Post: #3376

(06-07-2017 10:57 AM)floor7 Wrote:  

(06-04-2017 08:28 PM)Rocha Wrote:  

(06-04-2017 07:36 PM)Patricius Magnus Wrote:  

(06-03-2017 03:35 PM)lonewolf1992 Wrote:  What a Flop cuadrado is, I can't stand his game or attitude, crappy player. I feel bad for Juventus, they came out on the second half to see Fake Mandril play.

Not sure he's a "flop". Did you watch him in both legs against Barcelona? He dominated Mathieu and then Roberto. He's not great, but hardly a flop. And this wasn't his best game but it was against Real Madrid and he only came on as a sub and had to adjust to the speed of the game. Bad attitude is obvious though.

As for the UCL final, two unlucky deflections for the first two RM goals. Madrid were clearly better in the second half, but that kept Juve from building any momentum. All those kinds of bounces went their way earlier, which is why they were able to only give up 1 goal onwards from the group stage.

I don't see any deflection in Cristiano first goal. It is a perfectly placed shot.

Real Madrid has the most talented team and players, Zidane just has to not fuck things up. The best wingbacks in the world (Carbajal and Marcelo), the best striker in the world (Cristiano), the best transition miedfielders (Kroos, Modric, Isco), plus Ramos, Varane, Pepe, Benzema, Bale, Morata, Asensio, James Rodriguez, Vazquez, Kovacic...

Juventus has a great team and they are perfectly tactically, but they just lack the Real Madrid talent, they do not have one player that can be considered a superstar other than legendary Buffon, or future superstar Dybala. Certainly not overpriced Higuain.

It's more than that - you can clearly see the influence of Lippi, Del Bosque, and Ancelotti on Zidane. He's an excellent manager - the RM job has eaten up and spit out tons of 'top managers' even with prior loaded squads.

I am not saying he is not a good manager. Quite the opposite, not fucking things up is an ability that not every manager has. Putting the right player in the right position and finding a team well balanced is not for everyone. Most managers are too much creative or on the opposite very strict in their ideas of play not taking in consideration the characteristics of the players at his disposition. Now, whether Zidane is brilliant and groundbreaking like one day Mourinho, Guardiola, Lippi, Sacchi or Michels, then I think not.

Post: #3377

(06-07-2017 11:49 AM)Skank_Hunt Wrote:  

(06-07-2017 08:11 AM)Rocha Wrote:  Why are you trying to hamsterize Juventus defeat?
Real Madrid won better and fairly, and they have undoubtedly better players. Also I dont see a word from you regarding our boy Cristiano who is nowadays the undisputed best footballer in the world.

Also Dortmund 97 was not an ordinary team, I remember perfectly they had the core of the German team than won Euro 96 with legendary players like Sammer, Reuten, Moeller, Khoeler or Riedle, and also Paulo Sousa, Chapuisat, and on that specific game a monstruous Paul Lambert who totally dominated the miedfield.

And btw it is Juventus who is famous for buying referees and play against the rules, not the other way around, I dont see what is so much to love about that team.

I support FC Porto.

Juventus knocked Porto out quite easily. Now I see why you wouldn't mind Juventus losing, and why you might support Ronaldo. I personally think he is a good player, slightly overrated compared to other greats, but as a person a bit of dick. He cries when his team mates don't pass him the ball and is noticeably unhappy even if his team wins, when he doesn't play a starring role. As far as Porto goes, I think I've said this before but I would like Porto to go further in UCL, but it's not good when coaches like Mourinho and others are always circling around your best players. Players are forced to be sold because they demand it and the club doesn't have the finances to say no even to a 50m euro offer for some player. Something has to be done about that but I don't know what exactly.

There is nowhere I deny the obvious, that Juventus especially in the 2nd half choked. I give my analysis to anyone interested in soccer as I find it very interesting myself. If you don't like it don't read it, in particular if you think I'm making excuses for Juve's terrible display.

I'm also interested in how bizarre football can be sometimes, where excellent teams in 2 leg ties (Juventus) can be easily beaten in one match "big game" finals. Like I said above they need some top sports psychologists to at least try to stop this mental block. At the moment most of Europe is laughing at them and a lot of fans are starting to see that there is almost no point in reaching the finals if you lose every single time. This is especially interesting because physically and mentally I have not seen a more cohesive and hard to break down unit as this season's Juventus in a long, long time. The bookmakers had odds at 50-50, but a lot of pundits were saying quietly how they saw Juventus as favorites. RM are a very good side, but Juventus are equipped to deal with them.

There are so many tactical elements of what happened during the game that caused Juventus to lose aside from the obvious mental weakness/psychological breakdown in the big final, and one of these was the underestimation of your beloved Ronaldo. Juve had dealt very well with Messi/Neymar/Suarez against Barcelona, so Ronaldo/Benzema were not treated with the respect they deserved by the Juventus defence and midfield. In the game against Barca, you can bet when Messi was on the ball it would be any midfielder, wing back, or central defender on him in a flash to dispossess him. Ronaldo had far too much space and you know Ronaldo, he can do nothing all game but come up with a goal suddenly any time if you give him 2 seconds to work with. My point is that Juventus certainly has enough to deal with Ronaldo and Benzema, but that they did not deal with them on the day, due to a mixture of psychological issues as Juventus is plagued by on finals, and terrible individual performances. If semi-final, this Juventus team would beat the very same RM team, but in a final, it's completely different for Juventus. RM were beaten in 2015 by an inferior Juve side at the 1/4 final or semis (I forget). Juve is very good at 2 leg ties now, but in finals they can lose even against Porto. Honestly I think Porto has a good chance of beating Juventus in a UCL final.

There are for sure weaknesses in Juve's starting 11, but RM is not a perfect team either. My point is that there is far too much emphasis on RM's excellence when the reality is that Juventus by their own fault collapsed psychologically in the 2nd half and this was the primary cause of their defeat.

As for 97 Dortmund, yes, they had some good players, but 1995-1999 Juventus team contained absolute legends, better than today. Yet if a team of Zidane, Davids, Deschamps, Conte, Ferrara, Del Piero etc. cannot win the Champions' League as in 1998 against a good but inferior RM team, then you know there is something wrong with this club in UCL finals. In 1997 Dortmund had some good players, but Juve overwhelming favorites obviously, yet again this Juve team choked in the final. For people who became Juve fans after 1996 win v Ajax, that is 5 finals now lost in a row with not one single victory. It must weigh hard on the players.

I also read Allegri has a new contract for 7.5m euros. That's crazy, all he is doing is winning a weak league and he is now 3/3 in UCL Final defeats. The club president Agnelli also refused to comment specifically when asked about Juve's performance in the first 20 minutes of the 2nd half, which was like some shitty amateur team was playing. I think he should have criticized the players and the manager for throwing away the 2nd half for no reason at 1-1.

I've watched each team's journey through the UCL this year to the final, and one of the great strengths of Juventus is their organization, communication and success in the basic things such as passing, tackling, positioning, interceptions etc. In the 2nd half they couldn't even complete the most basic passes. I think one time one of their players messed up a throw-in or something, it was crazy to watch. These are basic aspects of football which are not the most entertaining but Juventus is not a side there to entertain, and it is very effective. Allegri had built upon the Conte era of strictness. If you have watched Juventus all season, you would know that the 2nd half collapse is completely out of character even against the best teams in UCL; it only tends to occur in UCL finals. This pattern has not been broken and until Juventus fixes their mentality they will just keep losing finals. It's good to get to many finals but past a certain point if you lose every one it does weigh heavy on the club. This is why the responses of the Juventus management and director are silly; there is a big problem at the club but they will not face it.

RM did well to exploit Juve's nerves and psychological weakness to turn it into a footballing collapse in the 2nd half, but RM are not the best team in Europe, I maintain that. This goes probably to Bayern. If Juventus could fix their mentality it would be between Juve and Bayern.

Now however the Juve team is getting old, the defenders need to be replaced soon, their weakness is also CM as I said; they need a DM like Vidal to make tackles and do the dirty work so that Pjanic can create more, and Higuain is just too fat and too shit, 90m for that? What a mistake. Can buy Morata and another good striker for that amount.

As for the match fixing scandal, I've heard you mention that multiple times. If it happened in the past, who knows. I have seen the charges that mention no specific proof of Juve having fixed any matches, but still they were punished by demotion to Serie B. Other teams had their sentences reduced to points deductions only. Either way, that was a long time ago now and Juve certainly has no need to fix matches anymore. All I said was, jokingly, it looked like Juventus came out in the 2nd half either on drugs or maybe the club was paid a huge amount of money to lose the final, because the difference between 1st half and 2nd half was like night and day.

You can talk all day about Juventus are an awful team and RM are awesome, and Ronaldo is awesome or whatever you want, but I only call it as I see it. Juventus had a brilliant UCL campaign followed by an embarrassing mental collapse against a good, but not brilliant, RM team. That is what happened.

Some part of you I believe wants Porto to be in these finals and they are not anywhere close. Yet if Porto developed a team as excellent and fascinating to watch as Juventus this year, and for example schooled Barcelona and gave the best of attacks defensive masterclasses at the highest level, I would be on this thread discussing how Porto did it and you would be very happy to talk about it. It's not my doing that Porto is an average European side at the moment. Hopefully they can improve and depose one of these big teams like RM, Bayern, Barca because it is getting boring to see one of these three teams win the UCL every year. That's why many neutrals have followed Juventus like many neutrals followed Leicester last season in EPL. Portugal has a relatively weak league like Serie A but you cannot even beat Benfica to the title. You should concentrate on being able to beat mediocre opposition from your own league first consistently, dominate your own league as Juventus has done, then step up gradually to the European stage. Juventus were absolutely shit in the final, conceding more goals in 1 game than in the whole competition, so it was an embarrassment for them in the end, but apart from performances in the final, your team Porto should take some lessons from Juventus, who recovered very well from being thrown into Serie B and most players leaving them. Obviously make your own strategies for the UCL final if you ever reach it, because Juventus have the worst record ever for finals, but 2 finals in 3 years after what Juve has been through, you would love Porto to do that, even if it ends in humiliation in the final.

I actually think the Juve manager should be sacked (he cannot win UCL), sports psychologists employed, and major punishments for players for their 2nd half performance, and a big overhaul of the squad which is getting too old and has maybe only one good season left in it. It's unfair on fans of Juve to bring them to so many finals with great confidence and great teams expected to win, then get totally destroyed.

Maybe you will like this picture:

I dont understand why you bring FC Porto to the table, and make that assumption that I am butthurt about the elimination against Juve. I gave the credit to Juventus here after that tie, and nowadays I dont really care if my team wins or not, in any way it affects my state of soul.

Now, what your detailed anylisis of the match fails to portray is that a team plays what the other team lets her play and vice versa. Juventus did not choked, Real Madrid came stronger, Zidane probably made the right adjustments at half time, and Real with their superior quality of players and speed in all sectors of the field (compared to Juventus slow and old defense, and slow Khedira, and now slowing Daniel Alves, and slow and fat Higuain, and combative but not fast Mandzukic, Pjanic not also known for his speed with the ball)...versus Ronaldo flying in the box, Carbajal and Marcelo on the wings, Kroos, Modric and Isco fast with and whithout ball, also Varane and Sergio Ramos faster than any Juve striker...
Juventus was condemned, only with a strike of luck they could have won that game. And Barcelona sucked this year all around, whithout Messi they would be 4th or 5th in the league, PSG should have played Juventus, Monaco is a talented but inexperienced side, and Porto this year also sucked, only showing throughout the season a solid defense. Not taking merit for reaching the final, but you are making Juventus much more of a team tham what they are.

Post: #3378

Rossi oh Rossi where art thou?

Post: #3379

(06-07-2017 12:48 PM)Rocha Wrote:  Now, what your detailed anylisis of the match fails to portray is that a team plays what the other team lets her play and vice versa. Juventus did not choked, Real Madrid came stronger, Zidane probably made the right adjustments at half time, and Real with their superior quality of players and speed in all sectors of the field (compared to Juventus slow and old defense, and slow Khedira, and now slowing Daniel Alves, and slow and fat Higuain, and combative but not fast Mandzukic, Pjanic not also known for his speed with the ball)...versus Ronaldo flying in the box, Carbajal and Marcelo on the wings, Kroos, Modric and Isco fast with and whithout ball, also Varane and Sergio Ramos faster than any Juve striker...
Juventus was condemned, only with a strike of luck they could have won that game. And Barcelona sucked this year all around, whithout Messi they would be 4th or 5th in the league, PSG should have played Juventus, Monaco is a talented but inexperienced side, and Porto this year also sucked, only showing throughout the season a solid defense. Not taking merit for reaching the final, but you are making Juventus much more of a team tham what they are.

I think we have to agree to disagree about why Juventus lost. I believe Juventus are a much stronger team than they were in the 2nd half of the final (this is obvious to many people), and you believe RM are a class above Juventus or any other world team. The reality is, no team is perfect. Juve definitely has its weaknesses in Higuain (how many times I mentioned 90m for that fat guy was so stupid in this thread I forgot) and Khedira (need a more combative midfielder like Vidal). But despite these weaknesses, Juve just collapsed in the 2nd half, they didn't even try, they looked beaten even before the 2nd goal went in, it was pure psychological collapse. They should be strong enough psychologically by now, but they were not. Like I said most of this RM team was beaten in UCL by 2015 Juve, a much inferior side. Juventus is not a team purely of individuals, while RM relies more on individual brilliance. Juve at its best as a collective all working in sync together, especially defensively with B-BBC and Alves/Sandro at the back with midfielders helping out where necessary as well, they are immensely difficult to break down. You think RM just got in there so easy because they are a far superior team and just faster than Juve? Juve (except in finals) doesn't give a fuck and is happy to defend. In a normal 2 leg tie they would punish RM or any other team in a similar way they did against Barca which had superior individuals.

Champions League Finals are a completely different story where Juventus become so nervous they don't play their own game which got them to the final in the first place. It's a pity because it's nice to see teams win tactically versus individual brilliance sometimes. But I guess you will never see what I mean.

As far as Porto, I think they would have got a better result v RM in the final than Juve did just because of psychological superiority in UCL finals. They're not so bad, Juve typically beat them but it was such a boring tie lol, Juve score one or two goals then just go back to defending. Bayern/Barca always try to hit as many goals as possible, Juve don't give a fuck. Only reason they scored 3 vs Barca and came out so offensive at the start was because they thought they needed to win at home to take to the Nou Camp which is one of the most difficult places to play.

Post: #3380

(06-03-2017 03:36 PM)Rocha Wrote:  Hey Rossi, not all is bad, finally Juventus distances themselves from Benfica for the most losses in European competition finals, 10 for Juventus vs. 8 of the latter. That's quite a respectable record.

Look, who's talking? Porto fan

You couldn't score against us 1 goal in 180 minutes, man and conceded 3. How dare you talk?

Porto 0-2 Juventus

Shots: 3-19
Possession: %23 - %76
Corners: 1-8

Let the big boys, talk. Let me find a Real Madrid fan to talk about the game, while you chat with Maritimo fans.

Next year, we'll try to knock you out 3-0 and 0-3 since 0-2 1-0 agg wasn't enough for you

We should beat you like how Bayern knocked Arsenal out, 10-2. Maybe that would make you stay quiet.

Post: #3381

(06-09-2017 11:37 PM)Rossi Wrote:  

(06-03-2017 03:36 PM)Rocha Wrote:  Hey Rossi, not all is bad, finally Juventus distances themselves from Benfica for the most losses in European competition finals, 10 for Juventus vs. 8 of the latter. That's quite a respectable record.

Look, who's talking? Porto fan

You couldn't score against us 1 goal in 180 minutes, man and conceded 3. How dare you talk?

Porto 0-2 Juventus

Shots: 3-19
Possession: %23 - %76
Corners: 1-8

Let the big boys, talk. Let me find a Real Madrid fan to talk about the game, while you chat with Maritimo fans.

Next year, we'll try to knock you out 3-0 and 0-3 since 0-2 1-0 agg wasn't enough for you

We should beat you like how Bayern knocked Arsenal out, 10-2. Maybe that would make you stay quiet.

We can talk again when Juventus wins a Uefa Champions League in the XXI century

Post: #3382

(06-09-2017 11:47 PM)Rocha Wrote:  We can talk again when Juventus wins a Uefa Champions League in the XXI century

I would love talk football with you if you were German or Spanish but you are Porto fan, man.

It's like Golden State Warrior fan talking basketball with Maccabi Tel Aviv fan. Not same level.

You played with us. We beat you in 2 games. 0-3 in agg. We went to final.

We went to final again 2 years ago. While, you were losing to Bayern 6-1. I think half time was 5-0 already

As you can see, this is not the level where we can talk football with you. Your level is Europa League. I'm sorry but keep working, you can always improve. Because Benfica played against same Bayern next year, they didn't get destroyed like Porto. I think they lost 1-0. Not 5-0 by halftime like Porto. That's why, they are keep winning in Portugal and you're just watching.

Tell Alex Telles, Hi from me. Very smart player

Post: #3383

This wont end well.

Post: #3384

Rossi, you don't need to debate whether Juventus is better than Porto.

As a Juventus fan, aren't you concerned that your team is like a brilliant defensive war machine in the group stages and knockout rounds, then when THE FINAL comes, Juventus is so nervous they turn into a team that is not recognizable, like Juventus Women's team or something? It is a shame because this year tactics and teamwork of Juventus beat out the best in the competition, and it would have been nice to see Juventus play like Juventus truly can play as we have seen them all season. How can you justify conceding 4 goals in 1 game, more than the whole competition before?

This Juventus defence can and could handle Ronaldo easily, but they did not play like the Juventus team we know. They play like they did in 97, 98, 2003, where they are weak minded in the final so they collapse under the mental pressure. In the 1st half I even noticed how much space Juventus was allowing and I knew even at 1-1 that they never ever give so much space as their basic tactics. This was not rocket science, but they allowed Ronaldo (not as good as Messi, especially with Neymar and Suarez next to him) far too much space. In any 2 leg QF or SF in each game Juve would have a plan for denying Ronaldo space and they would have executed it very well. In the final, all bets are off and Juventus becomes "Maritimo" that you talk about.

Juventus level in all games before final = CL Winners
Juventus level in actual UEFA Champions League Final = Crotone, Sunderland, Dundee Utd, [insert MLS/CSL team here] etc.

I have spoken to some Juventus ultras and they are concerned about this "curse". They are not fucking happy. They are almost saying "fuck making a final if every time you lose it". They are also worried about the aging Juventus squad which is very true. They are pissed off because if any time to win it, it was this year. Their squad individually was not perfect but as a unit was formidable. They made a good RM team look brilliant and praised by the media. They made a good Ronaldo look brilliant. They made average manager Zidane look like some sort of tactical genius when he just did "not fuck up" game. The blame for the 4-1 lies with the mental collapse of Juventus in European finals always, not with Real Madrid for being anything better than a "good" European side. With correct refereeing Bayern would have been in the final. Juve in 2015 beat pretty much the same team 2 years ago, it's a good but not fantastic team. Juventus should have handled it but they had probably lost the game before they even stepped on the pitch.

Post: #3385

Juventus for all of their glory and size have never had a single season side as successful 2004 Porto. It must hurt Juventini to see Inter have a treble and a double.

Furthermore this juventus side's window of opportunity to win in europe has closed. It was the oldest side to start in a cl final since milan's 2007 side. And we saw what happened to Milan afterwards.

Post: #3386

Post: #3387

(06-10-2017 07:18 PM)floor7 Wrote:  Juventus for all of their glory and size have never had a single season side as successful 2004 Porto. It must hurt Juventini to see Inter have a treble and a double.

Furthermore this juventus side's window of opportunity to win in europe has closed. It was the oldest side to start in a cl final since milan's 2007 side. And we saw what happened to Milan afterwards.

Definitely. By now the fans, especially the ultras, are looking around and seeing teams like Porto and Inter who have trebles or double containing UCL and league and looking at the average strength of their team over the games of the last few years and getting angry at the management of the club, and the players who are paid so much but fail on the one biggest match that counts the most. I don't know if next year the ultras are going to protest (there was already some protest this year but on a different issue). I personally think it's pointless for the Juve fans to pay to fill the Juventus stadium every week to watch them beat Pescara or Atalanta or even Roma or Lazio or Napoli, it's just comfort zone matchups and boring as hell. Higuain will score great goals and everyone will think he is worth the 90m. No, put that fat guy - and the rest of the Juve team - in a European Cup final and they choke. Doesn't matter what team you had. The team they had in 97, 98 was fucking amazing, legends all through the squad. Easily the strongest team in Europe at that time. They still could never win the finals.

As for age, I also agree. We can talk about how Juventus choked, but for this team of players, that is over now. They are too old. The period of transition will be difficult because it is epic difficulty level to replace Buffon, Barzagli, Chiellini, Bonnucci, and Alves. Higuain also is not good enough, he should be either sold or kept for the league and another player bought for big UCL games. Khedira is not good enough and getting old too. Marchisio is a good league player and decent in UCL but UCL winner standard? No. All I've got left in the starting lineup is Sandro, Pjanic, Dybala. They also have to strengthen their bench. And with the prices of players being so high, Juventus cannot compete in the transfer market to complete their squad even with the huge CL money they received. They may have lost the final but they made over 100m from this season as they did in 2015. I maintain they were just stupid to buy Higuain, it was a shitty move designed to weaken Napoli. I don't think Juve thought Higuain was actually worth 90m. But these are the crazy prices of players: 1 player Higuain can cost almost the same as entire UCL winnings for getting to the final. I think the next few years are not going to be so good unless they get some great luck of some sort, because they have to slowly phase out players, build up some good cash by going far in UCL (semi-finals at least) but of course they will never win it, and continue to take in match day revenues, merchandise revenues, membership revenues, tourism revenues, all that commercial stuff they need in addition to TV money. They also need to look for some good deals on the transfer market, as always, not be cheap but maybe look where there isn't such huge competition for big hype players. Let Man Utd chase the Pogba type price players. Look in other leagues, not just players who have lit up the UCL which inflates their price massively. They can't spend 90m on one player.

Post: #3388

England win the (U20) World Cup!

Post: #3389

(06-09-2017 11:53 PM)Rossi Wrote:  

(06-09-2017 11:47 PM)Rocha Wrote:  We can talk again when Juventus wins a Uefa Champions League in the XXI century

I would love talk football with you if you were German or Spanish but you are Porto fan, man.

It's like Golden State Warrior fan talking basketball with Maccabi Tel Aviv fan. Not same level.

You played with us. We beat you in 2 games. 0-3 in agg. We went to final.

We went to final again 2 years ago. While, you were losing to Bayern 6-1. I think half time was 5-0 already

As you can see, this is not the level where we can talk football with you. Your level is Europa League. I'm sorry but keep working, you can always improve. Because Benfica played against same Bayern next year, they didn't get destroyed like Porto. I think they lost 1-0. Not 5-0 by halftime like Porto. That's why, they are keep winning in Portugal and you're just watching.

Tell Alex Telles, Hi from me. Very smart player

@Rossi, I don't agree with you: Porto is CL Material since ever.. I am a Benfica fan by the way. I remember 3 or 4 years ago, when Pirlo and all his mates laughed at the EL Semi-final draw. Guess who laughed after.. (actually it was Sevilla )
This Italian/French/German and English posture towars Portuguese Football should stop. We won the Euro, we have a 4 times Ballon d'or, Benfica and Porto are constantly producing the best European Players.. and so on. I don't remember any Italian Team selling as Benfica and Porto.