Post: #126

(10-28-2017 07:43 AM)Icarus Wrote:  

(10-28-2017 07:22 AM)Bienvenuto Wrote:  No ruler in their right mind gives away any part of their state.

There are exceptions. The Soviet Union willingly retreated from East Germany, Poland, the Baltic States, the Caucasus and Central Asia.

What a strange analogy.

First of all, I don't think most posters here would consider the Soviet leaders to be of "their right mind".

Secondly, they didn't "willingly retreat" from those regions. Most of those states (particularly the Baltics, Caucasus, and Central Asia) gained independence just months before the dissolution of the USSR, when the Soviets could no longer suppress the numerous independence movements.

The Soviets didn't want their entire empire to collapse and fragment into over a dozen pieces.

Post: #127

(10-28-2017 02:15 PM)Enigma Wrote:  I don't think most posters here would consider the Soviet leaders to be of "their right mind".

Why not? Because "Communizzzm killed 100 millionzzzzzz!!!", right?

Post: #128

When was the last time Catalunya was a country or a kingdom? (besides 27/10/2017)
What exactly are the reasons for seccession and proclamation of independence? besides "muh independence"?

Post: #129

(10-28-2017 02:51 PM)Wreckingball Wrote:  When was the last time Catalunya was a country or a kingdom?

The King of Leon must have asked something similar about the County of Portucale in 1128 (which had existed since 868 only).

(10-28-2017 02:51 PM)Wreckingball Wrote:  What exactly are the reasons for seccession and proclamation of independence? besides "muh independence"?

How about the abolition of Aragon some 300 years ago?

Post: #130

(10-28-2017 02:42 PM)Icarus Wrote:  

(10-28-2017 02:15 PM)Enigma Wrote:  I don't think most posters here would consider the Soviet leaders to be of "their right mind".

Why not? Because "Communizzzm killed 100 millionzzzzzz!!!", right?

Well, that and the fact that the entire USSR collapsed in less than 70 years and still hasn't recovered.

But I guess killing or impoverishing the majority of your citizens could be considered the mark of a strong leader, depending how you look at it.

Post: #131

(10-28-2017 02:51 PM)Wreckingball Wrote:  When was the last time Catalunya was a country or a kingdom? (besides 27/10/2017)
What exactly are the reasons for seccession and proclamation of independence? besides "muh independence"?

This happened in the 1640s and they declared the French king their sovereign for protection. Apparently there was an attempt in the 1930s as well, which is what led to the current autonomy.

My understanding is that Catalonia makes up 20% of the Spanish economy, and transfers ten-fifteen billion Euros in taxes to the rest of the country every year. That's the mainstream modern grievance.

I agree with Lincoln's approach to the Civil War that neither side can unilaterally break the compact, that it has to be mutually agreed upon. Unfortunately, sometimes that agreement is not reached peacefully.

Post: #132

(10-27-2017 10:10 AM)heavy Wrote:  To my simple mind, I don't understand why Spain (Madrid) would fight a portion of their country from liberating themselves. I don't understand the idea that "we can't let these people leave"...or even more accurate and more befuddling, "we can't let people in this area develop their own autonomous rule of law independent of ours".

It's bizarre. I think it goes back to what Gavin McInnes says.

"There's two kinds of people: People who want to be left the fuck alone, and people who won't leave you the fuck alone."

For Spain, Catalonia provides significant revenue as Catalonia is a wealthy part of Spain. Also, it is kind of a humiliation for the Spanish gov because it makes them seem weak.

However, the larger issue at play here is that it sets a precedent for other areas of the EU as well as other western countries to declare independence which is kryptonite for the EU and centralization project. The EU and even the US do not support Catalonia at all. Catalan independence essentially vindicates the right to self determination principle which is antithetical to globalism.

Post: #133

I have read claims that Catalunya's recent push for independence is related to impending changes in Andorra's laws on banking secrecy.

Does anyone know anything about that?

Post: #134

My favourite 90 seconds of media coverage of this whole secessionist mess:

Post: #135

(10-28-2017 03:31 PM)Bill Brasky Wrote:  Catalan independence essentially vindicates the right to self determination principle which is antithetical to globalism.

But does turning your politically moderate and stable region into an independent bastion of Communism affirm self-determination?
Isn't a Catalonia ruled by such a government actually easier to control by globalists than a larger, stronger country?
Just look at what happened to former Yugoslav countries - when reduced to tiny irrelevant chunks of 2-7 million people with no plan or goal other than independence, they've all been turned into hapless EU/NATO satellites within only two decades.

I'm not saying that only right-wing people have the right to self-determination, just that if you want to be independent you better do it right and do it for the right reasons, otherwise your independence will quickly spiral back into the bondage you were trying to escape.

Post: #136

(10-28-2017 04:35 PM)Icarus Wrote:  My favourite 90 seconds of media coverage of this whole secessionist mess:

"post-verdad"
(Post-truth)

Epic!

Post: #137

(10-27-2017 06:16 PM)Icarus Wrote:  

(10-27-2017 06:10 PM)Plus Oultre Wrote:  At the time of the "discovery", Aragon and Castille were united by the marriage of Isabelle and Ferdinand; it was underway to form the nucleus that would be modern Spain.

Sure, but (to the best of my knowledge) until the Bourbon dynasty, Castillians and Aragonese had different privileges. The first Bourbon king (who was born in France) abolished the distinction between Castillian and Aragonese and centralized everything, like in France. Aragon as a distinct political entity was finished and modern Spain was born.

Aragon and Castille remained distinguished autonomies until the Bourbon dynasty, yes. However, many explorers, businessmen, clergymen, and politicians from Catalunya took part in the colonization of America. Most probably established themselves in Cadiz or close by, as the control of all commercial activity, as well as transit of people and expeditions to and from America was established there.

Also, Isabel, queen of Castille, left -in her will - to her husband, the king of Aragon, 50% of all the benefits from America, for him "para sustentaçión de su estado real" to finance his kingdoms. Not only because of love and respect, but because without his intervention, Castille wouldn't have America.

So yes, different kingdoms with different rules; but very close together. They united in order to survive and not they only survived but they thrived together. Castille might not have survived Portugal without Aragon; and Aragon might not have survived France without Castille. Together they survived and are Spain today.

However, in this conflict of today I rather to look at it with present and future eyes, and I am not as informed as I would like to be.

Post: #138

When we said Kosovo would come to Europe, no one took us seriously. Oh, how the tables have turned.

Post: #139

I believe Spain refused to recognize Kosovo for that very reason.

Post: #140

Meanwhile, a private company leaves SJW-land Catalunia every 15 minutes: commie Catalans will soon be on their knees, begging Spain or France to take them back. We'll make'em beg in pure Spanish or French, too, no Catalan, gracias!

http://www.abc.es/economia/abci-cataluna...ticia.html

"Un total de 1.603 empresas trasladaron su sede social desde Cataluña a otras regiones de España entre el 2 y el 25 de octubre, según datos del Colegio de Registradores Mercantiles de España. Este miércoles salieron un total de 102 empresas, tras registrar máximos a finales de la pasada semana."

I mean, it's not like Catalunia's only ally, Venezuela (themselves starving under the Red glory of Communism), is in any position to send them food or supplies...

So, soon Catalunia will be left without private businesses and industries, and with a bunch of millions of tattooed lesbians and pot-smokers, plus African migrants (African male migrants consider Barcelona as their capital and Mecca: there is a saying in sub Saharan Africa, goes: "Reach Barcelona or die trying") roaming their streets. It'll be Zombie-movie grade fun.

Post: #141

Give people the right to vote.

In Quebec in 1995 93.52% of the population voted, a record turnout in democracy that still stands today in the context of a fair, 100% transparent system that knew no problem through the Directeur général des élections.

The NO side won 50.6% to 49.4%.

61% of the francophones votes yes and the minority groups tipped the results for the NO, talk about the frustration for francophones.

I guess if this debate reopened today some pundits on this board would side with Canada and say screw the Quebeckers.

Forget the fact the Quebeckers basically colonized with the French North America from Qc city to New Orleans before the Pilgrims arrived, forget we fought first the indians and the diseases, people would still take a dump on Quebeckers perhaps on this forum.

So I say Madrid is shit, their whole country is lukewarm crap, they are lazy, I remember an American in this forum sharing a multi line pager on the spaniard culture, they act like it's the 1800's with modern Barcelona, I just think they suck in this situation.

But I can understand the difficult position to take between SJW Catalunya, EU who sides with Spain, Spain who no one really seems to like here and whatever interests the board has.

I wish Catalunya independence from Spain and Europe.

Post: #142

I'm sure yet another Spanish civil war is going to end well for the rest of Europe.

God save us from people who mean well. -storm

Post: #143

(10-28-2017 10:00 PM)Curunír Wrote:  Give people the right to vote.

In Quebec in 1995 93.52% of the population voted, a record turnout in democracy that still stands today in the context of a fair, 100% transparent system that knew no problem through the Directeur général des élections.

The NO side won 50.6% to 49.4%.

61% of the francophones votes yes and the minority groups tipped the results for the NO, talk about the frustration for francophones.

I guess if this debate reopened today some pundits on this board would side with Canada and say screw the Quebeckers.

Forget the fact the Quebeckers basically colonized with the French North America from Qc city to New Orleans before the Pilgrims arrived, forget we fought first the indians and the diseases, people would still take a dump on Quebeckers perhaps on this forum.

So I say Madrid is shit, their whole country is lukewarm crap, they are lazy, I remember an American in this forum sharing a multi line pager on the spaniard culture, they act like it's the 1800's with modern Barcelona, I just think they suck in this situation.

But I can understand the difficult position to take between SJW Catalunya, EU who sides with Spain, Spain who no one really seems to like here and whatever interests the board has.

I wish Catalunya independence from Spain and Europe.

Exactly how much time have you spent in Spain?

Spain is fucking awesome.

Post: #144

(10-27-2017 11:24 AM)The Beast1 Wrote:  

(10-27-2017 11:19 AM)Icarus Wrote:  

(10-27-2017 10:21 AM)The Beast1 Wrote:  I hold very little respect for the lazy Cantalonians and Spantards.

Nobody who matters cares what you think. Know your place.

The same could be leveled at you sunshine.
You have one immensely lazy government going up against an even lazier regional government. Nothing will come of this because the Catalans don't have it in them to die for their independence. Tree of liberty, blood of patriots.

They'll fold and this will be forgotten in a few weeks, just like the irrelevant Greeks, their do-nothing polticians, and the government which sold away all of their public assets to pay for their socialism and nearly defaulted debts.

Your post is spoken like a true Spaniard, don't take it personally.

I agree 100% that they don't have it in them to die for independence. They are a region lead by professional SJWs and would fold like a cheap lawnchair under any serious threat of full on war. They are not like theirs ancestors.

However, I also don't think that Spain has it in them to start massacring Catalonians. I could be wrong but I just don't see Spaniards killing their cousins en masse. Although Catalonia doesn't have any state, UN or institutional support, they do have cultural and popular support especially given the fact that their leaders tow the SJW line.

Handsome Creepy Eel mentioned something regarding Catalonia being able to flip to a full on communist state. I gave my original opinion based on an American point of view. I'm sure if Catalonia went full commie or feminist, that would be a disaster. I will say that I agree with self determination based on how I currently perceive it would play out in an American sense. Patriarchal, gun rights, highly capitalist, very high individual liberty, limited gov.

Whether or not the Catalonia situation would play out as I described above, I'd have to say it would be unlikely and that, yes it could go full on commie if it wasn't done right.

Post: #145

(10-28-2017 11:32 PM)PapayaTapper Wrote:  

(10-28-2017 10:00 PM)Curunír Wrote:  Give people the right to vote.

In Quebec in 1995 93.52% of the population voted, a record turnout in democracy that still stands today in the context of a fair, 100% transparent system that knew no problem through the Directeur général des élections.

The NO side won 50.6% to 49.4%.
Ch
61% of the francophones votes yes and the minority groups tipped the results for the NO, talk about the frustration for francophones.

I guess if this debate reopened today some pundits on this board would side with Canada and say screw the Quebeckers.

Forget the fact the Quebeckers basically colonized with the French North America from Qc city to New Orleans before the Pilgrims arrived, forget we fought first the indians and the diseases, people would still take a dump on Quebeckers perhaps on this forum.

So I say Madrid is shit, their whole country is lukewarm crap, they are lazy, I remember an American in this forum sharing a multi line pager on the spaniard culture, they act like it's the 1800's with modern Barcelona, I just think they suck in this situation.

But I can understand the difficult position to take between SJW Catalunya, EU who sides with Spain, Spain who no one really seems to like here and whatever interests the board has.

I wish Catalunya independence from Spain and Europe.

Exactly how much time have you spent in Spain?

Spain is fucking awesome.

Never mind the Spaniards with the criollos first conquered from México city to Bs As before the gringos came, forget that they fought first the Indian empires and the disease. People in this forum would still take a shit on Spain.

Nous étionz roiz !!!!

Post: #146

(10-28-2017 02:51 PM)Wreckingball Wrote:  When was the last time Catalunya was a country or a kingdom? (besides 27/10/2017)
What exactly are the reasons for seccession and proclamation of independence? besides "muh independence"?

The 2007/08 financial crash which began with the US sub-prime mortgage lending meltdown which affected the EU through a complex web of exposed usury. Merkel and the EU crucified southern Europe for being caught without a chair when the usurers turned off the music with debt borrowed with German low levels of interest.

Bobo SJWs realised that they didn't really like paying higher taxes in solidarity for their fellow citizens after all when Shylock returned for his due.

Post: #147

Too many guiris in this thread seem to be obsessed with the commie-ness of Catalans. I wonder in what alternative reality they currently live in.

Non-Catalan Spaniards view Catalans as selfish, individualistic and profit-oriented snobs. In fact, going back to the late Middle Ages, Catalans were trading with the Moors occupying the southern part of the Peninsula, even selling them goods that had been forbidden by the Pope (because of military uses). In other words, Catalans were viewed as selfish, individualistic and profit-oriented assholes already centuries ago.

If some losers in Catalunya are commie-friendly, it is because the non-loser bourgeois are producing enough wealth that the losers have the luxury of living in a fantasy world.

Post: #148

(10-28-2017 09:29 PM)Going strong Wrote:  Meanwhile, a private company leaves SJW-land Catalunia every 15 minutes

They move the HQ, but the bulk stays in Catalunya.

They may pay corporate taxes outside Catalunya, but thousands of workers are still paid salaries in Catalunya. Those workers pay income tax in Catalunya. It's not as bad as you're portraying.

Post: #149

Icarus, I get what you're saying, but it's akin to consoling ourselves that Swedes can't be utterly cucked because "they wuz vikings" 1000 years ago. It takes a horrifically short amount of time for an ethnic group, nation or culture to rot - sometimes just two generations if the corrosive factors are strong enough.

We have to judge Catalonia by its current policies and public opinion, which - I sincerely hope that I'm wrong - look terrible at the moment.

Post: #150

(10-29-2017 02:30 AM)Icarus Wrote:  Too many guiris in this thread seem to be obsessed with the commie-ness of Catalans. I wonder in what alternative reality they currently live in.

Non-Catalan Spaniards view Catalans as selfish, individualistic and profit-oriented snobs. In fact, going back to the late Middle Ages, Catalans were trading with the Moors occupying the southern part of the Peninsula, even selling them goods that had been forbidden by the Pope (because of military uses). In other words, Catalans were viewed as selfish, individualistic and profit-oriented assholes already centuries ago.

If some losers in Catalunya are commie-friendly, it is because the non-loser bourgeois are producing enough wealth that the losers have the luxury of living in a fantasy world.

Seriously, you need to drop the rah rah rah, "muh tribe is the best, look at muh history" and look objectively at your people's situation.

None of you are going to be free from Spanish rule, period.

None of you have the balls to stand up for your independence. I've known enough "Iberianese" (from Barcelona, to Madrid, Leon, Seville, to even Gran Canaria) with the exception of the Basque region, nobody has the cajones to make a real stand for independence.

Businesses are leaving. The bulk of their operations will also slowly leave over the next few months as you hooligans continue to think you have what it takes to be a real country.

This referendum will irrevocably damage the entire region's ability to be economically viable. The lack of support and coverage in the international community is telling. This is another "occupy wallstreet" type of protest. No one is taking it seriously.

Mark this post, Catalonian independence is the next Greek debt austerity protest. Things are still too good for people to really put their interests on the line.

I'll be happy to admit i'm wrong if it comes to it, but no one will be remembering this in two weeks. Your blind allegiance to your countrymen's flaws is charming and yet myopic at the same time. I hope you don't get disillusioned when the reality of the situation finally hits.

This whole referendum chirade is silly and highlights a deep cultural malaise that pervades Southern European countries.