(08-18-2015 04:06 AM)Hotwheels Wrote:  People will do the work when paid enough to make it worth their while. If the government pays them more to sit home they certainly are not going to go work out in a field under the hot sun.

Midwest's example simply reinforces the fact illegals depress wages and have for decades.

Here in WI the big dairy farms are screaming the same bullshit; "We'll go broke if we lose our illegals." No, you will have to hire WI farmboys at a decent wage to run your farms.

Landscape companies? Same thing.

Sorry, it may cost you a few bucks more to get your lawn mowed. That's the cost of having a secure country.

This plus 1 million. I don't know if people just don't understand because they have never worked in these jobs or managed people in them or dont' think the whole thing through but it is just stupid to think that Joe Plumber benefits from having illegal workers. The employer benefits.

Lets run the economics first An illegal immigrant worker does not pay payroll tax, his employer doesn't pay payroll tax and that illegal worker then uses tax funded services like schools, medicare etc. A legal worker pays taxes, and by virtue of having an income is excluded from the sweetest of public benefits. So in short, with the illegal workers, the TAXPAYER is subsidizing the taxes not paid, and the employer keeps the benefit on his balance sheet.

Lets run the idiotic statements of "but only illegals will do the job" second I have managed tree planting jobs in Canada and America, which is just brutal physical labor like picking crops. In Canada we used college students to do the work, paid them piece rate and made money as contractors. In America, the contractors charged more than we did in Canada, paid the illegal tree planters less and pocketed a much bigger margin, with the same cost to the corporate customer.

I also ran some other gov't run tree operations in Wisconsin where there was no way we could hire illegals, the job paid $1 more than minimum wage and we got all kinds of crazy toothless lunatics coming out to work that were all legal.

Last point, another Canadian example. During the Ontario apple harvest farmers use thousands of jamaican apple pickers that come to canada for the season on totally legal seasonal/temp labor visas and most of them leave at the end of harvest season. America also has legal temp labor/seasonal visa programs too, but people don't use them...because its totally OK to pick up day labor illegals vs. go through the work of doing it the right way.

There are solutions to an illegal workforce, and like any change it will be disruptive but the alternative of just ignoring your own countries law to have it continue is idiotic. Why have the laws at all then? Why not just fire all of the border patrol agents.

(08-18-2015 02:34 AM)Blick Mang Wrote:  Trumptrolled:



Boom, Trumptrolled!



Beyond the wit and humor, this is political genius. It's a two-fold strategy of watering down the more "insensitive" comments from the past with actual troll Tweets, while also focusing on concrete, specific policy proposals through his immigration paper. Most politicians either speak to the intellectual or the common man, one or the other; Trump rallies both.

That's not his actual Twitter account, by the way.

http://www.breitbart.com/video/2015/08/1...ng-in-gop/

Cuckservative threatens that there will be a "cleansing" of the GOP after Trump loses the primary.

Quote:ALEX CASTELLANOS: AFTER TRUMP LOSES, ‘THERE WILL BE A CLEANSING’ IN GOP

Purple Strategies Chairman and Founding Partner and Republican strategist Alex Castellanos criticized GOP presidential candidate Donald Trump’s immigration plan and said that after Trump loses in the primary “there will be a cleansing that’ll go on” in the GOP on Monday’s broadcast of CNN’s “AC360.”

Castellanos said, “let me just say, wow, even Republicans wouldn’t say that Barack Obama has been arrogant enough to rewrite the Constitution that way [to end birthright citizenship]. But, in a general election — look, right now, this hurts the Republican Party. If you think the Republican Party hasn’t alienated enough Hispanics, enough women, enough young voters, why, Donald Trump’s immigration plan is going to be great for you. You’re going to love that. In a general election though, Trump is not going to be the nominee. When he leaves, he’ll be defeated by an anti-Trump. So, there will be a cleansing that’ll go on, in the — once he is knocked out of primaries. And I think you will see a new, and better, and more optimistic, solution-oriented Republican Party going into the general election.”

Earlier, he stated Trump’s plan is “about as realistic as one of the big neon signs on one of Donald Trump’s buildings. Not much.” And “Well, this is one of the biggest expansions of federal power that anyone has ever proposed in American history. Donald Trump would need an army of armed federal agents, with guns, from Washington, to deport 11 million people. He’d need the same army to start deporting children who were born here in the United States and are now American citizens. He says he’s going to stop people from sending money back to their home countries. Does that mean he’s going to give Washington the power to open our Fed-Ex packages? He is now interfering with American business saying, [paraphrasing], ‘By the way, if you want to hire an H-1B visa candidate, somebody to come over here and do technical work. Guess what? It’s going to cost you more. Because Washington and I say so.’ He is not a small-government conservative. Donald Trump thinks bigger government is great as long as he’s running it, and not those stupid politicians. So, this is, I think, a very unrealistic plan.”

He also argued, “This sounds like the Democratic Party we have now. ‘We’re from Washington. We have a plan for you.’ Donald Trump is not an anti-Washington guy. He just thinks the wrong people are running it. He’s all about more power from Washington telling us how to live our lives. He is a big corporate statist.” After Trump supporter Katrina Pierson responded, “If that were true, all the Washington pundits wouldn’t be out there trying to get him right now.” Castellanos countered, “The [conservative ones] are.”

If Trump loses the primary (which I sincerely doubt he will at this point but anything's possible) he should take them down on his way out.

I hope Trump cleanses America of the Republican Party they are worthless, we would be much better off with a real one-party state where at least people realize "Oh the Democrats run everything and there is no actual opposition".

That Castenallos guys is a hysteric that obviously cannot read and would be my last choice as a Republican strategist.

To say we would need an Army to forcibly deport 11 million illegals (more like 25-30 million, but I digress) just shows he is obviously working for one of the other players and doesn't realize his comments hurt the Republican brand, as the majority wants what Trump proposes.

His comments on H1B's are just as clueless. Sad, as that is an issue that could be very big to a group that generally does not vote Republican.

(08-18-2015 09:25 AM)Hotwheels Wrote:  That Castenallos guys is a hysteric that obviously cannot read and would be my last choice as a Republican strategist.

To say we would need an Army to forcibly deport 11 million illegals (more like 25-30 million, but I digress) just shows he is obviously working for one of the other players and doesn't realize his comments hurt the Republican brand, as the majority wants what Trump proposes.

His comments on H1B's are just as clueless. Sad, as that is an issue that could be very big to a group that generally does not vote Republican.

I hope that all of these downers that say that deporting the illegal aliens is impossible, too big, too expensive are like the same people that shat all over previous ambitious american projects like building the atomic bomb, interstate system and going to the moon.

I bet the same idiots that raged against the interstate system happily drove on it afterwards the will act the same way that they will enjoy the economic changes after mass deportations of people here illegally.

People will come to the jobs the same way that the manufacturing boom moved people from the south to the north...ie. How do you think Chicago and Detroit got its black communities? If there is a laborforce vaccum of outbound deportations, there will soon be people moving to fill those jobs. Again, why the fuck did people move to North Dakota? Thats right, for oil jobs, not the tornados and brutal winters. The same reason that people went to california after the dustbowl. The same reason that people are moving to texas now from california.

(08-18-2015 09:19 AM)Sonsowey Wrote:  I hope Trump cleanses America of the Republican Party they are worthless, we would be much better off with a real one-party state where at least people realize "Oh the Democrats run everything and there is no actual opposition".

At least the Democrats will tell Israel to take a hike, while giving a hand to illegal immigrants. The GOP will give a hand to both, one to satisfy the religious nuts in their party and the other for cheap labor. Being 1/2 anti-American is better than being wholly anti-American if you ask me (not saying it's good, just the lesser of the two evils). The Republicans offer no real solutions but proving that they are a bunch of leftist warmongers, and the American people (as well as GOP voters) are starting to wake up.

I also still think that Hillary won't win the Democratic nomination. I can see a dark horse candidate coming out of the woods (Martin O'Malley?) to take it instead.

Just looked at this thread and can't review 80 pages, so sorry if this has already been dealt with.

Who is his current wife? Would she make a suitable first lady? Or would his daughter maybe fulfill part of that role?

As an outsider I would love to see a Rand Paul vs Bernie Sanders election. Paul since I'm a (hypocritical) Libertarian, and Sanders because there doesn't seem to be anyone else on the American left who would actually represent it's values. A Clinton campaign, even if successful would go down as the most ridiculous in living memory. Nearly 100% victim politics. Women/X-race oppressed here there and everywhere. It will be nauseating.

But it will likely be Clinton vs either Bush III or Trump.

(08-18-2015 10:08 AM)Bad Hussar Wrote:  Who is his current wife? Would she make a suitable first lady?

Oh, OK. Eastern European and attractive. Can you imagine the hate the feminist hardcore will direct at her?

If nominated Trump just needs to find a way to deflect that energy back at them. There are always ways to use your opponents strong and irrational emotions against them...

This Alex punk and others like him just keep playing into Trump's hands. They go on these absurdist attacks because they have no idea how to run anything other than favors from behind their desks so Trump's proposals just seem "crazy", they make some cute sound bites about hispanic voters, female voters, etc etc.

Then Trump gets interviewed by an equally unimaginitive and overzealous reporter who wants to believe Alex knows what he's talking about and then Trump gives a sensible answer on how and why its "going to happen" and at the same time he gains popularity with the voters he supposedly alienated making them all look like fools and gaining even more poplularity in the process.

Brilliant.

This man lives a rough life

Jeez it even has a bathroom with a shower. That's nice

People are shitting their pants that you might have to pay menial laborers the minimum wage.

Liberals should be all about this.

If everyone in construction and food service suddenly was making a real working wage, that would help reduce poverty in our country.

Yet they're more concerned with maintaining a quasi-slave class of illegals for business owners to exploit than actually helping poor citizens be able to work.

(08-18-2015 04:24 AM)durangotang Wrote:  Well, illegals are certainly committing the crimes that American's won't commit, that's for sure. In the last few years a friend of mine had someone break into his house (very rare occurrence here) and steal his nice Macbook Pro. It turned up with an illegal. A kid on a bicycle was riding along our river trail and 3 illegals stabbed him 9 times to steal his bike and left him for dead (the local paper was honest enough to report that Spanish and English were both spoken). That kind of thing just doesn't happen here. Those are just two examples I know of and I don't pay close attention to local news.

I saw the Vice documentary, but I am not sold on them doing jobs that Americans won't do. That is a load of bullshit, really. Take away the welfare.

White Americans were roughly 90% of the population in 1960 and we built a nation that simultaneously defeated Germany and Japan and put a man on the moon. We didn't need Mexicans or illegals. Somehow we managed to feed ourselves, clean our houses, and have a valid economy without them. I always found that to be such a dishonest argument. As an example, before the financial crises in 2008 almost all of the fast food joints around town had Mexicans everywhere. Communicating was a pain in the ass over the speaker at the drive through. Now, and ever since the financial crisis, I see majority white people working fast food joints (I live in an area that is 85% white). Communicating is easy now.

I just think Americans are finally realizing how valuable this type of work really is. Service type work has always been underrated and under-appreciated in America dating back to even the slavery days. Someone had to do this back-breaking work.

We all know the story of the African slaves who picked cotton for over 400 years or the sharecropping era after reconstruction. The Great Migration of African Americans to the north who did these types of jobs. The Bracero programs during the 30s and 40s. Farm type work has always been done exclusively by Mexicans for over 80 years. This shit had to get done one way or another. This type of work has always been done by the lowest of the lowest in the socioeconomic ladder. Hell you can argue that the creation of the Welfare state after the civil rights movement really fucked African Americans over which gave the green light for more illegal immigrants to come in.

People are trying to end a habit that is very hard to reverse. Cheap labor is drug for employers and business owners. Its a habit that has been with Americans since the creation of the country and to automatically tell them to stop doing it will seem like radical change to them.


Edit- Another thing I forgot to mention was the Industrial Revolution which had a profound impact on this as well, where many Americans fled to the cities. Just another factor about the reasons that led to all the immigrants.

(08-18-2015 11:39 AM)MidWest Wrote:  

(08-18-2015 04:24 AM)durangotang Wrote:  Well, illegals are certainly committing the crimes that American's won't commit, that's for sure. In the last few years a friend of mine had someone break into his house (very rare occurrence here) and steal his nice Macbook Pro. It turned up with an illegal. A kid on a bicycle was riding along our river trail and 3 illegals stabbed him 9 times to steal his bike and left him for dead (the local paper was honest enough to report that Spanish and English were both spoken). That kind of thing just doesn't happen here. Those are just two examples I know of and I don't pay close attention to local news.

I saw the Vice documentary, but I am not sold on them doing jobs that Americans won't do. That is a load of bullshit, really. Take away the welfare.

White Americans were roughly 90% of the population in 1960 and we built a nation that simultaneously defeated Germany and Japan and put a man on the moon. We didn't need Mexicans or illegals. Somehow we managed to feed ourselves, clean our houses, and have a valid economy without them. I always found that to be such a dishonest argument. As an example, before the financial crises in 2008 almost all of the fast food joints around town had Mexicans everywhere. Communicating was a pain in the ass over the speaker at the drive through. Now, and ever since the financial crisis, I see majority white people working fast food joints (I live in an area that is 85% white). Communicating is easy now.

I just think Americans are finally realizing how valuable this type of work really is. Service type work has always been underrated and under-appreciated in America dating back to even the slavery days. Someone had to do this back-breaking work.

We all know the story of the African slaves who picked cotton for over 400 years or the sharecropping era after reconstruction. The Great Migration of African Americans to the north who did these types of jobs. The Bracero programs during the 30s and 40s. Farm type work has always been done exclusively by Mexicans for over 80 years. This shit had to get done one way or another. This type of work has always been done by the lowest of the lowest in the socioeconomic ladder. Hell you can argue that the creation of the Welfare state after the civil rights movement really fucked African Americans over which gave the green light for more illegal immigrants to come in.

People are trying to end a habit that is very hard to reverse. Cheap labor is drug for employers and business owners. Its a habit that has been with Americans since the creation of the country and to automatically tell them to stop doing it will seem like radical change to them.


Edit- Another thing I forgot to mention was the Industrial Revolution which had a profound impact on this as well, where many Americans fled to the cities. Just another factor about the reasons that led to all the immigrants.

Slavery and the desire for cheap labor goes back before recorded history. Really has nothing to do with Americans in particular.

Have you seen the media asking how much Bernie's or Hillary's programs will cost? And, if they do ask (like with Obamacare), they retell the same lies the administration says. But, when it comes to Trump, suddenly they're all about saving money.

(08-18-2015 12:27 PM)Captainstabbin Wrote:  Have you seen the media asking how much Bernie's or Hillary's programs will cost? And, if they do ask (like with Obamacare), they retell the same lies the administration says. But, when it comes to Trump, suddenly they're all about saving money.

I'm pretty sure most voters see right through this hypocrisy.

How much will Trump's plan cost?

The more the better!

It will create jobs for Americans!

Physical Removal is "Shovel Ready!"

How many unemployed bus drivers do we have who'd love to shuttle people back and forth to Tijuana?

(08-18-2015 10:11 AM)Hotwheels Wrote:  

(08-18-2015 10:08 AM)Bad Hussar Wrote:  Who is his current wife? Would she make a suitable first lady?

I'd like to see her adopt a slogan as well... one of these will do.


Make America sexy again!

Make women sexy again!

Make america skinny again!

Question for people who know a bit about the US construction industry:

Does Trump "Walk the talk". i.e. Do any of his projects hire illegal workers?

I remember seeing a construction project in Manhattan proudly proclaiming something like "Proudly hiring members of abc local". Is this typical, or do most construction projects rely on modern day indentured servants?

(08-18-2015 10:11 AM)Hotwheels Wrote:  

(08-18-2015 10:08 AM)Bad Hussar Wrote:  Who is his current wife? Would she make a suitable first lady?

Yeah he started off with an east European, then went to an American, then obviously made an educated 3rd choice.

This do or die American Republican primary is going to create an interesting aftermath if the Republicans lose the election in 2016.

(08-18-2015 12:55 PM)Bad Hussar Wrote:  Question for people who know a bit about the US construction industry:

Does Trump "Walk the talk". i.e. Do any of his projects hire illegal workers?

I remember seeing a construction project in Manhattan proudly proclaiming something like "Proudly hiring members of abc local". Is this typical, or do most construction projects rely on modern day indentured servants?

I am an architect so this is all seen from several rungs up the ladder but to answer your question:

The liability for hiring illegals on a construction job usually rests with subcontractors. A general contractor will, if they are ethical, refuse to allow subcontractors known to hire illegals to bid on their jobs. General contractors do sometimes have their own laborers in some trades, which are better policed being one rung up the proverbial food chain.

As a side note, for all of the shit unions take (most of it deserved), building trade unions usually are extremely vigilant when in comes to restricting their membership. One of the benefits of running a closed shop (only unionized trades allowed on site), or working in a city that doesn't allow open shops is that there are likely very few illegals working for major contractors and subcontractors.

So to answer your question, Trump himself has at least three degrees of separation between himself and anyone in a position to hire illegals. That being said, I am sure he scrutinized his current general contractors very hard prior to running for president. Having it come out that he was employing illegals would be a big time black eye...one that he is certainly smart enough to dodge.

I need to chime in as someone competing with illegals. I work temp labor doing everything from menial to brutal labor from 9-12 dollars an hour. This weekend I spent 27 hours throwing rugs around for a grand total of 210 dollars after Massachusetts taxes. Fuck illegals, throw them the fuck out, kill em if it's easier for all I care, I'm tired of my great work ethic bringing nothing but slavery.