Post: #26

It's like today's Abramovich. One day he's selling rubber ducks. Next thing he's taking over an oil company.

Post: #27

So getting back to Ava Gardner, the last years of the woman were basically the girls just wanna have fun years on steroids, the beautiful person turned into drunken slut, no man to keep her in check and just booze and sex, dancing and nights out. Well past her forties, ie past wall.

Tellingly she told Artie Shaw 'you know I like to be fucked rough but Frank, he makes love like a woman'. So while Sinatra was kinky and known to have asked girlfriends to do threesomes with prostitutes, he was not into rough sex, which Ava craved.

Sinatra was known to have a huge cock, his valet wrote that he had his clothes custom made to accommodate his largesse, and Ava Gardner famously remarked to Grace Kelly when they were filming Mogambo in Africa, after removing the loin cloth of an African 'Frank's is bigger'.

But that didn't help him, he didn't do Ava rough enough for her liking.

It's actually sad to see how Sinatra remained in love with Ava Gardner, constantly trying to rekindle things, while AG remarks to her ex-husband Artie Shaw that he makes love like a girl, and she fucks anyone she likes in an endless row of male consorts. Even Sinatra came to see this when he saw Ava drunk again and lamented his only love was a drunkard.

I am starting to wonder if love is indeed a mental illness as some believed in ancient times.

Post: #28

I believe that love is a combination ofmany factors: infatuation, attraction , chemistry, similarities and differences and also everybody has standards if that person meet most of them you are doomed.

I dont consider myself an alpha male, more a rebelios freak odd man of some sorts,probably the alphamale doesnt exist at all since you cant be an alpha in all fields, lets say you have a wall street executive, a wolf and drop himin a ghetto or in a jail, can he be an alpha there? can a drug dealer who runs a gang be an alpha in wall street or in high circles?I believe we are alphas in certain fields or area and betha or omega in others at the same time, now there are certain individuals who has the ability to adapt themselves to all situations in some ways.

I believe everybody has its weakness, as an example I have the ability to read people, their thoughts through mannerisms, the way they speak, body language, but I wasnt able with my ex wife, somehow I never thought of sitting down and probe her in any way. probaly thats was the situation with frank and Eva, she fulfill his standards add everything else I said so he cares deeply about her, enough to take her shit like he didnt did with anyone else, we all have some one like that, otherwise we may be sociopaths.

Post: #29

(09-27-2018 01:01 PM)puckerman Wrote:  It seems like every Superman eventually finds his kryptonite.

Funny enough, that's the sentiment of intro to "I Can't Get Started," an older song Frank commissioned to be re-written when he record it for one of his downer albums inspired by Ava, No One Cares.

The updated intro has the line "Superman turns out to be flash in the pan."

Sinatra discarded women left and right and bullied men just as easily (check the award-winning writer Gay Talese article "Frank Sinatra Has A Cold"). But he was not Alpha with Ava.

According to Kitty Kelly's bio and several other accounts, he not only threatened suicide if she left him, but pretended to kill himself by firing off a gun once when they were on the phone. This is not exactly setting the frame, or anything near Alpha.

She, for her part, was an early version of the "Sex In The City" type of woman and ended up destitute and alone by the late '80s. When she was dying of cancer, he paid her medical bills, even though he'd long since moved on and had remarried Barbara Marx.

A pretty good argument can also be made that Frank's last great album, She Shot Me Down, from 1981, is an ode to Ava. It's unrelentingly sad and wistful as it looks back on broken love affairs. It's an album that doesn't sound out of place next to Nick Drake's Bryter Layter or (believe it or not) Nico's most morose work, The End...

Post: #30

(11-07-2018 08:50 PM)Days of Broken Arrows Wrote:  

(09-27-2018 01:01 PM)puckerman Wrote:  It seems like every Superman eventually finds his kryptonite.

Funny enough, that's the sentiment of intro to "I Can't Get Started," an older song Frank commissioned to be re-written when he record it for one of his downer albums inspired by Ava, No One Cares.

The updated intro has the line "Superman turns out to be flash in the pan."

Sinatra discarded women left and right and bullied men just as easily (check the award-winning writer Gay Talese article "Frank Sinatra Has A Cold"). But he was not Alpha with Ava.

According to Kitty Kelly's bio and several other accounts, he not only threatened suicide if she left him, but pretended to kill himself by firing off a gun once when they were on the phone. This is not exactly setting the frame, or anything near Alpha.

She, for her part, was an early version of the "Sex In The City" type of woman and ended up destitute and alone by the late '80s. When she was dying of cancer, he paid her medical bills, even though he'd long since moved on and had remarried Barbara Marx.

A pretty good argument can also be made that Frank's last great album, She Shot Me Down, from 1981, is an ode to Ava. It's unrelentingly sad and wistful as it looks back on broken love affairs. It's an album that doesn't sound out of place next to Nick Drake's Bryter Layter or (believe it or not) Nico's most morose work, The End...

That is the puzzling thing isn't it, even with all the women chasing him, all his money, his fame, being the leader of the Rat Pack, at one time a senior chief at Warner Bros Records, and with all his documented boss demeanour in the recording studio, he could not maintain frame with Ava. He pursued her all his life. When they tried again as she hit 40 he tried to over-boss the situation with her and she decided to leave, but still pursued him all her life. Once when she was in hospital and Sinatra did not call, after marrying Barbara Marx, she expressed her disappointment and a press release by her sister about Sinatra not getting in touch was done. She was over 60 then and close to death.

After she died Sinatra sat on his bed crying for two days and his daughter Tina said his strong voice was only a whisper.

This cautionary tale of two human beings in love, but unable to live together, is one of the most fascinating stories I have ever come across. Why could Sinatra not make it happen with a woman who clearly loved him, it's a perplexing mystery.

Thanks for posting the great music.

Post: #31

(11-08-2018 11:18 AM)Jefferson Wrote:  

(11-07-2018 08:50 PM)Days of Broken Arrows Wrote:  

(09-27-2018 01:01 PM)puckerman Wrote:  It seems like every Superman eventually finds his kryptonite.

Funny enough, that's the sentiment of intro to "I Can't Get Started," an older song Frank commissioned to be re-written when he record it for one of his downer albums inspired by Ava, No One Cares.

The updated intro has the line "Superman turns out to be flash in the pan."

Sinatra discarded women left and right and bullied men just as easily (check the award-winning writer Gay Talese article "Frank Sinatra Has A Cold"). But he was not Alpha with Ava.

According to Kitty Kelly's bio and several other accounts, he not only threatened suicide if she left him, but pretended to kill himself by firing off a gun once when they were on the phone. This is not exactly setting the frame, or anything near Alpha.

She, for her part, was an early version of the "Sex In The City" type of woman and ended up destitute and alone by the late '80s. When she was dying of cancer, he paid her medical bills, even though he'd long since moved on and had remarried Barbara Marx.

A pretty good argument can also be made that Frank's last great album, She Shot Me Down, from 1981, is an ode to Ava. It's unrelentingly sad and wistful as it looks back on broken love affairs. It's an album that doesn't sound out of place next to Nick Drake's Bryter Layter or (believe it or not) Nico's most morose work, The End...

That is the puzzling thing isn't it, even with all the women chasing him, all his money, his fame, being the leader of the Rat Pack, at one time a senior chief at Warner Bros Records, and with all his documented boss demeanour in the recording studio, he could not maintain frame with Ava. He pursued her all his life. When they tried again as she hit 40 he tried to over-boss the situation with her and she decided to leave, but still pursued him all her life. Once when she was in hospital and Sinatra did not call, after marrying Barbara Marx, she expressed her disappointment and a press release by her sister about Sinatra not getting in touch was done. She was over 60 then and close to death.

After she died Sinatra sat on his bed crying for two days and his daughter Tina said his strong voice was only a whisper.

This cautionary tale of two human beings in love, but unable to live together, is one of the most fascinating stories I have ever come across. Why could Sinatra not make it happen with a woman who clearly loved him, it's a perplexing mystery.

Thanks for posting the great music.

Thanks for those stories. I hadn't heard the one about him crying for two days. Was that in a book?

The only explanation I can come up with is that Sinatra did with Ava what DiMaggio did with Monroe. They married two of the most famous women in the world and expected them to become subservient housewives.

I don't think any man could have pulled that off. As it stood, neither woman had kids or ever really settled down with any man long-term.

There are cases of female musicians giving up their careers for the domestic life. Patti Smith comes to mind. But movie stars are a different beast. Movies are visual, so there's an inherent narcissism there.

That's all I got. The plus side is that some of the greatest albums ever came from Frank's torment. Once he was over her, his music started to pale. Wonder if that press release you mentioned sparked one final bout of misery, which led to She Shot Me Down in 1981?

Post: #32

(10-25-2018 10:14 AM)Jefferson Wrote:  So getting back to Ava Gardner, the last years of the woman were basically the girls just wanna have fun years on steroids, the beautiful person turned into drunken slut, no man to keep her in check and just booze and sex, dancing and nights out. Well past her forties, ie past wall.

Tellingly she told Artie Shaw 'you know I like to be fucked rough but Frank, he makes love like a woman'. So while Sinatra was kinky and known to have asked girlfriends to do threesomes with prostitutes, he was not into rough sex, which Ava craved.

Sinatra was known to have a huge cock, his valet wrote that he had his clothes custom made to accommodate his largesse, and Ava Gardner famously remarked to Grace Kelly when they were filming Mogambo in Africa, after removing the loin cloth of an African 'Frank's is bigger'.

But that didn't help him, he didn't do Ava rough enough for her liking.

It's actually sad to see how Sinatra remained in love with Ava Gardner, constantly trying to rekindle things, while AG remarks to her ex-husband Artie Shaw that he makes love like a girl, and she fucks anyone she likes in an endless row of male consorts. Even Sinatra came to see this when he saw Ava drunk again and lamented his only love was a drunkard.

I am starting to wonder if love is indeed a mental illness as some believed in ancient times.

Oh my god, rough fucking Ava Gardner in her prime.

Post: #33

(11-08-2018 11:58 AM)Days of Broken Arrows Wrote:  Thanks for those stories. I hadn't heard the one about him crying for two days. Was that in a book?

The only explanation I can come up with is that Sinatra did with Ava what DiMaggio did with Monroe. They married two of the most famous women in the world and expected them to become subservient housewives.

I don't think any man could have pulled that off. As it stood, neither woman had kids or ever really settled down with any man long-term.

There are cases of female musicians giving up their careers for the domestic life. Patti Smith comes to mind. But movie stars are a different beast. Movies are visual, so there's an inherent narcissism there.

That's all I got. The plus side is that some of the greatest albums ever came from Frank's torment. Once he was over her, his music started to pale. Wonder if that press release you mentioned sparked one final bout of misery, which led to She Shot Me Down in 1981?

Yes, it was in the Lee Servers biography of Ava Gardner I think. The account about Sinatra sitting on his bed and crying and being able to only whisper after her death was by his daugther Tina, so it may be also be in her autobiography.

I think you're exactly right about what Sinatra tried to do with Ava, he did try to make her into a houswife, to get her to obey his commands. She was actually an excellent housewife, by all accounts a superb cook and actually loved to do ironing (Lee Servers again). However, after many years of the biggest names in the world of films and guys like Hughes, daredevil bullfighters like Dominguez, paying her endless attention it was understandable that Ava would be reluctant to take orders from Sinatra. And Sinatra did give her orders, like ordering her to go to events with Sam Giancana present whom she hated. One could almost argue Sinatra was too Alpha, his frame too strong, that he drove her away.

Of course Ava had two husbands who did not treat her right in her eyes before Sinatra, maybe that was a factor too.

Post: #34

(11-08-2018 12:00 PM)MrLemon Wrote:  Oh my god, rough fucking Ava Gardner in her prime.

She was the perfect woman, but her perfection made her totally spoiled, it ruined her. Tragic but mesmerizing as a life.

Post: #35

He cucked Woody Allen and that was a dick move.

Post: #36

(11-08-2018 02:44 PM)Jefferson Wrote:  

(11-08-2018 11:58 AM)Days of Broken Arrows Wrote:  Thanks for those stories. I hadn't heard the one about him crying for two days. Was that in a book?

The only explanation I can come up with is that Sinatra did with Ava what DiMaggio did with Monroe. They married two of the most famous women in the world and expected them to become subservient housewives.

I don't think any man could have pulled that off. As it stood, neither woman had kids or ever really settled down with any man long-term.

There are cases of female musicians giving up their careers for the domestic life. Patti Smith comes to mind. But movie stars are a different beast. Movies are visual, so there's an inherent narcissism there.

That's all I got. The plus side is that some of the greatest albums ever came from Frank's torment. Once he was over her, his music started to pale. Wonder if that press release you mentioned sparked one final bout of misery, which led to She Shot Me Down in 1981?

Yes, it was in the Lee Servers biography of Ava Gardner I think. The account about Sinatra sitting on his bed and crying and being able to only whisper after her death was by his daugther Tina, so it may be also be in her autobiography.

I think you're exactly right about what Sinatra tried to do with Ava, he did try to make her into a houswife, to get her to obey his commands. She was actually an excellent housewife, by all accounts a superb cook and actually loved to do ironing (Lee Servers again). However, after many years of the biggest names in the world of films and guys like Hughes, daredevil bullfighters like Dominguez, paying her endless attention it was understandable that Ava would be reluctant to take orders from Sinatra. And Sinatra did give her orders, like ordering her to go to events with Sam Giancana present whom she hated. One could almost argue Sinatra was too Alpha, his frame too strong, that he drove her away.

Of course Ava had two husbands who did not treat her right in her eyes before Sinatra, maybe that was a factor too.

This is interesting. You're coming at this from another perspective. I've read a lot about Sinatra and have almost all his work (all the Columbia stuff, all the Capitol stuff, half the Reprise stuff).

But the only things I know about Ava Gardner are through the Sinatra books. Never thought to read about her.

And, I never knew she'd been married twice before Frank. That, in and of itself, says a lot. The phrase "alpha widow" might apply here, depending on how she viewed one of those exes. Thanks for this info.

Being Alpha means knowing how to calibrate. Some women like men to be really dominant. Some can't stand it. It probably wasn't in Sinatra's makeup to be able to know when (or how) to chill out. Guess he left that to Dean Martin!

Post: #37

(11-08-2018 03:29 PM)Days of Broken Arrows Wrote:  This is interesting. You're coming at this from another perspective. I've read a lot about Sinatra and have almost all his work (all the Columbia stuff, all the Capitol stuff, half the Reprise stuff).

But the only things I know about Ava Gardner are through the Sinatra books. Never thought to read about her.

And, I never knew she'd been married twice before Frank. That, in and of itself, says a lot. The phrase "alpha widow" might apply here, depending on how she viewed one of those exes. Thanks for this info.

Being Alpha means knowing how to calibrate. Some women like men to be really dominant. Some can't stand it. It probably wasn't in Sinatra's makeup to be able to know when (or how) to chill out. Guess he left that to Dean Martin!

I'm glad I started this thread because that sentence 'Being Alpha means knowing how to calibrate' is worth the subscription alone. I think that's a lesson I will take away here, because I think that is exactly right, it is about getting what you WANT. It's not just about barking out orders. It's about people following you. Everyone can give orders. If Sinatra had been smart enough to adjust his position on Sam Giancana when Ava and he reunited maybe the outcome would have been completely different.

I read about Ava's aborted autobiography "The Secret Conversations" first, the one that was published after her death because she'd talked too openly about things. Sinatra it is rumoured paid her what she would have made 100,000 USD, so she would abort it and she did. But it came out after her death. However, it is sketchy and I wanted to know more about the Sinatra - Ava rel. So I read a big Siantra bio and the Ava bio by Lee Servers, probably the best one. Now got a book specifically about Sinatra and Ava. I just wanted to understand why these two, who had everything and loved each other, couldn't make it work.

Yes, Ava was press-ganged into marrying by Mickey Rooney who cheated on her, so she ended up with Artie Shaw. Arguably she loved him the most intensely, but not as long as Sinatra, but Shaw dumped her because she was too difficult.

But yes, Frank was not a chilled out kinda guy by all accounts, very serious and intense. Which is why he was terrible at joking around but Dean Martin was so good at it. He also divorced his long faithful wife, just like Sinatra, eventually. LTR's are not easy by all accounts. Not for anyone.

Thanks again for the great music, I'm look forward to listening to the first link after work tonight.

Post: #38

Jefferson

The answer youre looking for is "fear".

The human condition can be reduced to a perpetual battle : Fear vs Desire

Its been said that there are two types of fear.

Fear of real danger and fear of the ego.

Sinatra's behavior towards Ava was due to fear encroaching onto and otherwise monolithic ego that Sinatra undoubtedly had.

"The power in a relationship lies with whoever cares less"... Uncle Wayne (played by Michael Douglas in GHOSTS OF GIRLFRIENDS PAST 2009)

The movie was mildy entertaining but this scene is immensely accurate. I remember watching this and feeling the epiphany of hearing someone else verbally articulate many of the game principles I had learned on my own





Mind blown...truths confirmed


Sinatra's desire for Ava was probably initially no more any other attractive piece of ass. But the minute his ego (unconsciously) knew that she cared less than he did he became afraid to lose her, and relinquished the power in the relationship and never recovered

Lesson


The Litany Against Fear

"I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear.
I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.

The above recitation from the movie DUNE (1984) was adapted from a centuries old mantra.

Buddhists know that removing the ego is the best way to remove much of the self imposed fear of the ego is a key to happiness / enlightenment

THAT is why dread game works.

THAT is why its power is immutable

So...do you see the connection to your situation in the other thread ?

Post: #39

Papaya Tapper, I see it very clearly. The truth of your analysis is very plain. I just do not understand the mechanics of its implementation.

If it were so easy as to not respond a few days it would be easy. But that is not enough, I have done the no contact many times, for many days, more than two. A week once. She just cares less always.

Even now, we regained normality, but she again is telling me after a few exchanges she decided not to see me. Then messages me in the middle of the night to ask how my breakfast was. And when you think she is being docile again, she turns around and says I annoy her. Like I said, I have many times tried dread on her, but she knows very well how deeply I care, I made the mistake to show that. That is why she blew off my ultimatum, she knew I would not walk away.

I actually broke up with her once for real, it worked then, because it was real, she started pursuing me again. But as soon as I gave her a second chance it was back to her disprectful behaviour.

I can do the dread, the no contact, but something is going wrong in the inbetween everyday interactions. I wish I knew what it was.

The power of walking away, I will practice it more now. I realise it is all I have. But I think there has to be more to it, like you said the inter-personal dynamics, somehow to cement the effect of the dread. It seems to evaporate so quickly with this girl. She has all her life had no problem to hook high quality guys, in short periods of time through online, and though I bring more to the table than anyone else has, deep down she must think she could easily do it again, find someone.

This is why the Sinatra story was so interesting to me, it seemed to mirror my own life in a blown up way, I am battling with my own Ava at the moment.

The joke is, I actually have options. But for some reason this particular girl has me like in a vice grip of attraction. I don't trust her, I feel like in an LTR she would present many problems, the disrespect is through the roof, the moods have me doubting her mental health, and yet, yet, for some reason....she's the most attractive woman I've ever come across...

Post: #40

(11-09-2018 11:21 AM)Jefferson Wrote:  Papaya Tapper, I see it very clearly. The truth of your analysis is very plain. I just do not understand the mechanics of its implementation.

If it were so easy as to not respond a few days it would be easy. But that is not enough, I have done the no contact many times, for many days, more than two. A week once. She just cares less always.

Even now, we regained normality, but she again is telling me after a few exchanges she decided not to see me. Then messages me in the middle of the night to ask how my breakfast was. And when you think she is being docile again, she turns around and says I annoy her. Like I said, I have many times tried dread on her, but she knows very well how deeply I care, I made the mistake to show that. That is why she blew off my ultimatum, she knew I would not walk away.

I actually broke up with her once for real, it worked then, because it was real, she started pursuing me again. But as soon as I gave her a second chance it was back to her disprectful behaviour.

I can do the dread, the no contact, but something is going wrong in the inbetween everyday interactions. I wish I knew what it was.

The power of walking away, I will practice it more now. I realise it is all I have. But I think there has to be more to it, like you said the inter-personal dynamics, somehow to cement the effect of the dread. It seems to evaporate so quickly with this girl. She has all her life had no problem to hook high quality guys, in short periods of time through online, and though I bring more to the table than anyone else has, deep down she must think she could easily do it again, find someone.

This is why the Sinatra story was so interesting to me, it seemed to mirror my own life in a blown up way, I am battling with my own Ava at the moment.

Yes I surmised that trying to recoup control of this relationship via dread was a sailed ship. It just took a few more posts for me to glean the fuller picture

I still stand by my previous advice. Fuck her (literally) when you can. Dont care when you cant (easier said than done...I know)

But I'll add this.

Replace her. You "bring more to the table" then find a girl who's just as attractive but has brings more to your table . In the case of HPD less is more. Yes they are out there

Ill be 47 this month. My GF of the last 2 1/2 year is 25 yo, sweet, feminine, former Miss EE Country runner up, hard 9 (and I'm a picky motherfucker when it comes to LTRs).

I've dragged my dick through miles of vagina over the years. During those same years. Ive built and sold 3 companies, accumulated a lot of assets, and created a lifestyle that enables me to spend about 6 months a year traveling and staying in luxury accommodations. I bring a lot to the table too

Im not trying to be boastful but rather impress upon you that you have options. You just have to act on them

Dread only truly works when you truly dont care and

"Nothing gets you over the last one like the next one"- Anonymous

Especially if she (or they) is / are younger and hotter -PapayaTapper

Post: #41

Yes, I think I have made too many mistakes with that girl.

So much she's actually losing respect. There may be no other way but to cut my losses and to replace her.

Lesson learned. Never show you care, even if you do. If she knows you truly care, she'll never fear you'll truly walk away.

Just like Ava always knew she had Frank in her backpocket. And so it proved to be, all her life she would call on him. Get him to pay US$50,000 medical expenses, for the privelege of her picking up the phone when he called.

I don't want to be that guy.

Thanks, PT. I actually have a EE girl I could go back to, sweet, pretty, but she's 38, and the crazy one is just so much more fun. I think I like the drama.

Post: #42

(09-28-2018 09:58 AM)kuqezi Wrote:  He was an ok singer that a couple of mafia bosses liked and thus helped him...he leveraged this huge time. Just that! Plenty of celebrities nowadays like him. Alpha my ass! End of story...

This gives me a great idea for a thread. Name a man that practically anyone would consider an alpha, then let everybody else point out how he's really a beta!

Arnold? Pointy elbows; total beta

James Bond? Looks different from one movie to another; total beta

Trump? No reason needed. Obvious beta

Beiber? Actually, he's as cool and alpha as Sinatra!

Post: #43

(10-22-2018 10:11 AM)Jefferson Wrote:  So continuing the research on the Sinatra Ava story with Lee Server's bio on Ava Gardner some more details of this fell into place.

Turns out that Ava and Frank were constantly jealous of each other because they had to be apart all the time, because of their careers.

So effectively they had a long distance relationship for some time. And because both constantly thought the other was cheating on them this led to great friction.

Ava was the first to cheat during filming of a movie in Spain. After that Frank obviously became ever more jealous. However, Ava was the same way, Frank was notorious for bedding women after all. Then one day, Frank actually called Ava while in bed with another woman and told her 'Since I'm always accused of cheating I may as well reap the benefits and do it'. That was the end for Ava, who subsequently filed for divorce.

The amazing thing was that after Ava had many many affairs with countless men, for years after that, when Ava was approaching 40, Frank and her decided to try one more time. Neither then cared anymore that the other had plenty of affairs. It failed because Frank wanted to impose his frame, and forced Ava to go to a meeting with a notorious mobster. Ava hated gangsters. They had a huge argument and Ava simply left yet again.

So what does one make of this? When Sinatra was financially in trouble with his career going badly and he was extremely jelaous Ava lost attraction, she cheated on him. In turn Sinatra cheated as well and rubbed it in Ava's face, which caused her to divorce. Then Sinatra's fortunes revived he became an even bigger star and fabulously rich. But it still was not enough. Ava still wanted to impose her frame on his, even though Sinatra held frame and forced her to meet with Sam Giacana, the mobster she hated.

So how does hypergamy fit this narrative? Ava Gardner could have been with a fabulously wealthy Sinatra. But instead decided not to, after they tried again, because she had a big argument with Sinatra about mobsters. Hypergamy does not seem to fit this narrative. Ava rather appeared to drift away because Sinatra insisted she come to dinners with gangsters and they had an argument about it.

Equally Ava Gardner could have married the richest man in the world, Howard Hughes, but opted not to. Instead she bedded obscure Italians, secretaries, black musicians, AFTER she hit the wall.

Her life seems to exemplify how a woman will go wrong without the direction of a male. Her drunk promiscuity was off the charts. She was banned from restaurants and hotels.

But if that male tries to impose that direction too harshly, like Sinatra did when he forced her to meet the mobster Sam Giacana, that too did not work. Despite now being fabulously wealth, having lots of women after him and showing his love for Ava Gardner many times over, one harsh argument and she walked away.

Neither hypergamy nor frame narratives seem to fit this story neatly.

I've seen it said that a woman would rather be the fucktoy of a high value man than the dutiful wife of a beta. However, it sounds like Ava preferred being a fucktoy to being married even to a superstar or the richest man in the world.

Post: #44

Yes she did. She basically rode the carousel until she was 40. Drink, sex and parties.

Then tried to get back with Sinatra. Who then told her what to do, who to see, and for a short time Ava would do it, until it became too much to bear and she left again. For a life of solitude, Lupus, hysterectomy, Stroke, loneliness and death.

In a way Sinatra dodged a bullet.

Post: #45

(11-09-2018 01:59 PM)Jefferson Wrote:  Yes, I think I have made too many mistakes with that girl.

So much she's actually losing respect. There may be no other way but to cut my losses and to replace her.

Lesson learned. Never show you care, even if you do. If she knows you truly care, she'll never fear you'll truly walk away.

Just like Ava always knew she had Frank in her backpocket. And so it proved to be, all her life she would call on him. Get him to pay US$50,000 medical expenses, for the privelege of her picking up the phone when he called.

I don't want to be that guy.

Thanks, PT. I actually have a EE girl I could go back to, sweet, pretty, but she's 38, and the crazy one is just so much more fun. I think I like the drama.

"He who lies with dogs wakes up with fleas" - Confucius

"He who go to bed with itchy butt wake up with smelly fingers" - Papa PT

Ahh....Well at least your eyes are open now, (if they werent already). You'll have no else to blame, for what you feel the next time she twitches the strings and makes her puppet dance. Not even her...she's just doing what she wants and what you let her do

"Girl game recognized"-RVF community



Pass this along to her will ya?

Post: #46

I will, PT. Thanks for everything.

I shan't lose much anyway. What did Artie Shaw say, "These love goddesses are not what they seem, especially if you're married to one. They all think they want a traditional marriage, but they aren't married for that sort of thing. Somebody's got to get the coffee in the morning, and an Ava Gardner is not going to do that. So you get up and get it, and then you find you're doing everything".

For long term she's a disaster. I've tried for three years, one year living together. I'd end up killing her, or she me.

Post: #47

(09-27-2018 09:55 AM)Jefferson Wrote:  Sinatra was known as the ultimate Alpha man during his life time. He reputedly bedded thousands of women. His presence was said to electrify any room, not because of any celebrity status but because you never knew what we would do. He did not take nonsense from anyone and was known for it. When a current lover complained that he was about to meet Ava Gardner he told her calmly to pack her things and leave. He maintained frame almost always. Almost. Because this ultimate Alpha of Alpha men became a total mess before one woman: Ava Gardner. Sinatra left his family and three children to marry Ava Gardner. However she could take him or leave him, and she left him. Sinatra tried suicide. He lost his frame time and time again before Ava Gardner. With every other woman he was in in command. Not with Ava Gardner. What can we learn from this? No matter how Alpha you are, there is always a woman out there who can make you turn into a heap of Beta?

I don't think Sinatra was a red pilled man per say, he had women throwing themselves at him on every chance. He did have an abundance mentality because he could get pussy anytime he wanted that. I honestly think he was a high-level functioning beta. Which most male hollywood celebs are.

Post: #48

Well, if you'd read a bit about him you'd revise that opinion. Across the board the testimonials say he was hard as nails, difficult to deal with, 'came out slugging', 'knew what he wanted', he definitely was not beta most of the time. He would go after what he wanted, knew what he wanted, and did not compromise as a rule.

In fact his overbearing manner may have been a factor in why he and Ava could not make it work, he expected Ava to subordinate herself and her career to his wishes. Though in reality a large number of factors explain why, despite being deeply in love, he and Ava did not work. She would say of herself 'I'm good looking but morally I stink', and she was right, she was a highly immoral woman and cheated on Sinatra early on in the marriage with Mario Cabre. She cared less about Sinatra than he did about her, and yes, I think PT is right, Sinatra feared losing her, he was in a bad place in his career at the time, both were egomaniacs, jealous and headstrong.

Yes, he lived in a pussy abundance mentality, but it never prevented him from turning into a complete Beta at times when he was around Ava Gardner.

It raises very interesting questions about hypergamy as well, this tale of Sinatra and Ava, because indeed Ava saw women throwing themselves at Sinatra, but it did not matter, she still left him. Neither Sinatra's money nor Howard Hughes money played a part in Ava's decision, though both were significantly richer than her. Even when she needed money, later in life, she did not turn to a Beta for bucks though she could have done so.

I'd like to see Rollo Tomassi explain his theories against the backdrop of Ava Gardner.

Post: #49

Anyway, so currently reading the memoirs of Ava Gardner's employee Rene. She relates a conversation where Ava Gardner said she could have been with Sinatra, if she had accepted he would sleep with other women. She seems to imply that it was Sinatra's well known philandering that led to the break up.

However, we know that Ava Gardner herself cheated on Sinatra with Mario Cabre at the start of the marriage.

It's unclear if Sinatra cheated first.

However, Rene does relate a story whereby Ava Gardner asked Sinatra to return USD 19,000 which Ava had ponied up for Frank to save his house in Palm Springs, before they were divorced.

Sinatra, apparently did not take this kindly and called her up saying he had the 19,000 why doesn't she come pick it up. When Ava came Frank threw the dollar bills in the air so she had to pick up the money off the floor.

This episode was then followed by Sinatra phoning Gardner saying he was in bed with another woman. So it would appear that even before this Frank and Ava were in deep trouble, after Ava had cheated on Frank, Ava had to give Frank money to tide him over to save his house in Palm Springs.

It is likely however that Sinatra cheated on Ava before she comitted adultery with Mario Cabre.

Becoming clearer why these two failed.