Post: #201

(06-09-2013 04:04 PM)Samseau Wrote:  Your analogy is bad.

The analogy between Catholics and Prostatants is akin to Sunni and Shia Muslims.

Christianity is to Islam as to what Democracy is to Fascism.

Historically and conceptually speaking, Christianity is nothing more than an offshoot of Judaism in much the same way that Islam is naught more than an offshoot of Judeo-Christendom with Arab sensibilities shoved in.

*Perhaps Communism vs Fascism is a more appropriate analogy for the Christianity vs. Islam debate given that both are totalitarian in that they are both rigidly dogmatic and controlling of human behavior.

This irrational and historically inaccurate belief that Islam and Christendom are diametrically opposed is hilarious. Diametric opposition would be secularism and science against faith and religion.

That is the real issue. Fundamentalist Islam is incompatible with Western society in that it rejects the secularist rationalism that forms the basis modern industrial democracy. However, this is much the same with Fundamental Christians or Fundamental religious people of any stripe.

Given this shared heritage, the integration and eventual secularization of Catholics is quite the apt analogy for the Muslim experience with the west. The Muslims are not integrating into Christianity, they are integrating into secularism.

Post: #202

(06-09-2013 01:33 PM)Mekorig Wrote:  And that is what is happening right now. Link

Is is not the same levels of the late XIV, early XX Century, but there is a surge of Europeans migrating to South and Central America right now.

Don't forget Africa.

Post: #203

If you ask me, the massive flood of Catholics changed America for the worse (America is nowhere near as secular as most Protestant countries and I blame immigration for that), so that's hardly a convincing argument for me. But even if you disagree with that, there's plenty of stuff to point out...

You can list tons of groups that have assimilated successfully but you can also list groups that have not. For example, we've had gypsies for 500 years now and there's been no assimilation whatsoever. Sure, occasionally there's a gypsy that will go to school and get a job... and they cast him out. Get a job or put your children to school and none of your relatives will ever speak to you again. A lot of them are that insular. Nobody has managed to assimilate a gypsy minority of any meaningful size even after hundreds of years or even a millenium.

Much of the Muslim immigration we're seeing is just as insular as that and the complete lack of historical precedent of happy coexistence is hardly promising. Just because one group managed to integrate to American society despite (vastly exaggerated) prejudices doesn't mean every immigrant group to every society will always assimilate, in fact we even have a few recent examples of Muslim immigrants destroying a secular/Christian society (Kosovo, Lebanon etc). Of course I'm not predicting that all of Europe will turn into Lebanon but really, pointing out an exceptionally successfull mass immigration project as the sole comparison is just as stupid as pointing out Lebanon.

Really, in general rapid demographic changes have meant massive trouble and mass immigration to the US is the rare exception. The United States is an exceptional project of populating an almost empty continent in a few hundred years and it's still underpopulated compared to Europe. Things are very unlikely to work out like that anywhere else and perhaps not in the US for much longer either.

Quote:This thread makes me laugh. Everything that is said about Muslims right now is no different from what Americans

Pretty much any comparison to American experience is laughably useless because America is such an exceptional country. A bit over 200 years ago when the US was founded it was a few small states with a population of 2 million people. 200 years later it's a contintent with over 300 million people. These are staggeringly unique circumstances in the history of the entire world, there has never ever been anything similar and there never will unless we find more planets to colonize. Yes, give me an empty continent to rule and I'll give away land to settle it...

Sometimes I think this whole immigration mess is caused by a stupid attempt to imitate America. 200 years ago the US was an obscure tiny country that few people in continental Europe had even heard of, now it's a superpower and that's obviously thanks to some rapid pumping up the population. Now our elites want to imitate this success and invite hundreds of millions of people but they forget that we don't have the empty continent to settle. We try to imitate a success story based on circumstances that have no comparison in world history and the result is total disaster.

Post: #204

(06-09-2013 05:00 PM)Derpface200 Wrote:  

(06-09-2013 04:04 PM)Samseau Wrote:  Your analogy is bad.

The analogy between Catholics and Prostatants is akin to Sunni and Shia Muslims.

Christianity is to Islam as to what Democracy is to Fascism.

Historically and conceptually speaking, Christianity is nothing more than an offshoot of Judaism in much the same way that Islam is naught more than an offshoot of Judeo-Christendom with Arab sensibilities shoved in.

That's like saying because all human beings evolved from a common ancestor we should therefore all get along because we all have a common ancestor.

Quote:*Perhaps Communism vs Fascism is a more appropriate analogy for the Christianity vs. Islam debate given that both are totalitarian in that they are both rigidly dogmatic and controlling of human behavior.

Christianity, properly applied, has nothing controlling about human behavior.

Turn the other cheek, give expecting nothing thereof, forgive and forget... there's nothing totalitarian about Christianity. In fact, Christianity is anti-totalitarian, which is why all democratic movements come from Christian countries.

Quote:This irrational and historically inaccurate belief that Islam and Christendom are diametrically opposed is hilarious. Diametric opposition would be secularism and science against faith and religion.

That is the real issue. Fundamentalist Islam is incompatible with Western society in that it rejects the secularist rationalism that forms the basis modern industrial democracy. However, this is much the same with Fundamental Christians or Fundamental religious people of any stripe.

Wrong again. The scientific movement was born out of Christian nations, and, in particular, the most famous scientists who've ever lived have always been die-hard Christians.

Quote:Given this shared heritage, the integration and eventual secularization of Catholics is quite the apt analogy for the Muslim experience with the west. The Muslims are not integrating into Christianity, they are integrating into secularism.

There is nothing secular about Western Europe or America today, no matter how much the people on the left would like to delude themselves.

Democracy is a Christian tradition. "All men are equal in the eyes of God." In fact, no one would even know what democracy is if it wasn't for the Byzantine Christian scholars who preserved Ancient Greek classics that were later taken over and preserved to Europe during the 13th century by other Catholic monks.

Moreover, monestaries have been run with democractic traditions for the last 2000 years, on top of the fact that the entire modern university system is designed on how ancient monistaries organized themselves.

Science is also a Christian tradition. "The Truth will set you free." Every scientific breakthrough, achievement, and movement came from a Christian country in the past 500 years. Islam produced nothing, and it actively snuffed any scientific thinking.

"BUT WHAT ABOUT GALILEO?" you're probably thinking, and guess what - one dude who got silenced is nothing compared to the hundreds of thousands who were silenced under Islamic, Communist, or other Fascist regimes of history.

Finally, FREEDOM FOR WOMEN, including their right to dress and voice an open opinion, is strictly a Christian tradition and has never originated from any other religion in the world. Again, it goes back to "All men are equal in the eyes of God." Men being synonymous for all of human-kind, of course.

Your ignorance of history and Christianity is deep, I strongly recommend you do some reading on Ancient Christians to see how they actually lived and compare that to Ancient Muslims. If you have even half of an open mind you'll be forced to conclude that Christians and Muslims are a separate culture so opposite it would be like combining Tigers and Lions in a cage and expecting them to get along with each other.

Post: #205

(06-09-2013 06:36 PM)Athlone McGinnis Wrote:  

(06-09-2013 01:33 PM)Mekorig Wrote:  And that is what is happening right now. Link

Is is not the same levels of the late XIV, early XX Century, but there is a surge of Europeans migrating to South and Central America right now.

Don't forget Africa.

This trend is actually accelerating and Europe's brightest most mobile are jetting out to old colonial outposts, even as far as Africa.

Interestingly enough, smart migrants from third world countries are not moving to Europe either, they're moving to the Americas, and Australia., Europe is taking in peasantry from these same developing countries to fill in the gaps, while simultaneously losing it's smartest people.

This is the reality of the globalized world of 2013.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/global-develop...-recession

Post: #206

(06-09-2013 08:41 PM)Samseau Wrote:  That's like saying because all human beings evolved from a common ancestor we should therefore all get along because we all have a common ancestor.

No, I was using it to make a point that they aren't that dissimilar and that the socio-economics would cause eventual integration. Islam is a cousin of Christianity, not a space alien death cult.

A particularly good example would be the Catholic insurgents in Ireland known as the Irish Republican Army. Back in the 70s and 80s the Irish were launching a bombing and terror campaign against the British that made the immediate violent effects of Jihad against Europe look like a wet fart. Hell, 50,000 people were killed or injured in that spat.

The complaints levied were much the same. Brits complained about how the Irish were secret Marxists, swarthy men out to steal Britannia's fair maidens but defensive of their own, and the religious differences would never be resolved, they were out to steal jobs/rob upstanding Brits.

Ireland and UK are more or less fine these days now too. No need for genocide or ethnic fascism like many in this thread advocate either.

Quote:Christianity, properly applied, has nothing controlling about human behavior.

And who determines what is proper? It's most definitely not you.

In addition, that was the crux of the violence between Protestants and Catholics. Yet when people became more secular and decided to not keep religion as sacrosanct above all else, they got along. What a surprise.

Quote:Turn the other cheek, give expecting nothing thereof, forgive and forget... there's nothing totalitarian about Christianity.

There certainly is. However, we could be here arguing ad nauseam about it given that the bible contains a truly staggering amount of internal contradictions.

One of the interesting examples I remember off hand from my days as a theology student was Numbers 16 where upon Yahweh smites Korah, Dathan, and Abiram for declaring that all men were holy, inherently worthy of respect, and should make their own decisions. That there is the foundation of modern western democracy, crushed.

In any case, I would simply note

Quote:In fact, Christianity is anti-totalitarian, which is why all democratic movements come from Christian countries.

Fascism, Communism, and Imperialism came out of Christian countries too so what's your point? Furthermore, the Divine Right to Rule of Kings and papal authority were Christian dogma for centuries until the closet secularists and deists started to dominate academia during the renaissance.

Also, if you really wanted to trace Western democracy to its true intellectual roots, we should be giving praise to Zeus and Aristotle rather than Jesus.

I also did not know that Africa, East Asia, and India's democratic movements were pre-dominantly Christian either. Thanks for completely re-writing the history books. Yep, those Taiwanese/South Korean Buddhists were definitely secret Christians.

I am rather amused by your previous comments about how I didn't know my history or bible.

Quote:Wrong again. The scientific movement was born out of Christian nations,

Erm, the Renaissance was based off of Greek culture, so I guess what you're really saying is "Hail Zeus."

Also, what meaning does it have that the scientific revolution came out of Christian nations when everyone involved in the revolution was busy wanking off to Socrates and Aristotle and Euclid rather than St. Peter and Jesus?

Quote:and, in particular, the most famous scientists who've ever lived have always been die-hard Christians.

Can you prove this? I recall that Isaac Newton was obsessed with biblical conspiracy theories, but I can't recall anyone of the other great thinkers who were hardcore believers.

You also must remember that the Renaissance came from the Socratic and Aristotlean Greek heritage not the Aquinian Christian heritage. In essence, the Renaissance man was a rejection of Christianity in favor of the Greek empiricist/rationalist mindset. Granted, many early scientists were still hardcore believers or hid their true feelings on religion to avoid becoming outcasts but given the philosophical underpinnings of the Renaissance, claiming that scientific method and Christianity are intrinsically linked is as hilariously cognitively dissonant as China still calling itself Communist or a Feminist saying she's for equality.

Quote:There is nothing secular about Western Europe or America today, no matter how much the people on the left would like to delude themselves.

And what do you mean by "nothing secular" about Western Europe or America? Or do you live in a fundamentalist bubble?

Quote:Democracy is a Christian tradition.

Incorrect. Democracy is a Greco-Roman tradition. You yourself acknowledge this two pages later. Divine Right of Kings to Rule is a Christian tradition however.

Quote:"All men are equal in the eyes of God."

Romans 2:11 refers to moral judgement by the Lord. You're reading a political treatise into a work that is decidedly not a political treatise.

Quote:In fact, no one would even know what democracy is if it wasn't for the Byzantine Christian scholars who preserved Ancient Greek classics that were later taken over and preserved to Europe during the 13th century by other Catholic monks.

So, again, you are admitting that Christianity has nothing to do with Western Democracy and that we owe it all to the Greeks and Romans. Gotcha.

In any case, I'd like to correct your historical revisionism by pointing out that the vast majority of Greek texts during the Middle Ages actually came from contact between the Umayyad Caliphate and the Holy Roman Empire around 700 AD in Spain. The mass influx of Byzantine scholars to the West didn't truly begin in earnest until the Ottoman Turks repulsed the Crusaders and began its final siege of Constantinople some 700 years later.

Also, the dude who single handedly preserved Aristotle for the ages was a Muslim by the name of Averroes. For anyone who has read Aristotle, we know him as the Commentator, the most respected translator and analyzer of his works ever.

http://www.neh.gov/humanities/2011/novem...philosophy

So, if your metric for relation to western democracy is related to transmission of the Greco-Roman classics, I guess its a toss up between Justinian and Al-Hakam II that we should be giving our undying praise too. -___-

Quote:Moreover, monestaries have been run with democractic traditions for the last 2000 years, on top of the fact that the entire modern university system is designed on how ancient monistaries organized themselves.

Incorrect. Whilst Cathedral schools were firmly religious institutions, the Medieval Universities were far more complex. In Italy, the universities were paid and run by the students which lead to far more secular affairs such as law and finance. In England, the universities were run by the Crown which also lead to a more secular approach. What you are considering are the French/Parisian universities which reported directly the Chancellor of the Diocese.

In any case, Aristotle and the natural sciences dominated the Medieval University

Quote:Science is also a Christian tradition. "The Truth will set you free."

Nope. The scientific method as we understand it is an Aristotlean tradition. Five minutes with google would reveal this to you let alone a fancy ass edumacation.

Quote:Every scientific breakthrough, achievement, and movement came from a Christian country in the past 500 years.

And if you look at the whole of human history you'll see that intellectual discovery in the West is a historical aberration that appears to be correcting itself as India and China rise in power.

That being said, I'd also like to see your logic determining a causal link between scientific discovery and Christianity. Or are you one of those folks who has never studied statistics and believes that rain causes lighting?

Quote:Islam produced nothing, and it actively snuffed any scientific thinking.

Bar the Chinese empire, the Islamic Caliphate was the center of science and learning in the Mediterranean world until the Mongols wrecked their shit. I would imagine that "90% of population dies due to pony riding yellow men" would have relegated Europe to third world shit hole status for the next few hundred years too.

Also, I would note that the Early Christian monks burned any Hellenic works they found too irreconcilable with Church doctrine.

Quote:"BUT WHAT ABOUT GALILEO?" you're probably thinking, and guess what - one dude who got silenced is nothing compared to the hundreds of thousands who were silenced under Islamic, Communist, or other Fascist regimes of history.

Galileo was arrested for personally offending the pope, not because of his scientific beliefs. Copernicus was the one who got the boot for disagreeing with Church doctrine.

Also, Spanish Inquisition. Toquemunda says hi.

In any regard, even if we take at face value that Christianity is the least repressive against science among the major belief doctrine (which it most definitely is not, I would give that to the Far Eastern religions) that still leaves us with the fact that Christianity and Science are ideologically opposed rather than this hilariously tenuous link you insist on drawing between Fundamentalist Christendom and the Enlightenment[/quote].

Quote:Finally, FREEDOM FOR WOMEN, including their right to dress and voice an open opinion, is strictly a Christian tradition and has never originated from any other religion in the world. Again, it goes back to "All men are equal in the eyes of God." Men being synonymous for all of human-kind, of course.

Are you posting from an alternate universe? The veiling of women was transmitted to the Islamic world via the Byzantine Christians.

1 Corinthians 11:13 Judge in yourselves: is it comely that a woman pray unto God uncovered?

1 Corinthians 15:19 And if a woman have an issue, and her issue in her flesh be blood, she shall be put apart seven days: and whosoever toucheth her shall be unclean until the even.

1 Corinthians 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.

1 Corinthians 14:35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

And this is just from Corinthians.

Quote:Your ignorance of history and Christianity is deep, I strongly recommend you do some reading on Ancient Christians to see how they actually lived and compare that to Ancient Muslims. If you have even half of an open mind you'll be forced to conclude that Christians and Muslims are a separate culture so opposite it would be like combining Tigers and Lions in a cage and expecting them to get along with each other.

Tigers and Lions in a cage. reminds me of what they said about the Irish Catholics and their war against the British Anglicans. It's such a pity that the British exterminated the Irish from the face of the eart... oh wait.

Haha.

Look, you have precisely zilch authority to lecture me given the audacity you have to claim that the Greco-Roman rationalism of the Enlightenment and Renaissance were retrenchments of Christian doctrine considering that Scorates and Aristotle were around long before the Bible.

In addition, you have also made my fucking day with hilariously gems of historical illiteracy such as "all democratic movements come from Christian nations" and what not.

It would appear that you are the one who needs to hit the books, not I.

The only thing that speaking with you has convinced me of is that the West is collapsing because its men are infected with hamsterism too.

Post: #207

Your reading comprehension is bad. Not once did I say that Christianity created democratic, scientific, or women's lib, but instead that it was the only religion to have fostered it. Without Christianity Greco-Roman culture would be completely forgotten and lost.

That single Muslim scholar you try to use an a counter-example, Averroes, means nothing because he was but an aberration of a culture that practices ignorance (i.e. Islam).

Why don't you go and re-read what I wrote above and try again.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reading_comprehension

You make other ridiculous points; I'll try to get to them once I have the time.

Post: #208

(06-09-2013 05:00 PM)Derpface200 Wrote:  Given this shared heritage, the integration and eventual secularization of Catholics is quite the apt analogy for the Muslim experience with the west. The Muslims are not integrating into Christianity, they are integrating into secularism.

I rarely saw this in my day to day interactions with Muslims growing up and I don't see it today. If they were integrating I wouldn't see their women still wearing stockings on their heads and ninja suits while they're out and about. And I don't recall that any Jewish, Catholic or Protestant girls have been killed for marrying outside of their faith.

Muslims are violently rioting in Sweden - a nation that never colonized any of their lands.

Muslims have been caught grooming young girls from other religions to become teenage whores.

Muslims living in the West have traveled to Afghanistan to fight against the soldiers of the Western nations that welcomed them and their families.

Has any other religious group done anything even close to this?

Once Google's self-driving cars have replaced the taxi cab I no longer see a need for Muslims to immigrate here in large numbers.

Post: #209

As for the great Islamic philosopher, Averroës:

Quote:Supposedly in response to the caliph’s complaint about the obscurity of Aristotle’s writings, Averroës devoted much of his scholarly efforts to a series of commentaries on Aristotle, producing both brief epitomes and exhaustive, line-by-line studies. These commentaries would eventually take on a life of their own, but the most striking feature of Averroës’s career is how little influence he had on the Islamic world of his time, despite his obvious brilliance. Many of his works no longer survive in Arabic at all, but only in Latin or Hebrew translation. Indeed, even during his life, Averroës became a controversial figure. For in 1195, when the then-reigning caliph felt the need to make concessions to conservative religious figures, he banished Averroës to the small Spanish town of Lucena, and ordered that his philosophical works be burned.

http://www.neh.gov/humanities/2011/novem...philosophy

And the lulz just keep coming. The more research one does on Islam, the more dirt they uncover.

Averroës was born in Spain, so although it was under Islamic control at the time it is obvious of the Christian influence on Averroës that allowed him to think critically and openly.

The fact that he is unheard of in today's Islamic society while the West preserves him tells us everything we need to know. He was basically a Christian in spirit even if he lived in an oppressive Islamic society.

Post: #210

(06-11-2013 04:36 PM)Samseau Wrote:  Averroës was born in Spain, so although it was under Islamic control at the time it is obvious of the Christian influence on Averroës that allowed him to think critically and openly.

The fact that he is unheard of in today's Islamic society while the West preserves him tells us everything we need to know. He was basically a Christian in spirit even if he lived in an oppressive Islamic society.

I don't think the Christians had much influence on Southern Spain, where the Moors were based until they undertook the Reconquista and took back Andalucia from them.

Averroes was a Moor through and through.

If you've visited Sevilla, Cordoba and Granada, you just have to take a look around to see the huge influences of the Moors on Spain. And also the Spanish language itself.

Quote:Averroes had a greater impact on Western European circles and he has been described as the "founding father of secular thought in Western Europe"

I took that from Wikipedia, but the quote cites numerous sources.

I find it difficult to believe that the Moors were more intolerant and oppressive than the Catholics in Spain with the Dominican Friars who persecuted people and hung them from racks on a whim.

Post: #211

Quote:Romans 2:11 refers to moral judgement by the Lord. You're reading a political treatise into a work that is decidedly not a political treatise.

As if a man can make political decisions without his ethical biases influencing him. It is not a coincidence that Christianity preserved the idea of Democracy when all other societies burned any books talking about it, because the Christians believe that "All men are equal in the eyes of God."

Quote:Nope. The scientific method as we understand it is an Aristotlean tradition.

5 mins of googling and all I found out was that 99% of Aristotle's "scientific" discoveries have been discredited, along with tons of ridiculous claims he made such as men having more teeth than women.

The scientific method is based on empirical falsification... and the word falsification wasn't even properly understood until Popper coined the term in the 20th century. Empiricism became popular with Bacon in the Renaissance. I don't really consider the Ancients to have been scientific.

Quote:claiming that scientific method and Christianity are intrinsically linked is as hilariously cognitively dissonant as China still calling itself Communist or a Feminist saying she's for equality.

Not even close. Thomas Aquinas wrote volumes on how discovered truth through science was nothing more than revealing the word of God, and the Catholic Church to this day holds Aquinas' book "Summa Theologica" as second only to the Bible.

The fact is, it is a culture which consistently creates amazing thinkers. The Christian culture, just as the Greek and Roman culture once did, has shown to do just that, whereas other cultures do not.

Blindly hating on the religion which birthed the way you think is like hating on your mom or dad.

Quote:The complaints levied were much the same. Brits complained about how the Irish were secret Marxists, swarthy men out to steal Britannia's fair maidens but defensive of their own, and the religious differences would never be resolved, they were out to steal jobs/rob upstanding Brits.

Actually, both the Brits and Irish were Christians, just like both the Shia and Sunni are Muslims.

Do you have trouble grasping categorical differences? Should I draw a venn diagram?

Quote:Also, what meaning does it have that the scientific revolution came out of Christian nations when everyone involved in the revolution was busy wanking off to Socrates and Aristotle and Euclid rather than St. Peter and Jesus?

And why weren't Islamic, Asian, or African societies wanking off to Socrates, Aristotle, or Euclid?

Easy, because it was only the Christian culture which worshiped Truth as equivalent to God. When the Christians read the ancient works and realized that these men were geniuses, they dropped any pretense of the superiority of their own culture and quickly adopted what they could from the old.

"The Truth will set you free."

This is in contradistinction to Islamic societies, which believe that the Koran is the end-all-be-all and there can never be any improvements to what is written in that silly book.

Post: #212

(06-11-2013 04:53 PM)dk902 Wrote:  

(06-11-2013 04:36 PM)Samseau Wrote:  Averroës was born in Spain, so although it was under Islamic control at the time it is obvious of the Christian influence on Averroës that allowed him to think critically and openly.

The fact that he is unheard of in today's Islamic society while the West preserves him tells us everything we need to know. He was basically a Christian in spirit even if he lived in an oppressive Islamic society.

I don't think the Christians had much influence on Southern Spain, where the Moors were based until they undertook the Reconquista and took back Andalucia from them.

Except for the fact that Spain was Roman-turned-Christian before the Moors took over?

Quote:Averroes was a Moor through and through.

It seems incorrect to deny the Roman-Christian influence that was on him given his way of life, thinking, and banishment given to him by the Caliphs.

Especially when you consider that the only reason Averroes found out about Aristotle was because Spain was once a former Roman territory, which is why Aristotle was there in the first place.

Quote:

Quote:Averroes had a greater impact on Western European circles and he has been described as the "founding father of secular thought in Western Europe"

I took that from Wikipedia, but the quote cites numerous sources.

I find it difficult to believe that the Moors were more intolerant and oppressive than the Catholics in Spain with the Dominican Friars who persecuted people and hung them from racks on a whim.

I'm not sure he was that influential, but you are certainly wrong about the Moors being more tolerant than the Catholics.

The Spanish Inquisition, after all, was nothing more than a reaction to the former Islamic dominance of Spain. Since the Spanish were at war with the Muslims for almost seven centuries, it seems reasonable that they would be so angry as to kill any non-Christians on sight.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moors#Moors_of_Iberia

Quote:In 711 CE, the now Islamic Moors conquered Visigothic Christian Hispania. Their general, Tariq ibn-Ziyad, brought most of Iberia under Islamic rule in an eight-year campaign.

Quote: On January 2, 1492, the leader of the last Muslim stronghold in Granada surrendered to armies of a recently united Christian Spain (after the marriage of Ferdinand II of Aragon and Isabella I of Castile, the Catholic Monarchs). They forced the remaining Muslims and Jews to leave Spain, convert to Roman Catholic Christianity or be killed for not doing so. To exert social and religious control, in 1480, Isabella and Ferdinand agreed to allow the Inquisition in Spain.

The Inquisition was aimed mostly at Jews and Muslims who had overtly converted to Christianity but were thought to be practicing their faiths secretly. They were respectively called marranos and moriscos. The Inquisition also attacked heretics who rejected Roman Catholic orthodoxy, including alumbras, who practiced a personal mysticism or spiritualism. The latter represented a significant portion of the peasants in some territories, such as Aragon, Valencia or Andalusia. In the years from 1609 to 1614, the government expelled such subjects. The historian Henri Lapeyre estimated that this affected 300,000 out of an estimated total of 8 million inhabitants.

I agree they went overboard. But I can understand the anger.

Post: #213

(06-10-2013 04:05 PM)Samseau Wrote:  Your reading comprehension is bad. Not once did I say that Christianity created democratic, scientific, or women's lib, but instead that it was the only religion to have fostered it.

Then you essentially admit that the positive attributes of modern Western society are not ideologically related to Christianity but rather Greco-Roman rationalism. Got it.

Fuck man, I don't even know how you can legitimately declare that the Renaissance was not a move away from literalist Christianity towards secularism with a straight face.

What was this earlier BS about how Western society is Christian at its roots? I mean you could make the case for the Southern United States but I don't think fucking Sweden would be a good example of hardcore Christianity.

*Women's lib probably isn't a positive attribute lol.

(06-11-2013 04:36 PM)Samseau Wrote:  As for the great Islamic philosopher, Averroës:

Quote:Supposedly in response to the caliph’s complaint about the obscurity of Aristotle’s writings, Averroës devoted much of his scholarly efforts to a series of commentaries on Aristotle, producing both brief epitomes and exhaustive, line-by-line studies. These commentaries would eventually take on a life of their own, but the most striking feature of Averroës’s career is how little influence he had on the Islamic world of his time, despite his obvious brilliance. Many of his works no longer survive in Arabic at all, but only in Latin or Hebrew translation. Indeed, even during his life, Averroës became a controversial figure. For in 1195, when the then-reigning caliph felt the need to make concessions to conservative religious figures, he banished Averroës to the small Spanish town of Lucena, and ordered that his philosophical works be burned.

http://www.neh.gov/humanities/2011/novem...philosophy

And the lulz just keep coming. The more research one does on Islam, the more dirt they uncover.

Averroës was born in Spain, so although it was under Islamic control at the time it is obvious of the Christian influence on Averroës that allowed him to think critically and openly.

The fact that he is unheard of in today's Islamic society while the West preserves him tells us everything we need to know. He was basically a Christian in spirit even if he lived in an oppressive Islamic society.

Um, I don't think you can say that he was heavily influenced by Christianity given that the very fucking article you cited indicates that he was working on Aristotle BEFORE being banished from the Middle East to Spain.

What was that thing you said about reading comprehension?

Also, I fully admit that Averroes's banishment basically ended the Muslim world's scientific renaissance with the Mongol invasions nailing the coffin shut.

It's very similar to what almost happened with St. Aquinas in Europe, except Aquinas was able to out maneuver his political opponents and convince them that science didn't oppose the Christian faith. Also, the guy running the Mognol Horde died of a disease a month before the invasion of Europe began and the empire fractured.

History is very fascinating in that little things can have such huge impacts.

Post: #214

(06-12-2013 03:15 PM)Derpface200 Wrote:  

(06-10-2013 04:05 PM)Samseau Wrote:  Your reading comprehension is bad. Not once did I say that Christianity created democratic, scientific, or women's lib, but instead that it was the only religion to have fostered it.

Then you essentially admit that the positive attributes of modern Western society are not ideologically related to Christianity but rather Greco-Roman rationalism. Got it.

Wrong for the third time in a row? Of course they are ideologically related... that's WHY Christianity fostered ancient tradition.

Quote:Fuck man, I don't even know how you can legitimately declare that the Renaissance was not a move away from literalist Christianity towards secularism with a straight face.

The renaissance was a move alongside the Bible's teachings. That's why it happened in a Christian society, primarily amongst it's most holy members within the monasteries.

Quote:What was this earlier BS about how Western society is Christian at its roots? I mean you could make the case for the Southern United States but I don't think fucking Sweden would be a good example of hardcore Christianity.

*Women's lib probably isn't a positive attribute lol.

No one said Women's lib was positive. I'm just saying it's a result of Christian teachings. "All men are equal in the eyes of God."

And it's plain as day to see how the entire Western world is Christian... even the most atheist philosophy professors of my college taught as much.

Quote:

(06-11-2013 04:36 PM)Samseau Wrote:  As for the great Islamic philosopher, Averroës:

Quote:Supposedly in response to the caliph’s complaint about the obscurity of Aristotle’s writings, Averroës devoted much of his scholarly efforts to a series of commentaries on Aristotle, producing both brief epitomes and exhaustive, line-by-line studies. These commentaries would eventually take on a life of their own, but the most striking feature of Averroës’s career is how little influence he had on the Islamic world of his time, despite his obvious brilliance. Many of his works no longer survive in Arabic at all, but only in Latin or Hebrew translation. Indeed, even during his life, Averroës became a controversial figure. For in 1195, when the then-reigning caliph felt the need to make concessions to conservative religious figures, he banished Averroës to the small Spanish town of Lucena, and ordered that his philosophical works be burned.

http://www.neh.gov/humanities/2011/novem...philosophy

And the lulz just keep coming. The more research one does on Islam, the more dirt they uncover.

Averroës was born in Spain, so although it was under Islamic control at the time it is obvious of the Christian influence on Averroës that allowed him to think critically and openly.

The fact that he is unheard of in today's Islamic society while the West preserves him tells us everything we need to know. He was basically a Christian in spirit even if he lived in an oppressive Islamic society.

Um, I don't think you can say that he was heavily influenced by Christianity given that the very fucking article you cited indicates that he was working on Aristotle BEFORE being banished from the Middle East to Spain.

Again, the only reason he was studying Aristotle? Because he was living in an former Christian society whose norms and traditions still existed and exerted influence over him. Aristotle was a author the Christian Romans held dear and so the Islamic invaders took note of it and ordered their scribes to study it.

Quote:What was that thing you said about reading comprehension?

Yours is poor. You would flunk a proper reading comprehension test.

Quote:Also, I fully admit that Averroes's banishment basically ended the Muslim world's scientific renaissance with the Mongol invasions nailing the coffin shut.

It's very similar to what almost happened with St. Aquinas in Europe, except Aquinas was able to out maneuver his political opponents and convince them that science didn't oppose the Christian faith. Also, the guy running the Mognol Horde died of a disease a month before the invasion of Europe began and the empire fractured.

History is very fascinating in that little things can have such huge impacts.

And the reason Aquinas could convince his opponents that science did not contradict the Christian faith?

Because the passages in the Bible support the search for truth.

"The Truth Will Set You Free."

But there's nothing of the sort in the Koran. As much as you would love to hate on Christianity, it must be tough to admit that pretty much everything about yourself comes from a Christian culture and tradition.

As you grow older, you'll come to terms with it. Just like a kid who hates on his dad all the time.

Post: #215

(06-12-2013 03:34 PM)Samseau Wrote:  Wrong for the third time in a row? Of course they are ideologically related... that's WHY Christianity fostered ancient tradition.

Christianity, Judaism, and Islam all hold that the truth can be found in the pages of their holy texts.

Aristotlean rationalism holds that the truth can be uncovered through self reflection and observation of the natural world.

The epistemology for the two is completely different and contradictory.

I don't how many times I have to repeat that the scientific revolution and renaissance was academics gradually kicking the bible to the curb to fellate dead Greek men.

Quote:The renaissance was a move alongside the Bible's teachings. That's why it happened in a Christian society, primarily amongst it's most holy members within the monasteries.

Wat.

What history books are you reading? Newton, Galileo, Bacon, etc were rich landed noblemen with too much time on their hands and curious minds. You're thinking about the scholastic revolution which Aquinas took part in three centuries prior to the Renaissance, in which the clergy men went "fuck, this was a mistake; call out the Inquisition and Excommunication orders" when people started asking too many questions about the nature of god and humanity.

Quote:No one said Women's lib was positive. I'm just saying it's a result of Christian teachings. "All men are equal in the eyes of God."

:/

wut.

Quote:And it's plain as day to see how the entire Western world is Christian... even the most atheist philosophy professors of my college taught as much.

Look if you can't understand the difference between "most westerners vaguely call themselves as Christian" and "the Scientific method, democracy, and universal human rights are a humanist concept" then I don't know what to tell you.

As an example, most people aren't feminists but their logic (or rather, lack thereof) has permeated all of society. in much the same way, a mechanistic rather than theistic understanding of the universe and human nature controls our thought processes and public discourse. You don't see bible verses showing up as evidence in psychology or quantum physics papers do you?

Quote:Again, the only reason he was studying Aristotle? Because he was living in an former Christian society whose norms and traditions still existed and exerted influence over him. Aristotle was a author the Christian Romans held dear and so the Islamic invaders took note of it and ordered their scribes to study it.

Um no. The Romans held Aristotle dear BEFORE Christianity even existed. This claim is patently ridiculous.

Quote:Yours is poor. You would flunk a proper reading comprehension test.

So we've degenerated to completely baseless third grade insults that don't even bother to address the subject matter.

Quote:And the reason Aquinas could convince his opponents that science did not contradict the Christian faith?

He had more political power than Averroes did. It's as simple as that.

Look, Aquinas was eventually disgraced much like Averroes when his opponents rallied. In 1277, the Parisian Bishop Etienne Tempier delivered a 219 point defamation that the study of Averroes and Greek thinking was heretical and violated the church dogma of the omnipotence of God that pretty much crushed the Renaissance until the 1560s, three centuries later. In 1270, the Catholic hierarchy issued an order stating that anyone found discussing Aristotlean works would be outright excommunicated from Christendom.

Even during his own lifetime, Aquinas was re-assigned to dead end jobs and delivered rebukes against the tide of Averroean and Aristotlean thought he had unleashed, fearing that the logical conclusion of Greco-Roman logic (a mechanistic universe that humans could manipulate like God) would undermine the Christian faith. That's the TL;DR version of Aquinas's De unitate intellectus, contra Averroistas in which he flat out calls Aristotlean logic heretical.

Aquinas had enough power to hold off his enemies in the Church long enough to spread his ideas around. The Islamic dude didn't have enough time. In addition, the Islamic guy didn't do an abrupt face heel turn and abandon his ideas towards the end of his life.

Quote:Because the passages in the Bible support the search for truth.

"The Truth Will Set You Free."

That particular section of John 8 is Jesus speaking in riddles about who (God) sent him to earth to a crowd of Jews. It's not a discourse on epistemology in any manner.

You can't just pull random context-less quotes from the Bible and declare that they support your position while completely ignoring the rich political and socio-economic history of Medieval Europe.

Quote:But there's nothing of the sort in the Koran. As much as you would love to hate on Christianity, it must be tough to admit that pretty much everything about yourself comes from a Christian culture and tradition.

As you grow older, you'll come to terms with it. Just like a kid who hates on his dad all the time.

Everything that actually is good about the Western world comes from a rejection of the bible in favor of Greco-Roman rationalism. We could have had the scientific revolution several centuries earlier were it not for Christendom. Islam is what happens when you mix Christianity/Judaism with a crazy Arab guy with delusions of world conquest.

Of course, we'll just have to disagree given your incredible ability to perform historical revisionism. I'm done, you can go back to bashing Muslims and spewing out historical falsehoods.

It's a pity. I enjoy reading your game advice but this... eh.

(Holy shit, how can you claim that Christianity was the unique key benefactor of Greco-Roman rationalism when the Latins were fellating Socrates and Aristotle centuries before Christianity was even created? The hamster logic is just too much for me)

Post: #216

Derpface why are you talking all this College history class crap? In today's world the people doing almost all of the suicide bombing, honor killing, and hostile acts against the citizens of nations that welcomed these immigrants are followers of Mohammed.

Post: #217

(06-12-2013 04:52 PM)PoosyWrecker Wrote:  Derpface why are you talking all this College history class crap? In today's world the people doing almost all of the suicide bombing, honor killing, and hostile acts against the citizens of nations that welcomed these immigrants are followers of Mohammed.

Sad but true. Too bad the mainstream progressive governments and media are doing everything they can within their power to avoid this fact and come up with 'moral equivalency' to argue away the clear logic that undermines the fact that what's going on can't continue, or rather only can continue in increasingly fascistic and autocratic quasi-police state "democracies".

Post: #218

(05-20-2013 05:31 AM)LEMONed IScream Wrote:  Europe is the continent that was never conquered by outside forces, all of our major wars were with ourselves, nor conquered nor colonized

you mean like Atilla the Hun? I guess he doesn't count

Post: #219

Error. Will post later.

Post: #220

Muslims will outbreed the locals of whatever country they're in, consume all the welfare benefits they can and eventually turn the country into a war-torn shithole like the Middle East. But due to all the rampant political correctness we have these days nobody can do or say anything about it. Your neighborhood will be a big police state before you know it.

Post: #221

(09-06-2013 10:22 AM)Parlay44 Wrote:  Muslims will outbreed the locals of whatever country they're in, consume all the welfare benefits they can and eventually turn the country into a war-torn shithole like the Middle East. But due to all the rampant political correctness we have these days nobody can do or say anything about it. Your neighborhood will be a big police state before you know it.

Is that what happened in the US?

All muslims on welfare?

Post: #222

(09-06-2013 10:25 AM)Damedius Wrote:  

(09-06-2013 10:22 AM)Parlay44 Wrote:  Muslims will outbreed the locals of whatever country they're in, consume all the welfare benefits they can and eventually turn the country into a war-torn shithole like the Middle East. But due to all the rampant political correctness we have these days nobody can do or say anything about it. Your neighborhood will be a big police state before you know it.

Is that what happened in the US?

It's coming to that. Just look at France as an example. Their Muslim population is growing rampantly and look at all the problems they're having.

Look what pops up when you do a Google search for Muslim riots.

Post: #223

(09-06-2013 10:22 AM)Parlay44 Wrote:  Muslims will outbreed the locals of whatever country they're in, consume all the welfare benefits they can and eventually turn the country into a war-torn shithole like the Middle East. But due to all the rampant political correctness we have these days nobody can do or say anything about it. Your neighborhood will be a big police state before you know it.

This is an argument that makes the error of taking the current situation and extrapolating it with linear hyperbole into the future.

First, Muslims are not an ethnic group and they do not regularly interbreed.

There has been many times in history when the same event has been the case but there has always been changing circumstances that has sent things in another direction.

Just what "races" has been exterminated in the last 2000 years?

Post: #224

(09-06-2013 10:30 AM)Parlay44 Wrote:  It's coming to that. Just look at France as an example. Their Muslim population is growing rampantly and look at all the problems they're having.

Look what pops up when you do a Google search for Muslim riots.

That's biased depending on what you search for. Google tries to tailor it for each individual based on what they think you are looking for.

Not to mention it's biased in the first place because you are starting with muslim riots.

We have a decent sized muslim population in Canada. The last riot I can remember was over the Stanley Cup playoffs in Vancouver.

One last thing. This is a strategy of divide and conquer. Worry about the muslims and not about the people looting your country.

Post: #225

Quote:That's biased depending on what you search for. Google tries to tailor it for each individual based on what they think you are looking for.

Is it coincidence that "Muslim Riots" autocompletes with all locations in Europe?

It's true that many races are Muslims. I'm not arguing that. It's that they don't like to embrace or assimilate into the local culture. They're very adamant about preserving their old-world culture and way of life. You can't expect the world to cater to you because you need to wash your feet and pray 5 times a day. Maybe things will change after a few generations. Maybe they won't. We will see.

Eventually the locals will push back against it or just leave the country altogether.