Post: #426

Gun shop near me is selling raffle tickets for a SAW!!!!

FN M249S

Tickets are $20 apiece. They have limited it to 500 tickets and only one to a customer.

I'm really hoping Santa Claus comes through for me! lol

Post: #427

(12-17-2017 02:23 PM)Caractacus Potts Wrote:  Gun shop near me is selling raffle tickets for a SAW!!!!

FN M249S

Tickets are $20 apiece. They have limited it to 500 tickets and only one to a customer.

I'm really hoping Santa Claus comes through for me! lol

So... they're going to profit $1k on a gun they would normally retail for about $9k. That's probably the only way to sell it since nobody wants that conversation piece posing as a rifle.

Even the Marines have had enough and are in the process of getting rid of the M249, and the Army is right behind them. I can't even imagine how impractical and useless a single shot only version of the SAW is, but hey, it'll be badass over the mantle!

Post: #428

Hey,

What is the cheapest 9mm Luger and .45 ACP ammo you guys can buy in Europe (although, good quality and excluding steel case)?

Post: #429

(12-20-2017 01:15 PM)SlickyBoy Wrote:  

(12-17-2017 02:23 PM)Caractacus Potts Wrote:  Gun shop near me is selling raffle tickets for a SAW!!!!

FN M249S

Tickets are $20 apiece. They have limited it to 500 tickets and only one to a customer.

I'm really hoping Santa Claus comes through for me! lol

So... they're going to profit $1k on a gun they would normally retail for about $9k. That's probably the only way to sell it since nobody wants that conversation piece posing as a rifle.

Even the Marines have had enough and are in the process of getting rid of the M249, and the Army is right behind them. I can't even imagine how impractical and useless a single shot only version of the SAW is, but hey, it'll be badass over the mantle!

It's an interesting tradeoff. Apparently the idea is more accurate shot placement (at least, closer to the target) rather than spray and pray.

Is anyone following the potential adoption of an intermediate caliber between 5.56 and 7.62? Given the amount of stockpiled 5.56, it's not going away, but will be interesting to see what comes to replace it.

Post: #430

(12-21-2017 09:00 PM)polar Wrote:  

(12-20-2017 01:15 PM)SlickyBoy Wrote:  

(12-17-2017 02:23 PM)Caractacus Potts Wrote:  Gun shop near me is selling raffle tickets for a SAW!!!!

FN M249S

Tickets are $20 apiece. They have limited it to 500 tickets and only one to a customer.

I'm really hoping Santa Claus comes through for me! lol

So... they're going to profit $1k on a gun they would normally retail for about $9k. That's probably the only way to sell it since nobody wants that conversation piece posing as a rifle.

Even the Marines have had enough and are in the process of getting rid of the M249, and the Army is right behind them. I can't even imagine how impractical and useless a single shot only version of the SAW is, but hey, it'll be badass over the mantle!

It's an interesting tradeoff. Apparently the idea is more accurate shot placement (at least, closer to the target) rather than spray and pray.

Is anyone following the potential adoption of an intermediate caliber between 5.56 and 7.62? Given the amount of stockpiled 5.56, it's not going away, but will be interesting to see what comes to replace it.

I have not looked lately, but a few years back I was at the center of that debate during some previous work for the federal government. Short answer is no, the 5.56 is not going away. With the introduction of this new piston driven variant of the M16/M4 platform, I don't see that changing any time soon.

I'm actually surprised and impressed they went this far with the better version of the current rifle. Not so many years ago the Army at least was dead set against the idea even for special operations units even though they knew it was better. The big brass wanted a common Army weapons system for cost and logistical reasons. Two sets of parts for two different types of rifles was seen as too big of a headache.

While there are and will continue to be special purpose rifles in different calibers, the main battle rifle is still going to be the 5.56 for a host of reasons. More rounds in the mag, more rounds able to be carried, cheaper to produce, and with the exception of some terrains like the mountains of Afghanistan and shots well past 300 meters, most of the time it works just fine using the standard 62 grain green tip M855 ball ammo, anecdotes notwithstanding. Where there are shortcomings, that often has to do with the shorter barrel of the M4 over long ranges (less power than a full length barrel) or trying to use it like a SAW on full auto for several minutes and a dozen magazines - it ain't made for that!

I'm not so sure the Army will be willing to part with the M249 without finding a direct replacement as this would be a radical departure from their infantry squad doctrine. As good as it is, a piston driven M16/M4 platform rifle isn't going to cut it in terms of laying down suppressive fire. The Marines are going that way because their unit size, squad organization and doctrine are already a bit different. Time will tell if the Army changes things that much to abandon a SAW equivalent.

Post: #431

Army marksmanship unit is working on a .264 USA round. It would be in between the 7.62 and the 5.56 NATO rounds. Improved ballistics and power over existing rounds as well as lighter than 7.62.




And then there is the cased telescoped ammo, that's pretty far away though. http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2017/...02-follow/

Post: #432

From the article about those polymer rounds - LOL!

Quote:"Alex and Patrick of TFBTV recently related their story shooting composite cased PCP ammunition, and the resultant explosion that could have seriously injured one or both of them."

Neat concept though. Some more info here with some side by side comparisons. I remember experiments with so called "caseless" ammo that kinda went nowhere, but this looks a lot more promising.

I still think it would not be a total replacement plan for the current rifle and round:

Quote:"To sum up, then, the .264 USA represents a double-edged sword for the infantryman. Higher performance than either the 5.56mm or 7.62mm, it could potentially allow troops (especially those with support weapons like machine guns or marksman’s rifles) to reach out and eliminate the enemy at longer distances than is practical with the current squad-level small arms suite. However, its increased recoil, weight, and heat flux versus 5.56mm present a very serious question about what tradeoffs should be made in the next iteration of US and NATO standard small arms ammunition. Should these disadvantages – potentially reducing the rate of fire and accuracy of the infantry’s weapons – be accepted in trade for longer effective range and greater lethality? Or should another compromise be struck, instead?"

Translation: It's too much for the females to handle, so the entire Army definitely won't get this weapon. If we see it at all, it'll be in all male (for now) units like infantry, and even then probably in a designated marksman role, not a total replacement. But that's ok if it takes care of the current capability gap.

Post: #433

^Same way they turned the 10mm into the .40 "short-and-weak" because the women in the FBI weren't capable of using a full powered handgun.

Post: #434

(12-20-2017 01:15 PM)SlickyBoy Wrote:  

(12-17-2017 02:23 PM)Caractacus Potts Wrote:  Gun shop near me is selling raffle tickets for a SAW!!!!

FN M249S

Tickets are $20 apiece. They have limited it to 500 tickets and only one to a customer.

I'm really hoping Santa Claus comes through for me! lol

So... they're going to profit $1k on a gun they would normally retail for about $9k. That's probably the only way to sell it since nobody wants that conversation piece posing as a rifle.

Even the Marines have had enough and are in the process of getting rid of the M249, and the Army is right behind them. I can't even imagine how impractical and useless a single shot only version of the SAW is, but hey, it'll be badass over the mantle!

As Paulie Shore would say "bro, why you gotta weez my gig?"

#1 It's a 1 in 500 chance for $20. I can't think of too many other lotteries/raffles that supply such good odds.

#2 Having that bad-boy slung with a loop sling when the zombies or looters come would definitely make them think twice! lol

#3 I think you are right in that I will definitely get a piece if it's hung over the mantlepiece.

Post: #435

(12-22-2017 05:31 PM)SlickyBoy Wrote:  From the article about those polymer rounds - LOL!

...
That's why it's still in development and not released.

(12-22-2017 05:31 PM)SlickyBoy Wrote:  I still think it would not be a total replacement plan for the current rifle and round:

Absolutely. They're talking about an AR-12

(12-22-2017 05:31 PM)SlickyBoy Wrote:  Translation: It's too much for the females to handle, so the entire Army definitely won't get this weapon. If we see it at all, it'll be in all male (for now) units like infantry, and even then probably in a designated marksman role, not a total replacement. But that's ok if it takes care of the current capability gap.

I disagree. The recoil is larger than 5.56, which has none. I'm pretty sure even females can handle the recoil of a 6.5 Swedish Mauser equivalent. 264 USA is not a magnum round.

Nevertheless, there is a new kid on the block that is marketed towards long distance precision shooters: 224 Valkyrie. "Supersonic to 1300 yards!"
And, of course, there are the 15 billion flavors of 6mm cartridges.

Post: #436

The trouble with these debates on chamberings is that they only ever focus on the failings of the current standard and what would trump it on that basis rather than looking at the overall picture.

Who wants to kick in a door in Iraq with a 6.5 creedmoor on full auto?

Who wants to do it 300 times in a day?

Who wants to run out of suppressing fire waiting for air support because you can only carry 70 percent of the ammunition in plain make-the-gun-go-bang numbers?

"Military application" covers a lot more than sniping Afghans on mountain ranges.

All I know is that when I see pictures of special forces in the field, they're not carrying the latest whizz-bang chambering in a space-gun plastic bullpup configuration. They're routinely carrying the same shit the common plebs are using. Even the Australian SAS seem to use the 5.56 M4 platform when they get the opportunity to throw away their AUGs.

Post: #437

The recent fielding of M855A1 ammunition has given the 5.56 cartridge a bit more life.

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2015/...real-deal/

Post: #438

Leonard,
Even kicking doors in Iraq we didn't have full auto. It was always double tap, or what ever it is called now.
For the big army you can load the round down with the lighter bullet for reduced recoil and load it up for specialists. Looking at the rounds, the case capacity is a lot less than the creedmoor, so the recoil won't be much of a issue. It is a true intermediate round.
But with the development of this valkyrie round should give the army some food for thought.

Post: #439

(12-23-2017 07:54 AM)MOVSM Wrote:  Leonard,
For the big army you can load the round down with the lighter bullet for reduced recoil and load it up for specialists. Looking at the rounds, the case capacity is a lot less than the creedmoor, so the recoil won't be much of a issue. It is a true intermediate round.
But with the development of this valkyrie round should give the army some food for thought.

That isn't what they found during testing - recoil was significantly higher. Have a look at the charts in the article:

Quote:This shows that, in an apples-to-apples comparison, the .264 USA produces considerably greater recoil forces even than other powerful intermediate calibers like the 6.5 Grendel and 6.8 SPC.

Given that they already dismissed the idea of the 6.5 Grendel broadly replacing the 5.56 back in the mid 2000s, I'm not sure this will turn out any different on a broad scale replacement plan. But it looks like it'll find a home somewhere in the arsenal as a special purpose round/weapon.

The idea of two different versions of the same ammunition for rifles based on the same platform was already a headache during the changeover from the M16A1 to the M16A2. Different barrel twists meant two different kinds of rounds (a 55 grain M193 for the former; 62 grain M855 for the latter). Couple this with the brass making already loud complaints about logistics and maintenance concerns and the only likely way of doing it Army-wide would be all or nothing. I'd love to be wrong about this but I don't think I will be.

Post: #440

So what would an intermediate caliber solve that isn't largely addressed by designated marksman / gunner role with 7.62? A full rearmament to do more against enemies in body armor and at longer distance while largely maintaining ammo capacity and interoperability across a unit?

Post: #441

Advantage of an intermediate cartridge:

Quote:What was needed was a more compact, selective fire weapon firing a cartridge combining the power of a rifle and the controllability of pistol cartridges. The resulting cartridge would have the accuracy of the former for typical combat ranges, and the firepower of the latter at short ranges

Post: #442

(12-23-2017 09:36 AM)SlickyBoy Wrote:  That isn't what they found during testing - recoil was significantly higher. Have a look at the charts in the article:

Quote:This shows that, in an apples-to-apples comparison, the .264 USA produces considerably greater recoil forces even than other powerful intermediate calibers like the 6.5 Grendel and 6.8 SPC.

...which is still a lot less than recoil of 7.62NATO and 6.5 creedmoor.

(12-23-2017 09:36 AM)SlickyBoy Wrote:  Given that they already dismissed the idea of the 6.5 Grendel broadly replacing the 5.56 back in the mid 2000s, I'm not sure this will turn out any different on a broad scale replacement plan. But it looks like it'll find a home somewhere in the arsenal as a special purpose round/weapon.

The problem with the Grendel is that it needs 24" barrel to do its advertised magic. that wasn't going to work for the army. 264 USA works from 20" barrel and less.

(12-23-2017 09:36 AM)SlickyBoy Wrote:  The idea of two different versions of the same ammunition for rifles based on the same platform was already a headache during the changeover from the M16A1 to the M16A2. Different barrel twists meant two different kinds of rounds (a 55 grain M193 for the former; 62 grain M855 for the latter). Couple this with the brass making already loud complaints about logistics and maintenance concerns and the only likely way of doing it Army-wide would be all or nothing. I'd love to be wrong about this but I don't think I will be.

Can't argue with any of that. IF it ever happens, it will probably be with special forces first, they are the testers essentially of everything new and cool. I haven't heard anything--do you know how they like the 300 Norma mag?

Post: #443

I've got a couple of friends still in the community who have not yet had a chance to try it.

Post: #444

Ever see films where a suppressed firearm sounds like some sort of laser gun?

Well it seems that if you suppress a 50 cal air rifle then you actually get that sound.





Whodathunkit?

(jump straight to 3:00 for the actual shot)

Post: #445

Just thought I'd stick my head in here for a second in hopes that you were talking about firearms/ballistics and not about tactics.... Thoroughly disappointed. Tis why I intentionally avoided this thread and this will probably be my only post.

The firearms portion of this thread is what I was hoping for.
For ballistics, I would point in the direction of the .300 Blackout round and also recommend the 5.7x28mm. Both of those would satisfy combat rifle/pistol rounds. They kick and they're noisy. Call the "waaaaa"mbulance.

The far more likely direction US military firearms application are going will NEVER support a bullpup configuration and it's sad because it's an awesome piece of art. Puts the action behind the trigger group and uses wasted space in the stock to store ammo, allows for a longer barrel in a shorter rifle (which most of you prolly think affects your accuracy, but that's not necessarily true, it affects more the projectile's velocity).
The US military is dead set on the AR platform because it's simple to make and simple to use. To many veterans, it's the only weapon they've ever used, so a transition to anything else would be incredibly unpopular. This is why the SCAR has failed to replace the M-4 type platforms. It's also incredibly easy to upgrade...

That's why you see Special Operations forces still using the "M-4." In most tier 1 SPECOPS, it's not an M-4, it's an HK416, which looks identical, but is integrally very, very different (Delayed Roller Blowback = projectile has left the barrel before the recoil). On the smaller weapons, they've gone with the HK MP7, which is a 4.6x30mm round. Conventional wisdom has been that anti-terror forces will use the MP 5 (before the MP 7) but when the fight spilled out onto the streets, now you're fighting a rifle battle in the open with 9mm, which sucks ass. So, then we started using the M4 for anti-terror and just had to tighten up our marksmanship. It works great. No need for an MP5.

"Kicking in doors in Iraq" the regular army/marines will use automatic weapons... It's awful and dangerous, but they do it. I promise you. Can't tell you how many times I was working with a "regular" unit and I had to enter the room with a fat army chick carrying a SAW. Total chaos. Plus, their CQC sucks, but now I'm going down the very rabbit hole I wanted to avoid, so I'll stop.

I will leave you with one nugget of advice. I've killed people with almost every caliber of round in the US arsenal and people die the same from a 9mm as they die from a .300 WINMAG. Forget all this nonsense of trying to upgrade your weapons to fire larger rounds and use that money for TRAINING.

I could defend my home with a pellet gun because I can shoot accurately. When I go to the range, I laugh my ass off at all the "Range Ninjas" with their $4000 pistols who can't hit the 10 ring at 7 yds. The best thing you can spend your money on to make your weapon more deadly is TRAINING.

Post: #446

(12-29-2017 09:01 AM)Dulceácido Wrote:  The firearms portion of this thread is what I was hoping for.
For ballistics, I would point in the direction of the .300 Blackout round and also recommend the 5.7x28mm. Both of those would satisfy combat rifle/pistol rounds. They kick and they're noisy. Call the "waaaaa"mbulance.

Blackout suffers the same drawback as the 5.56--lack of range, which is a problem when when you're shot at from a mountain across the valley. This is why AMU is developing 264 USA. Range.
5.7x28 is wonderful against armor; not so much against flesh. The best way is to go the Russian route--hot-rodded 9mm armor piercing ammo.

(12-29-2017 09:01 AM)Dulceácido Wrote:  The far more likely direction US military firearms application are going will NEVER support a bullpup configuration and it's sad because it's an awesome piece of art. Puts the action behind the trigger group and uses wasted space in the stock to store ammo, allows for a longer barrel in a shorter rifle (which most of you prolly think affects your accuracy, but that's not necessarily true, it affects more the projectile's velocity).
The US military is dead set on the AR platform because it's simple to make and simple to use. To many veterans, it's the only weapon they've ever used, so a transition to anything else would be incredibly unpopular. This is why the SCAR has failed to replace the M-4 type platforms. It's also incredibly easy to upgrade...

Bulpup also takes your face off when things go kaboom. AR15 kaboom, on the other hand, gives you a bit of a scare.
SCAR simply didn't offer enough of an advantage over the AR. It also has plastic lower, with all the concerns for longevity.

(12-29-2017 09:01 AM)Dulceácido Wrote:  (Delayed Roller Blowback = projectile has left the barrel before the recoil).

Are you familiar at all with the laws of physics? That's not how it works. That's not how any of this works...

(12-29-2017 09:01 AM)Dulceácido Wrote:  "Kicking in doors in Iraq" the regular army/marines will use automatic weapons... It's awful and dangerous, but they do it. I promise you. Can't tell you how many times I was working with a "regular" unit and I had to enter the room with a fat army chick carrying a SAW. Total chaos. Plus, their CQC sucks, but now I'm going down the very rabbit hole I wanted to avoid, so I'll stop.

I'll give you 3 gold stars if you can prove this situation happened. Last I checked, women in combat arms have not made it to front lines and medics aren't issued SAWs.

(12-29-2017 09:01 AM)Dulceácido Wrote:  I will leave you with one nugget of advice. I've killed people with almost every caliber of round in the US arsenal and people die the same from a 9mm as they die from a .300 WINMAG.

What was your MOS and position?
Most idiotic thing I've read today. "Rifle kills the same as a pistol..." hoo boy... Also, chicken flies the same as a hawk, and you will sustain same injury from a shark as from a trout.

(12-29-2017 09:01 AM)Dulceácido Wrote:  I could defend my home with a pellet gun because I can shoot accurately. When I go to the range, I laugh my ass off at all the "Range Ninjas" with their $4000 pistols who can't hit the 10 ring at 7 yds. The best thing you can spend your money on to make your weapon more deadly is TRAINING.

How effectively can you train when an average army unit goes to the range twice a year?

Post: #447

Isn't the VSS Vintorez quietest rifle ever?

Post: #448

(12-29-2017 02:01 PM)MOVSM Wrote:  

(12-29-2017 09:01 AM)Dulceácido Wrote:  The firearms portion of this thread is what I was hoping for.
For ballistics, I would point in the direction of the .300 Blackout round and also recommend the 5.7x28mm. Both of those would satisfy combat rifle/pistol rounds. They kick and they're noisy. Call the "waaaaa"mbulance.

Blackout suffers the same drawback as the 5.56--lack of range, which is a problem when when you're shot at from a mountain across the valley. This is why AMU is developing 264 USA. Range.
5.7x28 is wonderful against armor; not so much against flesh. The best way is to go the Russian route--hot-rodded 9mm armor piercing ammo.

(12-29-2017 09:01 AM)Dulceácido Wrote:  The far more likely direction US military firearms application are going will NEVER support a bullpup configuration and it's sad because it's an awesome piece of art. Puts the action behind the trigger group and uses wasted space in the stock to store ammo, allows for a longer barrel in a shorter rifle (which most of you prolly think affects your accuracy, but that's not necessarily true, it affects more the projectile's velocity).
The US military is dead set on the AR platform because it's simple to make and simple to use. To many veterans, it's the only weapon they've ever used, so a transition to anything else would be incredibly unpopular. This is why the SCAR has failed to replace the M-4 type platforms. It's also incredibly easy to upgrade...

Bulpup also takes your face off when things go kaboom. AR15 kaboom, on the other hand, gives you a bit of a scare.
SCAR simply didn't offer enough of an advantage over the AR. It also has plastic lower, with all the concerns for longevity.

(12-29-2017 09:01 AM)Dulceácido Wrote:  (Delayed Roller Blowback = projectile has left the barrel before the recoil).

Are you familiar at all with the laws of physics? That's not how it works. That's not how any of this works...

(12-29-2017 09:01 AM)Dulceácido Wrote:  "Kicking in doors in Iraq" the regular army/marines will use automatic weapons... It's awful and dangerous, but they do it. I promise you. Can't tell you how many times I was working with a "regular" unit and I had to enter the room with a fat army chick carrying a SAW. Total chaos. Plus, their CQC sucks, but now I'm going down the very rabbit hole I wanted to avoid, so I'll stop.

I'll give you 3 gold stars if you can prove this situation happened. Last I checked, women in combat arms have not made it to front lines and medics aren't issued SAWs.

(12-29-2017 09:01 AM)Dulceácido Wrote:  I will leave you with one nugget of advice. I've killed people with almost every caliber of round in the US arsenal and people die the same from a 9mm as they die from a .300 WINMAG.

What was your MOS and position?
Most idiotic thing I've read today. "Rifle kills the same as a pistol..." hoo boy... Also, chicken flies the same as a hawk, and you will sustain same injury from a shark as from a trout.

(12-29-2017 09:01 AM)Dulceácido Wrote:  I could defend my home with a pellet gun because I can shoot accurately. When I go to the range, I laugh my ass off at all the "Range Ninjas" with their $4000 pistols who can't hit the 10 ring at 7 yds. The best thing you can spend your money on to make your weapon more deadly is TRAINING.

How effectively can you train when an average army unit goes to the range twice a year?

You've no idea what you're talking about. You can keyboard ninja me all day long with vague ideas and fuckery. I don't care. You've, likely, never been in combat. I'm not trying to pick a fight here. I've spent the most of my adult life in combat...

But yeah, you're right. I've only killed 56 people. What would I know?

Post: #449

(12-30-2017 11:58 AM)Dulceácido Wrote:  You've no idea what you're talking about. You can keyboard ninja me all day long with vague ideas and fuckery. I don't care. You've, likely, never been in combat. I'm not trying to pick a fight here. I've spent the most of my adult life in combat...

But yeah, you're right. I've only killed 56 people. What would I know?

lol

Post: #450

(12-30-2017 11:58 AM)Dulceácido Wrote:  You've no idea what you're talking about. You can keyboard ninja me all day long with vague ideas and fuckery. I don't care. You've, likely, never been in combat. I'm not trying to pick a fight here. I've spent the most of my adult life in combat...

But yeah, you're right. I've only killed 56 people. What would I know?

What the fuck did you just fucking say about me, you little bitch? I’ll have you know I graduated top of my class in the Navy Seals, and I’ve been involved in numerous secret raids on Al-Quaeda, and I have over 300 confirmed kills. I am trained in gorilla warfare and I’m the top sniper in the entire US armed forces. You are nothing to me but just another target. I will wipe you the fuck out with precision the likes of which has never been seen before on this Earth, mark my fucking words. You think you can get away with saying that shit to me over the Internet? Think again, fucker. As we speak I am contacting my secret network of spies across the USA and your IP is being traced right now so you better prepare for the storm, maggot. The storm that wipes out the pathetic little thing you call your life. You’re fucking dead, kid. I can be anywhere, anytime, and I can kill you in over seven hundred ways, and that’s just with my bare hands. Not only am I extensively trained in unarmed combat, but I have access to the entire arsenal of the United States Marine Corps and I will use it to its full extent to wipe your miserable ass off the face of the continent, you little shit. If only you could have known what unholy retribution your little “clever” comment was about to bring down upon you, maybe you would have held your fucking tongue. But you couldn’t, you didn’t, and now you’re paying the price, you goddamn idiot. I will shit fury all over you and you will drown in it. You’re fucking dead, kiddo.