may have heard the name. Young people might be willing to tak a bit more risk with their investment, based on their timeline, but older people will generally have a lot more money that they can invest (at least move around their various investments, even if the investmnt habits of Americans is likely to be subpar, as compared/contrasted with their inclination to consume... or gamble)

Fuck no I wouldn't put my retirement money into bitcoin.

Why would I do that when I can invest in known enterprises which have "assets" "sales" "known management" and "profits" which pay "dividends."

If listed public companies deceive in their SEC filings, the management can go to jail, see Enron.

If bitcoin goes to zero, who could I sue? Satoshi Nakamoto? Yeah, exactly. Why the anonymity?
Nobody's accountable.

Bitcoin and all the shitcoins could be the biggest Ponzi in history.

It could even be a psyop designed to crush all resistance to neoliberal monetary policy from libertarian Ayn Rand nerdbros.

Every aspect of bitcoin and shitcoin seems diabolically designed to suck nerdbros in, including the cool blockchain idea and the waste-of-energy "mining" shit.

I don't see the underlying value, other than speculation and mystical faith.

I might be wrong, but can you prove I'm wrong?

I bought a bunch of gold 15 years ago; made 400%. A friend of mine understood the diamond market; did the same there. Another friend bought and sold rare wines; made a fortune.

Bitcoin's the exact same play. It's a collectible. It's not a stock or a company; that's not the point.

You can do what you like MrLemon, but I, certainly, do not think of bitcoin like a collectible, except there is a scarcity element to bitcoin.

I think of bitcoin as different from those various items, that you listed, because it is a paradigm shifting technology that creates the soundest of money that the world has ever seen - and has accomplished such sound money in such a digital way that allows individuals to opt for having complete and unfettered control over the value that they hold in bitcoin.

Of course, bitcoin will still have value, even if you allow others to manage and control your private keys, but the most powerful part of bitcoin remains an ability to take possession of your private keys to make sure that you have what you are supposed to have, in any kind of event that third parties might try to inflate the value of bitcoin (which of course they have already attempted such shenanigans and are going to likely attempt such shenanigans again in the future), but paper bitcoin becomes different from paper gold because it is way the fuck easier to demand delivery - and therefore to give more value to those bitcoins that you have an ability to directly control.

We are likely going to witness some additional interesting times in the future, when financial institutions find out that they are having much more difficulties attempting to inflate bitcoin away or to play paper bitcoin shenanigans, and people have the power to either demand their private keys or to merely hold their bitcoin value in ways that ensure that 3rd parties are not attempting to print fake ones.

(04-23-2019 10:13 PM)JayJuanGee Wrote:  

(04-23-2019 06:54 PM)MrLemon Wrote:  

(04-23-2019 08:49 AM)Sp5 Wrote:  

(04-23-2019 07:04 AM)JayJuanGee Wrote:  Here's an interesting short little article from a few days ago about retired people not really knowing about bitcoin.

https://cointelegraph.com/news/3-of-amer...-is-survey

Personally, I doubt that it makes much difference about your age, because most people, young or old, have few clues about what the fuck bitcoin is, even if they may have heard the name. Young people might be willing to tak a bit more risk with their investment, based on their timeline, but older people will generally have a lot more money that they can invest (at least move around their various investments, even if the investmnt habits of Americans is likely to be subpar, as compared/contrasted with their inclination to consume... or gamble)

Fuck no I wouldn't put my retirement money into bitcoin.

Why would I do that when I can invest in known enterprises which have "assets" "sales" "known management" and "profits" which pay "dividends."

If listed public companies deceive in their SEC filings, the management can go to jail, see Enron.

If bitcoin goes to zero, who could I sue? Satoshi Nakamoto? Yeah, exactly. Why the anonymity?
Nobody's accountable.

Bitcoin and all the shitcoins could be the biggest Ponzi in history.

It could even be a psyop designed to crush all resistance to neoliberal monetary policy from libertarian Ayn Rand nerdbros.

Every aspect of bitcoin and shitcoin seems diabolically designed to suck nerdbros in, including the cool blockchain idea and the waste-of-energy "mining" shit.

I don't see the underlying value, other than speculation and mystical faith.

I might be wrong, but can you prove I'm wrong?

I bought a bunch of gold 15 years ago; made 400%. A friend of mine understood the diamond market; did the same there. Another friend bought and sold rare wines; made a fortune.

Bitcoin's the exact same play. It's a collectible. It's not a stock or a company; that's not the point.

You can do what you like MrLemon, but I, certainly, do not think of bitcoin like a collectible, except there is a scarcity element to bitcoin.

I think of bitcoin as different from those various items, that you listed, because it is a paradigm shifting technology that creates the soundest of money that the world has ever seen - and has accomplished such sound money in such a digital way that allows individuals to opt for having complete and unfettered control over the value that they hold in bitcoin.

Of course, bitcoin will still have value, even if you allow others to manage and control your private keys, but the most powerful part of bitcoin remains an ability to take possession of your private keys to make sure that you have what you are supposed to have, in any kind of event that third parties might try to inflate the value of bitcoin (which of course they have already attempted such shenanigans and are going to likely attempt such shenanigans again in the future), but paper bitcoin becomes different from paper gold because it is way the fuck easier to demand delivery - and therefore to give more value to those bitcoins that you have an ability to directly control.

We are likely going to witness some additional interesting times in the future, when financial institutions find out that they are having much more difficulties attempting to inflate bitcoin away or to play paper bitcoin shenanigans, and people have the power to either demand their private keys or to merely hold their bitcoin value in ways that ensure that 3rd parties are not attempting to print fake ones.

I think it's a store of value, like Gold. It has many other technical functions, that's true, but those aren't the main thing driving it right now. The thing driving it is it's acceptance as "digital gold".

This is similar in some ways to Platinum...it is a store of value also, but it also has significant industrial and chemical uses which can also provide support. Sometimes Platinum's value is higher than it's industrial price, sometime it is the same. If you are going to invest in Platinum you'd better understand when those deviations happen. Same with Bitcoin now. My opinion only.

(04-23-2019 01:41 PM)JayJuanGee Wrote:  

(04-23-2019 08:49 AM)Sp5 Wrote:  

(04-23-2019 07:04 AM)JayJuanGee Wrote:  Here's an interesting short little article from a few days ago about retired people not really knowing about bitcoin.

https://cointelegraph.com/news/3-of-amer...-is-survey

Personally, I doubt that it makes much difference about your age, because most people, young or old, have few clues about what the fuck bitcoin is, even if they may have heard the name. Young people might be willing to tak a bit more risk with their investment, based on their timeline, but older people will generally have a lot more money that they can invest (at least move around their various investments, even if the investmnt habits of Americans is likely to be subpar, as compared/contrasted with their inclination to consume... or gamble)

Fuck no I wouldn't put my retirement money into bitcoin.

Of course, where you invest and how much you allocate to various asset classes depends on a variety of factors. There are not too many people who suggest to invest high percentages of your quasi-liquid assets into bitcoin, and many recommend 10% at most to go into bitcoin; however, if you are a bit more bitcoin loving, you could go somewhat higher than that or if you are a bit bitcoin averse, then maybe you would apportion in the 1% or less arena.

If I read what you are saying correctly, it sounds to me that you are not even inclined to put 1% into bitcoin which would cause me to wonder if you really understand the non-correlation aspect of bitcoin and the upside potential, which causes bitcoin to be a decent hedge, even if you only feel comfortable with a 1% allocation.

(04-23-2019 08:49 AM)Sp5 Wrote:  Why would I do that when I can invest in known enterprises which have "assets" "sales" "known management" and "profits" which pay "dividends."

You would do it because at this point, bitcoin seems to be amongst the most-likely of all asset classes to be uncorrelated to various other asset classes.

Of course, it is up to you how you want to invest, but lack of correlation remains a very inspiring consideration for anyone who really attempts to understand the bitcoin space (and its contributions) rather than suggesting that it has little to no merit, which is what you seem to be doing.

(04-23-2019 08:49 AM)Sp5 Wrote:  If listed public companies deceive in their SEC filings, the management can go to jail, see Enron.

Hey, I am with you, Sp5, that there is likely a lot of wild, wild west with bitcoin, but not all aspects of bitcoin is wild, wild west, and increasingly, there are more and more traditional investment/financial mechanisms that are coming into to the bitcoin that continue to be evolving in their development and adoption. Of course, bitcoin is no where close to the development status of longer term asset classes, so like you suggest, any guy would likely want to moderate how he invests based on such differences and such ongoing developments in bitcoin. Part of bitcoin's considerable upside potential remains related to the fact that a lot of these investment vehicles are still being developed and adopted into bitcoin.

(04-23-2019 08:49 AM)Sp5 Wrote:  If bitcoin goes to zero, who could I sue? Satoshi Nakamoto? Yeah, exactly. Why the anonymity?
Nobody's accountable.

Nobody is accountable is a value-add and that is part of the reason that bitcoin is different from other asset classes and some of the differing dynamics that bitcoin brings to the party. Of course, you would likely not want all of the world to be decentralized, so no one is saying that you should invest into bitcoin as if it were taking over all aspects of the world, because it is not.. At least not yet, and even if those kinds of claims are being made (and there are reasonable arguments in that direction), hardly anyone expects the world to transition and transform overnight into a bitcoin dominated world. That's part of the reason why you only invest reasonably small percentages into it rather jumping in whole hog.... which again seems to be what you are suggesting how guys are thinking about bitcoin, which is not the case.

(04-23-2019 08:49 AM)Sp5 Wrote:  Bitcoin and all the shitcoins could be the biggest Ponzi in history.

Please don't get bitcoin mixed up with other crypto currencies, because even though some of the other crypto projects, ICOs and altcoins are trying to innovate or to pump their shit based on various bitcoin contributions, those other projects are not necessarily adding the same kinds of values that bitcoin has added and continues to add. Surely, some of them might become successful, I certainly am not making suggestions that any guy put anything into other cryptos beyond perhaps 1-5% of the value that he puts into bitcoin. In other words, think about bitcoin first before getting distracted by that other shit.

Regarding, any kind of Ponzi scheme claim that you are making, there are probably a decent amount of altcoins or ICOs or other crypto projects that might fit into that category, and those kinds of Ponzi scheme criticisms do not fit at all for bitcoin, unless you happen to NOT understand bitcoin and you are not able to understand what distinguishes bitcoin from either a Ponzi scheme or from various other crypto projects.

(04-23-2019 08:49 AM)Sp5 Wrote:  It could even be a psyop designed to crush all resistance to neoliberal monetary policy from libertarian Ayn Rand nerdbros.

Could be, but I doubt it. With anything that you do, you have to attempt to become a bit educated about what you are doing, and your claims about some kind of psyop conspiracy comes off as both overly exaggerated and ill-informed regarding various specifics about bitcoin, including it's open code source approach. In that regard, I am not getting where you are coming up with your psyop conspiracy considerations unless you are just taking those from some kinds of ill-informed sources that are spouting out ideas that they either do not understand or that they are just trying to spread misinformation while acting like they know what they are talking about... also known as spreading FUD.

(04-23-2019 08:49 AM)Sp5 Wrote:  Every aspect of bitcoin and shitcoin seems diabolically designed to suck nerdbros in, including the cool blockchain idea and the waste-of-energy "mining" shit.

You are lumping bitcoin and altcoins again, which shows your own fuzzy logic and fuzzy understanding about what differentiates bitcoin. Seems that I already addressed some of these assertions, above, but , in any event you don't seem to be making any kind of meaningful claims in this regard.

Regarding sucking in nerdbros: yes, in bitcoin, there has been greater appeal to technically expert computer geek folks, and so those kinds of folks tend to be amongst the first adopters. You do not have to be a technical nerd to begin to understand aspects of bitcoin, and you don't even have to understand all aspects of bitcoin in order to sufficiently understand it to be a good investment.

(04-23-2019 08:49 AM)Sp5 Wrote:  I don't see the underlying value, other than speculation and mystical faith.

Yes, you made that clear. In any event, let me provide you one of the many use cases, which is an ability to transfer value almost any place on the planet without having to ask for permission and in almost an instant manner. You consider that valuable? How else are you going to do that, especially large amounts? Gold? Good luck with that.

There are a lot of other use cases that relate to the one that I just mentioned, which involves permissionless control over your value, and RVF guys should be able to appreciate those kinds of concepts.

(04-23-2019 08:49 AM)Sp5 Wrote:  I might be wrong, but can you prove I'm wrong?

None of us needs to prove you wrong. You can choose what you want to do yourself, including how you want to invest or how you want to think about a topic, including whether bitcoin brings any value to the world or to yourself in your particular circumstances.

Thanks for the engagement and counterargument.

I have thought about buying some, but purely as speculation or as a lottery ticket.

I remain skeptical and concerned about eventual state shutdown (China has been mentioned) for either securities law reasons, protection of seigniorage power, blaming it for money laundering / black markets, or energy consumption reasons.

There also seems to be more caveat emptor due diligence involved in buying and also the private key safeguarding process. Stories of buyers getting scammed, demands for fees for private keys, Mt. Gox, guy losing his device and losing his bitcoins. The complexity and risk involved would be a perversely attractive feature for some people.

Bitcoin is not like gold, which has a rare physical presence, is an ancient traditional store of value held by central banks, and has practical uses industrially and as jewelry.

I'm not going to dwell on it, though: to each his own investment and level of risk.

(04-24-2019 05:07 AM)Sp5 Wrote:  Thanks for the engagement and counterargument.

I have thought about buying some, but purely as speculation or as a lottery ticket.

I remain skeptical and concerned about eventual state shutdown (China has been mentioned) for either securities law reasons, protection of seigniorage power, blaming it for money laundering / black markets, or energy consumption reasons.

In regards to bitcoin, states are in a bit of a dilemma here. One of the powerful aspects of bitcoin is that it has been designed around any party's ability to control it, whether that be states, large financial institutions and/or powerful individuals. That is another aspect that distinguishes bitcoin from any other crypto project that has various central points of failure.

Sure various states could ban together and take an aggressive stance towards bitcoin, and some of them have made such attempts. Such aggressive stances towards bitcoin would likely cause the price to go down, and thereafter push bitcoin more underground. I don't put such tactics past states, but it would be a mess, and bitcoin would not go away in such scenarios - including the fact that some states that are more bitcoin friendly might cause bitcoin to go up in price while others are trying to suppress it, and like I mentioned, bitcoin has been designed in anticipation of such attacks and that is why there are nodes and miners all over the world, and even various non-internet means of confirming transactions. All you need is two computers for bitcoin to function, and part of the reason that bitcoin's computing power outpaces any computing system in the world by magnitudes.

In other words, fears of bitcoin being shut down seem unrealistic, even while there could be some likely fruitless wheel spinning government attacks in the coming years that are likely to fall on their faces.

(04-24-2019 05:07 AM)Sp5 Wrote:  There also seems to be more caveat emptor due diligence involved in buying and also the private key safeguarding process. Stories of buyers getting scammed, demands for fees for private keys, Mt. Gox, guy losing his device and losing his bitcoins. The complexity and risk involved would be a perversely attractive feature for some people.

For sure, being your own bank can take a whole hell of a lot of learning, and even I do not claim to understand various aspects of it.. including the various kinds of responsibilities and safeguards.

Of course, if you only own a small amount of bitcoin, you might take the risk of allowing some third parties to hold your bitcoin (and MTGOX was a third party, by the way), but you may also decide to hold the vast majority of your own private keys through a hardware wallet or something like that is fairly user-friendly - I recommend Trezor, but some folks are o.k. with Ledger, too.

Just like there are risks of holding and securing large amounts of gold, there are risks with holding and securing bitcoin too that take some learning that is different from gold, but also bitcoin seems to be much more powerful than gold, once you can wrap you brain around some of the possible use cases, which includes "fuck you" levels of portability.

(04-24-2019 05:07 AM)Sp5 Wrote:  Bitcoin is not like gold, which has a rare physical presence, is an ancient traditional store of value held by central banks, and has practical uses industrially and as jewelry.

So what regarding the various use industrial use cases of gold? Bitcoin is like gold in some ways and not like gold in other ways, and maybe you do want to hold some of your value in gold. Personally, I consider Bitcoin to be superior to gold in terms of its monetary soundness. Actually, gold is likely to be more manipulated than bitcoin because of difficulties to verify, transport or divide, which also include paper manipulation and inabilities and expenses to take actual possession. Surely, I would question gold's long term ability to out price perform bitcoin. Try moving or storing $1million or $1billion in gold as compared with bitcoin. Easy peasy with bitcoin once you learn about some of the more efficient and effective ways to store and back up your private keys in bitcoin.

(04-24-2019 05:07 AM)Sp5 Wrote:  I'm not going to dwell on it, though: to each his own investment and level of risk.

Well, yeah, a lot of people are not dwelling on owning bitcoin, and that is why we still have less than 1% of the world's population invested in any kind of meaningful way in bitcoin. Lack of adoption could be a sign of future growth or a sign that bitcoin is dying on the vine. I have been watching the space for about 5 and a half years, and the evidence is far from bitcoin dying on the vine rather than becoming more and more a more developed, robust and brute force. It is both very exciting to have a stake in bitcoin, and those guys who take measures to set up various accounts to give themselves options to buy and sell are going to be in a whole hell-of-a lot stronger place when the next boom comes. Sometimes when the boom comes, you cannot even get bitcoin if you were to want to get it, and I doubt that the next time is going to be any different - meaning that those who already have set up accounts are going to be in a much better place to profit from the next boom - which is likely coming in the next year or two...

While older boomers are clueless with tech I'm sure the people managing their money will probably be allocating 1% of the portfolio towards Bitcoin. If not already, very soon. Experienced funds will probably buy the major altcoins like ETH, XRP and others.

I can see the money coming back in once the price hits the psychological marks of 10k and again at 20k. When I first came to rvf I was astonished that the price was $600. I heard about it in 2010 when it was selling under $1 and I scoffed at it. I thought at $600 surely it had topped but it defied my imagination again by going to 3k in a short time. At the time I had money to invest and was actively looking for something to risk it with. I imagine that most people are absolutely terrified at the prospect of throwing serious money on "digital internet money" especially at 4 digit prices. This is why alts are important. The average person rather take on additional risk and buy 30¢ XRP or 7¢ ADA than go all in on a fraction of BTC. It all works out in the end because alts are inevitably sold off for BTC and this raises the price leading to a positive feedback loop in which people buy Bitcoin as it moons to new heights.

Unlike jayjuanjee I will say that the next 2-3 months is an optimal time to get into bitcoin as there is a strong chance you will double your money (possibly more) before May 2020. I recall also saying Litecoin price would go up for similar reasons when it was $30. The people that listened to me profited. If anyone here can name me an investment when I can double my money with a high degree of certainty in a short time frame of less than a year I'd really like to hear it.

(04-24-2019 10:20 AM)[email protected] Wrote:  Unlike jayjuanjee I will say that the next 2-3 months is an optimal time to get into bitcoin as there is a strong chance you will double your money (possibly more) before May 2020. I recall also saying Litecoin price would go up for similar reasons when it was $30. The people that listened to me profited. If anyone here can name me an investment when I can double my money with a high degree of certainty in a short time frame of less than a year I'd really like to hear it.

Fair enough that you mention the May 2020 halvening, yet would you not expect real upsurge in BTC prices to come after May 2020, rather than before May 2020?

BTC prices might not even be consistently above $12k by the time we reach May 2020.

Anyhow, even though I hate to commit to any BTC price predictions, there are decent odds that BTC prices will again make new ATHs in the coming 1 to 5 years, and ATHs have decent chances to bring BTC prices into a $30k to $750k range. Of course, there are differing probabilities assigned depending on time and amount, but even taken a more conservative view of BTC hitting $30k in 5 years (and perhaps with a lot of UPs and DOWNs along the way), that would still be more than 5x returns in 5 years, and even if there are no guarantees, and we are merely referring to probabilities, taking some kind of BTC stake seems to be a prudent move, even if you are only investing as low as 1% which seems quite conservative in my view, but any guy who has any kind of clue about bitcoin should be able to manage establishing a 1% allocation in the coming months.

Most people are taking the view that history will rhyme and you'll see the price go to 50-60% of the last ATH of 20k which is 10-12k right before the halvening.

Another school of thought says the anticipation of the halvening will cause the price to go up several months before the actual event, meaning people will be buying it up 5-6 months prior. Some even think this anticipation will cause a buying frenzy that will result in 20k price before the halvening similar to how people raid the grocery store supplies before a natural disaster. I thought this idea was far fetched but interesting.

We have Peter Brandt with some wishful projections for early 2020: https://mobile.twitter.com/PeterLBrandt/...36/photo/1

What if the miners all decide it's not worth having these halvening anymore and decide against it? I don't think this is happening in 2020 but might be something to think about for future halvenings. At some point these miners are going to quit mining because of how expensive it is.

Below is an article about a secret meeting between Trump and Jack Dorsey.

I understand that Trump is more interested in the Twitter side of Dorsey's businesses, but I wonder if Jack did not drop some Bitcoin or lightning knowledge upon Trump's sometimes deaf (focused) ears.

I recall during the first Joe Rogan interview with Dorsey, this year, Joe continued to focus the conversation on Twitter, and Jack kept dropping information regarding how he believed that bitcoin played a fairly central role in how Dorsey considered the future to be progressing.

https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2019-04-2...val-office

Bitcoin's confirmed transactions are continuing to go up.

https://www.longhash.com/news/bitcoins-c...run-levels

(04-24-2019 10:20 AM)[email protected] Wrote:  While older boomers are clueless with tech I'm sure the people managing their money will probably be allocating 1% of the portfolio towards Bitcoin. If not already, very soon. Experienced funds will probably buy the major altcoins like ETH, XRP and others.

The "higher up" people I talk with want nothing to do with altcoins.

It's Bitcoin or bust.

(04-25-2019 04:59 PM)redbeard Wrote:  

(04-24-2019 10:20 AM)[email protected] Wrote:  While older boomers are clueless with tech I'm sure the people managing their money will probably be allocating 1% of the portfolio towards Bitcoin. If not already, very soon. Experienced funds will probably buy the major altcoins like ETH, XRP and others.

The "higher up" people I talk with want nothing to do with altcoins.

It's Bitcoin or bust.

Yes. That seems an emerging consensus.

One thing that you learn over time is...Bitcoin isn't just a coin. It is the preferred Internet standard. Think .mp4 or HTML. HTML doesn't have any competitors and probably never will. When you understand how standards committees work, then you understand why. If Bitcoin continues maintaining it's status as the premier standard, inevitably the other coins will be subsumed or fall away.

(04-25-2019 06:51 PM)MrLemon Wrote:  

(04-25-2019 04:59 PM)redbeard Wrote:  

(04-24-2019 10:20 AM)[email protected] Wrote:  While older boomers are clueless with tech I'm sure the people managing their money will probably be allocating 1% of the portfolio towards Bitcoin. If not already, very soon. Experienced funds will probably buy the major altcoins like ETH, XRP and others.

The "higher up" people I talk with want nothing to do with altcoins.

It's Bitcoin or bust.

Yes. That seems an emerging consensus.

One thing that you learn over time is...Bitcoin isn't just a coin. It is the preferred Internet standard. Think .mp4 or HTML. HTML doesn't have any competitors and probably never will. When you understand how standards committees work, then you understand why. If Bitcoin continues maintaining it's status as the premier standard, inevitably the other coins will be subsumed or fall away.

Zero To One ™

(04-25-2019 06:51 PM)MrLemon Wrote:  

(04-25-2019 04:59 PM)redbeard Wrote:  

(04-24-2019 10:20 AM)[email protected] Wrote:  While older boomers are clueless with tech I'm sure the people managing their money will probably be allocating 1% of the portfolio towards Bitcoin. If not already, very soon. Experienced funds will probably buy the major altcoins like ETH, XRP and others.

The "higher up" people I talk with want nothing to do with altcoins.

It's Bitcoin or bust.

Yes. That seems an emerging consensus.

One thing that you learn over time is...Bitcoin isn't just a coin. It is the preferred Internet standard. Think .mp4 or HTML. HTML doesn't have any competitors and probably never will. When you understand how standards committees work, then you understand why. If Bitcoin continues maintaining it's status as the premier standard, inevitably the other coins will be subsumed or fall away.

Bitcoin is a protocol, not a product. That’s what people don’t seem to grasp. It’s like tcp/ip winning versus osi for the internet.

(04-25-2019 04:59 PM)redbeard Wrote:  

(04-24-2019 10:20 AM)[email protected] Wrote:  While older boomers are clueless with tech I'm sure the people managing their money will probably be allocating 1% of the portfolio towards Bitcoin. If not already, very soon. Experienced funds will probably buy the major altcoins like ETH, XRP and others.

The "higher up" people I talk with want nothing to do with altcoins.

It's Bitcoin or bust.

Most smart people who have been in this scene for a while are bitcoin maximalists for a reason. You can still probably get some short term gains in alts but bitcoin will be the long term winner and is way ahead of everyone else.

Looks like some more liquidity is being planned for Bitcoin (and ethereum) through e-trade.

https://cryptoslate.com/major-exchange-e...ion-users/


We know how these things go, sometimes, - meaning that they do not happen. In other words, I did not see a launch date described in the article.

Here's a brief, 3 minute video, that puts a decent definition on bitcoin.

If Tether collapses I hope you are all prepared to buy the blood and wait for the storm to end.

Think 2009 real estate market.

Yes, the crypto market will take a hit, but Bitcoin doesn't need Tether, Binance, or anyone else to survive. The shitcoins, on the other hand? Might not make it.

(04-29-2019 08:56 PM)redbeard Wrote:  If Tether collapses I hope you are all prepared to buy the blood and wait for the storm to end.

Think 2009 real estate market.

Yes, the crypto market will take a hit, but Bitcoin doesn't need Tether, Binance, or anyone else to survive. The shitcoins, on the other hand? Might not make it.

I agree with everything that you say, but I doubt that the odds of Tether failing to be much lower than what is being bandied about. Just my sense that it's calamity is both over-hyped, and sure tether is being attacked too, mostly based on how effective it is... so attempt to steal $800 million from them, and see if that assists to cause them to collapse.

I am pretty sure that a fall of Tether will just give a boost at the market.
The stable coin market is already pretty much diversified nowadays, long gone are days where Tether accounted for 99% of stable coins trading...
Scared people will just sell Tether to buy bitcoin making the price skyrocketing (like happened in October last year for a few days...).
Being catastrophic just one year before the halving? Madness...

I would be rather concerned about the bubble in the stock market driven by the free money provided by the central banks...in a age like this one, a wise investor should reduce the exposition in shares and increase crypto and precious metals holding.