Post: #1

I'm sure some are aware of the brutal murder of a 15 year old in the Bronx, where he was stabbed to death by a pack of thugs with machetes. For those that do not know here is a link to the actual video:

https://nypost.com/2018/06/26/innocent-b...ng-attack/

This incident has all sorts of issues, the stabbing was caused by the 15 year old uploading a sex tape of him and a teen girl to Facebook, teen girl gets her brother and his crew to take revenge.

But the fallout has now take a turn, as the City Council (and many social media users) are now condemning the Bodega owner from refusing to hide or protect the boy from his machete wielding attackers.

Quote:A trio of City Council members says the deli owner who didn’t intervene when gangbangers dragged an innocent teen from his deli and slaughtered him should have his store shuttered.

“An owner who stands idly by while a 15-year-old is dragged out of his store and murdered in cold blood with a machete is no longer worthy of doing business in NYC,” reads a letter council members Ritchie Torres, Vanessa Gibson and Rafael Salamanca sent to the Department of Consumer Affairs Commissioner Lorelai Salas on Monday demanding the agency yank the deli’s business license.

Newly released surveillance video shows innocent Lesandro Guzman-Feliz trying desperately to hide in the Zesarina Grocery Store on East 183rd Street near Bathgate Avenue before his attackers drag him out by his hood.

Another video shows the sliced-up teen run into the deli after the attack, but a worker motions toward the door and the teen can be seen leaving moments later.

“While it may be unfair to expect a business owner, untrained in law enforcement, to perform heroics in the midst of savage gang violence, the failure to do something as basic as calling 911 is morally unconscionable,” the council members’ letter states.

Torres, who represents the district where the killing took place, spoke directly with NYPD, who told him the deli owner did not call 911, a rep for the councilman said.

The group sent a similar letter to the State Liquor Authority, asking it to pull the grocery’s license to sell booze.

The letter comes after tens of thousands of people signed a petition online demanding the deli be closed. The petition had more than 121,800 signatures — 42,406 of which originated in New York — as of Tuesday afternoon.

The deli owner could not be reached for comment, and DCA did not immediately respond.

I'm not sure whether or not the Bodega owner is to blame here, and I'm not sure if I agree with the City Council saying he "doesn't have the right to do business in New York" because he was most likely scared and didn't want to get killed or hurt. And what they're saying essentially means any business owner who doesn't help a victim of an ongoing violent crime can have their business privileges revoked by the City. That doesn't seem right to me.

But if you were the Bodega owner would you have done the same thing, turn the boy away and left him to his fate?
Or would you have protected the kid or confronted the attackers, possibly putting your life at risk for some kid you don't know?

I don't think there was a moral duty or responsibility to help this kid, but I don't know what I would have done in this situation.

Post: #2

Third-world people with third-world mentalities create third-world problems.

Whodathunkit?

Post: #3

He was an innocent bystander. How can a bystander be guilty? Have you ever heard of a guilty bystander?

No, because you cannot be a bystander and be guilty. Bystanders are by definition, innocent. That is the nature of standing.

For more expect legal opinion, watch this:

Post: #4

Let's just make it even harder for legitimate business owners to operate in die-verse neighborhoods, that'll really help uplift those communities. If the kid had been stabbed outside a shitty nightclub (and had been 21) no one would be saying shut the place down.

I mean, was he supposed to waste eight fuckin aprons on that guy?:

Post: #5

(06-26-2018 10:31 PM)Thot Leader Wrote:  Let's just make it even harder for legitimate business owners to operate in die-verse neighborhoods, that'll really help uplift those communities. If the kid had been stabbed outside a shitty nightclub (and had been 21) no one would be saying shut the place down.

You obviously didn't read the article that OP posted.

The key fact in this situation is that the shop owner did not bother to call 911 even when it would have been safe to do so.

Post: #6

(06-26-2018 10:39 PM)Suits Wrote:  

(06-26-2018 10:31 PM)Thot Leader Wrote:  Let's just make it even harder for legitimate business owners to operate in die-verse neighborhoods, that'll really help uplift those communities. If the kid had been stabbed outside a shitty nightclub (and had been 21) no one would be saying shut the place down.

You obviously didn't read the article that OP posted.

The key fact in this situation is that the shop owner did not bother to call 911 even when it would have been safe to do so.

Actually

Quote:City Councilman Ritchie Torres (D-15) wants the city to shut the deli down for good, claiming its owner turned a blind eye.

“I specifically asked the NYPD whether he called 911, and the NYPD said no,” said Torres.

The department’s Chief Dermot Shea refuted Torres’ claim on Tuesday.

“There were calls from the bodega’s owner, or bodega workers, in this particular incident to send help” said Shea.

http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2018/06/26/b...cts-court/

Post: #7

(06-26-2018 10:31 PM)Thot Leader Wrote:  Let's just make it even harder for legitimate business owners to operate in die-verse neighborhoods, that'll really help uplift those communities. If the kid had been stabbed outside a shitty nightclub (and had been 21) no one would be saying shut the place down.

I mean, was he supposed to waste eight fuckin aprons on that guy?:

The way you write this implies that the kid was somehow guilty or brought this upon himself.

For one, this 15-year old kid wasn't a gang member. Furthermore, according to the most recent update that I read, he wasn't even the one in the sex tape. He did nothing wrong and got fucking stabbed to death by a pack of gang members who thought he was somebody else. That's one shitty way to die.

As Dodgy says, it is a moral dilemma. The bodega owner is not guilty in a legal sense, nobody would suggest that. But is he "guilty" in a moral sense? I can see it both ways. On one hand, it wouldn't be difficult to protect him, just have him stay behind the counter (where he was), call the cops, and then tell the thugs that you've called 911 and to fuck off. On the other hand, fighting a gang can have severe repercussions in an area like that, and he obviously had no clue whether the kid was innocent or running away from committing murder himself.

It's a really unfortunate and complicated situation and while I like to think that I would act differently if I were in the owner's shoes, I can't say with certainty. Nobody can unless they've been there.

Post: #8

(06-26-2018 10:54 PM)RDF Wrote:  Nobody can unless they've been there.

Hells yes! I say that all the time about my time serving over seas. STFU unless you have been there. Everyone thinks they are tough shit, especially modern day keyboard warriors, but know one really knows if they are a hero, or if they will shit their pants until the bullets or machete's are flying.

Everyone hopes they will do exactly the right thing, but until the chips are down no one knows. Some geeks turn into heros, some big jockey brutes piss themselves. That's humanity.

Post: #9

I'm with RDF here. Usually, I don't comment on these matters, but you're definitely writing as if the kid did this to himself. And yes before some of you jump in, 15 years old is still a kid to me. This young boy never got arrested, no known gang affiliations, was a proud member of NYPD Explorers, a program for high school students aspiring to be police officers. It was a case of mistaken identity.

The reason why it's getting so much press is unlike other gang crimes/murders, this was a 15-year-old good kid by all accounts, who wanted to join the police force, getting brutally murdered at the local corner store near his house by adult-aged m̶e̶n̶ savages.

To answer your question, I do not blame the bodega owner for not willing to directly intervene in the situation. Just like if I were to get into a physical altercation with a group of guys and my friends were too afraid to help, I wouldn't shame them for not helping, I would just never hang around said friends again. It's my right to dictate what sort of people I want in my life. Just like it's the people's right within that community to not want to do business at this bodega again.

-CD

Post: #10

(06-26-2018 09:30 PM)Dodgy Wrote:  But if you were the Bodega owner would you have done the same thing, turn the boy away and left him to his fate?
Or would you have protected the kid or confronted the attackers, possibly putting your life at risk for some kid you don't know?

Bodega owners are by and large a weasely bunch, but there's too many unknowns here.

If you were an owner where this happened did an employee call 911, or did you watch multiple bystanders call 911? If so, is it necessary for you to duplicate it?

Was a gang running a protection racket and threatening you in the past?

Was the Bodega owner verified to be present at the time? Or is it political posturing by a councilman?

Furthermore, what's the right thing to do when it happens. If you're working a deli and 5 gangbangers come in to jump someone is it appropriate to intervene? In hindsight we know the kid was innocent. But as it's occurring it's reasonable to expect the kid was also a gangbanger, not a case of mistaken identity. It's also reasonable to fear for your own safety and to run like hell to avoid getting caught in the crossfire.

As I mentioned above Bodega owners are oftentimes a wretched bunch but there's too many unanswered questions to outright accuse him, even if I myself am predisposed to.

Let's say you were working the counter and this happened and you grabbed a shotgun and started shooting. You got them all but you accidentally hit the kid too. You're now wanted by not just the gangbangers for off'ing their own, but you're going to be sued by the kid's family. From a game theory perspective, I think it's clear the best course of action when five gangbangers with machetes attack someone is to run like the wind. Not that I think a bodego owner processed this decision making tree, but that's how I would have it if were me

Post: #11

this is the most utterly ridiculous "moral conundrum" I've seen entertained arguably in my entire life.

a pack of indisputably evil gang members pull a completely innocent 15 year old out of a bodega in a tragic case of mistaken identity and hack him to death with machetes, and we are debating.....

whether the bodega owner bears responsibility?

what a fundamentally preposterous case of political grandstanding. the city councilmen are appealing to the liquor control board to have the owner's license revoked? for what? what does that solve? were that they expended a fraction of this mental energy on a pack of unrepentant brutal murderers.

Post: #12

[/quote]

Furthermore, what's the right thing to do when it happens. If you're working a deli and 5 gangbangers come in to jump someone is it appropriate to intervene? In hindsight we know the kid was innocent. But as it's occurring it's reasonable to expect the kid was also a gangbanger, not a case of mistaken identity. It's also reasonable to fear for your own safety and to run like hell to avoid getting caught in the crossfire.

As I mentioned above Bodega owners are oftentimes a wretched bunch but there's too many unanswered questions to outright accuse him, even if I myself am predisposed to.

Let's say you were working the counter and this happened and you grabbed a shotgun and started shooting. You got them all but you accidentally hit the kid too. You're now wanted by not just the gangbangers for off'ing their own, but you're going to be sued by the kid's family. From a game theory perspective, I think it's clear the best course of action when five gangbangers with machetes attack someone is to run like the wind. Not that I think a bodego owner processed this decision making tree, but that's how I would have it if were me
[/quote]

Yeah I was thinking the owner was hesitant to call 911 because he was doing something illegal, or there was something going on where he didn't want the cops involved. And we know the situation with the benefit of hindsight, but I don't think the owner knew what the situation was as it was unfolding and just went into flight or panic mode and just didn't want to be involved. That's why I think it's crazy to take away his business.
Plus, I don't think calling 911 would have saved the kid. When I lived in NYC, the cops weren't known for their responsiveness. So if he called 911 and waited for 10 minutes after calling to the time the cops actually show up that would have been more than enough time to for those thugs to finish killing that boy.

(06-26-2018 11:22 PM)coverdoc Wrote:  The reason why it's getting so much press is unlike other gang crimes/murders, this was a 15-year-old good kid by all accounts, who wanted to join the police force, getting brutally murdered at the local corner store near his house by adult-aged m̶e̶n̶ savages.

Thanks for bringing this up, because I missed this in my original post. This was a good kid who was a victim of mistaken identity. So where I have a problem is here was a kid who was weak and needed help. This forum as well as the rest of the manosphere bemoan the loss of traditional judeo-christian values like helping and defending the weak. Well here is a situation where you can defend the weak by confronting a machete wielding gang, but do you do it?

I think I'm torn because I want to say yes, but after taking the red pill I understand how disposable my life is, and that if I did sacrifice my life or even my physical health-say they chopped my arm off-at most I would get 15 seconds of fame, a medal or something and then be forgotten. Hell, knowing what I know about women, they would rather fuck the machete thugs then the me the guy who saved the kid. Not that getting laid is what I'm concerned about, but I use to prove that although it would be noble for me to intervene, I would end up dead or hurt with nothing to show for it a year from now.

But on the other hand, you have the life of a boy hanging in the balance who has his whole life ahead of him.

And maybe that what makes me so torn about this is my realization that I would be hesitant to save this kid if I was in that situation, knowing full well that I would be sending him to his death out my own self-preservation.

Post: #13

Post: #14

I actually watched the video(s) of the attack. Warning: It is very disgusting. In any event from what I could tell is the kid ran away prior to the attack into the bodega. He jumps over the counter while the owner or cashier looks in disbelief. It seems like he hides their for maybe a minute as numerous gangbangers continue to enter the store. They eventually find him and yank him out of the store. It wasn't like the owner was yelling yo hes right here. The kid seemed to be hidden.

How could the owner predict the level of violence that was going to ensue? There are cameras and this is very public. He couldn't possibly predict that these guys are gonna stab him to death. How many fights have we seen in schools where someone just gets a bit beat up, maybe a concussion, black eye(s), broken nose etc. Thats probably more in line with what the owners thinking.

Ultimately the kid seemingly gets stabbed outfront of the bodega (I'm not sure if this is where it was as he was outside on a sidewalk getting stabbed) by a bunch of wild animals. Eventually they book it the kid whose visibly bleeding all over including from his neck starts running. (I don't think he ran back into the bodega and was like call 911).

I don't understand why they don't just arrest all these fucking idiots with gang tattoos and put them on life sentences. All we need is a judge to set a precedent and / or a legislature change. Put all these gang guys away and throw away the keys. I'm big on incredibly harsh sentences. Kid lost his life. They all should to. Eye for an eye.

Post: #15

(06-27-2018 02:03 AM)lavidaloca Wrote:  I actually watched the video(s) of the attack. Warning: It is very disgusting. In any event from what I could tell is the kid ran away prior to the attack into the bodega. He jumps over the counter while the owner or cashier looks in disbelief. It seems like he hides their for maybe a minute as numerous gangbangers continue to enter the store. They eventually find him and yank him out of the store. It wasn't like the owner was yelling yo hes right here. The kid seemed to be hidden.

How could the owner predict the level of violence that was going to ensue? There are cameras and this is very public. He couldn't possibly predict that these guys are gonna stab him to death. How many fights have we seen in schools where someone just gets a bit beat up, maybe a concussion, black eye(s), broken nose etc. Thats probably more in line with what the owners thinking.

Ultimately the kid seemingly gets stabbed outfront of the bodega (I'm not sure if this is where it was as he was outside on a sidewalk getting stabbed) by a bunch of wild animals. Eventually they book it the kid whose visibly bleeding all over including from his neck starts running. (I don't think he ran back into the bodega and was like call 911).

I don't understand why they don't just arrest all these fucking idiots with gang tattoos and put them on life sentences. All we need is a judge to set a precedent and / or a legislature change. Put all these gang guys away and throw away the keys. I'm big on incredibly harsh sentences. Kid lost his life. They all should to. Eye for an eye.

Well yeah. A bullet in their skulls would definitely ensure no recidivism from them. It's just physically impossible once they're in the grave heheh.

Apparently these guys were part of an NYC-based Dominican gang known as the Trinitarios.

Post: #16

People should be focusing their outrage, disgust, hatred and call to action on the scum that did the attack, not the traumatized shopkeeper who has to live day to day in scumland.

Post: #17

Just watched the videos, and it seems pretty fucked up to me.

I mean, yeah, you can't expect the guy to intervene while a gang is attacking some kid with blades, and the first time the kid came in he probably didn't realize the gravity of the situation in time to lock up the doors and call the cops.

But in the last clip, the kid is shown stumbling back in bleeding from the wounds he would eventually die from. The gang is completely gone at this point and there's no danger in offering medical assistance, but the owner shooed the kid out the door, who died as he then attempted to walk to the hospital.

Given that last clip, especially, I can understand the community outrage. That's pretty callous behavior.

Beyond All Seas

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe.
To be your own man is a hard business. If you try it, you'll be lonely often, and sometimes
frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." - Kipling

Post: #18

Instead of harassing the bodega owner, the police should be hunting down the machete-wielding gangsters - you know, the ones who actually committed a crime.

Post: #19

p.s. we urgently need capital punishment back

Post: #20

(06-27-2018 02:03 AM)lavidaloca Wrote:  I actually watched the video(s) of the attack. Warning: It is very disgusting. In any event from what I could tell is the kid ran away prior to the attack into the bodega. He jumps over the counter while the owner or cashier looks in disbelief. It seems like he hides their for maybe a minute as numerous gangbangers continue to enter the store. They eventually find him and yank him out of the store. It wasn't like the owner was yelling yo hes right here. The kid seemed to be hidden.

How could the owner predict the level of violence that was going to ensue? There are cameras and this is very public. He couldn't possibly predict that these guys are gonna stab him to death. How many fights have we seen in schools where someone just gets a bit beat up, maybe a concussion, black eye(s), broken nose etc. Thats probably more in line with what the owners thinking.

Ultimately the kid seemingly gets stabbed outfront of the bodega (I'm not sure if this is where it was as he was outside on a sidewalk getting stabbed) by a bunch of wild animals. Eventually they book it the kid whose visibly bleeding all over including from his neck starts running. (I don't think he ran back into the bodega and was like call 911).

I don't understand why they don't just arrest all these fucking idiots with gang tattoos and put them on life sentences. All we need is a judge to set a precedent and / or a legislature change. Put all these gang guys away and throw away the keys. I'm big on incredibly harsh sentences. Kid lost his life. They all should to. Eye for an eye.

I agree - the owner could not know what the gang was about to do.

It's one bullshit article deflecting from what is truly happening - the Brazilization of the US - diversity again not being a strength.

The article and the comments make it out as if the owner was supposed to fight with the other gang-bangers. I would like to see those politicians fight with them without their security backup. And what if he had actually pulled a gun? What if one of them lunged at him and he shot him? He would be the villain - another gentle giant Treyvon Martin Obama-wannabe-son killed dindu nothing.

He called 911 when he could, the other bystanders in the shop also did not do much. The situation even was unclear whether the gang would return and dish out more violence.

In addition I might add - that is endemic of low-trust violent societies. As things deteriorate it becomes ever more common for those things to happen, people not seeing anything, not wanting to interfere for fear of getting killed themselves.

Post: #21

(06-27-2018 04:00 AM)Beyond Borders Wrote:  Just watched the videos, and it seems pretty fucked up to me.

I mean, yeah, you can't expect the guy to intervene while a gang is attacking some kid with blades, and the first time the kid came in he probably didn't realize the gravity of the situation in time to lock up the doors and call the cops.

But in the last clip, the kid is shown stumbling back in bleeding from the wounds he would eventually die from. The gang is completely gone at this point and there's no danger in offering medical assistance, but the owner shooed the kid out the door, who died as he then attempted to walk to the hospital.

Given that last clip, especially, I can understand the community outrage. That's pretty callous behavior.

People react differently in those situations, some jump into action, others are shocked out of their mind unable to do anything. We must assume that the guy behind the counter did not grow up in the US imbuing all the country has to to offer. You don't know his life's history and even if he committed a grave mistake out of panic, it's truly akin to the Seinfeld case above.

Post: #22

(06-27-2018 05:43 AM)Simeon_Strangelight Wrote:  

(06-27-2018 02:03 AM)lavidaloca Wrote:  I actually watched the video(s) of the attack. Warning: It is very disgusting. In any event from what I could tell is the kid ran away prior to the attack into the bodega. He jumps over the counter while the owner or cashier looks in disbelief. It seems like he hides their for maybe a minute as numerous gangbangers continue to enter the store. They eventually find him and yank him out of the store. It wasn't like the owner was yelling yo hes right here. The kid seemed to be hidden.

How could the owner predict the level of violence that was going to ensue? There are cameras and this is very public. He couldn't possibly predict that these guys are gonna stab him to death. How many fights have we seen in schools where someone just gets a bit beat up, maybe a concussion, black eye(s), broken nose etc. Thats probably more in line with what the owners thinking.

Ultimately the kid seemingly gets stabbed outfront of the bodega (I'm not sure if this is where it was as he was outside on a sidewalk getting stabbed) by a bunch of wild animals. Eventually they book it the kid whose visibly bleeding all over including from his neck starts running. (I don't think he ran back into the bodega and was like call 911).

I don't understand why they don't just arrest all these fucking idiots with gang tattoos and put them on life sentences. All we need is a judge to set a precedent and / or a legislature change. Put all these gang guys away and throw away the keys. I'm big on incredibly harsh sentences. Kid lost his life. They all should to. Eye for an eye.

I agree - the owner could not know what the gang was about to do.

It's one bullshit article deflecting from what is truly happening - the Brazilization of the US - diversity again not being a strength.

The article and the comments make it out as if the owner was supposed to fight with the other gang-bangers. I would like to see those politicians fight with them without their security backup. And what if he had actually pulled a gun? What if one of them lunged at him and he shot him? He would be the villain - another gentle giant Treyvon Martin Obama-wannabe-son killed dindu nothing.

He called 911 when he could, the other bystanders in the shop also did not do much. The situation even was unclear whether the gang would return and dish out more violence.

In addition I might add - that is endemic of low-trust violent societies. As things deteriorate it becomes ever more common for those things to happen, people not seeing anything, not wanting to interfere for fear of getting killed themselves.

This isn't about race.

Post: #23

(06-27-2018 07:26 AM)VisionsofGandhi Wrote:  This isn't about race.

^Perhaps...but it is 100 % about culture

By the way if the bodega owner had one of these...




...he could and likely would have protected the kid

Post: #24

(06-27-2018 07:36 AM)PapayaTapper Wrote:  

(06-27-2018 07:26 AM)VisionsofGandhi Wrote:  This isn't about race.

^Perhaps...but it is 100 % about culture

This sort of cultural ghetto behavior has occurred in every civilization, race and even every time in history.

Italians emigrants and Irish ones engaged in such behavior in more disgusting and prevalent ways during the prohibition.

Post: #25

(06-27-2018 07:36 AM)PapayaTapper Wrote:  

(06-27-2018 07:26 AM)VisionsofGandhi Wrote:  This isn't about race.

^Perhaps...but it is 100 % about culture

By the way if the bodega owner had one of these...




...he could and likely would have protected the kid

That's a pretty strong fucking deterrent. Will usually scare away a knife wielder quite effectively.