Post: #1

Sinatra was known as the ultimate Alpha man during his life time. He reputedly bedded thousands of women. His presence was said to electrify any room, not because of any celebrity status but because you never knew what we would do. He did not take nonsense from anyone and was known for it. When a current lover complained that he was about to meet Ava Gardner he told her calmly to pack her things and leave. He maintained frame almost always. Almost. Because this ultimate Alpha of Alpha men became a total mess before one woman: Ava Gardner. Sinatra left his family and three children to marry Ava Gardner. However she could take him or leave him, and she left him. Sinatra tried suicide. He lost his frame time and time again before Ava Gardner. With every other woman he was in in command. Not with Ava Gardner. What can we learn from this? No matter how Alpha you are, there is always a woman out there who can make you turn into a heap of Beta?

Post: #2

is this promoting MGTOW.

Post: #3

Err, no. Sinatra bedded thousands of women, MGTOW is the last thing you could connect him with.

I am interested in why someone who is clearly an Alpha male is nevertheless unable to maintain frame around one particular woman, when he maintains frame before any other woman.

Post: #4

It's that thing they call "love" and we call "oneitis".

Post: #5

That has got to be the right answer. He caught feels before the perfect ten. But Sinatra was always able to maintain his frame otherwise, does this mean that if you fall in love you are unable to maintain frame in the long term? You're inevitably going to lose frame? Because boy did Sinatra lose it around Ava Gardner.

Is there no way to maintain frame if you are in love with a girl?

Post: #6

Bedding thousands of woman does not make you an alpha.

Post: #7

Nobody said that was the reason Sinatra was Alpha. Sinatra was more than a man who bedded thousands of women. He was Alpha because he took no shit, he was not afraid of physical confrontation, even with guys much larger than himself not just photographers. He dominated always, in the recording studio, at the dinner table, he was the head of the Rat Pack, the Chairman of the board. He was very much known as an intimidating, volatile, dominant male, and yes he bedded thousands of women. But his personality was about far more than that.

He always did it 'His Way'.

There's a reason Roosh declared My Way the most masculine song. Sinatra was the ultimate Alpha male by all accounts. Except with Ava Gardner.

Post: #8

(09-27-2018 11:29 AM)Jefferson Wrote:  Nobody said that was the reason Sinatra was Alpha. Sinatra was more than a man who bedded thousands of women. He was Alpha because he took no shit, he was not afraid of physical confrontation, even with guys much larger than himself not just photographers.

So does Justin Bieber. It's easy to be a tough guy when you have security around you. Read the stories about Frank hiding out in a church basement because the mob was mad about something. Read about him nearly shitting himself meeting Lansky at a club.

I think you're falling for the myth. The dude was talented, made a lot of money, banged plenty of broads but he wasn't a tough guy. He was a mob fanboy and people were scared of him because he was mobbed up.

Post: #9

True, Sinatra also leveraged his tough guy Jilly in confrontations, however, there is an account of how Sinatra went to the Sands Casino and sought out the Manager, Carl Cohen, a very tall mafia man known to be a fighter to start a fight. Granted Cohen punched him in the mouth, but clearly Sinatra did NOT first ask his security, Jilly, to attack Cohen. Sinatra was the one who was in the fight. He tried to get Jilly to attack Cohen afterwards, but even Jilly passed given Cohen's reputation as a mob guy. But this says a lot about Sinatra essentially not being afraid of confrontation.

And it is smart to hide when you think the mob is after you, in those days the mob did kill people.

I'm not falling for any myth, I am reading the most detailed biography on Sinatra ever written. He was of course a singer, a fan of the mob, true, who played on his mob connections, but he was a pretty tough guy as well. He was in jail, he had multiple fights with different people, but it's more than that. He was known to always want to be in command in any social situation, in recording studios, in meet ups with male friends, he was the leader of the Rat Pack. The Chairman of the Board. Justin Bieber does not command in the same way, no Rat Pack for him, ie guys of equal stature who defer to him.

Sinatra was an Alpha male, there is no doubt about it.

Post: #10

It seems like every Superman eventually finds his kryptonite.

Post: #11

That's exactly what I was thinking.

It's just you'd think there would be a way to be in love and maintain frame. But maybe it's just not possible. If the Chairman of the board, who left his wife and three kids, punched anyone in the mouth he felt like, became president of Warner Bros Records, spent time with presidents and tough guys alike, could not do it, it does make you wonder.

Post: #12

Get off his dick, nut hugging like a motherfucker here.

He was a man. A man with flaws. Alpha, sure. But c'mon.

Post: #13

Sure he had flaws. Just trying to learn some game lessons. If he couldn't maintain frame when being in love, it's an interesting fact.

That's the whole point, to look at Sinatra's flaw, how he could not maintain frame around one woman because he was in love. It's not an adulation thread.

Post: #14

He was an ok singer that a couple of mafia bosses liked and thus helped him...he leveraged this huge time. Just that! Plenty of celebrities nowadays like him. Alpha my ass! End of story...

Post: #15

He was an ok singer?

Sinatra changed the world. He was rock and roll before there was rock and roll, he was the first to bring 30,000 screaming women onto Times Square, he was the first to create his own record label, showing artists of today how to gain autonomy. He was the first pop star, he made being a pop star possible in the first place, before him singers like Crosby, Ella Fitzgerald were just performers. Sinatra defined the American songbook, he single-handedly led a revival of swing in the sixties.

Sinatra put his stamp on the world. He defined pop music, he made it into what it is today. This is the very definition of a dominating Alpha male, who left his mark on the world. Let alone that he always wanted to call the shots, was the leader of the pack. Warner Bros wanted to sign him so much they had to sign half their company away to him and make him an executive Director.

There are NO celebrities like him nowadays, he created the modern American pop stardom phenomenon. He put his stamp on the world.

An OK singer? He was the original Alpha male. Which precisely makes his failure around Ava Gardner so interesting. That he couldn't maintain frame around this one woman is the greatest failure of his life. And the only interesting thing is how this failure came about, give his obvious Alpha male status.

Post: #16

(09-28-2018 11:13 AM)Jefferson Wrote:  He was an ok singer?

Sinatra changed the world. He was rock and roll before there was rock and roll, he was the first to bring 30,000 screaming women onto Times Square, he was the first to create his own record label, showing artists of today how to gain autonomy. He was the first pop star, he made being a pop star possible in the first place, before him singers like Crosby, Ella Fitzgerald were just performers. Sinatra defined the American songbook, he single-handedly led a revival of swing in the sixties.

Sinatra put his stamp on the world. He defined pop music, he made it into what it is today. This is the very definition of a dominating Alpha male, who left his mark on the world. Let alone that he always wanted to call the shots, was the leader of the pack. Warner Bros wanted to sign him so much they had to sign half their company away to him and make him an executive Director.

There are NO celebrities like him nowadays, he created the modern American pop stardom phenomenon. He put his stamp on the world.

An OK singer? He was the original Alpha male. Which precisely makes his failure around Ava Gardner so interesting. That he couldn't maintain frame around this one woman is the greatest failure of his life. And the only interesting thing is how this failure came about, give his obvious Alpha male status.

I think you should work on your oneitis for Sinatra and maybe maybe reduce this crush on him
Cheers!

Post: #17

I think you should stop posting bullshit.

Thanks.

Post: #18

Ava Gardner also crushed Howard Hughes. A lot of successful alpha/famous men get used to having women swoon. When a truly powerfully feminine, unbelievably gorgeous and sexual woman ...and Gardner was that...comes along, these alpha men just kind of lose it. She played her game well to the end. Gotta give her due credit.

Post: #19

Gardner certainly was all those things, in fact whenever a guy asks what a perfect 10 looks like he should just be pointed at a picture of Ava Gardner. She was essentially flawless, physically anyway.

(09-28-2018 01:26 PM)MrLemon Wrote:  When a truly powerfully feminine, unbelievably gorgeous and sexual woman ...and Gardner was that...comes along, these alpha men just kind of lose it. She played her game well to the end. Gotta give her due credit.

One can understand that Sinatra caught feels for Ava, being a perfect ten, direct and exciting, what I don't understand is why this act of falling in love made Sinatra completely lose his dominance. That's what I find so interesting. I wonder if there is a way to be in love with a woman and still retain frame the way you do normally.

Ava saw herself as a woman that could do anything with any man, she eventually got movie star money, fame and it seems she thought she was to good for Sinatra at one point.

The tragic thing is they both throughout their entire lives, even after their divorce, kept meeting, having sex and trying to reconcile. But they could not. Whenever it seemed that a reconciliation was possible Gardner or Sinatra would piss each other off with their egocentric behavior. Each one said of the other they were the love of their life, that was clear, but they just could not live with each other.

Post: #20

Well you don't marry your best sex. You marry the woman who is a 6 or a 7 and will be a good mother to your children.

Post: #21

Yes, Sinatra did that, Nancy Senior. But then he was crazy in love with Gardner and left them.

Post: #22

So continuing the research on the Sinatra Ava story with Lee Server's bio on Ava Gardner some more details of this fell into place.

Turns out that Ava and Frank were constantly jealous of each other because they had to be apart all the time, because of their careers.

So effectively they had a long distance relationship for some time. And because both constantly thought the other was cheating on them this led to great friction.

Ava was the first to cheat during filming of a movie in Spain. After that Frank obviously became ever more jealous. However, Ava was the same way, Frank was notorious for bedding women after all. Then one day, Frank actually called Ava while in bed with another woman and told her 'Since I'm always accused of cheating I may as well reap the benefits and do it'. That was the end for Ava, who subsequently filed for divorce.

The amazing thing was that after Ava had many many affairs with countless men, for years after that, when Ava was approaching 40, Frank and her decided to try one more time. Neither then cared anymore that the other had plenty of affairs. It failed because Frank wanted to impose his frame, and forced Ava to go to a meeting with a notorious mobster. Ava hated gangsters. They had a huge argument and Ava simply left yet again.

So what does one make of this? When Sinatra was financially in trouble with his career going badly and he was extremely jelaous Ava lost attraction, she cheated on him. In turn Sinatra cheated as well and rubbed it in Ava's face, which caused her to divorce. Then Sinatra's fortunes revived he became an even bigger star and fabulously rich. But it still was not enough. Ava still wanted to impose her frame on his, even though Sinatra held frame and forced her to meet with Sam Giacana, the mobster she hated.

So how does hypergamy fit this narrative? Ava Gardner could have been with a fabulously wealthy Sinatra. But instead decided not to, after they tried again, because she had a big argument with Sinatra about mobsters. Hypergamy does not seem to fit this narrative. Ava rather appeared to drift away because Sinatra insisted she come to dinners with gangsters and they had an argument about it.

Equally Ava Gardner could have married the richest man in the world, Howard Hughes, but opted not to. Instead she bedded obscure Italians, secretaries, black musicians, AFTER she hit the wall.

Her life seems to exemplify how a woman will go wrong without the direction of a male. Her drunk promiscuity was off the charts. She was banned from restaurants and hotels.

But if that male tries to impose that direction too harshly, like Sinatra did when he forced her to meet the mobster Sam Giacana, that too did not work. Despite now being fabulously wealth, having lots of women after him and showing his love for Ava Gardner many times over, one harsh argument and she walked away.

Neither hypergamy nor frame narratives seem to fit this story neatly.

Post: #23

Sinatra was far from "alpha" in the rarefied atmosphere of his actual social circle. He was the mob's bitch, and they would regularly insult him to his face. That may have had something to do with it.

Take note of what she said about Onassis, who is probably the most alpha of alphas the 20th century produced.

"She remembers Onassis as ‘a primitive with a yacht…For some ladies that’s an irresistible combination’ (p. 12) but ‘If he hadn’t had a dollar he could have snapped a lady’s garter anytime he liked’.

https://notesonfilm1.com/tag/aristotle-onassis/

In other words, Ari O was a thug with lots of money, but even without money, he could have gotten women.

I read a story about his seduction of her on his yacht, the Christina. The bar stools were made of whale foreskin. He looked at her, and with a shit eating grin, said, "you know, your sitting on the world's biggest penis" . That's Ari O's style..

Post: #24

If you read the Lee Server bio of Ava Gardner there is the full story of how Ava met Onassis. Grace Kelly wanted to set Ava up with Ari. Grace told her apparently he likes to whip his women before having sex with him. After meeting Onassis, who was already old and not the kind of attractive man she was used to, Ava told Grace Kelly "Even with a good whipping I will not change my mind and sleep with Onassis". He was not her cup of tea at all.

http://jessinayellowdress.com/post/35734...va-gardner

Sinatra was very much an alpha male most of the time, leader of the Rat Pack, notorious not to take shit from anyone. Of course he was more circumspect with the mob, sensibly so because they could kill you. They almost did, Sam Giancana almost put out a contract on Sinatra but decided against it. When Sinatra's son was kidnapped the mob offered to investigate, but Sinatra declined. Though he knew that would offend them. He wanted the police to handle it. He famously went to fight a notorious mobster and got two teeth punched out.
Sinatra obviously pissed them off, he was never anyone's 'bitch'. Except for Ava. He was beta with Ava, because of his deep feelings for her.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article...other.html

All men had that experience though, except Artie Shaw. I read how Ava actually kindnapped the owner of Tour d' Argent, after he ended it with her.

Ava always got her way with men, except Artie Shaw. He ended it with her. He was the only one.

Post: #25

(10-22-2018 10:41 AM)Atticus Wrote:  Sinatra was far from "alpha" in the rarefied atmosphere of his actual social circle. He was the mob's bitch, and they would regularly insult him to his face. That may have had something to do with it.

Take note of what she said about Onassis, who is probably the most alpha of alphas the 20th century produced.

"She remembers Onassis as ‘a primitive with a yacht…For some ladies that’s an irresistible combination’ (p. 12) but ‘If he hadn’t had a dollar he could have snapped a lady’s garter anytime he liked’.

https://notesonfilm1.com/tag/aristotle-onassis/

In other words, Ari O was a thug with lots of money, but even without money, he could have gotten women.

I read a story about his seduction of her on his yacht, the Christina. The bar stools were made of whale foreskin. He looked at her, and with a shit eating grin, said, "you know, your sitting on the world's biggest penis" . That's Ari O's style..

I've never read of a guy with a more whitewashed history than Aristotle Onassis. Dropped offed broke in a foreign country, gets a job as a telephone operator, and then is suddenly a gazillionaire. The tobacco trade where he was alleged to have his fortune turned out be be a losing proposition under further investigation. What the hell did the guy REALLY do to become what he was.