Post: #51

This is absolutely hilarious. You storm onto this thread and get proven wrong on a few things. Not to mention I completely proved you don't know what you are talking about. But you want me to post my financial information ?

Just because you have a higher rep than me that doesn't mean you are in the right and I am in the wrong. Every time you post something and I prove it wrong you change the subject to something else.

I will continue to look for studies that shows returns on option traders, but I am not posting my financial records. You can take that as a victory if you want but why don't you counter anything I said about any of your other posts ?

I mean you made the claim I trade credit default swaps. Which I don't and never had. Because of your lack of knowledge on the subject you think credit spreads and synthetics are CDS's. They are option strategies.

Post: #52

(02-26-2013 07:26 PM)BIGINJAPAN Wrote:  This is absolutely hilarious. You storm onto this thread and get proven wrong on a few things. Not to mention I completely proved you don't know what you are talking about. But you want me to post my financial information ?

Just because you have a higher rep than me that doesn't mean you are in the right and I am in the wrong. Every time you post something and I prove it wrong you change the subject to something else

How did you prove me wrong?

You have ranted and said I know nothing. Yet you haven't proven anything. Screaming and going on tirades isn't proof.

You haven't proven your claims, namely that the average options trader is making 30% and that you personally earn better returns than Warren Buffett.

Now you're saying we should just take you on your word that your returns exceed not only the broader stock market's but also Warren Buffett's.

OK then.

Post: #53

Where to begin.

First you implied buffet was ethical. Then you said he is a great trader. Except he doesn't trade. I tried to explain the difference between a trader and investor, which obviously you still don't know. Since buffet isn't a trader and I am, that by default makes me a better trader. You should read some of his great " trades " in the last decade. Just check out his wikipedia profile. Everything you have said about him is wrong. Again I make better returns trading than buffet simple based on the fact that I do it and he doesn't. I never once claimed I am a better investor or make more than him that way. Reading comprehension is not your strong suit.

Secondly you start telling guys if they are so great why don't they start their own hedge fund. I still don't know why you think that is so great ? Hedge funds have been getting killed compared to the indexes. MikeCF why don't you go start a world wide gym ? One in every city ? I mean you know so much about working out and nutrition why are you even posting on a forum ? That pretty much sums up your answer to anyone that posted they were doing well trading.

You claim you don't know anything, yet you shit on any advice people were giving in this thread. How can you discount the advice if by your own admission you don't know anything about trading ? I certainly would never take someone's advice on a forum without looking into things first hand. But it sure can be a great spot for ideas.

Like I have stated before I am looking for real studies not surveys about option traders returns. But again you poo poo it and by your own admission you know nothing about trading. I mean who looks like the real jackass here ? You don't have a clue how options work so you do not see how easy it is to make 2-3% a month with low risk.

Again you also for some moronic reason made the statement I am trading CDS's. You thought that based on some technical option trading terms. Another clear sign of me proving you wrong. Also the fact when I mentioned making $10,000 from simply selling options. You don't understand how they work and you assumed I meant I had 10k in my account.

Up until this point I have NEVER ONCE SAID MY RETURNS EXCEED THE BROADER INDEX.

Post: #54

BIG,

Aside from knowledge of how to trade options, is anything else required aside from an account at a brokerage firm (TD Ameritrade, Scottrade, Schwab)? Do you need to subscribe to any other kind of financial service? This is an area I have been interested in learning about, maybe I shouldn't snoozed through that portion in banking law class.

Post: #55

Here is a good start to my claims. Using CBOE data some researchers found in 12 years options traders averaged a 62% return every year not including transaction costs. Meanwhile the dow returned 12.5% annualized over the same period. Also even during down years the option portfolio returned double digits.

Article: http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/13/busine....html?_r=0

actual study: http://www.nber.org/papers/w10925.pdf?new_window=1

I will continue to look as I know there is more info out there about this

Post: #56

(02-26-2013 08:28 PM)Menace Wrote:  BIG,

Aside from knowledge of how to trade options, is anything else required aside from an account at a brokerage firm (TD Ameritrade, Scottrade, Schwab)? Do you need to subscribe to any other kind of financial service? This is an area I have been interested in learning about, maybe I shouldn't snoozed through that portion in banking law class.

I don't use those particular platforms but I would imagine they provide similar services as my brokerage which is IB.

They provide real time data for stocks and currencies usually for free. But a lot charge additional monthly fees if you want real time data for options, futures and news feeds. Also some have really bad charting systems. i used to use machtrader for my scanning and charting, but in 2011 IB stepped up their game and provided much better scanners and charting. So now I stick with them for everything. I think for all my add ons I pay roughly $250 a month. But that includes a few extras for canadian stuff. Also a lot of platforms have really good scanners that are free. In my case IB just happened to suck at that at the time.

Depending on the kind of trading you are doing I would recommend IB. They have super lows commissions for options, futures and FOP's. Those are really expensive at most brokerages.

If you are doing just stocks or currencies then find one that has low commissions and includes scanners and some basic charting. If not you can use other free sites but the advantage is being able to place orders right from the scanners or charts without having to open and close different windows.

Also look for a platform that offers desktop platforms. Trading directly off the web sucks at most online brokerages. Desktop platforms offer faster order executions and also up to the second quotes. Webtraders can crash easier. If you aren't really day trading or swing trading it isn't that important, but it does feel good to get an order in at the right price and not get fucked by the platform.

Post: #57

I would have to agree that many options traders make 30%+ annualized returns. In fact, I have a friend who owns a small prop firm that easily surpasses that. However, they do take on significantly more risk but they are able to manage it well which gives them an edge.

With that said, at the institutional level (Warren Buffet), they care more about risk-adjusted returns. So, when people say "it's proven that nobody can beat the market in the long haul" they are talking about risk-adjusted returns. Risk-adjusted returns are measured through sharpe ratios, information ratios, alpha, etc.

Ultimately, traders who use high leverage instruments such as options or futures are able to make magnificent returns, specially with smaller accounts, but they do take on A LOT more risk. If you can manage that risk well, then you can make those amazing returns. So, an options trader can make 30%+ annually but they may make a worse risk-adjusted return than their respective benchmark. I guess the question is: would you want higher risk adjusted returns or a higher dollar amount in your account?

Post: #58

IB looks good, but I note that it requires minimum of $10K USD to open an account.

Post: #59

(02-27-2013 01:03 AM)juice Wrote:  I would have to agree that many options traders make 30%+ annualized returns. In fact, I have a friend who owns a small prop firm that easily surpasses that. However, they do take on significantly more risk but they are able to manage it well which gives them an edge.

Plenty of people have a good run, especially in a bull market. You can even run a Ponzi scheme in a good enough bull market. Madoff's wasn't the only fund that went bust when the market tanked.

Yet you don't hear from those guys when they get blown out. They'll move on to another profession or they'll do private wealth management or something.

And of course like Biginjapan no one produces proof of their market genius.

I only bang 10s after flexing my 18" biceps that compliment my 6'3" frame which is now sunning in the South of France on my yacht. Just don't ask for proof.

Post: #60

It's crazy how well the market has done under the last 2 Democratic presidents that most "investors" hated (Clinton and now Obama) and was such utter shite under George W. Bush.

You know most of the Wall St/investor money was backing George HW Bush in 1992, Dole in 1996, George W. in 2000 and 2004, McCain in 2008, and Romney in 2012.

Are these bull markets under Dem presidents just a coincidence?

Post: #61

(02-27-2013 03:35 PM)MikeinMKE Wrote:  It's crazy how well the market has done under the last 2 Democratic presidents that most "investors" hated (Clinton and now Obama) and was such utter shite under George W. Bush.

You know most of the Wall St/investor money was backing George HW Bush in 1992, Dole in 1996, George W. in 2000 and 2004, McCain in 2008, and Romney in 2012.

Are these bull markets under Dem presidents just a coincidence?

U.S. Presidential Stock Markets

Post: #62

(02-27-2013 03:35 PM)MikeinMKE Wrote:  It's crazy how well the market has done under the last 2 Democratic presidents that most "investors" hated (Clinton and now Obama) and was such utter shite under George W. Bush.

You know most of the Wall St/investor money was backing George HW Bush in 1992, Dole in 1996, George W. in 2000 and 2004, McCain in 2008, and Romney in 2012.

Are these bull markets under Dem presidents just a coincidence?

George Bush and his buddies took all the money. There wasn't enough left for anyone else to make any = declining market

Post: #63

(02-26-2013 08:06 PM)BIGINJAPAN Wrote:  Where to begin.

First you implied buffet was ethical. Then you said he is a great trader. Except he doesn't trade. I tried to explain the difference between a trader and investor, which obviously you still don't know. Since buffet isn't a trader and I am, that by default makes me a better trader. You should read some of his great " trades " in the last decade. Just check out his wikipedia profile. Everything you have said about him is wrong. Again I make better returns trading than buffet simple based on the fact that I do it and he doesn't. I never once claimed I am a better investor or make more than him that way. Reading comprehension is not your strong suit.

Secondly you start telling guys if they are so great why don't they start their own hedge fund. I still don't know why you think that is so great ? Hedge funds have been getting killed compared to the indexes. MikeCF why don't you go start a world wide gym ? One in every city ? I mean you know so much about working out and nutrition why are you even posting on a forum ? That pretty much sums up your answer to anyone that posted they were doing well trading.

You claim you don't know anything, yet you shit on any advice people were giving in this thread. How can you discount the advice if by your own admission you don't know anything about trading ? I certainly would never take someone's advice on a forum without looking into things first hand. But it sure can be a great spot for ideas.

Like I have stated before I am looking for real studies not surveys about option traders returns. But again you poo poo it and by your own admission you know nothing about trading. I mean who looks like the real jackass here ? You don't have a clue how options work so you do not see how easy it is to make 2-3% a month with low risk.

Again you also for some moronic reason made the statement I am trading CDS's. You thought that based on some technical option trading terms. Another clear sign of me proving you wrong. Also the fact when I mentioned making $10,000 from simply selling options. You don't understand how they work and you assumed I meant I had 10k in my account.
Up until this point I have NEVER ONCE SAID MY RETURNS EXCEED THE BROADER INDEX.

Can you break down a detailed explanation of the last time you did that?

What kind of resources did you study to learn the basics and what did you use as you advanced in ability?

Post: #64

who's up for a little stock pick em game? http://www.marketwatch.com/game/

Post: #65

(02-27-2013 03:17 PM)Menace Wrote:  IB looks good, but I note that it requires minimum of $10K USD to open an account.

You need to keep the account above 2k at all times to be able to trade. So If I was you and you don't want to start with that much just put 10k in to start and then withdraw most of it right away once the account is approved.

Post: #66

(02-27-2013 03:31 PM)MikeCF Wrote:  

(02-27-2013 01:03 AM)juice Wrote:  I would have to agree that many options traders make 30%+ annualized returns. In fact, I have a friend who owns a small prop firm that easily surpasses that. However, they do take on significantly more risk but they are able to manage it well which gives them an edge.

Plenty of people have a good run, especially in a bull market. You can even run a Ponzi scheme in a good enough bull market. Madoff's wasn't the only fund that went bust when the market tanked.

Yet you don't hear from those guys when they get blown out. They'll move on to another profession or they'll do private wealth management or something.

And of course like Biginjapan no one produces proof of their market genius.

I only bang 10s after flexing my 18" biceps that compliment my 6'3" frame which is now sunning in the South of France on my yacht. Just don't ask for proof.

Ok I am convinced you are either a woman or short. Your defense is so weak.

Trying to have a normal discussion and you jump on and provide nothing of use in this thread.

But what is even funnier is I blast through all your petty little arguments and all you have left is crying for me to post my personal financial records on the forum.

At the same time though you get all pissy like a little girl because some people want to meet up with the G-man. I could care less if he wants to meet with people or not. But you come out in full defense that that guy doesn't have to prove anything. But again you want me to post my financial records on this forum ?

Post: #67

Snoop: I will break down a trade tomorrow of how I executed a put sale. Most likely I am going to be jumping on the TLM craze that I see happening. I am going to be piggy backing the smart money.

Post: #68

1. Is the guy one hand shake away? Ignore
2. Is the guy showing percent gains? Ignore

Credit swaps are unrelated to options
2-3% monthly gains "easy with low risk" is ludicrous, I could retire on that. Options + low risk in same sentence is equally as dumb as credit swaps and options in the same sentence.

He didn't "earn" $10K he "made" $10K, selling options, that or he can pull down on any margin account. Earn = profits, make = risk involved, if you don't know what I am talking about close your options account now. I was hoping this thread was going to turn into a options strat thread on owning assets and selling the option. But instead it ended on nonsense.

That 62% average number is correct. All I have to say is 100x leverage. If you don't understand how that makes sense and is another proof point to not shoot for 62% gains, you're not good at math.

I only post on finance threads when people are going to get fucked, this one is going to make people lose a ton of money so that is the only reason I posted.

Finally, if BIG is doing well I'll go ahead and assume he is, good for him. But advising, or implying that it is easy to get 2-3% monthly returns to random dudes on the Internet to do this isn't cool. People on average can't even balance their own check book, and even the average dude on this forum does not know what an algo does (this also includes BIG because his description of an algo was also wrong). No, you are not more "liquid" than hedge funds. Yes you are more liquid than major mutual funds dependent on size and investment holding.

Anyway that's the end of that, if you want to take the conversation further PM me. This thread should be locked.

Post: #69

i like this chart

Post: #70

West Coast: Selling naked options is risky. Never said it wasn't. I used it as example of a type of strategy and I also will be breaking it down further today when I execute a real trade as a current example and it will give guys a chance to see how things work.

Yes options involve more leverage but that can all be mitigated with a lot of different strategies. That way you earn your 2-3% a month and lower your risk.

How was my description of an Algo wrong ? And explain to me how it is easier for a hedge fund to get out of a stock and not take bigger losses as compared to a smaller guy like me who isn't a market mover ?

Post: #71

(02-28-2013 11:32 AM)BIGINJAPAN Wrote:  West Coast: Selling naked options is risky. Never said it wasn't. I used it as example of a type of strategy and I also will be breaking it down further today when I execute a real trade as a current example and it will give guys a chance to see how things work.

Yes options involve more leverage but that can all be mitigated with a lot of different strategies. That way you earn your 2-3% a month and lower your risk.

I think it is great you are trying to educate people on how options work. The issue I have is with your 2-3% returns monthly, your typing style is making it seem like this is "easy" for an average guy. Anyone with half a brain knows that's not true. People on this board, since it is a board of men, are usually liars + losers or worse both.

So again, if you can prove 2-3% monthly consistently, I will fly to where you are and we will become millionaires in less than a year flat. Unlike your account I get margin... For free. So that means our returns would be weighted up another 35% on that 2-3% which means 3-4% monthly. We'll make it rain coke and bitches with that profile in less than a year.

With all that said, I also would also not be taking specific advise from MikeCF on Individual stocks. But his overall idea to just dollar cost down for an average guy is much much more acceptable than an average dude trading options because again average dudes don't even know how a down cut is worse than an up-cut. I am sure he won't disagree with me that he's not the person to talk to for individual stock picks as well.

Again if you have to choose between learning options or dollar costing into bonds + indexes. The choice is obviously to dollar cost for an average guy.

If you're doing better than market, or making money, or whatever. That's great for you for people on this forum though. I believe even you will admit that's a terrible idea. Hell there is a guy asking about your account and thinking that "dropping in $10K into an options account is too much money"... That's a red flag times 4 million. If you're making some play money on the side (hopefully more) that's great, good stuff, for joe average with $50K in savings nah... He should spend his time trying to make real money instead of earning a few bucks month trading options.

Hope that makes sense.

(An algo is a trading platform on minimal scale as well, if you own say 1M in aapl, you can run an algo to trade 100-200 shares only on a daily basis to take advantage of small sub penny decimal changes in stock price yielding small returns. Hedge funds can be $1M AUM or billions AUM, that is why you're not more liquid than a HF, a MF I agree with you).

What you are trying to say is that a hedgie can't move in and out in small scale. They certainly can. If A. Fund is small. Or B. they feel like it. There is no oversight, so it's not like a MF where I "have to" *move in*. I can sit at my desk and trade 20 shares if I wanted. Not that it would ever be done, but if I want to I can but why would I when I have a comp to do that for me.

Again there are some good strata, but this isn't a great forum by any means to go over options, most people will read that 62% comment I left and be confused as to how that means it validates options being bad.

TL;DR: average dude will get raped in options, HF have no over sight, algos aren't always block trades, don't take individual stock picks from random dudes on the Internet, if you're doing well with your strat cool but most guys are retarded and broke so just DCA down.

Also not trying to start beef here, you and mike would likely get along in person.

Post: #72

I can take your criticism because you come off as insightful and not a blowhard. I also know from your previous posts you do know what you are talking about.

When MikeCF mentioned dollar cost averaging, my response was pyramiding. Not options trading. I also mentioned that the best traders in the last 100 years used pyramiding.

As for HFT and algos and moving in and out of the market you are talking about apple which is a liquid stock and 1m in shares is a small amount. What would happend if Einhorn dumped his apple holdings ? Don't you think that would cause 66 other hedge funds to notice what is going on ? I mean the stock would tank if one fund dumped their holdings. That is what I am getting at. When I am talking about liquidity I am talking about the percentage of my account that I can liquidate in seconds to get out. Obviously I know they have more liquid assets, as you stated plenty have billions AUM. I guess my fault in not being more clear about it. But what I am getting at is it is easier for me to move in and out without moving the market and not taking unnecessary losses if I want to dump all my holdings.

Post: #73

(02-28-2013 12:27 PM)BIGINJAPAN Wrote:  I can take your criticism because you come off as insightful and not a blowhard. I also know from your previous posts you do know what you are talking about.

When MikeCF mentioned dollar cost averaging, my response was pyramiding. Not options trading. I also mentioned that the best traders in the last 100 years used pyramiding.

As for HFT and algos and moving in and out of the market you are talking about apple which is a liquid stock and 1m in shares is a small amount. What would happend if Einhorn dumped his apple holdings ? Don't you think that would cause 66 other hedge funds to notice what is going on ? I mean the stock would tank if one fund dumped their holdings. That is what I am getting at. When I am talking about liquidity I am talking about the percentage of my account that I can liquidate in seconds to get out. Obviously I know they have more liquid assets, as you stated plenty have billions AUM. I guess my fault in not being more clear about it. But what I am getting at is it is easier for me to move in and out without moving the market and not taking unnecessary losses if I want to dump all my holdings.

What you are saying is your order will be filled faster. Yes. But again that doesn't mean you're more "liquid" than a fund.

Go look up the proxy post any M&A activity, go through the proxy and find the sell prices at various price points, not even einhorn would ever click market sell on a real position.

Again what's a "hedge fund" a hedge fund is a entity with no oversight. In fact you are a hedge fund, so what you are saying is you are more liquid than yourself. See how that doesn't make sense?

Again if you're doing well with your strat that's sick man and sure sounds like it, but average joe with a few g's shouldn't bother.

I will leave my 2-4% monthly gain comment as well, you PM me any time you hit 24 months straight 2-4% return. I will fly out with a briefcase full of paper work and a personal stash as well (not just cash but coke as well for all the hoes we'll line up).

My example with AAPL can be applied to even small cap stocks.

Again, a HF means no sight, any individual is a hedge fund from a pure strat/liquid perspective. So it is impossible to be more liquid than yourself.

You are certainly more liquid than a major mutual fund or any firm or individual that has a 10%+ stake in an individual company. However you are not more liquid than a hedge fund that doesn't make any logical sense. Hope that clears it up.

Post: #74

In all honesty I was looking at coming to Cali for a month or 2 this year just to hang out. I am sure you and I would both rather be there than in Canada.

I will also be posting some real trades I am doing with options. People can judge for themselves if it is something they are interested in. Even simple strats as buying puts and calls or covered calls is something people should know about. Doing covered calls is such a great simple strategy with no downside really, unless you are married to the stock.

Post: #75

BIGINJAPAN you posted in another thread about committing mortgage fraud. Your plan was not only illegal; it didn't even make sense. When one of my boys (who manages a multi-million dollar RE portfolio) called you out on it, you went berserk yet again.

/thread-17191.html

You are a dude who is full of shit, plain and simple.

You can rant at me or whatever, but no one here (even people who hate me) would say I've ever dropped bad advice or been full of shit. Worst a guy can say is I'm a bit abrasive at times. But I never post about things I don't know about.

I don't even care about your dumb fish stories. I don't wanna see younger guys who don't know better get fucked and lose money.

As of now, they have been warned. "Buyer beware." If anyone gets taken, it's on them.