Post: #26

I will leave you with this gold mine Re: first date bangs even though I haven't used it yet

/thread-8681.html

Post: #27

Cobra- NICE thread!!

I will go for the bang. My game is nowhere near as solid as this guy who obviously mastered first date bangs (hell, I haven't done any of this shit in over 5 years!!), but after THAT bitter feeling of regret on Valentine's night for not having approached a girl who was practically begging me to approach... I rather go full throttle and fuck up, than to not try at all.

Post: #28

(02-16-2015 08:59 PM)CleanSlate Wrote:  Cobra- NICE thread!!

I will go for the bang. My game is nowhere near as solid as this guy who obviously mastered first date bangs (hell, I haven't done any of this shit in over 5 years!!), but after THAT bitter feeling of regret on Valentine's night for not having approached a girl who was practically begging me to approach... I rather go full throttle and fuck up, than to not try at all.

Cleanslate:
FYI "this guy" is Tuthmosis - one of the forum moderators
That post of his is a classic

Post: #29

Okay I'll try to keep this short. Used Tuft's recipe to the T, got heavy makeouts, but with LMR and no bang... but pretty 99% sure I will see her again. I consider tonight a success.

We met at a wine bar, greeted with a hug and a kiss on the cheek (to set the tone for the rest of the night). We talked about a lot of things (comfort) and I can't possibly transcribe it all in a post, but here are some game-worthy highlights:

- I talked about the five senses, and if you lose one sense, the other four senses compensate to make up for the loss of one sense. In my case, I have a hearing loss, so "I am a very visual person who has a... (pause)... discerning appreciation for... (pause)... beauty". When I said those last 4 words, I looked at her up and down, from her face, to her tits, to her legs, and then back to her face. She gave me a knowing smile and looked away, blushing. This tells me she got my "drift". I wasn't outright hitting on her, and the words themselves are innocent, but this is an example of using nonverbal subtext to communicate my intent (covertly). Plus using the word "discerning" is almost like a neg.

- Used kino, back of my hand touching her leg or shoulder to emphasize a point, or to high five her when we found something we have in common with.

- Asked her if she liked to read books, and what she is reading. I said "let me guess, fifty shades of grey is one of them..." She said "No! I refuse to read that book and I also refuse to watch that movie, that would be a waste of two hours of my life." Wow, I'm surprised. Of all chicks I go on a date with in the middle of the 50 shades craze, she's one that refuses to entertain herself with that junk (and she doesn't even have facebook !!). That's also a clue that she might not be DTF that night, and I almost decided against on bringing her back to my place.

- But. I decided to gamble. When we were finishing our wine glasses, I was saying "you have to see that book I told you about!" and she said yes! Then I ask if she wants more wine, she says yes. Then I blurt out, "my place". Her eyes go wide in surprise, but she says OK. I think it was the Yes Ladder?

- We get to my place, I do a tour of the place, pour some wine, and 15 minutes later, we're making out. But then she pushes me away. Now here's the kicker that surprised even myself: I chuckled and said "you know you enjoyed that". Had I been 5 years or more younger than my age, or had I not gone through an agonizing divorce experience, my feelings would have been hurt - and it would have showed and ruined the night. Instead, I took the frame that "yeah, I know you're not ready, but you like kissing me anyway... when I see something I want, I go for it, no bullshit... and eventually, I'm going to wear you down."

- She's like, there needs to be a lot of dates before she... "you know". Then we talk about cooking, and I talk about my favorite dishes to cook. She asks me if I could cook something for her, and my response was, with a knowing smirk: "well, there needs to be a LOT of dates before I cook a special meal..." with a wink. She laughs and slaps my arm.

- We alternate talking and making out a few more times, and I end the date before she does. Her reaction to 50 shades of grey was a clue that she's not DTF. Who knows, a more experienced player who understands LMR better than I do might have banged her the same night, but *I* did my damnedest! I walk her to her car, and I spin her around for one last makeout with lots of heavy petting... I go for a hail mary "let's go back up", to which she laughs and says no again. I say "right, of course not... but you enjoyed that" with a wink. She smiles and nods, blows me a kiss, and drives off.

As I type, she sent me a text "thank you for an amazing evening, let's absolutely do it again soon!"

Okay, so I tried. This was unchartered territory for me, and I think I did ok. I'm really glad I tried instead of chickening out. Feels like I'm a running back getting 3 yard gainers against a good defense in this case. Would have been nice to get a hail mary pass into the end zone, but that doesn't happen every time, does it?

I'll see her again, pretty sure of that, but I want to meet more women and go on more dates, spin more plates... yada yada.

Post: #30

As for LMR...

popular opinion is that it is something that happens before sex. Not true. LMR starts from the first minutes of interaction when the girls categorizes you in some way accordingly to how you talk to her and how you treat her. This means working on LMR should start long before bedroom.
Basically girls have various issues with getting intimate. You as a guy should handle those as early as possible. Ever heard that it's the comfort that gets you laid? Well comfort doesn't mean large amount of time spent together or having same interests etc. It means feeling at ease about fucking you. Almost like feeling allowed to do it. That's it. By framing intimacy the right way you give girl permission to be sexual with you.

You do it by appreciating things you love and expect from a woman and dismissing things you can't. stand. For example you can say "i love when women who are very flirty and ooze of sexappeal it makes me feel like I'm with real grown feminine woman you know.. unfortunately many are stiff and shy about it like they don't feel sexy at all it's very off putting it feels like talking to some weird dorky 16 year old who just got her breast grown and has no idea how to deal with it". You can say stuff like that even to everybody in the group just stating your opinion. It gives the girl permission to be sexy with you. You say something like that and if that girl likes you a bit she will either get sex or completely give up. Other random thing might be "I hate when girls play their childish cat and mouse games when they obviously into a guy and want him now but constantly lead him on it's so fake and immature it's like they follow some stupid rules instead of following their true feelings"

Saying things like that lets the girl know who you are and what kind of behavior will be appreciated

Post: #31

"i love when women who are very flirty and ooze of sexappeal it makes me feel like I'm with real grown feminine woman you know.. unfortunately many are stiff and shy about it like they don't feel sexy at all it's very off putting it feels like talking to some weird dorky 16 year old who just got her breast grown and has no idea how to deal with it"

Very nice, I like that. I'm curious, how do you segue into that? Or do you just pop it out randomly? And you say that pretty early on during the first round of drinks?

Also, the strange thing is, I used to never run into LMR. Maybe because I hadn't tried banging them the first date, but on my second or third dates, we usually go straight into sex - zero LMR. Perhaps I wasn't pushing their limits like I did hers last night. I'll try your line next time and see what happens.

Post: #32

(02-18-2015 09:19 AM)CleanSlate Wrote:  "i love when women who are very flirty and ooze of sexappeal it makes me feel like I'm with real grown feminine woman you know.. unfortunately many are stiff and shy about it like they don't feel sexy at all it's very off putting it feels like talking to some weird dorky 16 year old who just got her breast grown and has no idea how to deal with it"

Very nice, I like that. I'm curious, how do you segue into that? Or do you just pop it out randomly? And you say that pretty early on during the first round of drinks?

I'm quite direct person when it comes to girls. I've learned not to waste time. It's natural to me to say things like that. I often say similar things to make myself clear and let the girl know what my intent is. After I make a move I say stuff like "you can leave if you want, it's fine, I won't be bothered, I hate wasting time" or "if you are just polite to me I appreciate it but you can tell me straight up if you're not interested" or "yup this is happening you can stop me or let me do my thing".

This is how I am. So as for that thing you quoted I say it as soon as I can. For example let's say I took phone number quickly and set up a date. In this case the date is like our first "real" encounter. I'd say things like that quoted thing in the first half an hour when we just casually chit chatting getting to know each other to let the girl who I am.

I can to lead conversation towards relationships topic cause it's very popular and everybody has something to say about it. And it's exciting for girls. But usually I talk about about my preferences at random moments. I see red dress in a shop when we walk down the street and I comment on that dress. I do it very casually like I'm just sharing my thoughts spontaneously whether it's rant about stupid dishwashers or how high heels turn a dorky little girl into a woman. I say these things hanging out in groups too like it's just another topic. So it can be very passive type of screening and qualifying [this is what turns me on and I will appreciate you very much if I see that in you].

Thing is.. I never criticize anything that might put off a girl too quickly. I only talk about what I love. I don't say "prude/shy girls are lame" I say "there's nothing better than being with a women who knows how to express her feminine sexappeal... it's sooo exciting". Carrot, not the stick.

Technically speaking it's like letting her know what she will be validated for which is tempting for her to behave in the way. This is the reason why the same woman treat differently a nice guy and a bad boy. Both guys set different expectations so she knows what kind of behavior will get her validation from each guy and adapts to that. It's an acceptance thing.

Try this for fun.. Talk about about how you love girl on girl action and how beautiful it is blablabla to let her know how open / liberal / nonjudgmental you are etc Then ask her if she's attracted to beautiful girls and dig some more cause maybe she might be still not at ease revealing that. But if she still says NO and is against it then tell her she's not wife material. Watch her world view crumbling in front of your eyes. Then add that if spending the whole life with one women is the right thing to do then that women also has to be everything you would like her to be in bed. If she can't then marriage with her is useless cause there all plenty of women that can be much more satisfying

Post: #33

Grocery store:

Walked up to athletic girl looking at health bars, "hey there's all these options, there's so many of them. What do you like?"
She enthusiastically agrees and points out the ones that she likes, shoot the shit for a minute or so. Tried dropping bait: "i'm familiar with those clif bars because i take them with me on my bike rides, pack it into my jersey an eat at a rest stop." Didn't bite, and I stalled as she walked away. Wished I opened direct in the beginning, and then talked about the bars, She might have stuck around a bit longer. Or maybe not.

Gonna head out to coffee shops tonight, and try to gret a few more in. Had a tinder date that flaked earlier today.

Post: #34

Tonight was kinda fruitless, and a bit frustrating. I've noticed a pattern where I under-estimate a girls interest during my approach, and I eject too soon. Two examples of this tonight:

1. Coffee shop. Was in line to get a cup of coffee, where I see a girl browsing craft beers, apparently trying to decide what to get. So I get my coffee and pay for it, and then go to her and open. I don't remember exactly what I said but it was to the effect of "hey, I saw you looking at these beers, and I wanted to come up and say hi. what are you looking for?" Then I told her about my beer hobby and we stay on that topic for a couple minutes. At some point here, she mentioned she's meeting with a friend soon. Then I try to go into GALNUC (see Day Bang), and asked her "by the way, are you half German?" "Nope" "Oh, I just thought... hey where are you from?" She's from here, and then I talk about how I've been here for 7 years. She asks where I'm from, and I tell her, and she asks why I moved here. I explained why I moved here. Note at this point, about 3 minutes in, she is asking me these questions. Then her friend shows up, and they start talking. I don't know what to do at that point so I eject "it was nice talking to you." Not sure what I could have done here, but she may have been more interested than I thought at the time?

2. Hop to a starbucks hoping to see more hot chicks, but it was full of biker dudes and not a single female above a 5. WTF? Maybe wrong time. I'm a bit hungry at this point and wanting a beer, so I go to a bar and order a beer and some appetizer. There weren't many women in there, so I figured I'd just eat and finish my drink then go home. However, I notice a girl - 8 - sit next to me along with two other people. She gives the bartender her phone, for some strange reason (??). I ask her why did the bartender take her phone, and that I don't usually go around giving other people my phones. She said something I didn't understand, but then I keep going, "so what brings you here tonight?" She said she's from out of town and visiting her brother (who was at the bar with her along with another female friend). I ask her what her plans are this weekend, and she said she doesn't know, and she heads back to Chicago on sunday. I say, "well I've been here for 7 years, so I know a lot of good places to go around here" (half truth, but whatever). She seemed intrigued by that, and then asks me how my night is going. I say "great, and this is my dinner here" (pretzel and cheese dip) and she kinda laughs. Then she turns her back to me, and talks with her brother and friend for a while. At that point, I didn't think she was really interested, so I finished my drink and food, and get up to leave without saying anything. As I take a few steps away from the bar stool, I notice her turning around, seeing that I'm leaving, and the expression on her face showed a tiny bit of surprise and disappointment. Maybe I should have said "hey, I'm taking off right now, why don't you give me your # and we'll hang out this weekend?" I honestly didn't think she was interested because of her body language, but that she turned back as I was leaving surprised me.

See, this is a pattern that I've noticed. I eject too early having underestimated a girl's interest. I mean, I know that I should take every interaction as far as it can go, but only on an intellectual level... I'm having a hard time converting that into ACTION. This is a big sticking point for me right now.

Post: #35

^ This is easily cured by approaching more girls in a day.

2 or 3 as a newbie you will have problems... get to 7-10 or more approaches in a day you get on autopilot because it is almost like rehearsing the same music act or play over and over. Instead of reacting to what she does you are just waiting to push her as far as you can. You push the interactions further almost out of pure boredom because the fear in your brain subsides your brain gets bored because it can predict what will happen.

Approach more in a single day and your problem may be solved.

Post: #36

(02-19-2015 11:21 PM)Travesty444 Wrote:  Approach more in a single day and your problem may be solved.

I agree that I'm not doing enough approaches and need to do more. As always, I'll report back on what happens. Thanks.

Post: #37

(02-19-2015 10:27 PM)CleanSlate Wrote:  See, this is a pattern that I've noticed. I eject too early having underestimated a girl's interest. I mean, I know that I should take every interaction as far as it can go, but only on an intellectual level... I'm having a hard time converting that into ACTION. This is a big sticking point for me right now.

Beware cause girl's interest can be tricky.

When a girl is very comfortable touchy and playful with you it usually means she's taken and loyal so she has nothing to win and that's the reason why she is so open. A single girl usually seems stiff, self conscious, quiet, attentive once she's attracted to you. She either just stands there not knowing what to do or rejoins her friends out of discomfort or anxiousness. We've all left some girls cause they seemed boring and had nothing to say

That "disappointed" girl seemed like a perfect example of that. This is a natural reaction of human being getting attracted to another human being. It's different from being bored/indifferent, it's more like being anxious a bit which shuts down her natural expression just like you shut down in high school around a girl you had crush on.

This is why it's so crucial to recognize it and keep on going despite girl's passive behavior or a few awkward moments here and there. It's much better to talk to less girls and have long interactions than being social butterfly all over the place. You will learn much more this way.

Good luck

Post: #38

Be patient

Post: #39

Talked to a girl at my apartment gym. I was sweaty, had no iphone with me, and was wearing an old t-shirt. Not a typical time I would chat up a female, but I pushed myself to do it anyway. No #, but I pat myself on the back for pushing out of my comfort zone.

I see her doing triceps exercises...
Me: Hey excuse me, you doing triceps? (yes) So I've been trying to figure out what the best form is for doing triceps, how do you do it?
Her: I don't really know, the way I do it is make sure I keep my upper arm straight and level, bla blah
Me: Cool, yeah I've been trying to do it the other way, but it's bad for the shoulders
Her: Oh I know, that's why I like doing it this way
Me: So let me try it... (do the exercises)... Oh yeah, I really feel it, that's good
Her: laughs
Me: (I plow onto another topic) So I just moved here a couple weeks ago, so far so good.
Her: Where'd you move from?
Me: xxxx. I moved here to shorten my commute. It was over an hour, and now it's 10 minutes.
Her: Wow, mine is 10 minutes too.
Me: (ramble a bit) It's so nice to have a short commute, since moving here, that's 2 hours a day of my life I get back!
Her: Yeah! you can work out and do stuff
Me: Work out, go out, have a life. (Then we talk about where we work, bla bla)
I don't have my phone with me because I didn't expect this (Game rule number 1: never go out the door without your phone!), we exchange names and say I'll see you around. Figure I'll see her again since she lives in the same apartment building. Nevertheless, always have my phone with me any time I step out!

By the way, I know I need to be patient and I have A LOT to learn, and A LOT of practice to get good at this. But I really want to push myself to do as many approaches as possible in the shortest amount of time as long as it is not at the expense of my other life commitments and hobbies. I'm 35, and the clock is ticking!

Post: #40

XXL - good post about LMR. All of my bangs in the past year or so have been LMR-free, because by the time we get to bed she's completely warmed up and ready to go.

CleanSlate - I like your attitude, you're making progress. GOOD JOB on using "yes ladder," it might be a PUA staple but I think it's very simple and works.

My only advice right now - don't go on dates at 7 PM, she might order an appetizer Go out later, 8:30 PM earliest.

Post: #41

(02-20-2015 02:47 PM)XXL Wrote:  When a girl is very comfortable touchy and playful with you it usually means she's taken and loyal so she has nothing to win and that's the reason why she is so open. A single girl usually seems stiff, self conscious, quiet, attentive once she's attracted to you. She either just stands there not knowing what to do or rejoins her friends out of discomfort or anxiousness. We've all left some girls cause they seemed boring and had nothing to say

That "disappointed" girl seemed like a perfect example of that. This is a natural reaction of human being getting attracted to another human being. It's different from being bored/indifferent, it's more like being anxious a bit which shuts down her natural expression just like you shut down in high school around a girl you had crush on.

This is why it's so crucial to recognize it and keep on going despite girl's passive behavior or a few awkward moments here and there. It's much better to talk to less girls and have long interactions than being social butterfly all over the place. You will learn much more this way.

This is gold and more advanced stuff and why XXL should have more rep.

Post: #42

Two more grocery store approaches, which went nowhere. I did see a girl smile at me as she passed me, but I couldn't react fast enough to stop her or say something. Maybe I should walk slower

Post: #43

(02-22-2015 02:31 PM)CleanSlate Wrote:  Maybe I should walk slower

Timing is very important.

Adjust your speed and direction to put yourself in the most advantageous position.

I like to catch them at "choke points" -- which are often more favorable for striking up conversation.

In the grocery store, "Choke Points" can be entrances, exits, elevators, escalators, shopping cart queues, lines, deli counters, napkin dispensers, free sample tables, coffee stations, etc.

Lots of grocery store information in this thread:

Trader Joes in Beverly Hills

Post: #44

Giovonny, your posts are very helpful and I actually realized that I forgot to get some yogurt earlier, so I went back to the grocery store. I scanned your post just before I went back to the store.

Actually, this time I went to a different store... Whole Foods. Oh my fucking god, that is a poosy paradise right there! Sample tables, food bar, coffee bar, deli counters, plenty of choke points to work with! I felt like a college kid arriving at a spring break destination... at a fucking grocery store?! I think I've been going to the wrong store all along. Who cares if I have to pay a premium at Whole Foods, that is my default store from now on.

I must have gotten a LITTLE too excited because I went for the # and invite for drinks too soon with a couple of girls. One of them seemed a little too young, though, and said "no I'm okay thank you."

Another one, I timed our exit at a choke point (I previously approached her indirect, so this was a re-approach) and said something to the effect of "if I don't ask you this, I might regret it. Give me your number and we'll go out for drinks." (I stammered over these words so it wasn't very smooth like that). She laughed and said "I'm kind of dating someone." I eject saying "ok well at least I tried." But you know what she says, "oh yeah, well, most men don't even try so you're ahead of almost all of them!"

I must have had chatted up 4 or 5 different girls while I was there, in the mere time it takes to pick up a tub of yogurt. 4 or 5 different girls! All for a fucking yogurt!

Next time when I'm bored, I could day game all day at Whole Foods!

Post: #45

"Oh wait, this receipt is missing something.. Your phone number."

^Got this off the forum. I got a smile and positive reaction out of it before but I assume it's harder to game the girls working there especially if they're busy, have a line of customers etc.

Post: #46

Been 1 month since I restarted game after a 5 year hiatus. Here are my 1 month day/night game stats - NOT counting Tinder #s or dates:

23 Approaches
1 #
1 date
1 makeout
0 bangs

Less than one approach a day on average, really need to step it up.

Post: #47

Make that 25. During lunch hour at the Houston Shops in downtown... one indirect, and one direct.

Indirect - I saw a girl wandering around aimlessly apparently trying to decide what to eat. I go "hard to decide, so many choices out here." She agreed, but walked away before I could get my follow up question out.

Direct - I saw a girl buying food so I timed myself to bump into each other as she exited, and said "I saw you over there, and I wanted to say hi" with a smile. She raised her eyebrows and said "Ohhh". Followed up with "what's up with you?" She said "I'm just getting back to work" and walked away.

Pretty much got shot down from the outset for both approaches (I pretty much laughed it off), but I feel good for AT LEAST walking up to women and saying something. There was a girl I saw before I did the first approach, but I wussed out.

My big lesson with a recurring theme: The feeling of regret for not having approached a woman is much worse than the feeling of rejection.

Post: #48

Day 2 last night with girl from post #29. Short version: more LMR, pushed for the bang until she got up and left.

Long version: Took her to a cocktail bar and spit my usual game, but added the following to steer us into a sexual direction and away from the idea of me being a beta provider...

- I brought the topic of belly dancing and slipped this one in: "there's something about belly dancers. They know how to express their feminine sex appeal, there's nothing more invigorating than being with these women... it excites me so much!" She brings up a friend who did belly dancing, and I say "well, she should join us right now!" to which she laughs and slaps my arm.

- Topic of marriage and relationships came up, and I pretty much dissed marriage. "What is it about marriage that makes people fat and have their souls sucked out in these suburbs? Not me, I'm a city man and not getting married anytime soon, probably never." She'd also been married once and divorced 2 years ago, and I tried to milk that to my advantage.

- Topic of hair came up, and she asked me if I prefer curly or straight (her hair was curly). I thought about it for a minute, and said "well, curly is easier for me to hold onto while..." (made a subtle grabbing gesture as if I was doing a girl from behind and grabbing her hair) then I stopped myself and said "no, I shouldn't say this" and laughed. I did all that on purpose in order to throw out sexual innuendo.

- We both had 4 drinks by the end of the night... which was hitting my own limit

- I threw out other sexual innuendos every chance I got

- At my place, we were alternating making out, LMR, and chatting, like last time. Then when I get ready to bang, she says she's sleeping on the couch and proceeds to lie down on it. I said "well, you sure? this couch is pretty bad for your back"

I help her up, but then she takes off all her clothes on her own accord except her thong and gets in my bed... thinking it's on, I take off my clothes and join. Straddle my cock on her, but she STILL keeps stopping me. I'm thinking to myself, "there's no way in hell I'm letting a girl sleep in my bed without me fucking her". And I think she realized that because she said "I'm gonna go". She gets up, gets dressed, and leaves.

It was as if she was fighting herself and refused to submit. I did everything I could, and I don't have any regrets about how it went down. I pushed this as far as I possibly could with the knowledge that I have.

At this point, I don't even think that if I done anything differently in days 1 or 2, it would have made a difference. I feel like if I ran the same script and spit identical game on 10 different girls, 5 or 6 of them would have banged.

But for my educational benefit, is there anything concrete or specific that I can do or say to let the girl know, unambiguously, that there's no chance of me being a beta provider in the future?

(and in case you're wondering, I've already nexted this girl. Number deleted)

Post: #49

A divorced girl giving you LMR while getting in your bed without clothes?

It's not about game, it's about respect. A girl can't just come in the bed naked without giving sex.

You did the right choice.

Post: #50

Now that I've done 25 approaches, I'm gonna take a break of a couple days and reflect on what I need to work on. I can already think of a few keys to improve on day gaming:

- better venue selection
- refrain from rushing towards getting the #
- also refrain from ejecting too soon
- plant my feet and talk until she gives me her # or walks away

Surely there are other things, but these are the main keys to improve for my next 25.

Also, since bike racing season is coming up, I'm going to have less time dedicated to gaming so I'm going to supplement with online game (okcupid, match, POF).