Post: #3351

(06-03-2017 04:06 PM)AManLikePutin Wrote:  Was it Juventus in the second half or Newcastle ??

Up there with Milan in 2005, and Liverpool in 2016 (EL final) with the most absurd second half performances in history. Absolutely unrecognizable. It's as the entire side had a collective wank at half time and lost all their energy and aggression.

Post: #3352

Is it just me or is the Spanish league boring as hell? It's just two dominant teams. The rest of the teams suck. No competition and no excitement.

Post: #3353

Not sure what happened in the second half. Juve were the better side in the first; more shots on and off target and maybe more possession too. Their passing was tight. Obviously we didn't see any of that in the second.

In other news, despite being a superb player Ramos continues to be an idiot.

Post: #3354

Juventus played well overall but once Madrid made the tactical adjustments and the older juventus players started to tire out... the game was done.

Post: #3355

(06-03-2017 04:15 PM)Chavo Wrote:  Is it just me or is the Spanish league boring as hell? It's just two dominant teams. The rest of the teams suck. No competition and no excitement.

There is a difference between competition, excitement, and if 'teams suck'.

Is La Liga as exciting as perhaps the premier league? No.

Is La Liga as a league technically and tactically more proficient than the premier league up and down the table - yes.

Post: #3356

How about that dive from Ramos...

Post: #3357

^^Yeah lack of class from Ramos, playing it up and manipulating the ref. The incident will sink into the memory hole, as the match was already won.

Great match. Lived up to expectations and beyond. Some of the skill execution was world class. The Juve goal was PlayStation stuff. Sublime, free spirited moments from Modric, Isco, Marcelo and Dybala. How these guys turned, dropped shoulders, feigned, and just seemed to be immune to the occasion, was memorable.

Finally a mention of two legends - Buffon and Ronaldo. Sad to see one of the greatest keepers ever get 4 past him. Ronaldo showed that the greatest only need a few touches in 90 minutes to make all the difference.

Post: #3358

Juventus. Perennial losers in big games. They even lost to Fulham.

Disgraceful from Ramos though. It is well known that referees always favour Spanish teams.

Post: #3359

Rossi crying in his lasagna.

Well truth be told, I was hoping the old lady would win.

Post: #3360

(06-03-2017 09:01 PM)samifon Wrote:  How about that dive from Ramos...

Embarrassing dive but it seems about half the world didn't see that Cuadrado intentionally stepped on Sergio's foot. Deserving of a second yellow card.

Post: #3361

(06-04-2017 11:19 AM)rudebwoy Wrote:  Rossi crying in his lasagna.

Well truth be told, I was hoping the old lady would win.

I guess Macron must have been rooting for Juve

Gigi has lost a step, he should have stopped goals #2 and 3. He's nowhere near the top right now. He should retire, I think he will stay on till the next world cup. He must be sick of getting crushed by Spanish teams by now...

I was a big fan of Zidane but his coming out against le Pen put a bit of a damper on this. Nevertheless, you have to give him credit for his coaching job, impressive results with the merengues looking at least as good as the sum of their parts.

Post: #3362

Buffon yesterday:

Post: #3363

(06-03-2017 03:35 PM)lonewolf1992 Wrote:  What a Flop cuadrado is, I can't stand his game or attitude, crappy player. I feel bad for Juventus, they came out on the second half to see Fake Mandril play.

Not sure he's a "flop". Did you watch him in both legs against Barcelona? He dominated Mathieu and then Roberto. He's not great, but hardly a flop. And this wasn't his best game but it was against Real Madrid and he only came on as a sub and had to adjust to the speed of the game. Bad attitude is obvious though.

As for the UCL final, two unlucky deflections for the first two RM goals. Madrid were clearly better in the second half, but that kept Juve from building any momentum. All those kinds of bounces went their way earlier, which is why they were able to only give up 1 goal onwards from the group stage.

Post: #3364

(06-04-2017 07:36 PM)Patricius Magnus Wrote:  

(06-03-2017 03:35 PM)lonewolf1992 Wrote:  What a Flop cuadrado is, I can't stand his game or attitude, crappy player. I feel bad for Juventus, they came out on the second half to see Fake Mandril play.

Not sure he's a "flop". Did you watch him in both legs against Barcelona? He dominated Mathieu and then Roberto. He's not great, but hardly a flop. And this wasn't his best game but it was against Real Madrid and he only came on as a sub and had to adjust to the speed of the game. Bad attitude is obvious though.

As for the UCL final, two unlucky deflections for the first two RM goals. Madrid were clearly better in the second half, but that kept Juve from building any momentum. All those kinds of bounces went their way earlier, which is why they were able to only give up 1 goal onwards from the group stage.

I don't see any deflection in Cristiano first goal. It is a perfectly placed shot.

Real Madrid has the most talented team and players, Zidane just has to not fuck things up. The best wingbacks in the world (Carbajal and Marcelo), the best striker in the world (Cristiano), the best transition miedfielders (Kroos, Modric, Isco), plus Ramos, Varane, Pepe, Benzema, Bale, Morata, Asensio, James Rodriguez, Vazquez, Kovacic...

Juventus has a great team and they are perfectly tactically, but they just lack the Real Madrid talent, they do not have one player that can be considered a superstar other than legendary Buffon, or future superstar Dybala. Certainly not overpriced Higuain.

Post: #3365

(06-03-2017 08:22 PM)floor7 Wrote:  

(06-03-2017 04:15 PM)Chavo Wrote:  Is it just me or is the Spanish league boring as hell? It's just two dominant teams. The rest of the teams suck. No competition and no excitement.

There is a difference between competition, excitement, and if 'teams suck'.

Is La Liga as exciting as perhaps the premier league? No.

Is La Liga as a league technically and tactically more proficient than the premier league up and down the table - yes.

You think so? I don't really think so. I feel that if you stack up the teams in the Premier League vs the teams La Liga the Premier teams destroy La Liga. Putting aside RM and Barcelona of course.

We all know who is going to win every year. Barcelona and Real Madrid and that's it. Occasionally you'll have a team here and there that gives these two a fight, but at the end of the day it's these two that prevail. There's just no excitement for me.

Another thing I don't like, and this goes to Europe overall as well is their winning system. There's a whole season where the number one team wins. No playoffs, no final, nothing. Just whoever is first place throughout the season is champion. I find it boring.

Why not have a playoff bracket like they do in Latin America? Did any of you see the Mexican league or the MLS recently? Now that's what I call excitement. Playoffs, semis, then finals. It will make it more balanced and more exciting.

Post: #3366

(06-04-2017 08:58 PM)Chavo Wrote:  

(06-03-2017 08:22 PM)floor7 Wrote:  

(06-03-2017 04:15 PM)Chavo Wrote:  Is it just me or is the Spanish league boring as hell? It's just two dominant teams. The rest of the teams suck. No competition and no excitement.

There is a difference between competition, excitement, and if 'teams suck'.

Is La Liga as exciting as perhaps the premier league? No.

Is La Liga as a league technically and tactically more proficient than the premier league up and down the table - yes.

You think so? I don't really think so. I feel that if you stack up the teams in the Premier League vs the teams La Liga the Premier teams destroy La Liga. Putting aside RM and Barcelona of course.

We all know who is going to win every year. Barcelona and Real Madrid and that's it. Occasionally you'll have a team here and there that gives these two a fight, but at the end of the day it's these two that prevail. There's just no excitement for me.

Another thing I don't like, and this goes to Europe overall as well is their winning system. There's a whole season where the number one team wins. No playoffs, no final, nothing. Just whoever is first place throughout the season is champion. I find it boring.

Why not have a playoff bracket like they do in Latin America? Did any of you see the Mexican league or the MLS recently? Now that's what I call excitement. Playoffs, semis, then finals. It will make it more balanced and more exciting.

More exciting...In Europe we have the national and league cups for playoffs, brackets and elimination games, and all are invited, from the lower leagues to the first leagues.

The point of a league is that the best team wins, the one who wins more matches and looses less. It is a sporting event of regularity and not designed so that it's fate is decided by a single game. So if you want excitement and fun, maybe NFL or MBL can provide you that.

And no way Premier league teams destroy La Liga ones, there is simply no tactical and technical ability for that. Also the argument that only Real Madrid and Barcelona win the league opposite to the Premier League is a fallacy. Since 1992 when the premier League was established, it was won by 5 clubs, ManU, Chelsea, Blackburn, Arsenal and Man. City, in the same time frame La Liga was won also by 5 different teams, Barcelona, Real, Deportivo, Atletico and Valencia.

Post: #3367

^You forgot Leicester City.

Post: #3368

As I wrote in DN's thread:

Quote:BTW I think it was less that Real Madrid kicked ass than Juventus were absolutely shit. They are more than just "some ass", playing normally they are the meanest defence in the world bar none. I still think they are the better team... I know... even after 4-1... except in UCL finals! They just choke every time in the final, 5 times now they have lost in a row. Psychological factor of the final curse was pivotal here, turned the whole team into a bunch of pussies, incredible. The game was lost even from the 1st half IMO, I saw Juventus look nervous and their defence disorganized and knew it was done. When you concede more goals than you have conceded in the entire competition previously including against Barcelona, you know something is not quite normal. MSM is quite heavy on the RM brilliance angle but I think it's more Juventus extremely shit on the day, which is usual for them in UCL finals. Bayern are a better team tbh. Bayern > Juve > RM... UCL finals not included because Juve < Sunderland in that case. Sad for italian fans and also for the injured in the Turin stampede.

It was a tale of two halves indeed. Juve in 1st half... meh... Juve in 2nd half, absolutely shit. The English would say they turned into Sunderland, Scottish maybe Partick Thistle, Spanish maybe Granada but even they managed a better 2nd half against Real. Juventus just suck at finals. They are constant losers in UCL finals it's definitely a mix of a curse and self-fulfilling prophecy.

I will add that being interested in tactics of football and nuances I found that Juve was actually probably going to lose even in the 1st half, even after Mandzukic's brilliant effort. Explanation: general nervousness, defensive shape and other tactics.

Juve beat a better Barca attack and a strong Monaco attack with first of all steely italian reserve. This season they did not falter in the quarters or the semis, because they often fail in those big games before the final too, despite being better on paper. Some people (me included) thought they would carry this on to the final against Real, especially because Real is not the best team in the competition. Barca - best attack. Juve - best defence. Bayern - best overall probably. Real - mid 2nd with Juve, Bayern 1st IMO. However I saw a few jittery movements, atypical runs/general behavior, and some good passing combinations but which seemed a bit too... fast for Juve. Almost like they were trying to "prove" they could be attacking and relaxed when really they were still shitting themselves from the curse of the European final. Juve does adapt to other teams somewhat but they always have the same general tactics. First of all is just be solid, like steel. 1st half when the goal of Ronaldo went in so quickly, I could not believe it, conceded after 20 mins? No last gasp clearance or Buffon save? Chinks in the steel armor shown.

Then, there was the defensive shape and positioning. They pressed too high. They tried to be too confident again to maybe prove they weren't nervous but got caught out on the first attack against them. Again they are not used to playing like this, so why change? Yes they had more attacks in the 1st half and pundits called Juve "better" but I saw weakness and thought Real could possibly exploit the weaknesses if Juve did not change. However I thought Allegri would have seen this as obvious and informed the players to change, but, er, he obviously didn't...more about that in a second.

The point of having the Juve Buffon and BBC is to keep them back and solid, not pushing up always. Yes they can do that with Bonucci running forward in Serie A against fucking Pescara but not against Real or Barca or Monaco. Real are not special in this regard, their attack is of similar standard to Barca/Monaco. Juve beat Barca but only by respecting the strong Barca attack. I did not see enough respect shown for Benzema/Ronaldo/Isco or any of the other Real players when attacking. Juve trying to be positive when they are not by nature a "positive" team. Yes they attack more this season but you cannot depend on Higuain in big cup finals, we know that, and Dybala is good but on his own against a decent Real defence. Mandzukic was the best attacker of Juve (mainly with his goal) but he should usually run back and help out in defence, yes, it's equivalent to asking Benzema or Ronaldo to go help out Ramos in defence, yeah right... But that's what Juve does. They have B-BBC solid at the back, then HUGE task of Dani Alves and Alex Sandro to cover the entire length of the pitch, to attack and defend, which they did well against all teams so far in this competition. There is no argument that Alves and Sandro are not good enough to complete the task they were set, they just seemed to fall under the Juve curse and did not do what they were supposed to do. In the 2nd half, much worse, but that's for later (again...) So Juve usually has 5 excellent defenders when they want and 1 top goalkeeper, very hard to score against. But Real's first goal, WAY too much space as a result of Juve trying to push forward, and two wide fullbacks not getting back, and Mandzukic even plus midfielders Pjanic and Khedira not helping out in defence either. Usually the two at centre have to track back as well, that's why I think Marchisio would have been better than Khedira, and even replace Pjanic with Rincon to match defensively with Modric and Kroos in the centre. Very defensive I know, but Juve either have to get the players to do both jobs, or get players to do the more important job. Khedira was nowhere, Pjanic nowhere, not in attack or defence. So Juve have spread out BBC only to defend rather than Sandro-BBC-Alves + Pjanic&Marchisio + Mandzukic all in front of Buffon. That working hard = 3 goals conceded in whole tournament. Tested against the best attack in Barcelona. Also against excellent attack in Monaco. Only 1 goal was from open play I think, amazing record. Then bam, 1 goal. I am so used to Juve letting in 0 goals I couldn't believe it, but less I could believe so much space given to Real. Real are not better than Bayern but they are about even with Juve in quality, Juve did not respect them enough as they respected Barca's MSN. Media talking waaay too much about Real's quality but they always do that. Odds were even at the start, even at end of 1st, Juve just choked.

Other tactics, just randomly: Allegri trying to be too positive by calmly playing out the back, two midfielders in the centre concentrating more on attack than defence. Higuain too far separated from midfield. Dybala anonymous. Solution: be Juventus, as in game, play to your strengths: sit back as always and break quickly and effectively. Maybe Allegri thought it was going well after the 1st half. Some commentators were even saying Juventus had the better of it. I was confused by the way they were playing and thought it unsustainable. If they carried on like this they were either going to get beaten well, or because Real aren't as good as, say, Barca in attack Juve might get away with it and win on penalties as their best hope. Either way, their attack was isolated from defence, but still defence pushed up too high. Not fitting with general Juventus style and strengths. Still talking about 1st half.

2nd half. Yes, Real got a lucky goal with a deflection while Juve's deflected shot was deflected favorably for Real. But the 15 mins before that? Juventus, yes Juventus, lost all defensive shape, their BBC, their wingbacks, world class all year, just stopped running and disappeared in the last 45 minutes of the entire season. The last 45! What a time to disappear eh? Yes they had a lot of work to do but they did it against many other top teams without problems. Alves and Sandro still very much fit. On top of this I noticed all players individually getting scared. Juventus defenders started losing more 1 v 1 battles than I have ever seen in all the competition, within 15 minutes. The goal was deflected but Juventus deserved to be losing at that point. Looks like the old ghosts of being favorites, 97, 98, 2003... the curse coming back. Even Buffon, who usually makes some excellent saves every game, was letting them all past him. Bonucci, Barzagli, Chiellini getting beaten time and time again when they had previously kept Messi/Neymar/Suarez out in 1 v 1 for 180 minutes and 0 goals. Doesn't make sense. Khedira and Pjanic may as well have not been playing. Juve don't even have a replacement for Higuain but damn they needed one. Morata would have been great to have, heck to start, in a fnal as he did in 2015 for Juve. Instead he came on as a substitute for Real later on. I said before on this thread 90m for Higuain is ridiculous. By footballing standards he is fat. They call him Piggy. I am not being insulting when I say he played like a fat lazy bastard, a sunday league football player who had 10 pints to drink the night before. Then Dybala, just anonymous, when he came off you know Allegri has just given up, which was sad. Lemina came on as someone who was meant to change the game, really? Marchisio came on but too late. In that 45 minutes Juve let in as many goals as they had let in the entire competition. Let that sink in. Some say it was Real's class, but Juve's capitulation in the 2nd half and symptoms of it in the 1st half made it easy for a good team like Real to make Zidane, Ronaldo etc look "great" when they are a very good team, not as good as Bayern or even Juventus in my opinion, you just have to make it NOT a European Cup final and Juve will tend to fare better. I think they beat Real in 2015 with a far inferior team than they have now, but with Real's squad 9 of the 11 starting team still there. Semi finals, I think Juve would have taken Real down like they did Barca over two legs, but a one off final, Juventus still can't do it.

Juventus seriously needs a team psychologist. If they already have one, sack him and get a better one, someone radically different. I've never seen a worse half in a UCL final for Juve than the completely unexpected 10/1 shot Dortmund who nailed them 3-1 out of the blue, Juve were still known back then for their solid defence. Dortmund was only worse because the teams' quality wasn't even close, at least Real-Juve was pretty much even. As I said many (pretty naive) sports journalists are writing this down as "Real Brilliance", but when a team concedes more goals in one game than they have in the entire competition previously, having played teams like Barcelona and Monaco, I think 1080 minutes football total approximately, you really know something is seriously wrong. Either your whole team decided to have a quick orgy at half time and deplete all their stamina (a more conservative individual wank was suggested above but I think Juventus in the 2nd were even more depleted than a quick wank in a private booth!)... OR they had a complete psychological breakdown, which lead to the entire collapse of your entire philosophy of playing that you've cultivated over thousands of hours of playing games and training, plus the collapse of the entire shape you have played in all year which has been so successful, and finally, all players as individuals turning into their female counterparts for the last 45 minutes, because it finally hit them that they were in a final, and even after a fairly shitty 1st half, they were still level, they still had a chance, so naturally being Juventus in a European Champions League Final, the "Curse of Turin" hits every player in the head as soon as they realize they could actually win this thing.

After the game Juve players and fans had this big saying #BeProud or some shit. Man, if I had the quality that team has, and it is (very technically) Champions' League winning quality, and I had played like that, getting paid all the millions in the world, man, I would hang my head in shame. I know there's the Curse of Turin and 5 finals lost in a row now, but there was no excuse for a performance like that. Get knocked out because Ronaldo dived in the box and got a penalty in 89' 1-0? You could expect that. It's at least not cringeworthy. But damn, I don't think I've ever seen such a technically good team perform so poorly in my many years of watching football. Fuck #BeingProud, how about feeling sorry for the Juve fans who spent thousands to get there to see the game and are working class people living paycheck to paycheck? 90m for Higuain and most of their players could probably by a nice villa with a few weeks' wages, especially Higuain. Players and manager should feel ashamed, embarrassed, and fans... pissed off and let down.

At least in 2015 a team with an ancient Pirlo and Evra and Lichtsteiner with no Chiellini in the staring lineup gave a clearly superior Barca a good game, the game was entertaining and for a good period looked even. There was honor in that defeat because you could tell Juve gave everything but just didn't have the players or the right setup yet to challenge for the big title. This year they swept Barca aside, let only 2 goals in from open play the whole competition IIRC, then lost the arguably easier tie? By 4 goals to 1? Shameful if you ask me.

I feel sorry for Juventus fans more than I do Arsenal or Sunderland fans at the moment and that's saying something. They let you guys down!

Post: #3369

(06-04-2017 08:28 PM)Rocha Wrote:  I don't see any deflection in Cristiano first goal. It is a perfectly placed shot.

Watch again. I thought so too when I watched live, but go frame by frame and it's there. Ronaldo's shot couldn't have that kind of movement anyway.

(06-04-2017 08:28 PM)Rocha Wrote:  Real Madrid has the most talented team and players, Zidane just has to not fuck things up. The best wingbacks in the world (Carbajal and Marcelo), the best striker in the world (Cristiano), the best transition miedfielders (Kroos, Modric, Isco), plus Ramos, Varane, Pepe, Benzema, Bale, Morata, Asensio, James Rodriguez, Vazquez, Kovacic...

Juventus has a great team and they are perfectly tactically, but they just lack the Real Madrid talent, they do not have one player that can be considered a superstar other than legendary Buffon, or future superstar Dybala. Certainly not overpriced Higuain.

Totally agree.

Post: #3370

Rocha I just think for whatever reason you don't like Juventus. Read my post above about what actually happened in the UCL Final. You are either a supporter of Benfica or Porto IIRC, well, I know you would want to get to the Final, but to be honest, for a lot of Juve fans that I know, getting to all these finals doesn't mean shit, because they lose them all!

Higuain I said many posts above is overpriced, so we agree on that. It's not really the Juventus way to buy so high priced, but I think it was a combination of the overpriced Pogba money and to take the title away from Napoli (make Serie A easy so they can focus on UCL).

From the kick off Juventus didn't play their game. Not because RM denied it them, or because RM is a super team (Bayern is better as I said) but because they were just nervous for the big occasion, and while people thought that this Juventus team with previous CL winners with other clubs and outclassing Barca and beating Monaco with not so much effort, this time they would hold their nerve.

1st half Juventus should have been told to stop being so nervous and play their own game as they did against Barcelona. There is not much difference between Barca and Madrid in overall quality. Every time Barca's attack gets the ball it's a worry for any team. Not so much for RM who are more complete but not as good in attack. A defensive performance good but not as good as against Barca could have shut out RM from scoring. There was way too much space open for RM and Juve never gives away so much space, this was their fault and their nervous behavior affecting their defensive positioning.

It's very easy to say after the fact "RM is a brilliant side, much better than Juve", but before the match, everything was 50-50. Even though Juve has a curse of UCL finals, there was so much strength in the squad as a whole and individually that nobody really knew who would win. Over two legs like in 2015, Juve would have probably beaten RM because it's not a one off final.

If in any final, Juventus becomes another team, and always has. Nervous, poor positioning, terrible schoolboy error defending, inaccurate passing, little effort, running like they are blind. Oh my god, for Juventus fans the 2nd half must have been embarrassing. It's not to insult Juventus, in fact as I said they are after 4-1 still a more complete team than RM, and could beat them in a 2 leg semi final, but when it comes to European finals, since 1996, Juventus just becomes all the opposite of what they are famous for. It is sad for them because all the effort it took to get to the final, is erased in 45 minutes. That is not the "real" Juventus team, it is a team that is extremely nervous and mentally having a breakdown, trying to play 45 minutes of the most important game in the world. It seems they can handle the pressure of everything except the final. This curse continues. RM on the other hand, man, they're in the final nearly every other year, on average, 9 of their 11 played last year's final, they know very well the big occasion.

Juventus is probably the strongest team of the season on average, but also the biggest embarrassment in any final I have ever seen in my life. Maybe the 1st half against Dortmund in 1997 was worse, because Dortmund was an average team and RM is a good team. But damn... what a shame for such a great team. I think the only players I would replace in Juve are Khedira - I would change for a more hard Vidal type midfielder because Pjanic is the creator, and obviously Buffon getting old (plus he was shit in the final), and Higuain - ffs sell that idiot even if they get only 50m for him, he is fat and always fails in big games for Argentina and his club.

Soon Juve will have to also replace their ageing defence, which will be very difficult. And Mandzukic is not young either. Nor Alves. But this season, there was the right balance of experience and stamina to be able to beat RM easier than they beat Barca, but after this season players get older and they will have to leave. That's why it was such a great opportunity for Juve to win, but they left their brains in the dressing room and played like Pescara in the final.

I even think if you put Celtic in that 2nd half, Celtic would have no fear and they would run their asses off and give RM more trouble than Juve did in the 2nd half, because of no pressure and the passion and support of Celtic fans. When you say SPL team can do better than Juventus in a match, you really do know something in the 2nd half was wrong. I had my conspiracy theories of match fixing (throw the UCL final for 300m euro payment) or ball boys slipping Juve players drugs in their drinks at half time.

Biggest 2nd half collapse in UCL history. Biggest underachievers ever, goes to Juventus. The team should really be quite ashamed of the 2nd half. No excuses for such high quality, high paid players.

Post: #3371

Why are you trying to hamsterize Juventus defeat?
Real Madrid won better and fairly, and they have undoubtedly better players. Also I dont see a word from you regarding our boy Cristiano who is nowadays the undisputed best footballer in the world.

Also Dortmund 97 was not an ordinary team, I remember perfectly they had the core of the German team than won Euro 96 with legendary players like Sammer, Reuten, Moeller, Khoeler or Riedle, and also Paulo Sousa, Chapuisat, and on that specific game a monstruous Paul Lambert who totally dominated the miedfield.

And btw it is Juventus who is famous for buying referees and play against the rules, not the other way around, I dont see what is so much to love about that team.

I support FC Porto.

Post: #3372

I love the way Rossi is absent from this thread....

Ronaldo is a player you have to admire, despite some of his antics.

He came to England and dominated.

He went to Spain and dominated.

Post: #3373

(06-04-2017 08:28 PM)Rocha Wrote:  

(06-04-2017 07:36 PM)Patricius Magnus Wrote:  

(06-03-2017 03:35 PM)lonewolf1992 Wrote:  What a Flop cuadrado is, I can't stand his game or attitude, crappy player. I feel bad for Juventus, they came out on the second half to see Fake Mandril play.

Not sure he's a "flop". Did you watch him in both legs against Barcelona? He dominated Mathieu and then Roberto. He's not great, but hardly a flop. And this wasn't his best game but it was against Real Madrid and he only came on as a sub and had to adjust to the speed of the game. Bad attitude is obvious though.

As for the UCL final, two unlucky deflections for the first two RM goals. Madrid were clearly better in the second half, but that kept Juve from building any momentum. All those kinds of bounces went their way earlier, which is why they were able to only give up 1 goal onwards from the group stage.

I don't see any deflection in Cristiano first goal. It is a perfectly placed shot.

Real Madrid has the most talented team and players, Zidane just has to not fuck things up. The best wingbacks in the world (Carbajal and Marcelo), the best striker in the world (Cristiano), the best transition miedfielders (Kroos, Modric, Isco), plus Ramos, Varane, Pepe, Benzema, Bale, Morata, Asensio, James Rodriguez, Vazquez, Kovacic...

Juventus has a great team and they are perfectly tactically, but they just lack the Real Madrid talent, they do not have one player that can be considered a superstar other than legendary Buffon, or future superstar Dybala. Certainly not overpriced Higuain.

It's more than that - you can clearly see the influence of Lippi, Del Bosque, and Ancelotti on Zidane. He's an excellent manager - the RM job has eaten up and spit out tons of 'top managers' even with prior loaded squads.

Post: #3374

(06-07-2017 09:05 AM)rudebwoy Wrote:  I love the way Rossi is absent from this thread....

Ronaldo is a player you have to admire, despite some of his antics.

He came to England and dominated.

He went to Spain and dominated.

He will be back in the reasonably likely event that England lose to France in the international friendly coming up, mark my words.

Post: #3375

(06-07-2017 08:11 AM)Rocha Wrote:  Why are you trying to hamsterize Juventus defeat?
Real Madrid won better and fairly, and they have undoubtedly better players. Also I dont see a word from you regarding our boy Cristiano who is nowadays the undisputed best footballer in the world.

Also Dortmund 97 was not an ordinary team, I remember perfectly they had the core of the German team than won Euro 96 with legendary players like Sammer, Reuten, Moeller, Khoeler or Riedle, and also Paulo Sousa, Chapuisat, and on that specific game a monstruous Paul Lambert who totally dominated the miedfield.

And btw it is Juventus who is famous for buying referees and play against the rules, not the other way around, I dont see what is so much to love about that team.

I support FC Porto.

Juventus knocked Porto out quite easily. Now I see why you wouldn't mind Juventus losing, and why you might support Ronaldo. I personally think he is a good player, slightly overrated compared to other greats, but as a person a bit of dick. He cries when his team mates don't pass him the ball and is noticeably unhappy even if his team wins, when he doesn't play a starring role. As far as Porto goes, I think I've said this before but I would like Porto to go further in UCL, but it's not good when coaches like Mourinho and others are always circling around your best players. Players are forced to be sold because they demand it and the club doesn't have the finances to say no even to a 50m euro offer for some player. Something has to be done about that but I don't know what exactly.

There is nowhere I deny the obvious, that Juventus especially in the 2nd half choked. I give my analysis to anyone interested in soccer as I find it very interesting myself. If you don't like it don't read it, in particular if you think I'm making excuses for Juve's terrible display.

I'm also interested in how bizarre football can be sometimes, where excellent teams in 2 leg ties (Juventus) can be easily beaten in one match "big game" finals. Like I said above they need some top sports psychologists to at least try to stop this mental block. At the moment most of Europe is laughing at them and a lot of fans are starting to see that there is almost no point in reaching the finals if you lose every single time. This is especially interesting because physically and mentally I have not seen a more cohesive and hard to break down unit as this season's Juventus in a long, long time. The bookmakers had odds at 50-50, but a lot of pundits were saying quietly how they saw Juventus as favorites. RM are a very good side, but Juventus are equipped to deal with them.

There are so many tactical elements of what happened during the game that caused Juventus to lose aside from the obvious mental weakness/psychological breakdown in the big final, and one of these was the underestimation of your beloved Ronaldo. Juve had dealt very well with Messi/Neymar/Suarez against Barcelona, so Ronaldo/Benzema were not treated with the respect they deserved by the Juventus defence and midfield. In the game against Barca, you can bet when Messi was on the ball it would be any midfielder, wing back, or central defender on him in a flash to dispossess him. Ronaldo had far too much space and you know Ronaldo, he can do nothing all game but come up with a goal suddenly any time if you give him 2 seconds to work with. My point is that Juventus certainly has enough to deal with Ronaldo and Benzema, but that they did not deal with them on the day, due to a mixture of psychological issues as Juventus is plagued by on finals, and terrible individual performances. If semi-final, this Juventus team would beat the very same RM team, but in a final, it's completely different for Juventus. RM were beaten in 2015 by an inferior Juve side at the 1/4 final or semis (I forget). Juve is very good at 2 leg ties now, but in finals they can lose even against Porto. Honestly I think Porto has a good chance of beating Juventus in a UCL final.

There are for sure weaknesses in Juve's starting 11, but RM is not a perfect team either. My point is that there is far too much emphasis on RM's excellence when the reality is that Juventus by their own fault collapsed psychologically in the 2nd half and this was the primary cause of their defeat.

As for 97 Dortmund, yes, they had some good players, but 1995-1999 Juventus team contained absolute legends, better than today. Yet if a team of Zidane, Davids, Deschamps, Conte, Ferrara, Del Piero etc. cannot win the Champions' League as in 1998 against a good but inferior RM team, then you know there is something wrong with this club in UCL finals. In 1997 Dortmund had some good players, but Juve overwhelming favorites obviously, yet again this Juve team choked in the final. For people who became Juve fans after 1996 win v Ajax, that is 5 finals now lost in a row with not one single victory. It must weigh hard on the players.

I also read Allegri has a new contract for 7.5m euros. That's crazy, all he is doing is winning a weak league and he is now 3/3 in UCL Final defeats. The club president Agnelli also refused to comment specifically when asked about Juve's performance in the first 20 minutes of the 2nd half, which was like some shitty amateur team was playing. I think he should have criticized the players and the manager for throwing away the 2nd half for no reason at 1-1.

I've watched each team's journey through the UCL this year to the final, and one of the great strengths of Juventus is their organization, communication and success in the basic things such as passing, tackling, positioning, interceptions etc. In the 2nd half they couldn't even complete the most basic passes. I think one time one of their players messed up a throw-in or something, it was crazy to watch. These are basic aspects of football which are not the most entertaining but Juventus is not a side there to entertain, and it is very effective. Allegri had built upon the Conte era of strictness. If you have watched Juventus all season, you would know that the 2nd half collapse is completely out of character even against the best teams in UCL; it only tends to occur in UCL finals. This pattern has not been broken and until Juventus fixes their mentality they will just keep losing finals. It's good to get to many finals but past a certain point if you lose every one it does weigh heavy on the club. This is why the responses of the Juventus management and director are silly; there is a big problem at the club but they will not face it.

RM did well to exploit Juve's nerves and psychological weakness to turn it into a footballing collapse in the 2nd half, but RM are not the best team in Europe, I maintain that. This goes probably to Bayern. If Juventus could fix their mentality it would be between Juve and Bayern.

Now however the Juve team is getting old, the defenders need to be replaced soon, their weakness is also CM as I said; they need a DM like Vidal to make tackles and do the dirty work so that Pjanic can create more, and Higuain is just too fat and too shit, 90m for that? What a mistake. Can buy Morata and another good striker for that amount.

As for the match fixing scandal, I've heard you mention that multiple times. If it happened in the past, who knows. I have seen the charges that mention no specific proof of Juve having fixed any matches, but still they were punished by demotion to Serie B. Other teams had their sentences reduced to points deductions only. Either way, that was a long time ago now and Juve certainly has no need to fix matches anymore. All I said was, jokingly, it looked like Juventus came out in the 2nd half either on drugs or maybe the club was paid a huge amount of money to lose the final, because the difference between 1st half and 2nd half was like night and day.

You can talk all day about Juventus are an awful team and RM are awesome, and Ronaldo is awesome or whatever you want, but I only call it as I see it. Juventus had a brilliant UCL campaign followed by an embarrassing mental collapse against a good, but not brilliant, RM team. That is what happened.

Some part of you I believe wants Porto to be in these finals and they are not anywhere close. Yet if Porto developed a team as excellent and fascinating to watch as Juventus this year, and for example schooled Barcelona and gave the best of attacks defensive masterclasses at the highest level, I would be on this thread discussing how Porto did it and you would be very happy to talk about it. It's not my doing that Porto is an average European side at the moment. Hopefully they can improve and depose one of these big teams like RM, Bayern, Barca because it is getting boring to see one of these three teams win the UCL every year. That's why many neutrals have followed Juventus like many neutrals followed Leicester last season in EPL. Portugal has a relatively weak league like Serie A but you cannot even beat Benfica to the title. You should concentrate on being able to beat mediocre opposition from your own league first consistently, dominate your own league as Juventus has done, then step up gradually to the European stage. Juventus were absolutely shit in the final, conceding more goals in 1 game than in the whole competition, so it was an embarrassment for them in the end, but apart from performances in the final, your team Porto should take some lessons from Juventus, who recovered very well from being thrown into Serie B and most players leaving them. Obviously make your own strategies for the UCL final if you ever reach it, because Juventus have the worst record ever for finals, but 2 finals in 3 years after what Juve has been through, you would love Porto to do that, even if it ends in humiliation in the final.

I actually think the Juve manager should be sacked (he cannot win UCL), sports psychologists employed, and major punishments for players for their 2nd half performance, and a big overhaul of the squad which is getting too old and has maybe only one good season left in it. It's unfair on fans of Juve to bring them to so many finals with great confidence and great teams expected to win, then get totally destroyed.

Maybe you will like this picture: