Post: #201

(08-03-2013 06:18 AM)jdreise Wrote:  I guess it really depends on where you want to live. The beach or the city? Perhaps the mountains? I didn't like Beijing but SH, Tianjin, Qingdao, Shenzhen, and Guangzhou all seemed okay. Ningbo is nice too and bit smaller but still big. Maybe check out Xiamen. I haven't been there but I've heard it's one of the more beautiful cities in China and has a really nice climate. Lots of islands and beaches in that region.

I lived in Tianjin for two years. Do NOT take a job there.

Its ugly, the people are horrible, the pollution extra bad, the women are super ugly, and for a city of its size, very little for foreigners.

Post: #202

(08-03-2013 07:28 AM)Purple Urkle Wrote:  @jdreise: Thank you so much for info. Was just about to sign in Zhuhai but am gonna' hold off. There are good waves on Hainan Island and hardly any surf culture. Funny, because there are a lot of surfboards and surf products made in China. I'm thinking there could be money down there in the future giving surf lessons or opening a surf school/camp? Haikou has the cleanest air in all of China, and I hear the water is pretty clean. However, the university there is only offering RMB 5000 and I imagine the cost of living is a bit high with the city of Sanya being a resort and vacation spot for wealthy Chinese. Any thoughts?

First off... Have you been to Hainan? It might be worth going and taking a look before you sign on to something like that. I think the salaries are lower there because of the reasons you mentioned. I'm not really sure about the beaches either. China seems to photoshop a lot of their tourism photos so it might be dirtier than it looks on film.

If your goal is to use teaching as a way to springboard into running a surf school then it might be worth coming and working for a bit less for a year or two just so you can make contacts, learn the language, and see if you really want to do it.

Do you know if there are any surf schools there right now?

Even though the university positions are seemingly sought after they pay less. I would imagine they have good working conditions or else I have no idea why people would agree to work for so much less than what they could make elsewhere. I think Chinadawg has been working in a university so maybe get his input as to why he chose that route...

As for cost of living, even in Shanghai you can find things at a good price if you take time to learn WHERE to shop. Some things are a rip-off here compared to other parts of China but some things are a real bargain without much of a price difference. I'd imagine Haikou to be much cheaper than the larger cities. Unless you're in the main tourist area of Sanya, prices should be okay. Again, this is just speculation because I haven't been there. I've just been to other touristic areas in China and this was the case. Universities usually pay for your housing so you'll probably spend 2-3k RMB per month just to cover normal expenses. It'll leave you with some savings but not as much as a position in the city.

If you want to get a feel for housing costs use this:

soufun.com.cn

Pop it into google translate.

(08-03-2013 08:28 AM)Majestic Wrote:  Lets be real.... They say you need a "BA" degree.... but do they really check? Couldn't you just print one out in photoshop? Are they really going to verify? Wouldn't just being white, having a solid bullshit resume and able to speak english be enough?... I would think from a Chinese mindset, having a good looking young white man is giving the school serious clout and looks good for business...

Like Suits said above, you can work under the table. Being a good looking white man who is at least 80% literate should be enough to get you some work somewhere. You should get the same pay rate with part time and privates that degreed, legal people get. I'm going the legal route so I'm not sure yet. Supposedly, there is a new law that says you have to have a work visa or the police will fine you and the employer and deport you. I don't know if they will enforce it and/or for how long.

IMO, if you want to photoshop a degree you could probably get away with it, especially around peak hiring season. Immigration is processing so many Z visas and FECs during that time that I would guess they don't check. If your employer checks, which they most likely won't, you might get fired. I've read anonymous stories on the internet about that happening to people but I'm sure there are tons of people working without papers or with falsified documents. If you go this route, you'll just have to tolerate the added risk.

Maybe get the fake copy notarized or apostilled in your home country and they won't check..?

I was thinking about bringing my 20 year old brother over here to snap him out of his dead-end situation. The kid just sits in my mom's house playing guitar and smoking weed all day, every day. Hasn't had a job in over a year and doesn't go to school. I asked the HR manager yesterday at the reading club if they hire people on student visas and she said, "Yes." I told her my brother was thinking of coming out this fall and she said she be happy to talk to him about working there. I showed her a picture of him and she said he was "handsome." I guess any moderately in shape, white male with blond hair is considered "handsome." I didn't ask about the tourist visa but I'd assume that it'd be okay to work on that too. Keep in mind this is for 220 RMB/hour in a highly sought after district in a first tier city. If you're in the 2nd or 3rd tier, it should be no problem. The only risk is getting caught by immigration although I don't know how big of a risk that is right now.

(08-03-2013 09:27 AM)Suits Wrote:  I lived in Tianjin for two years. Do NOT take a job there.

Its ugly, the people are horrible, the pollution extra bad, the women are super ugly, and for a city of its size, very little for foreigners.

Dude, you stuck it out for two years in a shit situation like that? Are you a glutton for punishment haha? Why didn't you just bounce to another city?

Like I said, it seemed okay. I went up there two weeks ago for two days to interview for an SAT position. They paid for train ride there and back on the high speed train and two days at a pretty nice hotel. The city seemed decent but not anything to write home about. The position I took was much better so I declined that one before I left Tianjin. I think the majority of Chinese girls in the East of China are underwhelming so I didn't really notice much of a difference in Tianjin. Of course there are so many girls that you see hot ones all the time. I much prefer the look they have in the West. Sichuan and Yunnan girls are more exotic looking. Xi'an was nice too. You can definitely see the Hui ethnic influence out there.

In your opinion, what are some of the more desirable places to live and work in China? Where do you think you'll end up if you come back?

Post: #203

(08-03-2013 10:55 PM)jdreise Wrote:  

(08-03-2013 09:27 AM)Suits Wrote:  I lived in Tianjin for two years. Do NOT take a job there.

Its ugly, the people are horrible, the pollution extra bad, the women are super ugly, and for a city of its size, very little for foreigners.

Dude, you stuck it out for two years in a shit situation like that? Are you a glutton for punishment haha? Why didn't you just bounce to another city?

I built a decent business there, tutoring and consulting with restaurants. Also had the odd TV appearance. The first year I spent there was for a school and I came back a second time because I had a serious girlfriend there (an American, funny enough).

Unfortunately, if you move, you gotta start over with building new connections, which is essential if you insist on earning 20,000RMB+ like I do.

Quote:Like I said, it seemed okay. I went up there two weeks ago for two days to interview for an SAT position. They paid for train ride there and back on the high speed train and two days at a pretty nice hotel. The city seemed decent but not anything to write home about. The position I took was much better so I declined that one before I left Tianjin. I think the majority of Chinese girls in the East of China are underwhelming so I didn't really notice much of a difference in Tianjin. Of course there are so many girls that you see hot ones all the time.

It is OK, but just about any motivated foreigner I met there hated the place and couldn't wait to move on. There is a lot of money making potential, however, and decent universities.

Quote:In your opinion, what are some of the more desirable places to live and work in China? Where do you think you'll end up if you come back?

Guangzhou or Shenzhen, only because they are close to Hong Kong, which I love.

Post: #204

I hate to throw race out there JD but is it too much harder for black guys? I know Asians are colorist and Africans give us a bad name with the pimps, drugdealers and scammers. I got stopped by police in Thailand twice and I have only seen police around less than five times in two months.

I have good photos, can be clean shaven, and dress professional whenever the school or agency sees me. No tats . Are my chances of landing a job significantly lower or just a little bit? Regardless, I know I have to put in extra work but I dont want to make that jump in vain when I can hit Thai or South Korea with less problems.

Post: #205

(08-04-2013 10:45 AM)TexasMade Wrote:  I hate to throw race out there JD but is it too much harder for black guys? I know Asians are colorist and Africans give us a bad name with the pimps, drugdealers and scammers. I got stopped by police in Thailand twice and I have only seen police around less than five times in two months.

I have good photos, can be clean shaven, and dress professional whenever the school or agency sees me. No tats . Are my chances of landing a job significantly lower or just a little bit? Regardless, I know I have to put in extra work but I dont want to make that jump in vain when I can hit Thai or South Korea with less problems.

Significantly lower.

You'll have to be smarter than the rest.

I know a guy who made bank, despite being black and from Africa (therefore presumed to not have the "right" American/Western accent, and he didn't).

He spoke excellent Chinese, due to lots of hard work and time put in during a shorter period of time. He understood aspects of the culture better than many.

And he knew how to negotiate and make people love him (alter initial perceptions).

He'd show up to offer his services when a job was available somewhere in the suburbs of Tianjin. Knowing that it would be hard for them to find anyone else willing to put in the travel time, he'd offer to teach the class just until they found someone whiter.

Then he'd focus on making all the students love him in the short time that he'd have to do so. If the school was able to find a whiter teacher, the parents would protest, because their kids already absolutely loved the teacher they already had.

You will be at a disadvantage, but if you really bring it, you could actually make more money than those who are substantially white.

Post: #206

(08-04-2013 10:45 AM)TexasMade Wrote:  I hate to throw race out there JD but is it too much harder for black guys? I know Asians are colorist and Africans give us a bad name with the pimps, drugdealers and scammers. I got stopped by police in Thailand twice and I have only seen police around less than five times in two months.

I have good photos, can be clean shaven, and dress professional whenever the school or agency sees me. No tats . Are my chances of landing a job significantly lower or just a little bit? Regardless, I know I have to put in extra work but I dont want to make that jump in vain when I can hit Thai or South Korea with less problems.

In addition to what Suits said, I'll just add some personal observations from the last month here:

First, and this is just to add some perspective, when I told my future boss I had an interview in Tianjin, the first words out of his mouth were, "Ahh, Tianjin. The people in Tianjin are very conservative. Not like SH." I would assume it's harder for black guys to work in a more conservative yet still rich and prosperous environment like that, although I don't know how much harder.

What do you think, Suits?

When I went to interview at the reading club on Saturday, the head teacher and curriculum developer was a 4'8' black woman with a bowling ball build from the States. Another teacher I meet there was a guy who was either a very very dark-skinned American of Arab descent or a mulatto from the Caribbean. I couldn't really place his features and didn't ask. His name was "Omar." If they can find work, so can you.

Yesterday, I had a second interview through an agency for a private lesson for a CEO (yes, Chinese will do business on Sunday). The agency had a advertising board on one of the lobby walls with actual teachers they employ. There were about 70 or so teachers on the board, complete with short autobiographies, country of origin, and teaching subject specialties. Out of that 70, there were about 10 with African features, a few with darker Latin or Arab features, and lots of people whose native tongue was something other than English. Polish, Russian, Spanish, etc. Also, a few ABCs and Filipinos. If they can find work, so can you.

I also see tons of billboards and advertisements with black NBA and soccer players. They are everywhere. Chinese seem to love the NBA. There are kids wearing LeBron, Kobe, and Tracy McGrady jerseys all over the place. There are basketball courts everywhere too. Maybe you can leverage that somehow---make or get a Physical Education certificate and teach P.E. or coach. It's possible. I like playing basketball so it's a lot better being here than in Thailand where soccer is the only real option for a pick up game.

I'm sure there's also those certain groups of girls that are in love with hip-hop and black guys since there seems to be in Korea and Japan. Of course, I wouldn't have first hand experience. I have a military contractor friend in Korea that does very well within those circles and with online game where girls want to be discreet. I also spent a couple weeks traveling with him and another contractor friend in the South of Thailand and he did well with the Thai and Euro chicks.

After a total of 3 months in China, I think it is really a much more open country in some ways than Korea and Thailand. I've definitely met more open-minded and rational people here than in Korea. The scale of the place might have something to do with that since they don't seem to have little man syndrome and there have been thousands of years of foreign influence in some shape or form.

Realistically, it's also more open in some ways than Thailand where a lot of that openness is really just a combination of "face" and being a corrupted semi-third world country where people don't care too much about much of anything. Sabai sabai. The "anything goes*" attitude in Thailand is very desirable though. The thing is, once you start getting to know Thais you'll find that they are super bigoted and lack any kind of intellectual understanding. I know it's not PC but it's almost as if they act like big children in most ways. It might have to do with face. You've probably experienced that.

Conversely, I've met some very open-minded Chinese on both trips and would have to say that you'll find more genuine intellectual curiosity in China than in Korea or Thailand. That's maybe something that will make it more tolerable.

You'll definitely feel more order and rule of law in China than in SEA but there is still a definitive feeling in the air of "not giving a shit" as long as you don't offend the government or start a fight with a Chinese person. You won't experience that in Korea. That place is high-strung to the max.

I also don't see how you can teach in South Korea without a degree... I've read about some methods for getting past their background and degree checks but don't know if they'd actually work. How are you thinking about approaching that?

Post: #207

I also plan to eventually get an ESL teaching job in Asia.

I've read a lot about China and South Korea being pretty prejudice against foreigners in general, but Africans and African-Americans in particular. I've also seen some news stories about schools refusing to hire black people in Korea.

Seems like Japan is a better choice for anybody. It seems like almost everyone has a good sex life there if they stay long enough and know the ropes/how to game the women. And I know Japan is a lot cleaner and safer than China. Did you guys ever have to worry about getting ripped off by scam schools or frauds after teaching for them in China? I've heard that's kind of common.

.

Post: #208

Anybody have experience or greater information on teaching English in Moscow?
From what I'm reading online it seems like it can be somewhat lucrative if you have the proper connections.

Post: #209

This has been some very enlightening discussion. Thanks, everyone.

I had initially asked about this on Dave's ESL Cafe. I was amazed at how rude everyone there was. Here, everybody is cool.

Post: #210

(12-11-2013 02:37 AM)puckerman Wrote:  This has been some very enlightening discussion. Thanks, everyone.

I had initially asked about this on Dave's ESL Cafe. I was amazed at how rude everyone there was. Here, everybody is cool.

It's a forum full of frustrated angry Beta males with no game.

You're not even allowed to entertain the possibility of talking to girls on that forum.

They don't understand that I primarily chose this career to travel and bang Asian girls.

They think I should have a passion for teaching or something :O

Post: #211

(12-11-2013 02:37 AM)puckerman Wrote:  This has been some very enlightening discussion. Thanks, everyone.

I had initially asked about this on Dave's ESL Cafe. I was amazed at how rude everyone there was. Here, everybody is cool.

What sort of rudeness did you face? What do you think was the reason for it? Frustrated betas propping up their own ego/justifying 5 years doing a go no-where job by sharing their superior understanding of the world?

Post: #212

(12-11-2013 02:37 AM)puckerman Wrote:  This has been some very enlightening discussion. Thanks, everyone.

I had initially asked about this on Dave's ESL Cafe. I was amazed at how rude everyone there was. Here, everybody is cool.

I know what you mean. I spent maybe 15 minutes on their forums. Every topic is met with this grumpy, maternal scolding. "Is this company ripping me off?" "Every company rips you off. You're the schmuck that gives all us real teachers a bad name, taking shit contracts and diluting the market so we people who actually enjoy teaching have to take lower salaries in turn. Also, all people from _____ country are rude and inhospitable."

Of course I am paraphrasing, but not much. It's sort of hard to explain without looking at their forum, but the overall tone of everyone who lurks on that board is disgusting. And I agree, people here are much more helpful. Here, you're allowed to talk about the pros and cons of teaching AND banging women. Sometimes at the same time.

Post: #213

The majority of info on Dave's is written by the frumpiest of the frumpy, useless academia, bitter, 20 something broads who cannot figure out why nobody is interested in them while they experience life abroad.

I was banned after some fat 50 something American 'eat, love, pray' broad who was doing her first gig in Mexico told me that I shouldn't insult the Mexicans by being a teacher if I didn't have a college degree. I had been teaching for 6 years at that point and was doing well in Mexico. I told her to come over to my place and say that to my face, the next time I went to login: BANNED. Had been on the forum for 4 years, she had just signed up.

Most of the people on there are in some sort of low paid corporate job and have never considered negotiating for salaries or leaving their high and mighty university gigs for which they are all paid ultra low wages. Tons of people on there have history/greek mythology/gender studies degrees and they don't fit in anywhere else. Lemme tell you, 15 years ago, you didn't need a degree ANYWHERE on the planet to teach English. NOW, because the market has been flooded with these useless, vocal fvcks, countries all demand a degree. It really is sickening because 0 of the teachers have anything remotely related to education but all act as if they do. I know 4 here that say this sh1t to me on a regular basis but are terrified of going home and having to work a non-academic job.

Post: #214

I'm deep in the process of this, except not teaching ESL abroad, but actual teaching abroad at diplomatic schools.

Once I go through all the hiring process, I'll drop a comprehensive data sheet on it.

Dave's is exactly what's already been said - a bunch of frumpy, bitter, can't do's.

Post: #215

(12-11-2013 11:06 PM)BadWolf Wrote:  The majority of info on Dave's is written by the frumpiest of the frumpy, useless academia, bitter, 20 something broads who cannot figure out why nobody is interested in them while they experience life abroad.

Most of the people on there are in some sort of low paid corporate job and have never considered negotiating for salaries or leaving their high and mighty university gigs for which they are all paid ultra low wages. Tons of people on there have history/greek mythology/gender studies degrees and they don't fit in anywhere else. Lemme tell you, 15 years ago, you didn't need a degree ANYWHERE on the planet to teach English. NOW, because the market has been flooded with these useless, vocal fvcks, countries all demand a degree. It really is sickening because 0 of the teachers have anything remotely related to education but all act as if they do. I know 4 here that say this sh1t to me on a regular basis but are terrified of going home and having to work a non-academic job.

People with useless B.A. degrees who consider themselves "educated" are quickly becoming humbled as the Information Age wipes out the vestiges of the Industrial Age.

I like to remind them that I could get just as much as education as they have by spending a weekend in a library.

Post: #216

(12-12-2013 01:37 AM)buja Wrote:  People with useless B.A. degrees who consider themselves "educated" are quickly becoming humbled as the Information Age wipes out the vestiges of the Industrial Age.

I like to remind them that I could get just as much as education as they have by spending a weekend in a library.

Buja:

I get what you are saying regarding practicalities of the real world learning being a great vehicle for knowledge. I appreciate that there can be a lot of kinds of knowledge - and some areas of knowledge are under appreciated.

Nonetheless, frequently guys seem to be hating on formal education and/or elitist privilege that frequently goes along with people who are able to attend college, and especially some of the "elite" colleges.

Don't get me wrong, I am NO fan of spoiled rich kids who never had to work a day in their lives.... and actually I come from a pretty humble background, myself.... so I can relate to working class issues.

Nonetheless, I attended a prestigious, "elite" college, and prior to that experience, I did NOT really understand how much privilege provides advantages.. especially that there were a lot of kids in my university surroundings that were born with a silver spoon in their mouths.

For example, I was in my mid 20s (and a bit older as a student), but some of the students in their teens, fresh out of high school, were much more able to talk the talk of privilege and to skate through what I thought were complex courses. I would be planning every hour of my studies during spring break to figure out how to get through all of the materials, while they were planning to spend their spring break in the Bahamas or in France or something...... and they did NOT need to spend as much time studying, as I did. I could hardly imagine going on any major trips, except maybe going camping with some local girls, while I am just struggling to pay all my university bills and to get through all of the toils of juggling college work and daily living.

In the end, it remains my opinion that there tends to be a lot of value in obtaining a degree and getting the formal education, and probably more so now days, as compared with 20 or 30 years ago. The guys who get screwed first tend to be those guys without college degrees. Even the guys with technical degrees will get screwed when the liberal arts guys are making the decisions.

Also, as an additional puncher, I tend to believe that there is a certain value that comes with formal education and the structure that goes along with "book learning." If a guy can make it through various rigorous aspects of higher eduction (and especially a very competitive school), frequently, he will tend to be in a better position to know how to learn... and how to think critically about a lot of areas of life and how to get more value from an afternoon in the library.

Before I attended University, I did NOT realize how much I did NOT know. I remain humbled by how much I do NOT know, and i am of the belief that I find it A LOT easier to identify areas that I do NOT know and to articulate and recognize various subtle arguments that I would NOT have realized without gaining some of those skills through various kinds of formal education.

Post: #217

(12-11-2013 11:06 PM)BadWolf Wrote:  The majority of info on Dave's is written by the frumpiest of the frumpy, useless academia, bitter, 20 something broads who cannot figure out why nobody is interested in them while they experience life abroad.

I was banned after some fat 50 something American 'eat, love, pray' broad who was doing her first gig in Mexico told me that I shouldn't insult the Mexicans by being a teacher if I didn't have a college degree. I had been teaching for 6 years at that point and was doing well in Mexico. I told her to come over to my place and say that to my face, the next time I went to login: BANNED. Had been on the forum for 4 years, she had just signed up.

Most of the people on there are in some sort of low paid corporate job and have never considered negotiating for salaries or leaving their high and mighty university gigs for which they are all paid ultra low wages. Tons of people on there have history/greek mythology/gender studies degrees and they don't fit in anywhere else. Lemme tell you, 15 years ago, you didn't need a degree ANYWHERE on the planet to teach English. NOW, because the market has been flooded with these useless, vocal fvcks, countries all demand a degree. It really is sickening because 0 of the teachers have anything remotely related to education but all act as if they do. I know 4 here that say this sh1t to me on a regular basis but are terrified of going home and having to work a non-academic job.

For this and the posts about China. +1

Arguably the best poster on this forum when it comes to English teaching/teachers.

I've wanted to high five the fucking screen at what this guy writes haha

Post: #218

(12-11-2013 11:06 PM)BadWolf Wrote:  Tons of people on there have history/greek mythology/gender studies degrees and they don't fit in anywhere else. Lemme tell you, 15 years ago, you didn't need a degree ANYWHERE on the planet to teach English. NOW, because the market has been flooded with these useless, vocal fvcks, countries all demand a degree. It really is sickening because 0 of the teachers have anything remotely related to education but all act as if they do. I know 4 here that say this sh1t to me on a regular basis but are terrified of going home and having to work a non-academic job.

A little off-topic for a moment...
Badwolf,
I agree with most of what you post on living/teaching in China but why the bad mouthing of history degrees or degrees in things like Greek mythology? As if everyone on Earth is just going to up and get a degree in computer engineering, finance, or biotechnology. The manosphere tends to be too black and white on that topic, IMO. I definitely wouldn't lump the "hard" social sciences in with something like "women's studies" or "social development." Disciplines like that seem to start with an ingrained bias. The study of history does not.

I have a history degree (biz admin minor) and I've never really had a problem finding work in the States or abroad... I used to work in international logistics before coming to Asia and did pretty well but hated sitting in front of a computer/talking on the phone/making cold calls so someone could make money off my efforts. If I do sales again, it will be for my own business. Teaching is actually a lot more stress-free and I put a good amount of money away due to the low cost of living and taxes. I should say that it seems like most people with college degrees can find work in the US if they want it and know how to maneuver in the system.

I don't really get the hate on this forum towards the humanities... What exactly is that based on? It's one of the oldest disciplines in the history of the world (Herodotus? Tacitus?). It's also something that constantly needs to be reinterpreted and made relevant for current generations. Events are constantly being reevaluated and so is the language used to convey their meaning. It's just what happens. Academics in these disciplines ensure that this knowledge stays with us.

While I was studying history, most of the people in my major tended to be pretty well-rounded. Maybe not all greedheads, but they enjoyed a wide variety of things. There were a few social outliers but I think you'll find that in any arena --- business, engineering, chemistry, etc. I've always met weird people in every line of work I've been in, not just teaching English abroad.

To Buja: You said he could get the same education just by spending a weekend at the library: That's like me saying I could learn computer engineering on the internet. Oh wait, I can do that, right? (I actually have been doing that) If you extrapolate this line of logic, pretty much all formal study is worthless. We could all just go to the library/surf the web and read books about history written by university-educated academics and get the same result... Without this getting too long-winded, I don't think that would be healthy for society.

In addition, I tend to be in agreement with many of the ideas that JayJuanGee has already expressed in the post above. I would also add that many politicians have undergraduate degrees in the social sciences. Say what you want about the usefulness/morality of politicians but they are people in power. This forum values power as an alpha trait, right? I'm just saying...

Of course there are other factors besides choice of major in the ascension of politicians but that holds true in most fields.

But, yeah, back to English teaching:
Yeah, this is a better forum than Dave's. I don't see any reason to go on that site and haven't clicked over there in a few years. Their job postings are low quality. You'll find much better job listings/forums after just a little perusing of google with country specific keywords.

Post: #219

JayJuanGee,

Just to let you know where I am coming from…

I was an engineering major and am a member of three academic honor societies. So I am not someone who is not "college material".

However, I take no pride in this. It simply means that I am a good memorizer. Albert Einstein did not do as well in math and science classes as I did...but I do not consider him to be inferior to me in math and science.

I have nothing against people who are born into wealth and teach their children how to maintain that wealth. I have nothing against the Trump family or the Hilton family or the Forbes family.

The only elitists I despise are the ones who gain wealth through government plunder via taxation and warmongering such as the Bushes and Gores.

(12-12-2013 02:17 AM)JayJuanGee Wrote:  In the end, it remains my opinion that there tends to be a lot of value in obtaining a degree and getting the formal education, and probably more so now days, as compared with 20 or 30 years ago. The guys who get screwed first tend to be those guys without college degrees. Even the guys with technical degrees will get screwed when the liberal arts guys are making the decisions.

Getting a "formal education" in liberal arts is getting less and less valuable as time goes on...especially if it accompanied by student loan debt. Even the mainstream media can't ignore this fact anymore. Again, it's an industrial age paradigm.

If the technical guys are screwed by "liberal arts guys", then they'll soon be out of business or out a job.

I've found that the people who are most proud of their "education" had the easiest majors.

I was working in a QA department. My boss was not present. In a vendor meeting with our food scientist and an assistant. The vendor asked if we were all scientists. I said no, only Dr. Lu is the scientist. (He is the only one who has actually done scientific experiments). Well word got back to my boss and she called me and was upset that I didn't think she was a scientist. I thought OK, she a degree in Biology and she thinks she a scientist too. Whatever. Turns out...she has a Psyc degree. Sorry honey you're not a scientist.

I worked at Fortune 100 company. The regional director of Public Relations was a non-college grad who started his career in the company as a manual laborer. There were many who bitched and moaned because he didn't have a degree in PR..or anything.

Anyone who meets this guy (and who has any common sense) would know that this guy is very definition of PR. He is excellent at his job. He's had photo opps with the current POTUS. He makes things happen.

Yet there are people at the company who learned Public Relations from Professors of Public Relations who have little to zero real world working knowledge of public relations and those people think that they deserve his job.

(12-12-2013 02:17 AM)JayJuanGee Wrote:  Also, as an additional puncher, I tend to believe that there is a certain value that comes with formal education and the structure that goes along with "book learning." If a guy can make it through various rigorous aspects of higher eduction (and especially a very competitive school), frequently, he will tend to be in a better position to know how to learn... and how to think critically about a lot of areas of life and how to get more value from an afternoon in the library.

Before I attended University, I did NOT realize how much I did NOT know. I remain humbled by how much I do NOT know, and i am of the belief that I find it A LOT easier to identify areas that I do NOT know and to articulate and recognize various subtle arguments that I would NOT have realized without gaining some of those skills through various kinds of formal education.

I believe all learning has value. However, it is not necessary to use archaic and overpriced methods to learn. I'm glad you learned what you learned...you could have learned those skills without a "formal education".

I disagree that any form of "higher education" teaches you "how to learn". To learn skills that really make a difference in the world, they must be performed not studied.

I can study bicycles and learn all about them but that does not mean I can ride a bike.

Taking a music appreciation class does not make one a musician.

Formal education has a high opportunity cost in today's fast moving society...not to mention the unreasonably high cost of tuition and books.

A college degree does not guarantee a good salary, lifetime employment, and a nice pension like it used to.

If someone likes to go to college and take classes (which I enjoyed too), that's fine.

But if they consider themselves more intelligent or more capable than someone simply because they spent more time in classrooms...they are deluding themselves.

Post: #220

"In addition, I tend to be in agreement with many of the ideas that JayJuanGee has already expressed in the post above. I would also add that many politicians have undergraduate degrees in the social sciences. Say what you want about the usefulness/morality of politicians but they are people in power. This forum values power as an alpha trait, right? I'm just saying..."

True but most cases they have to major in LAW or some other graduate degree due to the uselessness of their degree.They also often start out in gov't jobs because MOST entry level gov't jobs don't care about what degree one has..they go by credit hours(use to be that way but it has changed) History/PS degrees are very good though for Law school...since research training is developed.

And yes most liberal art degrees someone can learn the same stuff reading a lot..its called self education. In fact there are even degrees now that one can get that way. I actually had some credits that were self learned(includes all my FEMA /counter terrorism studies)

Post: #221

(12-24-2013 04:35 PM)buja Wrote:  JayJuanGee,

Just to let you know where I am coming from…

I was an engineering major and am a member of three academic honor societies. So I am not someone who is not "college material".

Buja:
I appreciate your point by point response, and I accept that many of your points are valid.

I did get the sense, however, that overall, you are denigrating the value of having a college degree, and you are continuing to defend that position and you provide pretty good examples regarding how, sometimes, experiences will beat out a college degree. But, I maintain that getting head without college to be the exception rather than the rule, and generally, guys should be shooting for some college education if he wants to get ahead in society.

Certainly, I do NOT come from a family of college elitists, and had I NOT attended college, I would have NOT recognized the sick disparities between college educated guys and non-college educated guys in terms of advantages that college educated guys receive – both tangible in terms of actual training and intangible in terms of merely having that certification.

Maybe you and I are NOT that far apart in recognizing the reality of that fact that guys get ahead with college education – because even with your examples of non-college educated guys getting ahead, you recognize that there tends to be a lot of social pressure to keep that non-college educated guy from staying ahead because the tendency is for the college educated people to get the authoritative slots and want to keep them and want to prevent non college educated guys from having those slots – no matter what is the profession.

Your various arguments about college education being harder to get today and that it is less valuable today seem to be in tension with one another. Anyhow, surely I agree with you that college education is harder to get and more elitist and regular guys are priced out of the market, and in that regard, if guys are dissuaded from going to college, then those guys are going to be disadvantaged more in the future because the college education will, in part, be a sign that a guy comes from the “deserving” class.

These societal preferences for college educated people and the placement of college educated people into authoritative positions is NOT going away in the future, even though you are going to be able to find examples in which non-college educated people get ahead – those examples of non college educated people getting ahead are going to continue (and possibly even increasingly) be the exception rather than the rule.

The good ole boys club is a fairly narrow group of people who are increasingly of the very wealthy and college educated, and for any guy to make any semblance in attempting to fit into that crowd or to sway that crowd to get your way with them, in my opinion, a guy also needs to have college education (both the practical and the certificate)… and the tools that are provided by going through such college rigamarole.

(12-24-2013 04:35 PM)buja Wrote:  Getting a "formal education" in liberal arts is getting less and less valuable as time goes on...especially if it accompanied by student loan debt. Even the mainstream media can't ignore this fact anymore. Again, it's an industrial age paradigm.

I think that you are being too practical, here. Surely, mathematics, engineering and science can be very valuable on a practical level, but it may NOT even matter too much about what a guy learns, as long as he networks and goes to the right schools. The degree is sort of like telegraphing that a guy is worthy of promotion and/or opportunity – and moreso in a world with 15% unemployment rate – most of those guys unemployed either did NOT go to college or went to an unrecognized college.

(12-24-2013 04:35 PM)buja Wrote:  If the technical guys are screwed by "liberal arts guys", then they'll soon be out of business or out a job.

Technical guys are very frequently getting screwed by liberal arts guys – unless the technical guy works politics and networking and can maneuver through obstacles beyond the narrowness of his technical training. Sure these guys can be very smart, but may also get run over if he tries to get ahead merely by being technically competent.

(12-24-2013 04:35 PM)buja Wrote:  I believe all learning has value. However, it is not necessary to use archaic and overpriced methods to learn. I'm glad you learned what you learned...you could have learned those skills without a "formal education".

I kind of doubt that I would have known what to focus upon without formal education at a higher level.

Since I do NOT have a well-to-do backgroune, I have NOT had the priviledge of a LOT of prep courses as I was growing up; however, there have been a few occasions, that I was forced into various prep courses, and then after the fact, I realized the various benefits of these prep courses that these rich kids who had been taking these prep courses were waAAAaay advantaged over me, and I had been learning the HARD way (which is NOT always better). My point is that rich kids taking prep courses are so priviledged, that we do NOT even realize what we do NOT know until we get some of those same opportunities, and I am NOT saying that I had a lot of those rich kid opportunies, but I have been exposed to enough of those rich kid opportunities to know that various kinds of formal education and direction can definitely direct guys to learn much better than ad libbing his learning by wandering around the library without direction (even when he thinks he has direction and even when he thinks he is being efficient and learning more than the book learners). The school of hard knocks does NOT always help to get the guy ahead when some professor can point the guy in the right direction – so long as he listens to the professor.

(12-24-2013 04:35 PM)buja Wrote:  I disagree that any form of "higher education" teaches you "how to learn". To learn skills that really make a difference in the world, they must be performed not studied.

I can study bicycles and learn all about them but that does not mean I can ride a bike.

Taking a music appreciation class does not make one a musician.

I agree with you that book learning may NOT assist if it is NOT put to practice; however, I would NOT argue that formal education precludes putting to practice the book learning. Even when it appears that college courses do NOT have practicality, the good colleges will attempt to force a certain level of application along with the book learning… and then when a guy gets out of college, he can apply what he learned in the books, even more. Guys are only given these opportunies to apply to practice, after getting the degree in the first place.

(12-24-2013 04:35 PM)buja Wrote:  Formal education has a high opportunity cost in today's fast moving society...not to mention the unreasonably high cost of tuition and books.

A college degree does not guarantee a good salary, lifetime employment, and a nice pension like it used to.

Agreed that there are high costs, but college degree is still needed to get ahead.

(12-24-2013 04:35 PM)buja Wrote:  If someone likes to go to college and take classes (which I enjoyed too), that's fine.

But if they consider themselves more intelligent or more capable than someone simply because they spent more time in classrooms...they are deluding themselves.

There are assholes everywhere, and sometimes people try to lord their certificates over you; however, if the guy has received the position of authority because of the certificate, and he is recognized for having the position of authority, then even if his subordinates are smarter than he is, the smarter subbordinates still have to jump when the dumb ass educated superior says jump, even though the superior may be a dumb ass. The ways of the world includes formal education, and denigrating formal education as UNNECESSARY is NOT going to be the road to recognizing what is likely necessary for most guys to get ahead.

(12-24-2013 05:22 PM)jimukr104 Wrote:  And yes most liberal art degrees someone can learn the same stuff reading a lot..its called self education. In fact there are even degrees now that one can get that way. I actually had some credits that were self learned(includes all my FEMA /counter terrorism studies)

I DON'T think anyone is saying that self-education is NOT possible, and probably there is a time and place for such self-education. However, if we try to rely too much on SELF education, either we are going to lose our focus or we are NOT going to get the credentials that are NEEDED to get our foot in the appropriate doors.

Post: #222

Anyone in here has experience or infos on teaching in Vietnam?

Post: #223

Hey I just thought id bump this thread because ive just passed my degree and wanted to ask some questions about teaching English abroad.

Bit of a background I'm 20 white from the UK and never travelled anywhere on my own and have only being on holiday in Europe with family/friends. So i've done some research and really stumped about how to make this happen.

1. What teaching English qualifications do you need I was looking on I to I and they have so many different options, which ones are needed to teach English and do you complete them at home or overseas, what's the best option for that.
2. Do you go with a big company i.e. (I to I) or do you just find a job by yourself, preferably I'd like to have something sorted out before I go?
3. How long do you commit yourself going for , i've seen 4 month internships where you get the teaching English certificate with it or do you just sign a contract with a school for a certain amount of timeand see how it goes?
4. I've seen a program by the "British council" where you spend a year being a "language assistant" out in China that seems fun has anyone on here done that program or have anymore information on it?
5. Where would you guys recommend going in asia?

These are all the questions I can think of at the moment, sorry for all the questions but I want to make the right decision and don't want to commit a lot of time and money into something that's ill advised.

If you can answer any of these questions or know of a good forum where these questions will be answered that would be awesome or if you don't want to post it here feel free to pm me

Post: #224

Go to Korea first

Absolute no-brainer IMO

Free flight out there, free apartment, 2000+ US dollars a month, everything sorted out for you on day one. And, well, it's a fun experience. As you're also British, I can walk you through it step-by-step if you decide to go for it.

Requirements: Degree, Criminal Background check. A TEFL certificate is absolutely NOT required to work in Korea. Neither is any experience (but lie on your CV anyway to make yourself look good)

When you get bored, run away in the middle of the night. Or stay and collect your severance then run off somewhere

As a friendly tip, don't trust any of these 'happy crappy' organisations which look more like a travel brochure than a place offering courses. i-to-i and other similar companies are notorious for giving people 25,000 Baht a month salary or something crap (if they don't manage to sucker people into 'vOlUnTeErInG'). They also sucker hundreds into paying for their TEFL certificate which are worth nothing more than toilet paper.

If you really, really are feeling the 'teach at the beach' thing and don't care about money, Run down to Hat Yai in Thailand. Hunt on your feet and you'll find a job for 30,000Baht with 3 months holiday rather than those crappy volunteering gigs they shove on newbies.

Post: #225

Cheers for the reply Leighton and for the warning about the big companies

Korea sounds good with them sorting out the stuff for you and the pay looks decent ( I don't know how expensive korea is).

Finally yeah I would really appreciate you helping me out with going through the steps needed to get the right information and to go through all the necessary steps.