Post: #201

Quote:I don't get it, I see white dudes with the hottest black chicks and I never get mad.

I've been in the DC area most of my life, and I don't think I've seen a hot black chick with a white guy more than once or twice. It's just not common.

Post: #202

(01-16-2017 06:54 PM)Samseau Wrote:  

(01-16-2017 05:06 PM)Kona Wrote:  

(01-16-2017 01:18 AM)Samseau Wrote:  Now you're hitting us with the NAWALT?

I don't know what the nawalt is, but hitting you with it was never my intention.

Allie is p to 32.5k today. Way to go. I say this because I am not a racism denier.

Aloha!

"Not all women are like that."

You're getting played by an 18 yr old... how does it feel? She obviously likes Black/Brown men because she knows she has more power over them, and liberals love to virtue signal for the right to be a slut.

OK. So if you are able to assume so much about the girl, why are you unable to assume anything about the father?

He is a white man from the south with deep roots. He is part owner of a hunting and fishing supply business.

Given the demographics, isn't it possible that this man just might not like black / brown people for the simple fact that they are black / brown?

Mahalo for explaining nawalt to me. Now you are hitting me with nasmaltarnleuiawp.

"Not all southern men are like that and racism no longer exists unless its against white people"

Aloha!

Post: #203

(01-16-2017 08:38 PM)Roosh Wrote:  

Quote:I don't get it, I see white dudes with the hottest black chicks and I never get mad.

I've been in the DC area most of my life, and I don't think I've seen a hot black chick with a white guy more than once or twice. It's just not common.

Atlanta is a different animal. There are several more interracial couples and many more attractive black women than you'll see in other parts of the country. The same goes for some western transplant cities like Las Vegas and LA--LA I only gathered from a weekend visit, but saw plenty of black girl and white guy pairings.

Post: #204

(01-15-2017 03:08 PM)Quintus Curtius Wrote:  Guys, don't get manipulated into thinking that this little story is mainly about "race." My gut feeling tells me that this is a family fight, probably brought on by the fact that this girl is "acting out" in some way. We don't know enough to tell for sure. She might have a drug problem. She might have an alcohol problem. She might have been spending money recklessly like a drunken sailor. She might be having other problems. We don't know.

The black dude is being used as a prop. He's a wedge inserted by the chick into the drama to deflect attention away from the fact that SHE is the asshole here. Her parents are probably trying to discipline her and she's lashing out in defiance. So she's going to throw her family under the bus and publicly accuse her parents of "racism" or whatever. It's a vicious tactic and the father is probably enraged that his good name is being dragged through the mud.

And if that doesn't work, the next accusation will be that the father molested her as a girl. That's the next trick in her bag of surprises. I see through all their little games, cons, scams, and lies. I know what they're going to do before even they do.

Remember, women are infinitely manipulative and will seize on any excuse to defect attention away from the issues that they don't want to talk about.

So when you guys waste time bickering back and forth about race and all that other bullshit, just remember that. This bitch is manipulating you. Don't play into her frame.

Remember: public accusations of things like rape, molestation, "racism" or "discrimination" are almost always false. Real victims don't go public and beg for loose change on GoFundMe.

.

This is a story as old as the hills, but God help us now we have to hear about it aggrandized like this because of the internet and this Gofundme lifestyle disease.

She is definitely acting out, she's an adult now and she still wants her parents to fund her lifestyle no questions asked, and also for her them to not have any expectations of her. Sure Dad i'll take ALL the money you can throw at me, but how dare you judge me or hold me to certain standards. It doesn't really matter that he's black, she was dating this guy and fucking him, under her parent's noses for a long period of time, while keeping this secret and constantly lying to them. How many times do you think they called and asked her what she was doing this weekend, and she said, "Hehe, Oh nothing, just studying with my girlfriend..." meanwhile she's getting her back blown out. And now that she has been held accountable for her behavior she doesn't want to be judged for her actions, so she has tried to ruin them publicly and socially, and disparage them like this. She can no longer be trusted.

She wants the freedom to fuck who she wants, to be an adult and all that, but to still act like a child, and lie to them while they pay for all her expenses. Nah, you're 18, if you want to lie to us, and play these games then go get your own place, go fuck who you want to, and now you're on your own!

Post: #205

My experiences in DC were most attractive black chicks were of African or Islander descent and mostly stayed within those circles. Seemed alot more "cliquey" than other cities. I had a hard time gaming there to say the least. Places like NYC interacial pairings are much more common.

Post: #206

This is thread fascinating because we have just enough information to speculate with, but not enough for any side to be able to prove anything one way or the other.

It's like a rorschach test but for confirmation bias. Everybody sees what they want to see.

Post: #207

(01-16-2017 08:38 PM)Roosh Wrote:  

Quote:I don't get it, I see white dudes with the hottest black chicks and I never get mad.

I've been in the DC area most of my life, and I don't think I've seen a hot black chick with a white guy more than once or twice. It's just not common.

Come to Atlanta and go to The Local on Monday night, it will change your mind. Also I include Ethiopians as black people.

Post: #208

(01-16-2017 10:41 PM)Atlanta Man Wrote:  

(01-16-2017 08:38 PM)Roosh Wrote:  

Quote:I don't get it, I see white dudes with the hottest black chicks and I never get mad.

I've been in the DC area most of my life, and I don't think I've seen a hot black chick with a white guy more than once or twice. It's just not common.

Come to Atlanta and go to The Local on Monday night, it will change your mind. Also I include Ethiopians as black people.

I'm not attracted to the vast majority of black women in the United States, primarily due to obesity, tattoos (though white girls are fast catching up if not already surpassed them), and the liberal politics.

If there was one group of really classy black girls in the United States, I'd say the Ethiopians are it. Beautiful girls, and truly feminine. Often more on the conservative side and active Christians. I've dated Latinas, Asians, and whites primarily. But if I were to look for a LTR/marriage with a black woman, Ethiopia would certainly be the best shopping grounds in my experience. Are there that many Ethiopians in Atlanta? I thought most were in the D.C. area?

Post: #209

(01-16-2017 10:12 PM)Deluge Wrote:  This is thread fascinating because we have just enough information to speculate with, but not enough for any side to be able to prove anything one way or the other.

It's like a rorschach test but for confirmation bias. Everybody sees what they want to see.

Comeon man. If you are going to post a picture of nuns having sex with a donkey give us a warning first. Some of us are at work.

Post: #210

(01-16-2017 11:07 PM)tarquin Wrote:  

(01-16-2017 10:12 PM)Deluge Wrote:  This is thread fascinating because we have just enough information to speculate with, but not enough for any side to be able to prove anything one way or the other.

It's like a rorschach test but for confirmation bias. Everybody sees what they want to see.

Comeon man. If you are going to post a picture of nuns having sex with a donkey give us a warning first. Some of us are at work.

it looks like a panting cartoon dog to me

Post: #211

The Coli has gone IRL

Post: #212

(01-16-2017 08:47 PM)Kona Wrote:  

(01-16-2017 06:54 PM)Samseau Wrote:  

(01-16-2017 05:06 PM)Kona Wrote:  

(01-16-2017 01:18 AM)Samseau Wrote:  Now you're hitting us with the NAWALT?

I don't know what the nawalt is, but hitting you with it was never my intention.

Allie is p to 32.5k today. Way to go. I say this because I am not a racism denier.

Aloha!

"Not all women are like that."

You're getting played by an 18 yr old... how does it feel? She obviously likes Black/Brown men because she knows she has more power over them, and liberals love to virtue signal for the right to be a slut.

OK. So if you are able to assume so much about the girl, why are you unable to assume anything about the father?

Because the Father didn't post a gofundme hitjob on the internet backstabbing everyone in his family.

Quote:Samseau, have you ever met this girl? How do you know so much about why she likes black people?

Yes, I'm sure if she posted a pic of a White "boyfriend" she'd have gotten 30K in donations.

You guys are acting like this is a hard story to figure out.

This isn't a Rosarch test. This is a blatant betrayal of one's family cashing in on the liberal zeitgeist.

Really no different than if a woman posted a gofundme for an abortion. Or carrying around a matress on campus she was "raped" on.

Quote:He is a white man from the south with deep roots. He is part owner of a hunting and fishing supply business.

Given the demographics, isn't it possible that this man just might not like black / brown people for the simple fact that they are black / brown?

It's so irrelevant it does not matter. Even if the father was Hitler himself, it would not matter. A father should always have the final say in family affairs.

Moreover, there is NOTHING racist about having sexual preferences for one race over another.

Is Atlanta Man a racist because he's a Black man who prefers White women? Of course not! Nor is it any more racist for someone to prefer their own race, or for their daughter to marry within or without their race.

If sexual preferences are now racist, then the word racist truly has no meaning left to it.

What's next - if you don't want to fuck a dog you're speciesist?

Post: #213

(01-17-2017 12:16 AM)Samseau Wrote:  What's next - if you don't want to fuck a dog you're speciesist?

Not wanting to fuck trans people is literally considered transphobic. Meanwhile some pedophiles are demanding people accept their preference as an alternative lifestyle.

She's Sodom and Gomorrah nowadays.

Edit: I wasn't going to include a link but then I remembered this gem:

Post: #214

Samseau why do you assume the only reason she likes black men is because she has more power over them? Nothing I've seen suggests she has more power over her boyfriend. If it was a white guy with a hot foreign girl that the story was about we'd be seeing all sorts of 'game recognized' posts.

So sexual preferences aren't racist, but she isn't allowed to have any sexual preferences, because the father happened to be paying her way at college? A lot of prudes coming out the woodwork in this thread, surprising on a game forum.

The father played his hand, and now that she's playing hers people are getting mad.

Post: #215

(01-16-2017 11:22 PM)nomadbrah Wrote:  The Coli has gone IRL

That was a joke video right? Dude , that is a good way to get fucked up-Let some faggot approach me like that when I am with my white woman , I would slam him, not slap-Fucking slam him. I have had to hear far to many fat black bitches give me shit about who I date , i dare a faggot dude to give me any shit.

Post: #216

(01-16-2017 10:51 PM)John Michael Kane Wrote:  

(01-16-2017 10:41 PM)Atlanta Man Wrote:  

(01-16-2017 08:38 PM)Roosh Wrote:  

Quote:I don't get it, I see white dudes with the hottest black chicks and I never get mad.

I've been in the DC area most of my life, and I don't think I've seen a hot black chick with a white guy more than once or twice. It's just not common.

Come to Atlanta and go to The Local on Monday night, it will change your mind. Also I include Ethiopians as black people.

I'm not attracted to the vast majority of black women in the United States, primarily due to obesity, tattoos (though white girls are fast catching up if not already surpassed them), and the liberal politics.

If there was one group of really classy black girls in the United States, I'd say the Ethiopians are it. Beautiful girls, and truly feminine. Often more on the conservative side and active Christians. I've dated Latinas, Asians, and whites primarily. But if I were to look for a LTR/marriage with a black woman, Ethiopia would certainly be the best shopping grounds in my experience. Are there that many Ethiopians in Atlanta? I thought most were in the D.C. area?

In Atlanta they own all the Movie Theaters and Paid Parking Lots. They are also well represented in the AUC (Atlanta University Center).

Post: #217

(01-17-2017 01:34 AM)Kieran Wrote:  Samseau why do you assume the only reason she likes black men is because she has more power over them?

Never said this.

Quote:Nothing I've seen suggests she has more power over her boyfriend.

We have no idea if its her boyfriend, but for all the other black/brown men reading her gofundme they are now much more likely to contribute because she is a White girl claiming to like Black guys.

See how easy it is to manipulate others when you have sexual power over them?

Quote: If it was a white guy with a hot foreign girl that the story was about we'd be seeing all sorts of 'game recognized' posts.

Not from me.

Quote:So sexual preferences aren't racist, but she isn't allowed to have any sexual preferences, because the father happened to be paying her way at college?

No, because the father is the one who pays and raises the children over the course of two decades. The college is just the icing on the cake.

Quote: A lot of prudes coming out the woodwork in this thread, surprising on a game forum.

Yeah, go raise a daughter and then tell us she can fuck a hundred different guys.

Quote:The father played his hand, and now that she's playing hers people are getting mad.

I'm not mad at anyone. Just ashamed for the suckers who contributed to her scamfundme page.

Post: #218

Daddy dropped the ball on this one, he claims he's cutting her off because she's spoiled but how did that happen? It sure wasn't because she was mowing the lawn for tenners on the weekend or helping driving her brother to band practice. If kid is spoiled that's on the parents.

Post: #219

I would bet money that most of the funds were donated by other white women "making a difference".

Post: #220

Time for some real-talk, fellas.

The problem with interracial dating isn't that you or I are racist. It's that every other motherfucker in the world is.

When I was dating my wife we were very happy, but when I turned up to their family barbecues I might as well have been a fucking alien from planet x.

When she turned up to my family events she might as well have been a fucking mail order bride for all they were concerned.

I'm not saying "don't do it". I'm saying "she better really be fucking worth it" because although folks may not be burning crosses in front yards or going polar bear hunting in statistically relevant numbers, the vast majority of them are still very fucking uncomfortable around other races, largely because suddenly it means they have to watch every fucking, God-damned word they say in case casual banter gets misconstrued.

White guys are thinking we better include the black guy or he'll think we're racist.

Black guy's thinking "this seems totally fake", because it is, but he can't be sure why.

White guys can tell he's not buying it and now everyone is shitting bricks.

Pops probably knows this from experience. He might have come on a little too strong explaining it. Of course, adolescent girls never fly off the handle when confronted about emotional issues, do they?

Fact is not a single one of us has the slightest clue about what the particulars of this little spat are. So far we have nine, count them NINE pages of pure assumptions, none of which hold any more water than my suggestion that pops found out the hard way that Michael was a homo hooker.

edit: Here's the sum total eval of this little fuckfest.

Daddy said, "I'm the patriarch, do as I say." (motive UNKNOWN, presumption=confirmation bias)
Daughter said, "no".
Daddy said, "I have the money. Do as I say."
Daughter said, "no"
Daughter has one "come crawling back" card to play.
Daughter cashes it in for $30k with internet racism appeal.

Facts.

Post: #221

I believe there’s some truth to both sides, but the girl didn’t expect this situation to explode publicly like it has.

Allow me to share my experience, since I have walked the walk and had time to reflect after several years.

I’ve also been in this exact situation - I’m a black man who had a serious white college girlfriend for a couple of years. We were both Marketing undergrad students and we met a frat party through mutual friends. Ironically enough this is circa Fall 2010 when I first started Roosh and drastically improved my game - no way in hell I would’ve pulled this girl without his advice .

She was 19, tall, slim, a virgin, great personality, and still to this day the smartest girl I’ve ever met. Don’t think I could’ve done much better. Great family and upbringing - her dad worked for Microsoft and lived in Naples, FL. We had so much in common in tastes of music, college, and friends that our minor cultural differences didn’t matter and we simply made fun of them.. For example when I’d go get a haircut she’d say “Oh, you’re going to get your edges faded?”, or when I tell her I have to make a car payment she’d asked “What’s that?”, then I’d give her shit of how privileged she was.

Anyway I fell for, as she did for me. There’s nothing like your first love - it’s always the purest because you’re both young and naive. We took weekend trips to Universal Studios in Orlando and to the beach in St.Augustine. She basically lived at my apartment. I was making long term plans within months of dating this girl, and I havn’t even banged her yet. That’s how I knew I genuinely liked her. She loved me hard - she would cry when I would leave to work in the summer and called me everyday. The feelings were very real and mutual.

As great as the relationship was going there were red flags.

•She never publicly posted pictures of us together on Facebook or other social media.

•I would ask her if she told her parents about me, and she’d say she mentioned it to her mom, but not her dad.

•She would tell me when the family got together at the dinner table they would argue about race. Her dad had a “bad experience” with a black guy at his job when he worked in Canada in the 90’s - that was his reasoning for not associating with black people.


Of course she said she didn’t give a fuck what her dad thinks. Fast forward to Valentine’s day 2011. I hire a serenading boys choir to surprise her with chocolate and a teddy bear on campus in front of everybody. I pulled up and she is balling in tears - not tears of joy, but she was hurt. I’m talking snot all over my shirt and incessant crying for like 10 minutes.

She eventually got it together and revealed that she posted a photo of us on Facebook that day saying she loved me. Her father saw this and lashed out - said she brought him shame, he disapproved, and threatened to cut her off. Also, if we were to ever have kids he would not be in their life. This guy didn’t even have the decency to meet me first. We dated for a few years after this, but she eventually caved in dramatic fashion.

She’s currently hugged up with an Indian computer software dude named Patel whom I’m sure her father approved of. I recently saw a picture of them together on my Instagram feed over the holidays, with the caption “ So glad I got to spend another year with the Love of my Life!”


Picture Perfect.


What did I learn from this experience?

1.That same week of this episode, she lost her virginity to me after 5 months of dating. I’d like to think It was a random act of love - but I do always wonder if it was partly a rebellious act to get to her father, or maybe she felt guilt from his actions. I never discussed this with her so I don’t know for sure.

2.When you marry a girl, you’re really marrying the family. If her family does not support and respect you, then it’s not worth the trouble. Does not matter how much you "love" each other - you have to consider your future children.

3.Racism/Tribalism is very real - and it works both ways. I had minority friends back then who said they would never date a white girl. Everyone has their preferences, and it’s to a man. We all have to agree to disagree. This is the world we live in.

4.I had a strong sense of disdain for her father back then, mostly because he declined my offer to meet me. I had lost all respect for him. However now that I’m an older man myself, I have a better understanding of tribalism, and the want for some men to have kids that look like themselves.

5.Young white girls who date interracially are almost always liberals. Most conservative white women I’ve met have told me they would not date outside their race, and I respect that.

6.Red Pill, High IQ black men have almost nothing in common with other blacks, asides from entertainment preferences. This includes women they deem LTR worthy, in which the dating pool is extremely limited within their own race. I am personally attracted to white girls because of their higher intellect, physical attractiveness, and easygoing temperament.

7. As a high value black man dating a white woman your going to get static and hate from both sides. Members of my own (Liberal) family - especially the black women always have something to say. In Kiev, my girl and I will ride up the metro escalator, and white dudes flick us off on the regular. You have to decide yourself if it's worth it.


I’m currently getting pretty serious with my Ukrainian girlfriend I met in Kiev. Meeting her parents soon.

Post: #222

(01-16-2017 10:41 PM)Atlanta Man Wrote:  

(01-16-2017 08:38 PM)Roosh Wrote:  

Quote:I don't get it, I see white dudes with the hottest black chicks and I never get mad.

I've been in the DC area most of my life, and I don't think I've seen a hot black chick with a white guy more than once or twice. It's just not common.

Come to Atlanta and go to The Local on Monday night, it will change your mind. Also I include Ethiopians as black people.

I'm surprised more white/Asian men don't catch on to that opportunity, fuck going overseas for white or Latina or Asian woman, I bet ATL is the place you should be going to meet hot women of another background.

(01-17-2017 10:00 AM)Sosa Wrote:  I’m currently getting pretty serious with my Ukrainian girlfriend I met in Kiev. Meeting her parents soon.

I predict that how well this goes will be directly proportional to how much you can offer her in terms of socioeconomic advancement.

Post: #223

(01-17-2017 10:00 AM)Sosa Wrote:  2.When you marry a girl, you’re really marrying the family. If her family does not support and respect you, then it’s not worth the trouble. Does not matter how much you "love" each other - you have to consider your future children.

3.Racism/Tribalism is very real - and it works both ways. I had minority friends back then who said they would never date a white girl. Everyone has their preferences, and it’s to a man. We all have to agree to disagree. This is the world we live in.

4.I had a strong sense of disdain for her father back then, mostly because he declined my offer to meet me. I had lost all respect for him. However now that I’m an older man myself, I have a better understanding of tribalism, and the want for some men to have kids that look like themselves.

5.Young white girls who date interracially are almost always liberals. Most conservative white women I’ve met have told me they would not date outside their race, and I respect that.

6.Red Pill, High IQ black men have almost nothing in common with other blacks, asides from entertainment preferences. This includes women they deem LTR worthy, in which the dating pool is extremely limited within their own race. I am personally attracted to white girls because of their higher intellect, physical attractiveness, and easygoing temperament.

7. As a high value black man dating a white woman your going to get static and hate from both sides. Members of my own (Liberal) family - especially the black women always have something to say. In Kiev, my girl and I will ride up the metro escalator, and white dudes flick us off on the regular. You have to decide yourself if it's worth it.

I'd like to address a couple of points you have written here:

2. I agree with you that are partially marrying their family but ultimately you are not. I REFUSE and WILL NOT let racists dictate who I marry or end up with. If they do not want to be in my childrens lives because they are mixed... Well than thats their loss and problem. My family including grandparents will be more than happy to take them in and give them the support and love they need. More often than not they eventually realize that people are people anyway.

3. Racism/Tribalism is very real and also an outdated way of thinking in my opinion.

4. I swear sometimes you guys seem to know how the kid will look before the kids are even born. Ever seen kids who actually look mixed? Some kids dont even look like their parents outside of being black or white.

5. I 100% agree with you with those girls being liberals. Honestly, if I am friends or acquaintances with a white woman and she tells me she would never date a black man.. Our relationship is over. So we are good enough to have fun with, support you with whatever and get attention from.. but not sleep or have a serious relationship with? Bye Bye.

6. Is the story of my life so I agree with you 100% here. I have only dated white my entire life.

7. I have received some small flack from my family but it seems to be a larger trend in my family anyway and im not the only one. We are first generation born in America and almost all my cousins are with whites. The static is something I am used to and anyone who has a problem with my dating white can jump off a cliff. Family included.

No one has a the right to question anyones dating preferences as long as the person is treating them right and doing the right thing. Honestly I care more if the guy/girl is smart, hustling, making that paper, and being an upstanding person.

I know how it is be to judged before opening your mouth and I try not to do it to anyone else.

Post: #224

(01-16-2017 11:22 PM)nomadbrah Wrote:  The Coli has gone IRL

Only white people can be racist !!

(01-17-2017 12:16 AM)Samseau Wrote:  Moreover, there is NOTHING racist about having sexual preferences for one race over another.

Is Atlanta Man a racist because he's a Black man who prefers White women? Of course not! Nor is it any more racist for someone to prefer their own race, or for their daughter to marry within or without their race.

If sexual preferences are now racist, then the word racist truly has no meaning left to it.

What's next - if you don't want to fuck a dog you're speciesist?

Cosign with Sam on this - EVERYONE has sexual preferences, from color of eyes, to color of hair, to color of skin, ethnic background, and religious background for starters.

Granted so far my dick hasn't discriminated - I've fucked all ends of the spectrum - from dark sexy black to light sexy asian, and everything in between.

But I'm not looking to a marry a bitch so that's probably why I'm not really picky about it. (However if I ever have kids, it might be with a spicy latina woman).

I've noticed myself being less and less attractive to American Indian girls, and I'm Indian myself ! Probably because of Princess Jasmine syndrome.

(01-17-2017 10:00 AM)Sosa Wrote:  She’s currently hugged up with an Indian computer software dude named Patel whom I’m sure her father approved of. I recently saw a picture of them together on my Instagram feed over the holidays, with the caption “ So glad I got to spend another year with the Love of my Life!”

Sorry man, wasn't trying to steal your girl, her father still makes 7/11 jokes about me.


As far everything else you say - I've had a few serious relationships where I've met the parents, the first one was a single white mom who had a super redneck boyfriend - but we got all along pretty well.

The second girl was once again, single mom, but with a mexican boyfriend who was a police officer, got along just fine, but it was a short relationship.

The third girl had white parents, we even traveled together, the dad was pretty chill, but kept to himself, her mom was this overly obese SJW who didn't do shit with her life. Her sister and brother were super religious and were very nice in general, can't say the same for the sister I was dating (looking back at it).

The fourth girl was Latina, her mom loved me, her dad did too, they were really nice to me and super chill, we went to her family events together.


I guess you can call me white washed or maybe I just easily get along with people in general and parents usually dig me, I've never had a bad experience (yet).

I'd think that black/white interracial couples are more under the magnifying glass versus say white/mexican or any other mix.

Post: #225

Refreshing to see that Sosa is thoughtful and honest about the topic

Isn't the fact that the young ones that go for this "idea" are liberal telling?

Sosa, you said red pill high iq black men "have nothing in common with ..." --- is there a substantial portion that are closet traditionalists/conservatives? I don't know them, nor have I seen them --- and been around it all my life. That's why I'm asking

I'm not opposed to miscegenation, I just don't think about it, it sorta is self evident. It's also a pretty cosmic and feminine concept of a love conquers all vs human evolution and real life, red pill realities. The real question (and I think a guy like Sosa would be honest about this) is on average, why would a white father not do all he could to interfere? He doesn't know that guy from Adam. He's a man. The best and most trustworthy of us know what we all think and at least try to do. Add american black culture on that, how could you blame the guy? There's no point in being dishonest or holding people to standards you wouldn't hold yourself to (read: Robert Griffin among other countless examples that would have been among the best hopes and utter failtures ... yes I know he's an athlete)