(01-18-2018 08:14 PM)SlickyBoy Wrote:  

(01-18-2018 03:30 AM)TooFineAPoint Wrote:  

(01-18-2018 12:15 AM)Leonard D Neubache Wrote:  But let's just cut to the chase, shall we? Under strict libertarianism, how young can a child be before the mother sells it to a paedophile, and what cut does the father get, if any?

1.3 years and 7 shekels.

Point is, American libertarians don't support open borders.

Uh.... are you sure? Unless that was sarcasm I missed...

Libertarians give lip service to security and safety in their platform on immigration, but don't be fooled. They are officially open border cucks. This is their platform as of 2016:

Quote:3.4 Free Trade and Migration

We support the removal of governmental impediments to free trade. Political freedom and escape from tyranny demand that individuals not be unreasonably constrained by government in the crossing of political boundaries. Economic freedom demands the unrestricted movement of human as well as financial capital across national borders. However, we support control over the entry into our country of foreign nationals who pose a credible threat to security, health or property

Libertarians like Grover Norquist are some of the biggest advocates for open borders, amnesty, you name it - while supposedly supporting the second amendment. As much as he might think he supports the 2A, he and others refuse to see the conflict in their borderless disaster. The second amendment and nearly all gun ownership as we know it will evaporate the minute there's enough third world voters to populate the legislature with leftist politicians who want to destroy it. It isn't possible to support both. Fuckwits like Norquist are probably well aware of this and compensated handsomely by H1B advocating think tanks and other orgs padding their wallets while the middle class goes up in smoke.

It's because of hopelessly conflicted ideals like that and idiots running around in Uncle Sam suits shouting "end the fed!" that the Libertarian party remains the running joke. That's why the Democrats never give it a hard time - they're the hopeless Down syndrome stepbrother of political parties.

Yes, like you guys I think the libertarian party is a joke.

There are several reasons that the most popular libertarian figure in modern America (Ron Paul) chose to run as a Republican instead of a libertarian.

The Mises Institute which I quoted in reply to Leonard is one of (if not the most) important libertarian organization in the USA. Maybe they share that with Reason, but for a while anyway their website traffic was nuts.

The article title for those who missed it was "Open Borders Are An Assault On Private Property".

The term open borders in the sense you guys are using it is basically the forcing (or at least heavily aiding and abetting) of foreigners into a country in a way that allows the migrant's supposed "rights" to trump those of the host culture. That's something quite different than not stifling the free movement of people.

The views most often expressed on the forum are pretty close (as far as I can tell) to how one would protect one's own house -- you get to decide who comes and goes. But you don't say "fuck it, none of my family ever get to leave, and we shall never receive visitors". Each movement is weighed for benefits.

In that sense, this is much closer to what the Mises folks are saying than this supposed libertarian open-borders boogeyman.

You can't have it both ways. You can't say that "American libertarians are for open borders" (in the negative way you mean it), then turn around and say I don't speak for all libertarians when I disagree. You also don't speak for all libertarians.

So we're both left with quite a bit of conjecture.

I just think it's funny, because the Republican party talks a big game about being for minimal government and traditional family values, but I sure don't see it reflected in their platforms or actions.

Look at Trump having to fight most of his own party almost as much as the Dems.

Since when do political party platforms actually stand for what an ideological group of people actually believe?

I like Leonard's distinction. Modern neckbeard leftertarians may want the kind of open borders that make us all shudder.

Well.
Might not be getting much sleep tonight with all this.

4chan delivers yet again.

Feeling zero excitement about memos, subpoenas and indictments at this point. Conservatives have been whipping themselves into a frenzy for months over this, yet no one has even been arrested over it. The system is so corrupt that other than in our little echo chamber, the entire matter might as well not exist.

Wake me up when Soros, Hillary or Obama are in jail. Anything else is just crying wolf.

Agree with many people above.

Even HD pictures and videos of Hilliary killing children and drinking their blood wouldn't result in an arrest. Some boring pretext of wire tapping isn't going to do anything.

Has any important swamp creature ever been indicted since Nixon?

Is it all just about envy?

(01-19-2018 08:45 AM)ball dont lie Wrote:  Agree with many people above.

Even HD pictures and videos of Hilliary killing children and drinking their blood wouldn't result in an arrest. Some boring pretext of wire tapping isn't going to do anything.

Has any important swamp creature ever been indicted since Nixon?

Ye have little faith.

(01-19-2018 08:23 AM)Handsome Creepy Eel Wrote:  Feeling zero excitement about memos, subpoenas and indictments at this point. Conservatives have been whipping themselves into a frenzy for months over this, yet no one has even been arrested over it. The system is so corrupt that other than in our little echo chamber, the entire matter might as well not exist.

Wake me up when Soros, Hillary or Obama are in jail. Anything else is just crying wolf.

Agreed. If this was a game changer, why not sit back, pour yourself a beer and wait for the deep swamp state to drain itself?

Why spend time on the Internet repeatedly posting "this is big!"?

Guys wanna believe. That's why they keep posting about how big things are on the Internet.

I don't post about the sun rising tomorrow, even though it is essential to my existence, because it's a 99.9999999999999999% certainty.

Somehow I don't feel like I can just relax, sit back and watch the American political equation correct itself over the next three months.

Can't wait to see what you guys are posting is "really big" 6 months down the road. Or 12 or 24.

(01-19-2018 08:23 AM)Handsome Creepy Eel Wrote:  Feeling zero excitement about memos, subpoenas and indictments at this point. Conservatives have been whipping themselves into a frenzy for months over this, yet no one has even been arrested over it. The system is so corrupt that other than in our little echo chamber, the entire matter might as well not exist.

Wake me up when Soros, Hillary or Obama are in jail. Anything else is just crying wolf.

I'm starting to wonder if the whole point of this farce is as a deep state long-play demoralisation technique. If the goal is to create some sort of emotional burnout in gullible Republicans while whittling away four years with no arrests then it's currently doing an outstanding job.

As for going after Obama, it would simply be perceived as vindictive, unpatriotic and wasteful of political capital. It would also do little to slow the globalist machine since Barack was only ever at best an empty suit. Worse, Obama would become a martyr who would galvanise the socialists and renew their vigour in fighting the Right.

Personally I would like to see Soros and Hillary locked up though, specifically as a walk-in to slapping a RICO charge on anyone they've dealt with and literally freezing trillions of dollars of elite money. I'm not holding my breath on that one, though. You start to learn how deep the rabbit hole goes when you realise the filthy rich Soros is merely the global elites version of an entry level junior associate.

I'm routinely reminded of the first movie in the recent Batman trilogy when Detective Gordon's partner tells him to take his cut of some protection money because his constant refusals make the other crooked cops nervous, and Gordon tells him "in a town like this, who would I rat to?"

In a town like DC you have to find more than one honest cop, prosecutor and judge (hard enough). The entire system has to be at least airtight enough that evidence doesn't go missing or get tampered with, that due process is not breached leading to mistrials and that witnesses are protected rather than committing suicide by shooting themselves in the back five times.

We should have gotten our wake-up call after the Vegas massacre. Trump will tweet about a conspiracy to remove one of the secret spices from his KFC but here we are months later and Paddock, the "magical lone gunman" has been memory holed along with the 58 presumably conservative Americans killed and hundreds more injured.

If Trump himself can't or won't wring answers about this kind of event out of the FBI and make them public then it's a bit farcical for us to keep getting our hopes up about the deep state being slapped in irons over a few dubious wire taps.

Speaking of 'Russian collusion' here's an interview that Jimmy Dore did with Aaron Maté of The Real News Network in which Maté recounts his interview with the Guardian's Luke Harding. Harding was called out for his nonsense by Maté and the end result is hilarious. Harding does not offer one scintilla of evidence of Trump's collusion with the Russians.

Here's the original interview between TRNN and Harding




and Jimmy Dore's follow up with Maté.




Both videos are a must watch.

P.S. Apologies for posting here as I don't have the 50 post count but I thought I would share this here.

Is this only a twitter storm like the 1000 before or is it the real deal?

Ive heard that shit is about to hit the fan about a million times.

I just want one satanist pedophile politician ring arrested and ill forgive Trump for Jerusalem.

Suits Wrote:Agreed. If this was a game changer, why not sit back, pour yourself a beer and wait for the deep swamp state to drain itself?

Why spend time on the Internet repeatedly posting "this is big!"?

Because the media is complicit in covering up all Democrat crimes.

And because this particular string of crimes leads to one important target: Barrack Obama.

Are the American people psychologically ready to indict Obama? Not yet. But as President Trump continues to prove that Government can be beneficent, he will also slowly build the case that Obama and his cronies need to be arrested. This case will be built day by day, street corner by street corner, one person at a time.

-----

Oh, and asserting that "the swamp will drain itself" is just

(01-19-2018 02:24 AM)TooFineAPoint Wrote:  So we're both left with quite a bit of conjecture.

No we're not, the platform of the libertarian party is not conjecture, it speaks for itself - they want *free movement of people* exactly the way it sounds, except in the cases of security threats, the standard of which they conveniently do not detail.

Quote:I just think it's funny, because the Republican party talks a big game about being for minimal government and traditional family values, but I sure don't see it reflected in their platforms or actions.

Now that you mention it I haven't heard a Republican candidate actually say they stand behind this since about the mid nineties. They don't even fake the funk anymore. Ron Paul only went with them because the Libertarian party has no apparatus and would be a third (i.e., guaranteed losing) party.

Quote:Look at Trump having to fight most of his own party almost as much as the Dems.

Yes, mainly because both the Dems and GOPe wants open borders for cheap labor, and in the case of Democrats, easy votes. Trump is the first politician since Tancredo (a minor candidate back in 2008) to actually push back on this nonsense.

Quote:Since when do political party platforms actually stand for what an ideological group of people actually believe?

I like Leonard's distinction. Modern neckbeard leftertarians may want the kind of open borders that make us all shudder.

It's telling that so much of those young college "libertarians" who supported Ron Paul in the 2008 primaries immediately left and voted for Obama once Paul lost. The only reason they were interested at all was the possibility of legal weed.

Of all parties though, I think the Libertarians drink more of their own kool aid than anyone else. Then you have otherwise lucid libtardian asshats like Shapiro who think getting rid of H1B visas would be bad because it "limits choice" - forgetting that the choice of H1B visas didn't even exist until billionaire lobbyists pushed it through in 1989. But he would feel better following some sophomore year poly sci playbook than actually recognizing what's causing the harm.

Libertarians are like so many other "conservatives" who don't believe in the border, citizenship or any real sense of nationalism. Without those basics, you don't even have a country left let alone something to conserve.

(01-19-2018 09:55 AM)MMX2010 Wrote:  

Suits Wrote:Agreed. If this was a game changer, why not sit back, pour yourself a beer and wait for the deep swamp state to drain itself?

Why spend time on the Internet repeatedly posting "this is big!"?

Because the media is complicit in covering up all Democrat crimes.

And because this particular string of crimes leads to one important target: Barrack Obama.

Are the American people psychologically ready to indict Obama? Not yet. But as President Trump continues to prove that Government can be beneficent, he will also slowly build the case that Obama and his cronies need to be arrested. This case will be built day by day, street corner by street corner, one person at a time.

-----

Oh, and asserting that "the swamp will drain itself" is just

OK, so the media is complicit in covering it all up, so the guilty democrats are just going to skate.

Great.

Remind me what the point is of posting "this is big!" every time something that would lead to anything doesn't actually occur?

At this point, what difference does it make?

(01-19-2018 09:55 AM)MMX2010 Wrote:  ...
Because the media is complicit in covering up all Democrat crimes.

And because this particular string of crimes leads to one important target: Barrack Obama.

Are the American people psychologically ready to indict Obama? Not yet. But as President Trump continues to prove that Government can be beneficent, he will also slowly build the case that Obama and his cronies need to be arrested. This case will be built day by day, street corner by street corner, one person at a time....

1) Obama was just a cog. He was not some grand marxist architect. He was a stage-boy. Nothing else. Going after him will achieve what? Pay attention. Trump is not going to put the first Black President in jail. Obama knows this, and for this reason would not roll on anyone, even if arrested, which is never going to happen anyway.

2) "When you say "day by day", you realise that there is a finite number of these days left in Trump's administration, right? Even if charges were laid five minutes from now, do you realise how long it would take to wind through the (crooked) courts? I'm assuming you comprehend that as soon as the next Democrat or Republicuck is elected then all charges will be dropped and all convictions (if any have even been made) will see pardons quietly handed out.

Demographics. Degradation. Collusion. Corruption. None of these things are yet on the retreat. Do you understand that you are currently milling around half-court mulling over plays, apparently unaware that there is a shot-clock ticking down?

p.s. I get that Trump is doing well on economic issues. That's super. Unfortunately what that does is send everyone back to sleep while the vastly more important issues of systemic degradation continue apace.

I would be willing to take a bet with anyone who thinks that Obama will go to jail within the next 5-10 years. I'd bet longer but I would probably forget by then.

Obama isn't going to jail.

Hillary and Bill won't go to jail either.

You don't get those levels of power and not have any special privileges, you also create safety valves where you can release pressure to keep your own ass safe.

Those folks won't get in trouble but many senior bureaucrats and Government hacks who are career D.C. swampers will be in a position to take the fall.

Assistant or head DOJ and FBI people who are running departments but are not known names will be the ones to take the fall. These are the people that enable day to day corruption in D.C. and getting rid of them will be a next benefit for the culture of D.C. long term.

You also have hacks like Huma Abedin whom, if anything circles around HRC, will be the person to fall. She rolled the dice to gain the most from the spoils of HRC and she will be the one to take the fall if SHTF.

Things will get real if any Executive heads from Obama's team get taken out, that is the closest to Obama they can get.

(01-19-2018 10:52 AM)Repo Wrote:  I would be willing to take a bet with anyone who thinks that Obama will go to jail within the next 5-10 years. I'd bet longer but I would probably forget by then.

(01-19-2018 11:06 AM)kosko Wrote:  Obama isn't going to jail.

Hillary and Bill won't go to jail either.

But guys....

..."this is big."

Is this what’s in the memo?:

https://truepundit.com/exclusive-six-u-s...n-for-nsa/

A lot to digest.

One item in there, that Trump junior meeting with the Russian lawyer looked to be an FBI sting to frame the Trump campaign.

Suits Wrote:OK, so the media is complicit in covering it all up, so the guilty democrats are just going to skate.

Great.

Remind me what the point is of posting "this is big!" every time something that would lead to anything doesn't actually occur?

At this point, what difference does it make?

It makes a world of difference. Just like there's a world of difference between "Nothing is occurring" and "Plenty of things are occurring."

But I already explained to you exactly what is occurring. And you totally didn't get it.

Do you want me to repeat myself, even though you totally didn't get it the first time?

(01-19-2018 02:24 AM)TooFineAPoint Wrote:  ....
Yes, like you guys I think the libertarian party is a joke.

There are several reasons that the most popular libertarian figure in modern America (Ron Paul) chose to run as a Republican instead of a libertarian.

The Mises Institute which I quoted in reply to Leonard is one of (if not the most) important libertarian organization in the USA. Maybe they share that with Reason, but for a while anyway their website traffic was nuts.

The article title for those who missed it was "Open Borders Are An Assault On Private Property".

The term open borders in the sense you guys are using it is basically the forcing (or at least heavily aiding and abetting) of foreigners into a country in a way that allows the migrant's supposed "rights" to trump those of the host culture. That's something quite different than not stifling the free movement of people.

The views most often expressed on the forum are pretty close (as far as I can tell) to how one would protect one's own house -- you get to decide who comes and goes. But you don't say "fuck it, none of my family ever get to leave, and we shall never receive visitors". Each movement is weighed for benefits.

In that sense, this is much closer to what the Mises folks are saying than this supposed libertarian open-borders boogeyman.

You can't have it both ways. You can't say that "American libertarians are for open borders" (in the negative way you mean it), then turn around and say I don't speak for all libertarians when I disagree. You also don't speak for all libertarians.

So we're both left with quite a bit of conjecture.

I just think it's funny, because the Republican party talks a big game about being for minimal government and traditional family values, but I sure don't see it reflected in their platforms or actions.

Look at Trump having to fight most of his own party almost as much as the Dems.

Since when do political party platforms actually stand for what an ideological group of people actually believe?

I like Leonard's distinction. Modern neckbeard leftertarians may want the kind of open borders that make us all shudder.

What you say may be a nice distinction to make, but good luck trying t get actual Libertarians outside of Mises Institute to even consider it. I have known a half-dozen Libertarian party members, people in leadership roles in the state party at different times. Each one has instantly and reflexively accused me of hating "brown people" as the single and only reason that I could possibly oppose doing away with borders entirely.

Mind you, these people each had been personal friends. But touch on the immigration issue in any way that doesn't support tearing down borders and you're a racist and a 'statist'. There is no sense of proportion, no tolerance or consideration of other views, and no good-faith willingness to discuss the issue at all. Only ridiculously exaggerated name-calling.

Immigration to a Libertarian is like abortion to a Democrat: a pillar of their political religion that one must accept and never dare question. There can be no compromises, no hairsplitting, no consideration of other points of view, there can only be instant knee-jerk unthinking condemnation in the strongest, most malicious possible terms of those who dissent in any way with dogma.

This is why I don't trust Libertarians despite sharing a lot of their economic views. They're nuts.

In what sounds like the preamble to a joke (but isn't a joke at all), an Australian guy, a Chinese guy, a Black Canadian guy, and one American citizen are wholly skeptical of President Trump's hyper-long-term operation to indict many members of multiple American intelligence communities.

Should I explain the situation in words they'll understand, or should I not?

Alsos Wrote:This is why I don't trust Libertarians despite sharing a lot of their economic views. They're nuts.

The CATO Institute is a leading American libertarian think tank. Asking libertarians how many Mexicans work for the CATO Institute is funny.

Snowden is all about getting the memo released, and says Trump should veto the FISA renewal if it turns out its recent renewal was based partly on acts of fraud and abuse.

If it gets released and concerns turn out to be true, benefit. If it's released and it turns out the Congressmen were full of it, also a benefit. Fools shouldn't lie about stuff like that, but I don't think that they are.

It will be fantastic to get this memo released, but regardless, Trump will not veto FISA even if there were abuses since on balance, it can be used to catch terrorists. By extension, FISA benefits Israel. Anyone being honest with the facts and not paranoid about being called "anti Semitic" knows that AIPAC owns every president since the organization was founded. They will never allow FISA to get kneecapped if it puts Israel even slightly more at risk.