Post: #1

A couple threads have touched on this but I couldn't find one specific thread about the demographic change in Europe relating to muslims. I will say that I am not a religious man and have nothing against any specific religion but I can't help but think there will be a clash in Western Europe within a couple-few decades due to the rising Muslim population.

Also, what sort of opportunity does this provide for somebody? There has to be serious financial gain to be had when half a continent flips religions within a century and it seems like the growth is parabolic at this point.

On the surface it may look as if Christianity is slowly being wiped out. Modern day muslims are certainly more aggressive, and lets face it, more Alpha, than most Christians. In the western world we have feminism running rampant and government subsidies for anyone who wants them. IMO those are some major factors in decreasing the birth rate. How do you guys think handouts effect immigrants? I'm sure there is disparity in families adapting/conforming to local culture when working hard with no safety net vs receiving handouts.

I guess the joke would be on the feminists though. If they think the western world is keeping them down just wait until their grandchildren live in Islamic dominated countries.

I have been interested in this topic for a while then today somebody sent me this video that starts at 0:43. Its a bit of a propaganda film but how accurate do you guys think the estimates are? And the result? Probably eventual civil war of some sort.

Hopefully we can keep this from going into some sort of religious debate, especially on a forum like this.

Post: #2

There will be no civil war.

Like the story between Homo neanderthalensis and Homo Sapiens, they were simply outbred and some absorbed.
The "battle" between Christianity and Islam is ridiculous and I don't see the fear.

Islams and Christians will simply form a new culture.

Post: #3

If you look at it from a boiled frog perspective, it's pretty much an insoluble problem. I agree with above respondent that there won't be civil wars unless poverty increased greatly. The boiled frog doesn't even knows it's being boiled, it happens too slowly.

I think the stereotypical negative view of Islamic immigrants is that they view Western countries as easy pickings, places where stupid people don't guard their women and give away free money. therefore it's OK to be aggressive with the women and sponge off the government. I don't know if it's true because I live in California, where Mexican immigrants are pretty similar to the working class grandfather I had, but that's the story I hear.

The reason there's no solution is that the open-mindedness on which the Western country based its innovation/success on won't assume parasitism or bad-faith ( "suckers deserve to get fleeced.").

Until the parasitism reached a critical mass where it undermines everyday life.

By then, candidates running for office need the swing votes of the immigrants, and they kowtow to them in order to keep their perch at the top. It's too late. In the USA, this has worked in favor of the liberal politicians I favor: Mexicans, after decades of the slimy oligarchy ruling Mexico, are suspect of the ruling class. This means the Republicans got defeated in the last presidential election. Republicans immediately changed their tune on immigration when it was clear they could not compete with the Democrats while maintaining a position of strictly limiting Mexican immigration.

Remember the people that rule make their decisions based on their OWN benefit, not on the benefit or lack thereof to the nation.

People elect politicians, but politicians are always voting for THEMSELVES.

i don't think any society with the short-term view of capitalism can stop this type of "takeover". The rich that rule will always have their protected enclaves, and incidents such as Boehner's daughter marrying someone of a different race will be rare.

Unless you're under, say, 25, we'll all be dead before serious inroads are made in enforcing any wacky religious nuttiness in Western countries. It may never happen. Islamic kids may decide their parents are nuts. It's happening with Christianity in the USA if you look at the US Census reports of how many people report having "no religion." From 7% in 1990 to 15% in 2000. The benefits of science, wealth, and alternates to pre-science Paleolithic belief systems geradually erodes the recruiting power of religion.
Probably everyone you know takes some kind of drug or supplement that they feel is beneficial. In contrast, how many that you know claim a "miracle cure" from religion?

Post: #4

survival of the fittest. trading a lower living standard for a higher number of children will most certainly always out-compete a high tech culture with a low number of children, when the high tech isn't used to reduce the competitors or acquire more resources.

Post: #5

(05-19-2013 08:13 AM)iknowexactly Wrote:  Islamic kids may decide their parents are nuts. It's happening with Christianity in the USA if you look at the US

Serious truth right there. Most of my friends who grew up religious, and still are somewhat, will opening admit that it is hard to believe anymore. They nearly admit that they live in denial.

Post: #6

I think its as much a racial thing as a religious one. I mean, whites and blacks are in name of the same religion (for the most part). The elites pit the poor whites against the non-whites, using race as an excuse for class. That's why you have parties like UKIP gaining steam, not blatent like the BNP, but not sell outs like Labour. If there wasn't this demographic schism, I'd consider moving to UK, but between the arab underclass, the south asian underclass, and the white underclass, along with the Guy Fawkes anarchist, wouldn't suprise me if the royals end up with their heads on a stake.

Post: #7

People have short memories. This is just history repeating itself.

Like feminism, multiculturalism and rampant immigration has only been possible as a result of existing prosperity and sloth. The Euro is is on borrowed time though, and with that you are not just going to see countries isolated, you are going to see massive political and social upheaval when their economies take a hit. When your kids are hungry and you cant find work, the last thing you are going to be happy to see is some foreigner in your soup kitchen.

Nationalism is on the rise in Europe, and with that will come conflict and potentially civil war. The civil rights movement is a baby, European cultures are highly developed and entrenched over hundreds of years.

The shit will hit the fan. There will be no Islamic Europe.

Post: #8

Delete

Post: #9

WestHunter on the Roman Empire:

Quote:...Peter Frost describes essentially the same process in the Roman Empire with its Pax Romana. Here again a central government with courts and constabulary shaped a new version of human who was peaceful and law abiding and worked hard. Frost also describes the reaction of this new version of human to the Barbarian invasions:

Nonetheless, when Rome faltered in the fifth century it did so as never before. Earlier, the third century had seen a similar crisis: civil war, foreign invasion, return of brigandage, and steep economic decline. Yet Rome fought its way back and reasserted its authority. There was no such response in the fifth century. Instead, the crisis was met with a strange mixture of complacency and willful naiveté.

We cannot understand this change without considering the ideology that now shaped the Roman worldview, i.e., all humans share the same potential for peaceful and submissive behavior. This was largely true among the pacified populations inside the empire’s borders. Outside, it was largely false. Tragically so.

Thinking about the response of the pacified and submission Roman population to barbarian invaders immediately brings to mind the response of contemporary North Americans and Atlantic Europeans to barbarian invaders. It reads just the same: “welcome new neighbor!”

What about the Eastern empire? They kept the barbarians out for a few centuries longer in the European half, but accounts of the loss of the Asian provinces show the Clark/Frost pattern, a pacified submissive population hardly contesting the invasion of Islam (Jenkins 2008, 2010). The new neighbors simply walked in and took over.

As the apocryphal Twain quote goes: History doesn't repeat itself, but it does rhyme.

It's quite eerie, really.

Post: #10

(05-19-2013 09:54 AM)Hooligan Harry Wrote:  People have short memories. This is just history repeating itself.

Like feminism, multiculturalism and rampant immigration has only been possible as a result of existing prosperity and sloth. The Euro is is on borrowed time though, and with that you are not just going to see countries isolated, you are going to see massive political and social upheaval when their economies take a hit. When your kids are hungry and you cant find work, the last thing you are going to be happy to see is some foreigner in your soup kitchen.

Nationalism is on the rise in Europe, and with that will come conflict and potentially civil war. The civil rights movement is a baby, European cultures are highly developed and entrenched over hundreds of years.

The shit will hit the fan. There will be no Islamic Europe.

Guys like Anders Brevik will lead a nationalistic front in twenty years once he gets out of jail and Islamic population hits critical mass.

According to Brevik's old blog, he expects Islamic violence to ramp up in the next 20-60 years once they get to the 60% population mark. This 60% mark will be hit in cities like Marseilles very soon.

Yes, there will be civil war as well, because Islamic people's are extremely violent and will kill until they get their way. That's why Arab countries fall into violent revolutions every 30-50 years or so, it's just built into their culture and religion.

The only problem is that Muslims are completely inferior when it comes down to fighting. How are they going to take down a government that stops giving them welfare checks? What will they do when they can no longer feed 8 of their children?

Pretty much the entire world right now is riding on Western wealth. Once the west goes, I expect to see stone age levels of violence.

Post: #11

And for the guys who think this won't affect them: Think again. Political changes will come within the next 30 years as Muslims become a major force in democratic elections.

Post: #12

(05-19-2013 09:54 AM)Hooligan Harry Wrote:  People have short memories. This is just history repeating itself.

Like feminism, multiculturalism and rampant immigration has only been possible as a result of existing prosperity and sloth. The Euro is is on borrowed time though, and with that you are not just going to see countries isolated, you are going to see massive political and social upheaval when their economies take a hit. When your kids are hungry and you cant find work, the last thing you are going to be happy to see is some foreigner in your soup kitchen.

Nationalism is on the rise in Europe, and with that will come conflict and potentially civil war. The civil rights movement is a baby, European cultures are highly developed and entrenched over hundreds of years.

The shit will hit the fan. There will be no Islamic Europe.

This.

The "civil war" between Muslims and native Europeans has already begun. Take a look at the rise of Golden Dawn in Greece, an openly fascist goon squad that attacks and terrorizes immigrant communities. And they're the fifth largest party in the Greek parliament. If ten years ago, you said that an openly fascist party could win even one seat in a national legislature anywhere in Europe (or the West), you'd be laughed out of the room. But now it's a reality.

Put simply, when the economic shit hits the fan in Germany, the U.K., Norway and elsewhere, the Muslim immigrant communities will be given an ultimatum: conform to local culture or get the fuck out. If they refuse, they'll be thrown out, violently. This exact same scenario has played out everywhere else there has been ethnic/religious strife.

It's possible that the Muslims will beat the Europeans, but I wouldn't put my money on it. The reason why Brits, Swedes and the like seem so pussified is because lack of war and economic plenty has let them become pussified. Wealth and peace make men weak and soft. As Greece has showed us, once the good times end, the Europeans will rediscover their inner warrior. These are the children of the people who colonized, terrorized and brutalized most of the known world. I wouldn't write them off so quickly.

Post: #13

I'm not sure the Europeans will come out on top. Although Islam isn't much of a threat, Progressive Liberals are.

The fight will come down between Nationalist and Progressive Europeans killing each other for control. The Progressives will have a huge advantage in that they will have a large Islamic population willing to fight for them.

This is actually a very, very, serious problem threatening the fabric of Europe. You are watching the early pinnings of a third world war.

It's not like the Mulsims haven't conquered Christian nations before - pretty much the entire Middle East was at one point white Christian, but look at it today! Turkey used to be the Christian Byzantine Empire, and the Hagia Sophia a church (then it became a mosque).

I'm not placing any bets on the future of Europe. 50/50 either side could win. The conflict will, just like the last world wars, draw in many third parties who will each have a vested interest in the outcome.

Post: #14

(05-19-2013 10:30 PM)Samseau Wrote:  I'm not sure the Europeans will come out on top. Although Islam isn't much of a threat, Progressive Liberals are.

The fight will come down between Nationalist and Progressive Europeans killing each other for control. The Progressives will have a huge advantage in that they will have a large Islamic population willing to fight for them.

This is an alarming scenario, but isn't your argument a little internally inconsistent?

First you say "Islam isn't much of a threat" but then you say there'll be a "large Islamic population willing to fight".

A large population willing to fight seems indeed to be a threat, isn't it?

Also I disagree progressive liberals are a threat to Western Civilization/Democracy. Democracy came from liberal thinking, accepting others may think differently and people have natural rights they can exercise as long as they don't interfere with the rights of others. As a liberal, I strongly believe political violence like what happened is Boston is exactly the most poisonous type of violation of human rights. To me it's bizarre to think of condoning this as liberal-- what about the natural rights of the dead and wounded?

Thomas Jefferson and the doctrine of natural rights:
http://www.crf-usa.org/foundations-of-ou...ights.html

The reason I ask is that although I am unfamiliar with Muslim immigrants into Europe, I imagine they may not be as monolithic a block as you're seeing.

Wouldn't many/at least some of them be economic immigrants, modern thinkers that just aren't religious and want the better environment of Britain as opposed to, say, Paikstan? Don't some of them realize Isn't the most likely explanation for why Pakistan is a shithole is some type of negative behavior of the Pakistanis themselves?
And thus not want to support whatever dim-witted, chronically violent culture they came from? If Pakistan was so great, why do they go to England?

Also I disagree progressive liberals are a threat: I'm one -- pinko to the core-- and I'd side with an Ayn Rand redneck gun nut who'll leave me alone to worship Satan in a second over some 8th century thinker peabrain who believes infidels should be shot. The Ayn Rand Gun Nut only believes you should shoot if the person's attacking you.

The Peabrain Jihadi has Special Transcendental Knowledge from God/Allah/Flying Spaghetti Monster which has always made for great murder justification.

Post: #15

(05-19-2013 02:29 PM)Samseau Wrote:  And for the guys who think this won't affect them: Think again. Political changes will come within the next 30 years as Muslims become a major force in democratic elections.

Luckily this doesn't seem to apply to the USA as well? I just looked and saw under 2% Muslims in USA. Isn't this too small to cause much problem beyond getting themselves iced if they cause too much trouble. I also suspect self-identified Muslims are skewed towards being among the poorest and least influential Americans.

If they start sweating Europe badly, USA will probably figure out a way to let even fewer of them in.

I would not want to be trying to get into the USA from a Muslim country right now on a student visa like the dimwitted Chechen brothers did. Who do you think gets the tiny number of jobs at the State dept? WASPy preps i suspect.

Post: #16

The following videos are inspired by Russian Major General Konstantin Petrov's work, which is in the process of being banned in Russia. He and others in the FSB tried to offer Russia a different path after the collapse of the Soviet Union, a political movement he called Concept of Public Security. I will do a separate post on him later. Here is an excellent video to watch regarding the situation of Islam in Europe and the world:





And another by the same people:

Post: #17

(05-19-2013 09:54 AM)Hooligan Harry Wrote:  Nationalism is on the rise in Europe, and with that will come conflict and potentially civil war. The civil rights movement is a baby, European cultures are highly developed and entrenched over hundreds of years.

I've been here for the last 10 days and I can 100% attest to this. There have been nonstop protests in Barcelona and Paris since I've been in Europe, for a multitude of issues. People are fucking pissed off here, and it's not like some weak OWS bullshit with a bunch of Whole Foods hippies sitting on a lawn somewhere. You've got armies of kids in ski masks that actually fight back to riot police. It's all about secession, anti-austerity measures, and anti-same sex marriage. There's an EXTREMELY strong conservative base here, and the advantage they have is they don't go around beating everyone over the head with a Bible or proclaiming it's "God's way". That's the problem with American conservatives is they bring religion into it.

In France, you have everyday, normal, good people showing up and simply stating, "We want a future of children that grow up in a real family". There's an intense level of national pride, and now you've got a whole hell of a lot of people that are pissed off about what's going on around them, whether it's same sex marriage or immigration policy.

Post: #18

(05-19-2013 11:51 PM)iknowexactly Wrote:  

(05-19-2013 10:30 PM)Samseau Wrote:  I'm not sure the Europeans will come out on top. Although Islam isn't much of a threat, Progressive Liberals are.

The fight will come down between Nationalist and Progressive Europeans killing each other for control. The Progressives will have a huge advantage in that they will have a large Islamic population willing to fight for them.

This is an alarming scenario, but isn't your argument a little internally inconsistent?

First you say "Islam isn't much of a threat" but then you say there'll be a "large Islamic population willing to fight".

Correct. Islam by itself is nothing, but Islam combined with Progressives, who are already entrenched in Government power, will be extremely deadly.

Let's say in country like Norway, in 30 years from now, is 50% Islamic and 50% Norwegian.

Then, of the native Norwegians, you have 20% Progressive, 30% Nationalists, and 50% just followers. Of the Muslims, you have 30% who are violent and want to kill infidels, and then the other 70% who are just followers. Furthermore, the government will be run by Progressives since they are the ones who will buy the Islamic vote. You will also have Muslims in positions of power as well.

When shit starts to hit the fan, it will start because of the 30% Muslims who are violent, rape women, assault and rob men, etc. This group will spur Nationalists to not only lash out against Muslims, but also against Progressives who will have control of the government. The progressives will have most Muslims on their side, since those 70% followers, who aren't really violent by nature, will see that they are being threatened by Nationalists and then join the Progressive cause. They will most likely be armed with guns and sent to attack Nationalists.

Meanwhile, the Nationalists will mainly appeal to Muslims who become Atheists (small minority) and those 50% of Norwegians who are on the fence. If the Nationalists cannot convince this middle group, they will be exterminated by the Progressives and their superior numbers.

So while Muslims by themselves are no threat, Muslims + Progressives are a serious challenge and cannot be taken lightly. Part of me thinks they will win in the long run due to superior birthrates of Muslims.

Quote:Also I disagree progressive liberals are a threat to Western Civilization/Democracy. Democracy came from liberal thinking, accepting others may think differently and people have natural rights they can exercise as long as they don't interfere with the rights of others. As a liberal, I strongly believe political violence like what happened is Boston is exactly the most poisonous type of violation of human rights. To me it's bizarre to think of condoning this as liberal-- what about the natural rights of the dead and wounded?

Thomas Jefferson and the doctrine of natural rights:
http://www.crf-usa.org/foundations-of-ou...ights.html

Not true at all, Liberal thinking is pretty much the antithesis of a democratic state and really has nothing to do with a democratic state.

A state is not about letting in enemies of the state just so they can sell out their native population. Accepting that people are different does not mean they belong with you.

America and Modern Europe are the only examples of a democracy, in all of history, that have embraced such suicidal values. Ancient Athens had incredibly strict limits to citizenship as did Britian for most of its history.

The problem with modern Progressives is that they fail to understand the importance of a state being representative of it's culture. Progressives think the state is something that just materializes out of thin air, whereas Culturalists understand a country is a product of it's traditions and history.

There is more to a democracy than merely having a vote.

Quote:The reason I ask is that although I am unfamiliar with Muslim immigrants into Europe, I imagine they may not be as monolithic a block as you're seeing.

Wouldn't many/at least some of them be economic immigrants, modern thinkers that just aren't religious and want the better environment of Britain as opposed to, say, Paikstan? Don't some of them realize Isn't the most likely explanation for why Pakistan is a shithole is some type of negative behavior of the Pakistanis themselves?
And thus not want to support whatever dim-witted, chronically violent culture they came from? If Pakistan was so great, why do they go to England?

What you say is quite true, that not all Muslims are violent - in fact, only a minority of them are.

But then again, it was the same with the Nazis or Communists; just a small minority of them were truly violent but that's all it took to make things hell.

Islam is an ideology. While I have nothing against Pakistani's I believe Islam needs to be stamped out. It's not like other religions because Islam is explicitly political in nature (whereas Christianity and Judaism are not necessarily so).

Quote:Also I disagree progressive liberals are a threat: I'm one -- pinko to the core-- and I'd side with an Ayn Rand redneck gun nut who'll leave me alone to worship Satan in a second over some 8th century thinker peabrain who believes infidels should be shot. The Ayn Rand Gun Nut only believes you should shoot if the person's attacking you.

The Peabrain Jihadi has Special Transcendental Knowledge from God/Allah/Flying Spaghetti Monster which has always made for great murder justification.

Then you're more level-headed compared to most Progressives I know - they won't admit that Islam is a dangerous religion plus they fail to address any contingencies involving an Islamic threat.

My guess is that it is because you're American - hating on Islam is not considered a hate-crime here. 9/11 has created such a permanent anti-Islamic fervor in the USA that I doubt American progressives will ever truly support Islam like European progressives do. No one will get elected by supporting Islam when terrorism remains a high threat. The Boston Bombers have only exacerbated the issue.

Post: #19

(05-20-2013 02:15 AM)thedude3737 Wrote:  

(05-19-2013 09:54 AM)Hooligan Harry Wrote:  Nationalism is on the rise in Europe, and with that will come conflict and potentially civil war. The civil rights movement is a baby, European cultures are highly developed and entrenched over hundreds of years.

I've been here for the last 10 days and I can 100% attest to this. There have been nonstop protests in Barcelona and Paris since I've been in Europe, for a multitude of issues. People are fucking pissed off here, and it's not like some weak OWS bullshit with a bunch of Whole Foods hippies sitting on a lawn somewhere. You've got armies of kids in ski masks that actually fight back to riot police. It's all about secession, anti-austerity measures, and anti-same sex marriage. There's an EXTREMELY strong conservative base here, and the advantage they have is they don't go around beating everyone over the head with a Bible or proclaiming it's "God's way". That's the problem with American conservatives is they bring religion into it.

In France, you have everyday, normal, good people showing up and simply stating, "We want a future of children that grow up in a real family". There's an intense level of national pride, and now you've got a whole hell of a lot of people that are pissed off about what's going on around them, whether it's same sex marriage or immigration policy.

Now that same-sex marriage has been legalized, the French government intends to authorize foreign-born residents to vote at local council elections.

Expect even more political violence in the coming months.

Post: #20

I'm not a fan of Islam. Islamic societies and muslims in general are conservative as hell. Not good for a player.

I respect individual muslims, but I'm not a fan of the religion at all.

Then again I'm not a fan of Indian culture either even though I'm Indian. Hell, I'm not a fan of any religion.

Post: #21

Europe is the continent that was never conquered by outside forces, all of our major wars were with ourselves, nor conquered nor colonized, and it will not be because of Islam that we will fall.

Just wait and see.

Post: #22

(05-20-2013 02:17 AM)Samseau Wrote:  Let's say in country like Norway, in 30 years from now, is 50% Islamic and 50% Norwegian.

(05-20-2013 02:17 AM)Samseau Wrote:  What will they do when they can no longer feed 8 of their children?

That hypothetical is so far out of the bounds of reality. According to the every trusty Wikipedia, Norway is currently 2% Muslim, Britain is 2.8 %, France is 3%, Germany 4.6-5.2%. Meanwhile Muslim fertility rates are declining towards that of the native populations in Europe and many are becoming more secular and (especially the men) intermarrying. I do think that the religious shall inherit the Earth but if Islam ever becomes large enough in Western Europe to pose a threat to Western liberal democracy and values, it won't be till we're dead.

Radical Islam is a threat to our Western culture and values, but all that using ludicrous figures like Norway being half Muslim in 30 years or Muslims in Europe having 8 kids does is make you seem like some paranoid alarmist nut job and hurt the credibility of your argument.

Post: #23

I seem to recall that once upon a time in history Iberia, parts of southern France, Sicily and the Balkans were all under muslim control. I believe the Golden Horde, when it ruled Russia, was also nominally muslim.

Powers rise, powers fall, and history moves on.

Post: #24

Not all of Iberia though. The Asturian region was not under their control, the Reconquest then went on to form other kingdoms. Portugal was one of them, Castille, Leon, Aragon, etc.

(05-20-2013 06:45 AM)Thomas the Rhymer Wrote:  I seem to recall that once upon a time in history Iberia, parts of southern France, Sicily and the Balkans were all under muslim control. I believe the Golden Horde, when it ruled Russia, was also nominally muslim.

Powers rise, powers fall, and history moves on.

Post: #25

(05-20-2013 02:15 AM)thedude3737 Wrote:  

(05-19-2013 09:54 AM)Hooligan Harry Wrote:  Nationalism is on the rise in Europe, and with that will come conflict and potentially civil war. The civil rights movement is a baby, European cultures are highly developed and entrenched over hundreds of years.

I've been here for the last 10 days and I can 100% attest to this. There have been nonstop protests in Barcelona and Paris since I've been in Europe, for a multitude of issues. People are fucking pissed off here, and it's not like some weak OWS bullshit with a bunch of Whole Foods hippies sitting on a lawn somewhere. You've got armies of kids in ski masks that actually fight back to riot police. It's all about secession, anti-austerity measures, and anti-same sex marriage. There's an EXTREMELY strong conservative base here, and the advantage they have is they don't go around beating everyone over the head with a Bible or proclaiming it's "God's way". That's the problem with American conservatives is they bring religion into it.

In France, you have everyday, normal, good people showing up and simply stating, "We want a future of children that grow up in a real family". There's an intense level of national pride, and now you've got a whole hell of a lot of people that are pissed off about what's going on around them, whether it's same sex marriage or immigration policy.

They're probably protesting the fact that President Hollande is a sellout and a fraud.

http://rendezvous.blogs.nytimes.com/2013...wing-race/

Banning the word race? Talk about insanity.

Meanwhile, as Islam over takes Catholocisim in France here's what progressives are saying:

Quote:Speaking on behalf of French President François Hollande at the inauguration ceremony of the mosque in Cergy, French Interior Minister Manuel Valls articulated the Socialist government's policy vis-à-vis the construction of new mosques in France. He declared: "A mosque, when it is erected in the city, says a simple thing: Islam has its place in France."

http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/3426/i...ism-france

Do you guys see what I mean by Progressives allying with Muslims in order to kill Conservatives? It will happen.