Post: #26

^^^ I kinda miss MGTOW Matt! He was swell!

Post: #27

(01-20-2015 11:59 PM)Snowplow Wrote:  I used to go by MGTOW Matt on here. But I never gave up and threw in the towel. I was constantly improving myself. I still gamed girls. I did my own thing. I like what the idea is, but lately it is sounding more for quitters and wusses. Thankfully we had a chance to change our user names.

Any movement that does not extoll excellence ends up being infested with quitters and wusses.

Post: #28

The premise of MGTOW is good: not putting the pussy on the pedestal, refusing to buy into the consumerist lifestyle, doing your own thing (ie. "going your own way") as opposed to buying into societal programming. It's a good launching pad but then guys take the freedom that this knowledge gives you and blow it on whining about how much they hate women and how the system is geared against men (basically kinda like the male version of feminists) and just generally wallow in their bitterness. I think you this type of behavior in lots of red pill communities - guys would realize the truth about the way society which understandably leads to them to be upset but then they never move on from it and try to raise themselves above it - but it seems particularly prevalent in MGTOW.

MGTOW guys should be looking up to men like Issac Newton or Immanual Kant who being virgins who probably actually less pooty then a good portion of MGTOWs. Not saying that these guys need to be scientific or philosophical geniuses since most people simply aren't capable of that but the should study how these men found what they were going to devote their lives to and to what gave them purpose and pursued it without caring if they were though eccentric by the people around them. Kant: "I have already fixed upon the line which I am resolved to keep. I will enter on my course, and nothing will keep me from pursuing it".

Post: #29

I was with this sandman guy until he betrayed himself by using some choice words and phrases that gave away a lot about them as a group.

Firstly, he used the phrase "social proof". That's not a common terminology. We know he trawled pua websites to learn that phrase and implement it in his perception of events outside himself. I've noticed long ago that while these guys only provide YouTube videos at best and critique everything manosphere, they rarely provide anything if they ever have except for their views about their self-ordained movement.

He also claims to be apathetic about societal change, but then praises men's groups for their activities and plugs another "mgtow" who's active in a social movement. He refers to mgtow growing as well. He makes a lot of assertions without backing them with examples or statistical evidence.

"Mgtows aren't asking for anyone's permission to change things, we're simply going out and being the change that we want to see"

I guess they don't realize that the entire pua-sphere, or manosphere itself for that matter, does that also.

They're like a barnacle on a sea animal; able to exist as something only while relative to something else. There is something inherently un-masculine about quitting, lack of actions or imposing of will.

Their vital mistake was creating complexity in the definition of their group instead of keeping it open-ended and singular in phrasing. When I first heard of this acronym, I thought the purpose was something like this; "A mgtow is a man that goes his own way. He does what he wants and doesn't cave to any exterior demands".

They're in great denial to call their movement a phenomenon; something that happens, but the cause is up for question, when study of the causes is already under way. I rest with this that these men are the ones who are fighting to stay relevant.

Post: #30

Actually, I heard the term social proof was thrown around in psychology before, and the book Influence has a chapter about it, not something pua invented.

Post: #31

(01-20-2015 06:54 PM)Roosh Wrote:  

(01-20-2015 06:43 PM)SamuelBRoberts Wrote:  I like the ideas of MGTOW, but every person I know who publicly identifies himself as one is a screaming sissy.

Yeah for "red pill" guys they sure are blind to the effectiveness of game.

Most MGTOWs vehemently deny Game or even if they don't then they say we serve the female empowerment by playing along their attraction cues.

It completely eludes them that Game is a just a way to communicate with women - not only sexually, but the principles work on your mother, grandmother or daughter just as well.

The MGTOW must treat women as men or just avoid them, which makes no sense at all.

No wonder the MGTOWs are favorites of AVfM and even the female anti-feminists have compassion and understanding them while only having scorn for us here.

Post: #32

I would consider myself a MGTOW. I realize game can work, but my mind always works thinking for the future. And sure game works, but what exactly are you winning in the USA? IMO, I have had enough pussy to know the consequences are not worth it for me in the USA. I don't want to have a little fun, then spend months worrying if she is knocked up, if she regrets it and presses rape charges, if she gets clingy, if she is psycho and comes after me in a vengeful manner. But each man should make that own choice, and it is easier to go without getting laid in your late 30's than your early 20's. So I cheer on young men learning game and learning to fuck and chuck, just be careful out there.

But, IMO, MGTOW is exactly that. It is men doing what they want in their lives and not falling into the societal pressure of having to get married and having to have kids, unless that is what they truly want.

I live beyond an extremely minimal life style and I work pretty much around the clock. I am not interested in traveling overseas if the entire time I am there I know I have to come back to the shitty USA. So I am saving overseas travel until I have enough money to never have to work again. I might already be there, but as bad as the economy is I am going to wait it out another 5 years or so. That is just what I want in my life, so I am going that route. I think every man should be allowed to choose what they want in their lives, but sadly most just settle for a life that society demands of them.

Thank God to websites like this one. It helps men realize there is more to life than getting married to some fat harpie who plops out 2.3 kids and demands you work your life away in some cubical job that you hate for 45 years.

If you want to use game to have lots of American women, travel overseas to find high quality foreign women, or just be left alone, what ever it is, go for it.

Post: #33

^Even in your late 30's (which isn't even that old), how do you go so long without sex?

Post: #34

(01-21-2015 06:05 AM)Deluge Wrote:  ^Even in your late 30's (which isn't even that old), how do you go so long without sex?

Without picking up random women for sex, over a decade.

Pay for play, about 6 months or so. I would rather pay for professionals who I know I am paying to go away, and professionals I have already vetted and known for years.

It is too risky for my taste. Each guy can decide, but knowing how great things were in the 1990's and to today, I want nothing to do with pick up in the USA today.

Post: #35

(01-21-2015 04:01 AM)Zelcorpion Wrote:  

(01-20-2015 06:54 PM)Roosh Wrote:  

(01-20-2015 06:43 PM)SamuelBRoberts Wrote:  I like the ideas of MGTOW, but every person I know who publicly identifies himself as one is a screaming sissy.

Yeah for "red pill" guys they sure are blind to the effectiveness of game.

Most MGTOWs vehemently deny Game or even if they don't then they say we serve the female empowerment by playing along their attraction cues.

It completely eludes them that Game is a just a way to communicate with women - not only sexually, but the principles work on your mother, grandmother or daughter just as well.

The MGTOW must treat women as men or just avoid them, which makes no sense at all.

No wonder the MGTOWs are favorites of AVfM and even the female anti-feminists have compassion and understanding them while only having scorn for us here.

Many of them are still hung up about equality. Sandman included. They want true equality which will never happen.

Post: #36

(01-21-2015 06:09 AM)It_is_my_time Wrote:  

(01-21-2015 06:05 AM)Deluge Wrote:  ^Even in your late 30's (which isn't even that old), how do you go so long without sex?

Without picking up random women for sex, over a decade.

Pay for play, about 6 months or so. I would rather pay for professionals who I know I am paying to go away, and professionals I have already vetted and known for years.

It is too risky for my taste. Each guy can decide, but knowing how great things were in the 1990's and to today, I want nothing to do with pick up in the USA today.

Speaking of risk, P4P is illegal where you live right? Statistically speaking you're probably more likely to get busted by the cops for that, then have an unwanted child (if you wrap it up) or a false rape charge. Just something to think about.

Post: #37

(01-21-2015 06:15 AM)Deluge Wrote:  

(01-21-2015 06:09 AM)It_is_my_time Wrote:  

(01-21-2015 06:05 AM)Deluge Wrote:  ^Even in your late 30's (which isn't even that old), how do you go so long without sex?

Without picking up random women for sex, over a decade.

Pay for play, about 6 months or so. I would rather pay for professionals who I know I am paying to go away, and professionals I have already vetted and known for years.

It is too risky for my taste. Each guy can decide, but knowing how great things were in the 1990's and to today, I want nothing to do with pick up in the USA today.

Speaking of risk, P4P is illegal where you live right? Statistically speaking you're probably more likely to get busted by the cops for that, then have an unwanted child (if you wrap it up) or a false rape charge. Just something to think about.

Both are risky, I have given up on pay for play over the last few years as well. I was speaking more over the past 15 years or so.

The elites want to separate men and women and I just don't want to get in their road. It sucks, but I can't do anything about it, other than free myself from the system (takes lots of money) and then move the hell out of this bizzaro-world.

But even if I did get caught, it is a minor misdemeanor v. a life time of slavery to the state (child) or facing a life sentence. No brainer.

Post: #38

There is too much negativity in MGTOW. I think it's infectious and too easy a copout even if you're feeling like you're fighting a fight you can't win. The commercialisation of game and self-improvement doesn't help. If you don't see results fast, it might be easy to conclude it's all not worth it in time and investment. If you see some results though, then you will at least have hope, and hope is all a man needs to conquer the world. When I got into game and self-improvement and some help from good friends I had a quick run getting several notches a month for some time, where as before I could never do such volume. That proved once and for all for me that game and self-improvement was real. Since I do sometimes have a tendency to withdraw into my head, I also understand where MGTOW might be coming from, if they never had those experiences of success I had.

That said, I also think there is too much focus on how horrible (western) women can be in the manosphere. Not that the people posting about it or linking it thinks that way necessarily, but it becomes observation bias if it's all you see. It would be better with more positive articles and blogposts about great experiences with women, from having learned game and how it changed their life. Whenever I read a post here or a blogpost, it's always the success stories which really inspires the most, not the intellectually interesting, but misantropic ones.

Post: #39

(01-21-2015 06:14 AM)infowarrior1 Wrote:  

(01-21-2015 04:01 AM)Zelcorpion Wrote:  

(01-20-2015 06:54 PM)Roosh Wrote:  

(01-20-2015 06:43 PM)SamuelBRoberts Wrote:  I like the ideas of MGTOW, but every person I know who publicly identifies himself as one is a screaming sissy.

Yeah for "red pill" guys they sure are blind to the effectiveness of game.

Most MGTOWs vehemently deny Game or even if they don't then they say we serve the female empowerment by playing along their attraction cues.

It completely eludes them that Game is a just a way to communicate with women - not only sexually, but the principles work on your mother, grandmother or daughter just as well.

The MGTOW must treat women as men or just avoid them, which makes no sense at all.

No wonder the MGTOWs are favorites of AVfM and even the female anti-feminists have compassion and understanding them while only having scorn for us here.

Many of them are still hung up about equality. Sandman included. They want true equality which will never happen.

I think you are getting MRA's confused with MGTOW. A person could be part of both, or one or the other.

MRA are concerned with equal rights and first started in the USA in the 1920's. They are trying to beat women, at a game that women have rigged with the voting majority.

True MGTOW just want to be left alone. They realize that society is a mess, most young women in the west are a mess, and they just want their peace and quiet. They realize there will never be equality among the sexes, that one will have the upper hand, and if women have the upper hand, the results are a disaster and they just want to get out of the road.

When I think of MRA, I think of some whiney guy that says "its not fair". While he is right, it isn't fair, whining about it or even using logic and reason with women will never work.

When I think of a MGTOW, I think of a guy that rides his Harley when he wants, dresses how he wants, and behaves around women as he wants.

Post: #40

(01-20-2015 09:34 PM)Felix88 Wrote:  ^I heard there is something called TFL and they are often got mixed up with MGTOW.

Personally I think MGTOW is kind of a oxymoron since a man have to cave his own path anyway whether he likes it or not.

All these acronym whatever "movements" are ridiculous, All I want to do is make money, travel, not get married(at least in the west) to avoid divorce rape, enjoy all kinds of great food world wide, see all kinds of cool shit, and bang lots of hot young (18-22 and yes it's possible for a man under 65 maybe even under 70) women of different cultures/countries.*

There's no reason to make a "movement" about that, . . .just do it, and share that info with other like minded guys! I have no desire to try and "change" or "Save" the world from the *SpOoKy* "EviLs of Feminism" I just recognize that the cards are stacked against me if I do what the current Feminized society tells me to do. So I do the opposite. You can't make that a movement, the acronym would be to long:

*MMTNGMINUSAOWESTADREDFWWSCSBLOHYCODCC

You can't even make a word out of that.

Besides, there are NUMEROUS countries that will NEVER fall victim to feminism no matter how many western women/manginas try to bring that religion to those countries: Korea(50 years of being at war + a history of being fucked with by foreigner powers for hundreds of years will do that), Japan (the herb guys and whatnot are a product of the shitty economy + clash of cultural norms that grew out of post war industrialization+ the fact that they were closed off to the world for generations while their imperial government fucked them in the ass hardcore. not feminism), Most countries in the SEA, mostly due to culture, Russia, China(even with the population being more male than female, which is a miracle, but the Communist Gov is actually keeping things together gender role wise+cultural norms).

Thing is, Femininity and traditional gender roles are actually NORMAL and ridiculously easy to maintain, it's in our biological nature (look at the threads on Kibbutzes) so even without a governmental steady hand, or a cultural reinforcement, this will revert back to those norms anyway. so really, there's no need for a movement, other than fair laws for the next generation of men in the west which won't happen, so the next best thing is to educate men about the "Matrix" they've been caught in, and how to break out of that matrix.

so in other words, This movement:MMTNGMINUSAOWESTADREDFWWSCSBLOHYCODCC

Post: #41

(01-21-2015 01:16 AM)TonySandos Wrote:  I was with this sandman guy until he betrayed himself by using some choice words and phrases that gave away a lot about them as a group.

Firstly, he used the phrase "social proof". That's not a common terminology. We know he trawled pua websites to learn that phrase and implement it in his perception of events outside himself. I've noticed long ago that while these guys only provide YouTube videos at best and critique everything manosphere, they rarely provide anything if they ever have except for their views about their self-ordained movement.

He also claims to be apathetic about societal change, but then praises men's groups for their activities and plugs another "mgtow" who's active in a social movement. He refers to mgtow growing as well. He makes a lot of assertions without backing them with examples or statistical evidence.

"Mgtows aren't asking for anyone's permission to change things, we're simply going out and being the change that we want to see"

I guess they don't realize that the entire pua-sphere, or manosphere itself for that matter, does that also.

They're like a barnacle on a sea animal; able to exist as something only while relative to something else. There is something inherently un-masculine about quitting, lack of actions or imposing of will.

Their vital mistake was creating complexity in the definition of their group instead of keeping it open-ended and singular in phrasing. When I first heard of this acronym, I thought the purpose was something like this; "A mgtow is a man that goes his own way. He does what he wants and doesn't cave to any exterior demands".

They're in great denial to call their movement a phenomenon; something that happens, but the cause is up for question, when study of the causes is already under way. I rest with this that these men are the ones who are fighting to stay relevant.

I think you're being a bit too harsh on Sandman here. I'm not a MGTOW, but I've got extreme respect for Sandman. First of all he establish that they are 5 different level of MGTOW that I don't know by heart, but 1 of these level is guy deciding to only to have short term relationship with women.

And by watching a lot of these videos, he never had a problem getting into relationship and when he took the Red Pill, he was lethal with women since he already had everything else set up lifestyle wise, including lots of $$$. I think he pretty much gave up on women unless she's a NAWALT, something that he knows is almost impossible anywhere, but he could be balling in pussy and I do believe him on this point.

He knows game for sure! And he's not against the manosphere since he use Reality Kings as a source on some of his videos. He's associated to the bad apples of MGTOW like we are associated to the bad apples of PUA(Julien Blanc). Believe me he's legit and I'll rep him even if I'm not where he's at relationship wise.


I'm still on mode of wanting to fuck these Bad Bitches. I don't remember who has this as a sig but: If women have the right to throw their pussy around like Joe Montana, then I've got a right to be Jerry Rice to catch it

Post: #42

(01-21-2015 10:21 AM)Captain Gh Wrote:  And by watching a lot of these videos, he never had a problem getting into relationship and when he took the Red Pill, he was lethal with women since he already had everything else set up lifestyle wise, including lots of $$$. I think he pretty much gave up on women unless she's a NAWALT, something that he knows is almost impossible anywhere, but he could be balling in pussy and I do believe him on this point.

He knows game for sure! And he's not against the manosphere since he use Reality Kings as a source on some of his videos. He's associated to the bad apples of MGTOW like we are associated to the bad apples of PUA(Julien Blanc). Believe me he's legit and I'll rep him even if I'm not where he's at relationship wise.


I'm still on mode of wanting to fuck these Bad Bitches. I don't remember who has this as a sig but: If women have the right to throw their pussy around like Joe Montana, then I've got a right to be Jerry Rice to catch it

I used to listen to some of his videos and he is absolutely against Game, does not believe it is effective, considers it a manipulation of women (I think he even used that phrase). There are some of his videos which clearly state that women are attracted by cars, looks and men cannot do much else. Furthermore he completely ignores the ability to impose Frame and use Game in a relationship. Not all women are completely gone into the feminist la-la-land. Some react strongly to a masculine man who understands them (gets it).

I personally am against definitions - ever wonder what Roosh calls himself? Some call themselves PUAs, seduction experts because that is how they make most their money. But even that may not define them really.

We tend to forget that men even in the good old past had alternative lifestyles - some geniuses living without women on purpose like Tesla, some being more Players and adventurers and most who could afford it having a family and keeping a mistress.

As a man you decide what to do - there is no need to label yourself MGTOW - most of them are certainly reading Game material, but at the same time denying it, claiming it's unethical or it's manipulation. Some even saying that they would love to have pussy, but it is too hard and they fear getting a girl pregnant. Oh - please - those are all excuses. The Teslas and mystics of the world are few and far in between. You deprive yourself of experiences and try to convince other men to follow your lonely defeatist path. At least the hardcore PUAs live life to the max having 1000x more experiences.

But alas - who cares - everyone is entitled to do whatever the fuck he wants. Wanna spend your entire life collecting bugs in jars living in a remote hut? It's your life.

We also have to remember that all those differences between the Red Pill men out there are counter-productive - we have all more in common with the Blue Pill crowd than it seems - even the MRAs who try to wear skirts for equality. Our individual lifestyles do not matter, since our similarities regarding feminism outweigh that.

Post: #43

Thanks for the linkage; don't forget Aaron Clarey - a lot of this dust-up happened because he dared to point out that some MGTOWs are simply losers who put on the label to justify their failures with women:





InfoWarrior's link to the No Ma'am site is the quintessential definition of MGTOW; it is an exceptionally harsh examination of female nature, sans the seductive desires present in Game analysis. It looks upon women from a masculine perspective, without displaying a single iota of interest in them. It's about the highest-dose Red Pill out there. It doesn't hate women - it's just completely indifferent to them.

MGTOW, then, is whatever you choose to do with yourself after coming to these frank realizations about the reality of women, and the state of law regarding marriage, affirmative action, and sexual harassment. Anything short of crawling back inside your mother's vagina should qualify.

Recently it's turned into a movement, however - despite No Ma'am explaining that you can't 'herd bulls'. MGTOW was supposed to be a philosophical perspective, not a collective group. Each man going their own way should go their own way. Jump on a motorcycle and ride.

By that definition, most of the men around here are MGTOW, but somehow it morphed into rejecting women entirely, and not just 'toxic femininity'. This strikes me as ridiculous. Cats are not good dogs, but that doesn't mean that I hate cats - it just means I don't expect them to guard my house. Furthermore, there's an extreme amount of sensitivity amongst some MGTOWs, who are up in arms fighting Aaron's assertion; they neither want to work politically (MRAs) nor better themselves for their own ends (Game), they just want to whine. If they were truly MGTOW they wouldn't be angry.

For the record, I met Paul Elam recently, and he seems to be playing a deeper game than the "Feminism for men" as some have described it. As I wrote recently, his goals and methodology are different than ours, but they (possibly) aren't opposed. "Feminism for men" would just give the state even more power - it would empower men against feminists, but it would leave everybody less powerful than they were 50 years ago. I don't think that's what he's doing.

Post: #44

I don't think they're blind to it. I think MGTOW'S see game as beneath them

Post: #45

Aurini is right that there seem to be multiple camps of MGTOW which can make it confusing.

Some MGTOWs go out, casually date, hook up, and what have you. They just have zero intent of ever getting married or entering into serious long term relationships. By that definition, nearly everyone on Roosh V Forum is a MGTOW.

The other part of MGTOW practice celibacy. They do not date, do not attempt to hook up, and even avoid P4P. These guys consider themselves "true" MGTOW. This seems to be the part of MGTOW that gets unsettled when criticism is hurled in their direction.

In Clarey's criticism of MGTOW, he is right. Some of these guys could probably never get laid if their life depended on it so they use the label of being MGTOW to shield their egos. They can pretend that they are red pill enlightened and snub their noses at the Game/PUA types. The truth is that they are unwilling to admit that they have failed as men and are too cowardly to address their personal shortcomings (whatever they may be). They are practicing avoidance.

Post: #46

(01-21-2015 11:18 AM)Aurini Wrote:  Thanks for the linkage; don't forget Aaron Clarey - a lot of this dust-up happened because he dared to point out that some MGTOWs are simply losers who put on the label to justify their failures with women:





InfoWarrior's link to the No Ma'am site is the quintessential definition of MGTOW; it is an exceptionally harsh examination of female nature, sans the seductive desires present in Game analysis. It looks upon women from a masculine perspective, without displaying a single iota of interest in them. It's about the highest-dose Red Pill out there. It doesn't hate women - it's just completely indifferent to them.

MGTOW, then, is whatever you choose to do with yourself after coming to these frank realizations about the reality of women, and the state of law regarding marriage, affirmative action, and sexual harassment. Anything short of crawling back inside your mother's vagina should qualify.

Recently it's turned into a movement, however - despite No Ma'am explaining that you can't 'herd bulls'. MGTOW was supposed to be a philosophical perspective, not a collective group. Each man going their own way should go their own way. Jump on a motorcycle and ride.

By that definition, most of the men around here are MGTOW, but somehow it morphed into rejecting women entirely, and not just 'toxic femininity'. This strikes me as ridiculous. Cats are not good dogs, but that doesn't mean that I hate cats - it just means I don't expect them to guard my house. Furthermore, there's an extreme amount of sensitivity amongst some MGTOWs, who are up in arms fighting Aaron's assertion; they neither want to work politically (MRAs) nor better themselves for their own ends (Game), they just want to whine. If they were truly MGTOW they wouldn't be angry.

For the record, I met Paul Elam recently, and he seems to be playing a deeper game than the "Feminism for men" as some have described it. As I wrote recently, his goals and methodology are different than ours, but they (possibly) aren't opposed. "Feminism for men" would just give the state even more power - it would empower men against feminists, but it would leave everybody less powerful than they were 50 years ago. I don't think that's what he's doing.

The entire criticism from those men of Aaron Clarey goes along the lines of the fact that Aaron in his criticism is deriving the worth of man from his ability to get women, a form of pedestalizing pussy.Likewise what worth is the criticism if such men(MGTOW) don't care about chasing women once they recognize the dangers and risks?

And in regards to Paul Elam. It seems that many men(like Chapin) seem to take issue with the change from the MRM to the MHRM as a form of pussyfooting around, trying to be foxy but in a futile attempt to appeal to a greater audience by this change of label.

Post: #47

^^I think more RVF members are interested in getting married one day then you realize. Multiple senior members have left over the years for that very reason.

Post: #48

(01-21-2015 09:46 PM)Deluge Wrote:  ^^I think more RVF members are interested in getting married one day then you realize. Multiple senior members have left over the years for that very reason.

Being married and being Red Pill are no contradictions - even being Game aware and married are not. In fact it aids your marriage.

Also @Auruni - I posted this on your site:

http://www.avoiceformen.com/miscellaneou...k-donovan/

Yeah – attacking Jack Donovan for standing up for masculinity just because he is gay does not mend rifts.

I too have been attacked in recent months by female moderators af AVfM by making a few comments regarding Game. The very moderators told me in no uncertain terms that I should get the fuck out - female moderators I might add.

They started using terms like being against gender-stereotypes just like the feminists do. They do this despite 80% of women who would gladly quit their dead-end jobs and love being supported by wealthy husbands.

Also despite them being dependent on a broad range of supporters they lash out at anyone. Why the fuck do they do that? And why does Paul Elam even do it attacking Matt Forney or Jack Donovan?

If I were to create an inclusive MRA, then I would take in EVERY MAN who is against feminism – it would not matter to me whether he was a professional PUA, a reclusive MGTOW, a Game-aware MGTOW, a homosexual or a religious married traditionalist. Since we all share the same views regarding the necessary change in the legal and social system, then why get upset about our differences? And yes – in that regard it would be wise to accept the women, but I would not let them attack Game-aware men just because it does not fit their feminine primary thinking.

While I too respect Paul Elam to a degree, I don’t think that his way is the best one and understand why many men have trouble following him in his quest – simply because he himself fires at them as soon as they try to reach out to him. Even if they criticize him, then what does it matter? He should act like a wise politician, because AVfM is best to be designed like a political party.

MRAs with the same AVfM talking points have been around since the 1920s and nothing has changed. While the Internet could change that it won’t if AVfM keeps alienating the majority of the ‘sphere.

http://goodmenproject.com/featured-conte...-movement/

Post: #49

I never said they were contradictions. Only that Reactionary Tree overestimates how many RVF'ers are mild MGTOW's who aren't interested in marriage or relationships. So far I don't know any existing members who've kept posting here after they got engaged, doesn't mean they've abandoned the "Red Pill" though. All the married members are guys who found RVF when they were already married.

Post: #50

MGTOW is a shining example of the fall of Western Civilization.