Post: #101

(12-30-2012 09:18 PM)captaingeneric Wrote:  I guarantee you that some more elite RVF-type forum would be created, where pick-ups would only be worth anything if they were done following some other arbitrary set of rules (hand-stand pig-latin game anyone?).

That's an interesting point, and we do see a bit of that kind of thing, don't we? Using good game as social standing amongst a community of peers. Man points.

And while some of that does happen, let's not reduce the desire to seduce submission out of a girl to only the desire to earn man points and trophies to show off to our bro's.

There is a satisfaction in having a woman be crazy into you and fucking you like crazy. Even if there were no other men on the planet, and none of the girls would ever talk to each other, MOST men would, given the choice and ability, prefer to be with women seduced rather than women paid for.

I mean, look at guys with unlimited income. What percent of them have sex only with prostitutes? Money is no object.

Because ITS NOT ABOUT THE MONEY! It's not a financial concern. For men, its a concern of genuine submission or not. Does she give the real puppy dog eyes?

Post: #102

(12-30-2012 07:20 PM)Moma Wrote:  Neil, the lizards in America are nasty and mean especially in some of the major cities. You spend some time out here a long time and you will see why some of the guys are forced to do that shyt.

Necessity is the mother of invention, you think Roosh would have been created if he lived in Sweden or even Holland?

You paint a clear picture.

But what of the many men on the forum who have very different attitudes and experiences? They paint pictures of loving and being loved by women. Why the disparity of viewpoints and outcomes? Are the viewpoints affecting the outcomes?

The problem with this chicken and egg cycle, is that unless there is some conscious effort to break out of it, guys wind up creating their own insulated experience - seeking out short term relationships that will reinforce their negative opinions towards women, and make them less attractive for romantic bonding. And further poisoning the cultural well.

Is there REALLY no other option in the west? They why stay there! It sounds horribly dehumanizing. And if there really is no other option, then how is it that so many men on this forum are finding other options, right now, in the west?

A word of warning though - if you think a change in location will cure cynisism about women, you're still looking for too many of the answers outside of yourself. Most guys get totally eaten alive by the girls in poorer countries. We are just a sport to them. There is no solution that doesn't include working on your own attitudes and abilities.

Post: #103

I'm thinking about how much of outcry there would be if the gov't legalized prostitution but put a cap on how much could be charged.

Post: #104

The qualitative difference between fucking a regular girl and fucking a hooker is of course a valid point. With that said, I know you may not agree, but I'm of the school of thought that money can in fact bridge the gap you describe. Time and experience will reveal how accurate that thesis is.

Post: #105

The idea is there is an unequal exchange between two people, and an exchange of money can be used to level things back.

But how often are we dating up and the woman is higher in value? More often, we're dating beneath our weight.

And would I do the gigolo thing for $35? No fucking way. The guys on that show are half saint, half therapist.

Post: #106

Holy shit, Gigolos might destroy the obesity epidemic!

Post: #107

(12-30-2012 10:11 PM)captaingeneric Wrote:  The qualitative difference between fucking a regular girl and fucking a hooker is of course a valid point. With that said, I know you may not agree, but I'm of the school of thought that money can in fact bridge the gap you describe. Time and experience will reveal how accurate that thesis is.

I lean towards thinking that money can be creatively used in seduction, but that it doesn't work well as a direct exchange for the woman to suddenly be seduced.

It could be that you could use it to open the door, and use your manly charms for the rest. A sugar daddy setup.

I'm planning on moving my lifestyle more in that direction for my later years. But I still think that direct payments make the girl less under the mans charismatic control, less bonded, less of a slave. Better to be indirect - regardless of the dollar amount. At the least the girl should lie to herself that she's not with you for the money.

Post: #108

(12-30-2012 10:04 PM)xsplat Wrote:  You paint a clear picture.

But what of the many men on the forum who have very different attitudes and experiences? They paint pictures of loving and being loved by women. Why the disparity of viewpoints and outcomes? Are the viewpoints affecting the outcomes?

I would say a majority of Western men, on this forum, have the same viewpoint. Why do you see video after video demonstrating how far some women will escalate with a man.

Quote:The problem with this chicken and egg cycle, is that unless there is some conscious effort to break out of it, guys wind up creating their own insulated experience - seeking out short term relationships that will reinforce their negative opinions towards women, and make them less attractive for romantic bonding. And further poisoning the cultural well.

Maybe you missed the videos of women behaving like men. Maybe you can construct some philosophy of how our point of view allows women to step up to a man and start kicking and hitting them.

Quote:Is there REALLY no other option in the west? They why stay there! It sounds horribly dehumanizing. And if there really is no other option, then how is it that so many men on this forum are finding other options, right now, in the west?

Most people have something called jobs which keeps them from simply moving away. Many of us don't want to live in a 3rd world shit hole anyway. Besides, no one said every woman behaves that way.

Quote:There is no solution that doesn't include working on your own attitudes and abilities.

Yeah, this bus driver really needs to work on his attitude.

Post: #109

I've been playing with the sugar daddy thing a bit. Direct payments are unnecessary and often unwanted as they are likely to make the girl feel like a hooker.

Think more along the lines of "Alpha Provider" and you'll be on the right track.

Some of these girls just want to be treated well, in ways broke 22 year old guys can't.

Post: #110

(12-30-2012 10:35 PM)worldwidetraveler Wrote:  

(12-30-2012 10:04 PM)xsplat Wrote:  You paint a clear picture.

But what of the many men on the forum who have very different attitudes and experiences? They paint pictures of loving and being loved by women. Why the disparity of viewpoints and outcomes? Are the viewpoints affecting the outcomes?

I would say a majority of Western men, on this forum, have the same viewpoint. Why do you see video after video demonstrating how far some women will escalate with a man.

Quote:The problem with this chicken and egg cycle, is that unless there is some conscious effort to break out of it, guys wind up creating their own insulated experience - seeking out short term relationships that will reinforce their negative opinions towards women, and make them less attractive for romantic bonding. And further poisoning the cultural well.

Maybe you missed the videos of women behaving like men. Maybe you can construct some philosophy of how our point of view allows women to step up to a man and start kicking and hitting them.

Quote:Is there REALLY no other option in the west? They why stay there! It sounds horribly dehumanizing. And if there really is no other option, then how is it that so many men on this forum are finding other options, right now, in the west?

Most people have something called jobs which keeps them from simply moving away. Many of us don't want to live in a 3rd world shit hole anyway. Besides, no one said every woman behaves that way.

Quote:There is no solution that doesn't include working on your own attitudes and abilities.

Yeah, this bus driver really needs to work on his attitude.

Worldwide, sometimes I wonder if we are discussing ideas, or if there is an unspoken personality conflict that is the issue.

But if it's ideas, and you want to discuss them without antagonism, I enjoy that. So you are saying that "Besides, no one said every woman behaves that way.", meaning it's possible to find women to romantically bond with in the west? And you are saying "Most people have something called jobs which keeps them from simply moving away." implying that a relationship of mutual affection and support is lower down on a list of priorities than a job position for quality of life satisfaction?

As for "Many of us don't want to live in a 3rd world shit hole anyway." I see what you are saying, but the characterization seems extreme. Most countries have modern parts that aren't third world anymore.

I have no arguments with you that there is bad behavior in the west. If you live in other countries you'll see different but equally atrocious other kinds of bad behavior from women, like cutting the mans dick off, or murdering him.

Post: #111

(12-30-2012 10:57 PM)xsplat Wrote:  Worldwide, sometimes I wonder if we are discussing ideas, or if there is an unspoken personality conflict that is the issue.

Why are you making this into a personal issue. I debated your posts with responses. I didn't see any response that attacked you.

Quote:But if it's ideas, and you want to discuss them without antagonism, I enjoy that.

Again, I responded to your statements without attack. Instead of making this into something personal, you can respond to my comments.

Quote:So you are saying that "Besides, no one said every woman behaves that way.", meaning it's possible to find women to romantically bond with in the west?

I do believe you can find women that will romantically bond with you. I never thought otherwise. That doesn't mean there isn't a problem allowing women to behave manly.

Quote:And you are saying "Most people have something called jobs which keeps them from simply moving away." implying that a relationship of mutual affection and support is lower down on a list of priorities than a job position for quality of life satisfaction?

Ask our fellow Torontonians. That place sounds incredibly miserable but they still stay.

Quote:As for "Many of us don't want to live in a 3rd world shit hole anyway." I see what you are saying, but the characterization seems extreme. Most countries have modern parts that aren't third world anymore.

I have lived in other countries including what some may think of as 3rd world. There isn't a comparison, even in the nicer areas.

Quote:I'm have no arguments with you that there is bad behavior in the west. If you live in other countries you'll see different but equally atrocious other kinds of bad behavior from women, like cutting the mans dick off, or murdering him.

Women have far more to lose for bad behavior in other countries that don't cater to them. That in itself keeps a lot of them in check. You hit a man he will hit them back and the police don't give a shit. Good luck with that in the west. To say it is a attitude problem of the men is ridiculous.

Post: #112

(12-30-2012 11:09 PM)worldwidetraveler Wrote:  I didn't see any response that attacked you, personally.

Cool.

Quote: That doesn't mean there isn't a problem allowing women to behave manly.

I missed the part where that subject came up. I totally agree with you that women need to be kept in line.

I'm a little jumbled up about where this conversation started and ended up - I feel like I just woke up with a hangover in another city.

On the whole I agree with you that women have more to lose in countries where they are more financially dependent on men, but I've seen and heard of behaviors many many times worse than anything you'll likely encounter in the west, and it's common. Putting the man in jail with no legal recourse also happens out here, but women can be even more vindictive than that, and get away with it. Even when a woman relies on some man for income, there is always going to be some other income provider. It's not like she's stuck with him.

But I'm not sure how we hopped on to the topic of cross cultural comparisons. Some men, on this forum, now, don't have a negative attitude towards women, and routinely and habitually form affectionate bonds with them.

The attitude difference you are trying to defend has nothing to do with other countries.

Post: #113

Correct me if I'm wrong, but does not a whore have to get wet for you to fuck her?

Post: #114

(12-30-2012 11:23 PM)soup Wrote:  Correct me if I'm wrong, but does not a whore have to get wet for you to fuck her?

Lube. Same thing you use on women that get dry after fucking them all night.

Post: #115

(12-30-2012 11:13 PM)xsplat Wrote:  But I'm not sure how we hopped on to the topic of cross cultural comparisons. Some men, on this forum, now, don't have a negative attitude towards women, and routinely and habitually form affectionate bonds with them.

The attitude difference you are trying to defend has nothing to do with other countries.

You're jumping to huge assumptions here.

Why do you think guys can't form bonds with women because of some negative posts they write here?

I think a lot of people think Roosh is a woman hater but if they read his book on Poland they would see that he actually does enjoy women.

It is just a certain type of women that wasn't very plentiful where he was from.

Post: #116

(12-30-2012 11:28 PM)worldwidetraveler Wrote:  Why do you think guys can't form bonds with women because of some negative posts they write here?

I think a lot of people think Roosh is a woman hater but if they read his book on Poland they would see that he actually does enjoy women.

It is just a certain type of women that wasn't very plentiful where he was from.

I should probably take the time to pick out some quotes, but 1) I'm too lazy, and 2) I don't want to antagonize people specifically.

So I'll just do a lazy handwave and say that my vague impression is that some guys are deliberately leading a lifestyle that is not going to change their negative views towards women, but will instead only solidify them, to the point where alternate approaches will seem unrealistic. Furthermore some wantonly damage girls in the process, perpetuating the same process for other men.

Post: #117

(12-30-2012 11:23 PM)soup Wrote:  Correct me if I'm wrong, but does not a whore have to get wet for you to fuck her?

Men can't fake arousal. But for women, there's:

Post: #118

(12-30-2012 11:35 PM)xsplat Wrote:  I should probably take the time to pick out some quotes, but 1) I'm too lazy, and 2) I don't want to antagonize people specifically.

So I'll just do a lazy handwave and say that my vague impression is that some guys are deliberately leading a lifestyle that is not going to change their negative views towards women, but will instead only solidify them, to the point where alternate approaches will seem unrealistic.

We are only getting a glimpse of a person through there posts. It doesn't mean that is exactly who they are.

A lot of negativity can breed more negativity and I happen to agree with you.

Not everyone wants the same. Some people want a wife, some want long term relationships but not a partner in life and some want to bang a new girl every week/night. That is up to them and I don't have any problem with any of it as long as they are happy.

For me, I like mini relationships like GMan blogged about. I think the sex gets better after building a connection but then gets boring after some time.

I am probably a lot more like you then you thought.

In terms of prostitution, I think it serves a good purpose and have no problems with it. I think it will fuck someone up if that is all they rely on.

Lot's of different types of prostitution. Women will sleep with men for vacations, paying bills, gifts, etc... I don't necessarily see it as a black and white sort of thing.

Does that mean there is no connection being made? Well, maybe and maybe not. I say there can still be a connection even if it isn't a romantic one.

Post: #119

Say you hit up a prostitute and became a loser for paying.

Do you become winner if she comes over days later wanting you to tap it again for free?

Post: #120

(12-30-2012 11:47 PM)worldwidetraveler Wrote:  

(12-30-2012 11:35 PM)xsplat Wrote:  I should probably take the time to pick out some quotes, but 1) I'm too lazy, and 2) I don't want to antagonize people specifically.

So I'll just do a lazy handwave and say that my vague impression is that some guys are deliberately leading a lifestyle that is not going to change their negative views towards women, but will instead only solidify them, to the point where alternate approaches will seem unrealistic.

Not everyone wants the same. Some people want a wife, some want long term relationships but not a partner in life and some want to bang a new girl every week/night. That is up to them and I don't have any problem with any of it as long as they are happy.

I know there is a constant danger that in pointing out other relationship options I'll be heard of as proselytizing my favorite. This is why I'm careful to often put in caveats such as "for men who are naturally inclined to intimacy", or "for non-dark triad men", or "for men who would otherwise choose intimacy if they had the option", and so on.

Yes, some guys just don't get much of a kick out of having the girl give him the puppy dog eyes and the full slave treatment. Some guys are more independent, and value more space. And so on. But, some guys just don't believe that being emotionally close to women in a satisfying way is a realistic option.

It's the chicken egg that is being talked about. Our experiences lead us to take certain views. But then those views solidify our experiences, and we get in a rut.

I'm not here to tell people how to live. But wouldn't it be a positive thing if someone noticed that he has other options, and explored them, and found a new way to enjoy a new type of happiness?

On a more practical note, sometimes dating older women or women in another country can be good training wheels to learn how to deal with the tougher cases of women. Starting in with the hard core bitches can be pretty well an impossible task.

Quote:Does that mean there is no connection being made? Well, maybe and maybe not. I say there can still be a connection even if it isn't a romantic one.

Agreed. Romance is only one frequency in a spectrum of ways to connect. But how much broadband can a guy plug into with an attitude like "who cares if the prostitute is getting off or respects me or not! I'm the client, and her job is to do her job."

And to bring it back on topic, my theory is that often using prostitutes is likely to lead to a negative rut, and lead to a character unlikely to break into a positive rut.

Post: #121

(12-31-2012 12:03 AM)xsplat Wrote:  It's the chicken egg that is being talked about. Our experiences lead us to take certain views. But then those views solidify our experiences, and we get in a rut.

It's only a rut if the guy is not happy and wants something else.

As I get older, I am getting more and more selfish with my time. That is one of the reasons I will only do short term relationships. I enjoy doing other things and do no want to cater to what someone else wants. That makes long term relationships almost impossible.

I have been far more happier once I realized this. I am sure some of my friends that are married and have kids think I am in a rut. haha

Post: #122

I'd be very curious to see the effects of legalizing prostitution would have on the mindset and mentality of women in the west. One of the reasons why the feminists are fighting tooth and nails against it is that they full know that legalized prostitution would take away their monopoly of pussy and all the flow of money, gifts and other incentives that they use to get from men in exchange of sex. And it would of course change the mindset and threshold for BS tolerance for a lot of guys on what they have to go through to get laid. Think of it in its simplest terms:
- cabbing it to the club 30-40 bucks each way
- 20-30$ cover charge
- overpriced drinks at 10-15 even 20$ a drink.
- 2-4 hours of putting up with all kind of BS and mind games not to mention attitude from some 3 or 4.
Total at the end of the night, you've easily spent 100-150 without any play or garantee for action.

Now put that versus paying a set fee of 30-50 or even 100 to have a hot sexy escort fuck your brains out for an hour or 2.

The point is that when faced with the above, a lot of guys, specially those with less game or those who value their time more than money and have no patience for all the hooplas they have to go through, then the 2nd option will sound very tempting. And that my friends is going to make a looooot of women out there extremely unhappy. As guys would realize they no longer need to put up with all their crap nor to shell so much for little or no return at all. So from that perspective, it would definitely make the dating world out there a lot better and make girls come back to reality and make them reconsider their grossly inflated sense of entitlement and horrible attitude.

Currently the dating scene in NA is nothing short of legalized prostitution as Mark Rudov nicely put it here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cANgHUOjpm4

And ironically, legalizing prostitution in NA would actually end this other more pervasive form of legalized prostitution that is the current dating market in NA.

Post: #123

Sex w/prostitutes sucks. I would never know, because I have never paid.

BUT, from my experiences w/shoring. The working girls sex is very mechanical and obligational. Not enthusiastic at all. It kills half of the experience for me.

I love when the girl gets into it... my 2c.

Post: #124

(12-31-2012 01:23 AM)DVY Wrote:  Sex w/prostitutes sucks. I would never know, because I have never paid.

BUT, from my experiences w/shoring. The working girls sex is very mechanical and obligational. Not enthusiastic at all. It kills half of the experience for me.

I love when the girl gets into it... my 2c.

Alright, but if markets are efficient and prostitution is legal we should expect to see believable hookers.

What percentage of guys would bother learning game then?

Only guys who have residual morals. Like guys with Catholic guilt, such as myself. Even then, pickup will recede even from its fringe position to be a truly marginal phenomenon.

Post: #125

(12-31-2012 01:28 AM)Therapsid Wrote:  Alright, but if markets are efficient and prostitution is legal we should expect to see believable hookers.

I lived in Thailand for a few years a decade back. Hookers were extremely cheap and legal. Just as I was leaving the trend was for a dramatic price increase and lessening of the girlfriend experience, but even at the peak of service, the qualitative difference between a pro and a non-pro was dramatic enough that most guys I knew rarely bothered with pros.

The pros are for tourists who don't have time or the knowledge of how to meet girls, and for the guys who lack skills. Guys with options rarely use hookers. At any price and at any service level.

Also, if you read stickmanbangkok.com you'll notice a strong trend that those who were into the pay for play scene the heaviest eventually get bored with it and just move on.

Prostitution is often a better option than what a guy was used to, but is rarely the best option a man who works to raise his value and skills can get.