262- there is no magic bullet. You have to compromise certain things to get the other. Most of the regions listed EE, SEA are nice for lizards because they are poor. Inverse relationship between jobs and ease of lay. Do you want your game to be directed towards earning a living or do you want it to be for getting tail? We try to look for a happy medium when possible. A lot of guys here say they are not the typical black men so how many spoken word events have you attended? How many comic-cons have you gone to? Art galleries? I'm not saying this to point fault because I'm in the same boat. I think I will drop a monologue pod. We are having some audio issues plus work burdens hence the lull in posting activity but I'm absolutely certain that we covered this in quite a few podcasts. I'm quite on board with Archie regarding this, it's a dearth of game..especially in a place like the States. I wasn't feeling Toronto but by no means would I write off Canada for ease. Let me modify the location, location rant with this: Region, region, region!

(04-13-2016 05:46 AM)Excelsior Wrote:  

(04-07-2016 05:08 PM)DimeBait Wrote:  Personally, having married and had children by someone outside my race, now divorced, I basically learned my lesson. Though everyone's experience is different, my second time around, I would choose to settle down with someone that shared similar cultural experiences as me.

A couple of other guys in this thread have already said this so I won't belabor the point, but it is essential to note that for some guys, the people with the most cultural similarity/fit are not always going to be people that look like them.
The key, as others have said, is to find someone who meshes well with you.

As a black male, I find it particularly important to consider two things:
1. People who look like you may not always be the best fit, especially if you are a non-stereotypical black male living in a place like the USA. As I've noted in earlier posts, deviating too far from the expectation black women have of masculinity can leave you in a difficult position when it comes to maintaining relationships with them. If you're in this situation, you need to avoid subscribing to the "black queen"/"keep it black" logic that will often be forced on you. Find your best fit, whatever she looks like.

2. White women are not a panacea and shouldn't be treated as such. Even as a non-stereotypical black male who struggles connecting with black females in a place like the USA, you may find that many white girls come from backgrounds that are no more conducive to a healthy relationship with someone like you. DimeBait did a good job of outlining a situation in which that is the case (though his girl was hispanic) and illustrating the challenges that come with it.
I see a lot of non-stereotypical black men who feel like outsiders in black America respond by putting white women on a pedestal. The white girl is the answer to all of their romantic problems, a lifeline in a turbulent ocean they've navigated so far that has been filled with obstacles stemming from their non-stereotypical ways and disconnect with black culture. They give white girls slack when they don't necessarily deserve it and big them up when it is unnecessary. They effectively turn into simps round white girls, and we all know where that path takes you.

Personally, I know I've got an issue. I'm not nearly black enough for black American women and I have a very tough time connecting with them on a deeper level. We simply tend to live on different wavelengths, largely due to the way I was brought up. I'm just different - too far away from the norm of black masculinity to be consistently attractive to them at this point in my life.

How do I respond to this? Most black men in my position date out, and I'm not gonna be an exception. But I'm also not going to thirst after every non-black woman who appears as though she's some kind of lifeline in a stormy sea. While I might have better odds of positive interaction than I would with a standard black American woman (read: better odds of building rapport, more to talk about, etc), there are still serious challenges that I cannot be blinded too simply because I'm an outsider in black America and I want a "lifeline" to counter the rejection. There are no panaceas. I know that while I'm not black enough for the black women, I'm probably still too black for a lot of non-black women and (more importantly for someone considering a serious relationship with marriage, children, etc) FAR too black for many of their families. No man can afford to ignore these challenges if they want a serious relationship.

TL;DR: Find someone on a wavelength that is similar to yours that will allow you to connect. Don't assume that someone looks just like you, but don't go to the other extreme and assume that person must have some other phenotype (ex: pedestalizing white women as the all-encompassing, definitive "answer" to all problems of the non-stereotypical black male who struggles with black women). Keep an open mind.

I've come to the conclusion that outside a few places West of the Mississippi River, America is the most hostile to non-stereotypical black men. America, and more importantly, "Da Blak Communitah" has chosen the stereotypical thug and dopeboy as the paragon of Black Men. As for me, I consider that the ultimate betrayal to the point that I feel no connection to my so-called race and so-called country. Especially since I was from a "black mecca" where the people could easily set the trend to embrace non-stereotypical black men, but treated those kind of men worse than any white supremacist ever could.

At this point, working to GTFO America would be the fullproof solution, even if it's just Canada. And seeing the migrant crisis and Europe and the resulting rise in anti-minority sentiment, Canada seems to be one of the best options right now. However, as a non-stereotypical black man who moved from the East Coast to the Western US, I will admit that there is a notable decline in racism and hatred for non-ghetto black men. But I'm afraid that due to current events, the resilient ghetto subculture, and precarious environment in America, I can see a time in the foreseeable future when black Americans specifically will be treated like Jews in Nazi Germany. And unlike back then, the provocateurs will have a boatload of "justifiable" reasons to "take their country back".

@azulsombra From my observations, the rigid standards of black men haven't really changed. It's just got more lenient for dopeboys and thugs to be homothugs and swagfags, but the core image is still the same: act like an anti-intelligent, ebonics-speaking, rap video dressing, stereotypical goon. Now I will admit that there are your Kendrick Lamar, Pharrell, and Common types who can be masculine and stylish without looking and acting like complete stereotypes that didn't have dads in their lives. But the urban-lite masculinity image has never been my personal style neither. I think a part of it has to do with being forced to grow up in the Thug Worship Era of the late 90s and entire 2000s. Those images are something that will be burned in my memories and has turned me off to almost all derivatives of modern day black culture. And for anyone who says "get over your childhood", my response to you is "get over Jim Crow and Slavery", aka shit you never experienced.

(04-13-2016 10:56 AM)rhodey Wrote:  Another option could be finding a non stereotypical black women, they are out there.

They are out there...and most of them are dating white and other non-black men from the get-go.

Moma - Agree that there is no magic bullet, including game, location, or region.

Also agree that you have to look for a happy medium.

But, on that note, while the West is best for stacking paper, it's not like making a living in EE/SEA/LatAm is impossible. Too many guys - and even some guys in this section of the Internet - think that that's true though. So then they hope that Game will be their magic bullet. However, as we agree, there is no magic bullet - but there are happy mediums.

Now, if you and WIA are saying the dearth of Game in the West is related to the lower quality, I'll buy that. But then that implies that you're asking all Western men and/or women to learn their respective Games, which is basically asking society to change for you. That likely won't happen, despite it being in their interests.

Finally, on your example of not feeling Toronto but not writing off Canada - again, I'll point to the forum's collective experience. We have guys getting laid like tile in the Phils. We have guys in Kiev experiencing where a good chunk of fashion models come from. We have guys in Latin America in disbelief at the passion they get there.

What don't we have?

Guys ranting and raving about locations in the West. No "I got laid like tile here", no "wow, this must be where all the fashion models come from," and no "oh my God, I didn't know women could dance like that."

262, my area is actually great for me but people are going to say it's because of my accent. I'm in the West.

(04-13-2016 11:32 AM)DimeBait Wrote:   If you can’t get pussy in your hometown, chances are you can’t get it anywhere else. I just turned 40 and have never been outside of North America!

I'm gonna have to strongly disagree with this. I've seen it too many times in my own life and other brothas experiences to know its not true. This is a common tactic women use to shame men who seek better women in better places.

What if your hometown is full of bum ass bitches? What if you live in a place with terrible ratios(taking into account obesity and attractiveness)? I could go on and on.

I know my hometown was one such place. I learned in high school that if I drove 30mins away I could have girls approach me, while if I stayed in my hometown and tried to beg for scraps I would have been an incel virgin. Even within the states the differences can be stark, same dude, same game, different environment.

Multiply this by 3 in certain locations abroad. I'm not trying to overhype Mexico, its been done enough just using it as an example, but i've seen with my own eyes brothas that were suffering slumps where they live go to Mexico and pull in a few days.

Why do you think we have a thread looking for the best places for black men? Travel isnt a panacea for a hideous dude with bad hygiene and zero social skills. But its undeniable that some areas will provide a much greater return on invest for your time and efforts. ESPECIALLY, for the non-stereotypical black male.

(04-13-2016 12:40 PM)SuS Wrote:  

(04-13-2016 05:46 AM)Excelsior Wrote:  

(04-07-2016 05:08 PM)DimeBait Wrote:  Personally, having married and had children by someone outside my race, now divorced, I basically learned my lesson. Though everyone's experience is different, my second time around, I would choose to settle down with someone that shared similar cultural experiences as me.

A couple of other guys in this thread have already said this so I won't belabor the point, but it is essential to note that for some guys, the people with the most cultural similarity/fit are not always going to be people that look like them.
The key, as others have said, is to find someone who meshes well with you.

As a black male, I find it particularly important to consider two things:
1. People who look like you may not always be the best fit, especially if you are a non-stereotypical black male living in a place like the USA. As I've noted in earlier posts, deviating too far from the expectation black women have of masculinity can leave you in a difficult position when it comes to maintaining relationships with them. If you're in this situation, you need to avoid subscribing to the "black queen"/"keep it black" logic that will often be forced on you. Find your best fit, whatever she looks like.

2. White women are not a panacea and shouldn't be treated as such. Even as a non-stereotypical black male who struggles connecting with black females in a place like the USA, you may find that many white girls come from backgrounds that are no more conducive to a healthy relationship with someone like you. DimeBait did a good job of outlining a situation in which that is the case (though his girl was hispanic) and illustrating the challenges that come with it.
I see a lot of non-stereotypical black men who feel like outsiders in black America respond by putting white women on a pedestal. The white girl is the answer to all of their romantic problems, a lifeline in a turbulent ocean they've navigated so far that has been filled with obstacles stemming from their non-stereotypical ways and disconnect with black culture. They give white girls slack when they don't necessarily deserve it and big them up when it is unnecessary. They effectively turn into simps round white girls, and we all know where that path takes you.

Personally, I know I've got an issue. I'm not nearly black enough for black American women and I have a very tough time connecting with them on a deeper level. We simply tend to live on different wavelengths, largely due to the way I was brought up. I'm just different - too far away from the norm of black masculinity to be consistently attractive to them at this point in my life.

How do I respond to this? Most black men in my position date out, and I'm not gonna be an exception. But I'm also not going to thirst after every non-black woman who appears as though she's some kind of lifeline in a stormy sea. While I might have better odds of positive interaction than I would with a standard black American woman (read: better odds of building rapport, more to talk about, etc), there are still serious challenges that I cannot be blinded too simply because I'm an outsider in black America and I want a "lifeline" to counter the rejection. There are no panaceas. I know that while I'm not black enough for the black women, I'm probably still too black for a lot of non-black women and (more importantly for someone considering a serious relationship with marriage, children, etc) FAR too black for many of their families. No man can afford to ignore these challenges if they want a serious relationship.

TL;DR: Find someone on a wavelength that is similar to yours that will allow you to connect. Don't assume that someone looks just like you, but don't go to the other extreme and assume that person must have some other phenotype (ex: pedestalizing white women as the all-encompassing, definitive "answer" to all problems of the non-stereotypical black male who struggles with black women). Keep an open mind.

I've come to the conclusion that outside a few places West of the Mississippi River, America is the most hostile to non-stereotypical black men. America, and more importantly, "Da Blak Communitah" has chosen the stereotypical thug and dopeboy as the paragon of Black Men. As for me, I consider that the ultimate betrayal to the point that I feel no connection to my so-called race and so-called country. Especially since I was from a "black mecca" where the people could easily set the trend to embrace non-stereotypical black men, but treated those kind of men worse than any white supremacist ever could.

At this point, working to GTFO America would be the fullproof solution, even if it's just Canada. And seeing the migrant crisis and Europe and the resulting rise in anti-minority sentiment, Canada seems to be one of the best options right now. However, as a non-stereotypical black man who moved from the East Coast to the Western US, I will admit that there is a notable decline in racism and hatred for non-ghetto black men. But I'm afraid that due to current events, the resilient ghetto subculture, and precarious environment in America, I can see a time in the foreseeable future when black Americans specifically will be treated like Jews in Nazi Germany. And unlike back then, the provocateurs will have a boatload of "justifiable" reasons to "take their country back".

@azulsombra From my observations, the rigid standards of black men haven't really changed. It's just got more lenient for dopeboys and thugs to be homothugs and swagfags, but the core image is still the same: act like an anti-intelligent, ebonics-speaking, rap video dressing, stereotypical goon. Now I will admit that there are your Kendrick Lamar, Pharrell, and Common types who can be masculine and stylish without looking and acting like complete stereotypes that didn't have dads in their lives. But the urban-lite masculinity image has never been my personal style neither. I think a part of it has to do with being forced to grow up in the Thug Worship Era of the late 90s and entire 2000s. Those images are something that will be burned in my memories and has turned me off to almost all derivatives of modern day black culture. And for anyone who says "get over your childhood", my response to you is "get over Jim Crow and Slavery", aka shit you never experienced.

(04-13-2016 10:56 AM)rhodey Wrote:  Another option could be finding a non stereotypical black women, they are out there.

They are out there...and most of them are dating white and other non-black men from the get-go.

I feel what you are saying...it sounds like we are basically from the same era and the same part of the country. Yes, the dumb ass goon culture still exists and is too common but it is largely AA women, yes even college types, that seek out that culture. This is one of the main reason I typically limit contact with AA women. Non-black women (doesn't just mean white), seem to embrace alternatives to hood brothas more in my experience, especially if they project success or potential success.

Im glad that you did admit that their are now acceptable alternatives to the ratchet culture that women find attractive, Kendricks, Common, Yeezy,types etc. It may not seem like a lot of progress but it was much worse before and definitely better out West. Not to make this about you in particular but you said you can't embrace the mature slightly urban still of someone like Common. Im curious to what your style is? Is it very business like, high quality suits and such?

If you are going after attractive AA women you don't have to go the dopeboy route but you better not be "corny" black women are the fastest to call someone corny. So you either have to be/look very athletic or have an insanely good gift of gab and some shit to back it up. Attractive black womens hypergamy has zero tolerance for "corny or normal" guys.

(04-13-2016 10:56 AM)rhodey Wrote:  

(04-13-2016 05:46 AM)Excelsior Wrote:  

(04-07-2016 05:08 PM)DimeBait Wrote:  Personally, having married and had children by someone outside my race, now divorced, I basically learned my lesson. Though everyone's experience is different, my second time around, I would choose to settle down with someone that shared similar cultural experiences as me.

A couple of other guys in this thread have already said this so I won't belabor the point, but it is essential to note that for some guys, the people with the most cultural similarity/fit are not always going to be people that look like them.
The key, as others have said, is to find someone who meshes well with you.

As a black male, I find it particularly important to consider two things:
1. People who look like you may not always be the best fit, especially if you are a non-stereotypical black male living in a place like the USA. As I've noted in earlier posts, deviating too far from the expectation black women have of masculinity can leave you in a difficult position when it comes to maintaining relationships with them. If you're in this situation, you need to avoid subscribing to the "black queen"/"keep it black" logic that will often be forced on you. Find your best fit, whatever she looks like.

2. White women are not a panacea and shouldn't be treated as such. Even as a non-stereotypical black male who struggles connecting with black females in a place like the USA, you may find that many white girls come from backgrounds that are no more conducive to a healthy relationship with someone like you. DimeBait did a good job of outlining a situation in which that is the case (though his girl was hispanic) and illustrating the challenges that come with it.
I see a lot of non-stereotypical black men who feel like outsiders in black America respond by putting white women on a pedestal. The white girl is the answer to all of their romantic problems, a lifeline in a turbulent ocean they've navigated so far that has been filled with obstacles stemming from their non-stereotypical ways and disconnect with black culture. They give white girls slack when they don't necessarily deserve it and big them up when it is unnecessary. They effectively turn into simps round white girls, and we all know where that path takes you.

Personally, I know I've got an issue. I'm not nearly black enough for black American women and I have a very tough time connecting with them on a deeper level. We simply tend to live on different wavelengths, largely due to the way I was brought up. I'm just different - too far away from the norm of black masculinity to be consistently attractive to them at this point in my life.

How do I respond to this? Most black men in my position date out, and I'm not gonna be an exception. But I'm also not going to thirst after every non-black woman who appears as though she's some kind of lifeline in a stormy sea. While I might have better odds of positive interaction than I would with a standard black American woman (read: better odds of building rapport, more to talk about, etc), there are still serious challenges that I cannot be blinded too simply because I'm an outsider in black America and I want a "lifeline" to counter the rejection. There are no panaceas. I know that while I'm not black enough for the black women, I'm probably still too black for a lot of non-black women and (more importantly for someone considering a serious relationship with marriage, children, etc) FAR too black for many of their families. No man can afford to ignore these challenges if they want a serious relationship.

TL;DR: Find someone on a wavelength that is similar to yours that will allow you to connect. Don't assume that someone looks just like you, but don't go to the other extreme and assume that person must have some other phenotype (ex: pedestalizing white women as the all-encompassing, definitive "answer" to all problems of the non-stereotypical black male who struggles with black women). Keep an open mind.

Another option could be finding a non stereotypical black women, they are out there.

This sounds good. It would agree in principle but from what I see here, the pickings are pretty slim. I won't resurrect any of my notorious posts slamming black women, but I do not see any improvement from let's say 3-4 years ago. I mentioned the blue hair and alternative chicks just a minute ago. I am being very serious when I say that I see a black woman with blue hair everyday. Sometimes they are fat sometimes their body and face are on point.

Thing is, it makes the pool much smaller. I recently saw a black chick that took my breath away at the grocery store (I just moved). She was tall, perfect body, hair was amazing and really long. No weave. Her face was amazing symmetrically speaking. She looked like one of the photoshopped ass models in Excelsior 10 thread but without the fake ass part. I have seen alot of hot black women before, but this one really stood out. She got alot of stares from others too, so I wasn't only dude looking.

The bomb was that she had a loop in her nose, eye piercings, and a few tiny tats. She was dressed up high fashion, but still.... that was a gargantuan waste. I could go another year and not see another one on that chick's level face wise. You could go to a club like Venue in Houston or similar, but for what? They are all stereotype and ball busters.

Go to Atlanta instead? I guess. Problem is that it is enough of a struggle to get one with the right body and face to begin with. Get that part covered? Cool. When she opens her mouth, does your dick go limp over her attitude?

A guy like Excelsior has written extensively on these women, because he is obviously picky enough to not look past the looks for the sake of a easy nut. He obviously wanted something more. Not saying he wanted a wife, but like our white counterparts like to say on here alot "Look good, be pleasant, don't be a cunt". It is HARD to get all 3 out of the black women available here.

Being 6 figures, a lawyer, doctor, etc. can sometimes help you get into the right atmosphere, but like I wrote about before, here , it can get often times give them the wrong idea about what you are all about. Provider box, beta box, dorks and nerds to a black woman can at times be the same as a black dude with no game. Forget the thug stuff for a minute, they probably moved on from that for the most part. They can be terrible with the nuances of the boxes they put dudes in. Black women do not have the right priorities. How many of you guys know any brothers, earning 110,000-450,000 a year, that are constantly chased by black golddigers, and they are not pro athletes? Other professional white dudes are far more likely to have this problem.

Like I posted in that link, white dudes have bigger issues with golddiggers than we do. Only our rich and famous have this problem. No black woman has ever told me, "Wow I really like your car. Can I ride in it? A white girl? Yep. Lots of you guys spy on the other side (lipstick alley and other hoe-zones). What do you see out there? It's like 1,000,000 of these kinds of women are constantly chasing 2,000 black pro athletes and celebs. They are more likely to be shitted on by an Arab or stuck by lightning with those odds. They must not like math. They just don't conduct themselves with any hint of strategy at all. Only the ones with great (and usually very Christian) families do, but again, the math does not favor the black male looking for above average to well above average black women.

The first time I read his article on How Black America Predicted Our Future, I could feel this brother's frustration in his writing even though he wrote it like more like a dry observant scientist. The reason why I could feel the deep emotion in it, was because the depth of observation demonstrated that he actually cares ALOT about black women/people. Enough to write something so scathing it amounted to throwing them underneath a moving bus, in front of all the white people, in order to get everyone's attention. It was like watching that Old Yeller movie all over again to see the part where they take the dog out to be put down. Shit was crazy sad, but it had to be fucking done!!

Excelsior, if you gotta get a white, brown, Asian, etc. Jamaican or an American that fits what you need and want. Do what you gotta do brother! If you really want a black/dark 8-10 that is essentially a unicorn, you may want to start praying for one to be sent to you. Seriously! Prayer works. Keep your eyes open for signs too as to where you should go or what direction to head into. There is no such thing as a coincidence when you see a big sign of things. Your previous posts about hunting in your home country sounded like a great plan but plans are called plans for a reason. Shit changes all the time.

Moma, regardless of what they say about your accent, the forum's collective experience still points outside the West. We simply don't have enough anecdotes or evidence here to suggest to folks that if they don't get what they want in the West, that it's only their Game that's at fault, and not possibly the fact that they're in the West.

Anecdotes like yours, unfortunately, are not often experienced on this forum. However, usually, when it is expressed, it usually tends to include the implication that if you go abroad for women, your Game must therefore be lacking, no ifs, ands, or buts.

(04-13-2016 11:25 AM)262 Wrote:  

(04-13-2016 11:16 AM)Moma Wrote:  I agree with WIA completely that it's a case of game. A lot of us won't admit (myself included) that our game needs work. America is a big place, you can find niche lizards for the personality traits you mesh with. Are you looking for lots of sex or a wifey? Ask yourselves that.

America and the Western world are big places, but the collective forum experience seems to suggest that your return on investment in women is low there, relative to EE/SEA/LatAm, regardless of whether you're looking for notches or a wife.

I disagree entirely. Might be heresy to say something bad about poosy paradise. Return on investment, or ease is the wrong metric.

And getting good game in your own culture is easier than learning a new culture and then getting good game.

(04-13-2016 11:25 AM)262 Wrote:  Game is necessary everywhere, but it's not a magic bullet.

Game is applied psychology and men applying psychology is what runs the world.

Trying to bag women is a small part of a greater whole.

WIA

(04-13-2016 01:30 PM)azulsombra Wrote:  

(04-13-2016 11:32 AM)DimeBait Wrote:   If you can’t get pussy in your hometown, chances are you can’t get it anywhere else. I just turned 40 and have never been outside of North America!

I'm gonna have to strongly disagree with this. I've seen it too many times in my own life and other brothas experiences to know its not true. This is a common tactic women use to shame men who seek better women in better places.

What if your hometown is full of bum ass bitches? What if you live in a place with terrible ratios(taking into account obesity and attractiveness)? I could go on and on.

I know my hometown was one such place. I learned in high school that if I drove 30mins away I could have girls approach me, while if I stayed in my hometown and tried to beg for scraps I would have been an incel virgin. Even within the states the differences can be stark, same dude, same game, different environment.

Multiply this by 3 in certain locations abroad. I'm not trying to overhype Mexico, its been done enough just using it as an example, but i've seen with my own eyes brothas that were suffering slumps where they live go to Mexico and pull in a few days.

Why do you think we have a thread looking for the best places for black men? Travel isnt a panacea for a hideous dude with bad hygiene and zero social skills. But its undeniable that some areas will provide a much greater return on invest for your time and efforts. ESPECIALLY, for the non-stereotypical black male.

I understand your point and agree to a certain extent. I got buckets load of pussy in high school by going to adjacent towns where I was fresh meat. It's probably why, still to this day, when I meet a woman I say I just moved here (though I've been here for over 8 years). Women, not unlike anyone else, love something new. However, I'm simply referring to making the best out of your current situation.

I keep hearing this "non stereotypical" black men theme described as if it's a hindrance here in the states. IMO, it's a major positive because, from my experience, most women what something aside from the status quo. I haven't worn a pair of tennis shoes (jordans, Air Force 1's etc) in nearly a decade and attract a plethora of women looking for something refreshingly different. I predominately wear suits and chicks across all stratospheres lap it up. A man confident enough to go against the grain can pull anything.

I wholeheartedly respect everyone's opinion on this board which is why I've been a long time lurker. However, I respectfully disagree with how black women are referred to in the collective. I've lived long enough to know that simply is not the case. I read the following quote on verysmartbrothas.com and I thought of the discussion here:
" If you believe Blackness possesses an inherent pathology, this belief is either an extension of your feelings on the Blackness you currently possess or will eventually extend to it."

(04-13-2016 01:49 PM)WestIndianArchie Wrote:  

(04-13-2016 11:25 AM)262 Wrote:  America and the Western world are big places, but the collective forum experience seems to suggest that your return on investment in women is low there, relative to EE/SEA/LatAm, regardless of whether you're looking for notches or a wife.

I disagree entirely. Might be heresy to say something bad about poosy paradise. Return on investment, or ease is the wrong metric.

And getting good game in your own culture is easier than learning a new culture and then getting good game.

It's not heresy, it's a weakly supported argument. It isn't a conspiracy, just because the anecdotes and evidence don't fall your way. I agree that poosy paradise is built and not found, but would you start your building in a swamp? Also noticed from your profile that you haven't traveled much outside the West.

Return on investment is the wrong metric? Be right back guys, I'm going to implement "Compliment and Cuddle," since the results I get for my effort don't matter. I'm also going to major in feminist dance therapy, since again, the results I get for my effort don't matter.

(04-13-2016 01:49 PM)WestIndianArchie Wrote:  

(04-13-2016 11:25 AM)262 Wrote:  Game is necessary everywhere, but it's not a magic bullet.

Game is applied psychology and men applying psychology is what runs the world.

Trying to bag women is a small part of a greater whole.

WIA

Agree, which is why you want to maximize your return on investment with women, so you can apply more of your Game to the other parts of that greater whole.

Or is it heresy to say Game is not a magic bullet?

(04-13-2016 11:32 AM)DimeBait Wrote:  Anyone who thinks or speaks of Blacks in America as a monolithic block has a lot of living to do. We are so different on so many levels but only share the most basic common denominators; our skin color and the way we're perceived and treated. At some point, it becomes more about class when learning to differentiate among us.
Excelsior mentioned that he often feels disconnected as an outsider to "stereotypical" black culture. I feel you brother, however, I would argue that there is no such thing as a stereotypical mass black culture. Unfortunately, lower socioeconomic blacks get more airtime than the ones who live and work like any other group of Americans. As a result, people, including are own think this is what it's like to be black. Oddly, there are an onslaught of sisters that feel the same way you do, who date white guys because they have difficulty connecting with the same groups you mention. Quite frankly, you need to hit the spots a trap bitch wouldn’t be caught dead in, I.e., campus lectures, book clubs, poetry sets etc.

There are many of us who grew up in suburbs, attended great schools and are 2nd and 3rd generation post-secondary degree holders, who have never set foot in the "hood" and couldn't tell you the first thing about growing up poor. I suspect, as they get older, they'll start to see there are many, many more folks out there with similar backgrounds.


To be clear, when I ask which countries are more conducive to black men, I simply mean "not hostile,” I'm not referring to easy pussy. If you can’t get pussy in your hometown, chances are you can’t get it anywhere else. I just turned 40 and have never been outside of North America! After years of school and hard work, and now that my kids are nearly ready to go off to college, I’m finally in a position to travel and experience the world. One thing I’ve learned about GAME is that it’s a marketable skill that not everyone possess and can be used in every aspect of your life. Not just to bang chicks, but also to make friends, network, and create connections. Life is fucking short fellas. We are dying at younger and younger ages, Phife Dawg just passed away at 46! I made up my mind to get what I can before my time comes.

That's your problem right there. Liberal spaces that reinforce feminist mindset and social dysfunction. You don't need to be Lizard of Oz or Annyomous Boch to see what a morally and intellectually bankrupt woman is or how they think like if you go to spaces like that. Had you said meet them at a church or something similar, I might have smirked, but said nothing. A poetry slam? I cannot think of anything that exemplifies unfeminine behavior more when it comes to stuff black people do, which is alot more mixed crowd wise these days anyway. I can count on one hand. I have been to enough of these sets to have seen this, where there was a feminine black woman pining on how awesome her man is. I can also count on two hands the amount of hissing and pffffts I heard from others around. I think each one of these pining over a man were kinda chubby/fat/thick too. No self respecting redpill minded black man should bother with women from these dens, unless you just truly do not care about getting caught up and you are just trying to get a nut anywhere you can.

Biggest gripe I have with black folks right now is the all this "Education this", we need more "Education that" bullshit and nearly all of it is hyper liberal and self fulfilling mental masturbation, that will keep us back another 200 fucking years. White people seem to be able to afford liberal do nothing know-nothings for children and relatives and it may not do jack shit to the bulk of their family due to a lasting legacy of those that used their resources correctly. That is not counting all the Mitt Romney like families out there, inheriting the "Kingdom of God" and doing everything right. We are so dead set on "going to school" and "getting degrees" that we cannot see the forest for the trees. We are playing the game a loser plays ultimately. Some of us stumble out of school into so-so people, get back into church, and start figuring it out after a few kids and bible study what we ought to be doing. The whole time fighting with that woman. The vast majority of us are making wastes of education by studying the wrong things and turning little black girls into hyper-masculine creatures that cannot bond with any man at all, with no goals to be good wives only family matriarchs with power.

We probably have no choice is the sad truth but to let them all get educated and indoctrinated into liberal bullshit, then work backwards to understand what is truly worth knowing. Our churches are no better than the non-black ones that have feminist indoctrinated teachings prevalent in bigger churches. Still gets on my nerves though to see this inefficiency continue year after year. I wonder if there is a better way. I dunno what the answer is.

I'm loving these discussions. Seriously. Keep it up, guys.

(04-13-2016 02:14 PM)Huey Wrote:  I'm loving these discussions. Seriously. Keep it up, guys.

Traveler, what about going to African events or Caribbean events? Those lizards have a different mentality.

(04-13-2016 02:07 PM)262 Wrote:  

(04-13-2016 01:49 PM)WestIndianArchie Wrote:  

(04-13-2016 11:25 AM)262 Wrote:  America and the Western world are big places, but the collective forum experience seems to suggest that your return on investment in women is low there, relative to EE/SEA/LatAm, regardless of whether you're looking for notches or a wife.

I disagree entirely. Might be heresy to say something bad about poosy paradise. Return on investment, or ease is the wrong metric.

And getting good game in your own culture is easier than learning a new culture and then getting good game.

It's not heresy, it's a weakly supported argument. It isn't a conspiracy, just because the anecdotes and evidence don't fall your way. I agree that poosy paradise is built and not found, but would you start your building in a swamp? Also noticed from your profile that you haven't traveled much outside the West.

Return on investment is the wrong metric? Be right back guys, I'm going to implement "Compliment and Cuddle," since the results I get for my effort don't matter. I'm also going to major in feminist dance therapy, since again, the results I get for my effort don't matter.

(04-13-2016 01:49 PM)WestIndianArchie Wrote:  

(04-13-2016 11:25 AM)262 Wrote:  Game is necessary everywhere, but it's not a magic bullet.

Game is applied psychology and men applying psychology is what runs the world.

Trying to bag women is a small part of a greater whole.

WIA

Agree, which is why you want to maximize your return on investment with women, so you can apply more of your Game to the other parts of that greater whole.

Or is it heresy to say Game is not a magic bullet?

We chop this to death in the non-black man threads in Travel or Game subforums all the time.

Travel can make it easier, yes. Want to pull quality consistently abroad? You need game. No game is still some kind of game. Game is what you are made of as man. Your wealth, your looks, your speech, your swagger accumulates to your greater game.

So while hopping off the plane in a place like the Philippines can get you pussy hours from landing, that does not mean you will pull 7-10 like that over there. Maybe not even 6-10. You will need more game to pull higher consistently. That is how you gauge your success.

I agree and disagree with WIA, that you need to learn game at home first. You can pick up game anywhere at anytime, culture aside. Location does not matter. Only the amount of effort does.

The thing is that you have to learn the other culture regardless, unless sticking to heavily Westernized/Americanized targets there. For example I used very little of the game I had here in China. It just doesn't work well at all over there. Once I learned the culture there, other options opened up that was unknown before traveling there, such as advanced game techniques that alpha dog Chinese men use. You cannot learn such techniques at home first, not even the basics of it.

However learning the basic fundamentals of game at home first, allows you to recognize that you will need to re-tool somewhere else that is different. The mindset is like water, it should take the form of it's container whatever that may be.

(04-13-2016 12:27 PM)Moma Wrote:  262- there is no magic bullet. You have to compromise certain things to get the other. Most of the regions listed EE, SEA are nice for lizards because they are poor. Let me modify the location, location rant with this: Region, region, region!

People don't like to admit this is the reason for alot of things.
Despite many people across the globe hating Americans, being an American is a big plus and many of these foreign chicks would sell their mother's for a chance to visit or live in America.
Being a black American is even a bigger draw, you are the epitome of cool. Due to my accent, most people assumed I was American in my travels. Needing "game" in EE involves showing up in clean clothes and smelling nice. Christ, I wore dirty converse shoes in a night club in Croatia and got IOI's from hot chicks.

Racism exists in every country, do not be fooled and think it does not just because you did not experience it.

Where we fall short as black men, is getting our money right. Everyone understand the power of money, they can hate me all they want but they will respect me.

(04-13-2016 02:41 PM)Moma Wrote:  Traveler, what about going to African events or Caribbean events? Those lizards have a different mentality.

What if I as a Black American is not attracted to African lizards? Let's just imagine there are no Kenyans around okay?

I know for a fact that Caribbean woman and I have zero affinity with one another nor am I knowledgeable about their culture. It was pretty cool going to one Caribbean island and finding out that they have some of the same Creole food my French Haitian side on one of my parents side, but I digress....

What about brothers from the Midwest that just want a simple Black American woman to treat them nice like the African and Caribbean lizards are more likely to do? I'm talking about a lizard that knows how to fry a catfish and knows that you smoke beef with mesquite wood and not hickory and I do not have to tell homegirl first, she brings the right bag of wood over to my smoker by default.

Does the answer always have to be seek out African or Caribbean? No one shares the same cultures as them. May not even share the same values either.

I don't know about everyone else, but I can quickly screen for submissive traits. That, and the willingness to learn new things gives me something to work with. She may not know how to smoke a brisket with the perfect bark, but if she has the ability and affinity to learn then I can work with that.

(04-13-2016 03:11 PM)DimeBait Wrote:  I don't know about everyone else, but I can quickly screen for submissive traits. That, and the willingness to learn new things gives me something to work with. She may not know how to smoke a brisket with the perfect bark, but if she has the ability and affinity to learn then I can work with that.

I am a teacher and a coach. I don't mind that, but not everyone is like us.

Traveler, what are these values that you are talking about? I listed African and Caribbean generically but again those groups are very hardly a monolithic group. Every single country in Africa (50 plus) have their own individual culture and language. I've been hanging out with Cape Verdeans since coming to America yet I'm more familiar with African Americans. According to the paper, I should be more familiar with Cape Verde because I'm 'African', right?

Caribbean again varies tremendously. Jamaica is my strong suit but I've been dabbling in other islands and they are very different. Trinidad is different from Jamaica, Barbados different from Trinidad etc. Again, my question is, what is this culture she is to share? You guys are already rejecting what is acclaimed to be current culture, shaving the side of hair, tatts and drama, understandably so. So what are the good parts of African American culture that you don't see being replicated in the African or Caribbeans that you encounter?

(04-13-2016 11:16 AM)Moma Wrote:  I agree with WIA completely that it's a case of game. A lot of us won't admit (myself included) that our game needs work. America is a big place, you can find niche lizards for the personality traits you mesh with. Are you looking for lots of sex or a wifey? Ask yourselves that.

Totally agree. However I think sometimes we think our game needs
work when really we're just not in the right environment most of the time.

Think about where you spend most of your time...at work...at home...in the car etc and when most guys go out...they usually spend the rest of their time looking for girls rather than having a mix of solid relationships and activities/connections that automatically brings girls to them.

We talk about approaching girls in the club, in bars and on the street. That's what most people think of when they think about game. However that model is so outdated...even the Romans used to do that...there's even a book by a Roman on how to pick up girls at the festivals.

I think modern game is more about actively building a community of people who interact with you personally in multiple ways...and ideally they come to you for advice or something that you provide...either while hosting an event or providing access to something they want.

Traditional game will always be here...and sometimes you will run into the right girl on the street or the checkout line. However I think some guys are going to have to start getting directly involved in larger communities that have a healthy ratio of activities/events to the kind of women they want to meet.

And by directly...I mean organizing, hosting and or providing something that makes people come to you and have conversations...

The arc of a player

Starts as a square
Doubts himself, pedestalizes women
Maybe he gets a gf or two, but he holds on to them for dear life
Or maybe he goes without and stays in the various friend zones

Then he hears about the game.
He doubts it, and the doubt will stay with him for years

He reads, sounds reasonable
Tries this game stuff out.
On girls in class or at work.

Smh

Gets a little glimmer of hope, but mostly has to fight his crippling approach anxiety.

Better than where he was, he eventually improves, but not until he puts in the time and sets aside his ego.

Real success starts to come

Cold approach to number, to kiss, to date, to bang

But only snipes at chicks. Nothing more than a three set, and only in social environments like bars and clubs.

He's in "player" mode, but can't ever seem to get to the upper echelon chicks. He knows they exist, he sees them occasionally, but always roped off from gen pop at the clubs.

But because he's not a jerk, he's chill with staff and gets a bit of rep from random chicks.

Eventually he's cool with dudes that go out. His bar friends.

He'll stall unless he can start making stronger connections at the places he frequents.

Goes for pizza after the spot closes. Chats up randoms in line. He's in the scene, and now he realizes that this entire year of growth, it's maybe twenty or thirty different cliques that all go to the same clubs and do the same stuff. The rest of these venues are staff, elites, and weekend types.

If he's sharp, he extrapolates. This is probably what every scene is like, from bingo to burlesque.

Why not invite Thursday night people to some new shit?

Before long the player is in the middle of a web. He connects with guys higher up, then has access to what they do.

He sees what is possible.

But that's because he moved on from mere cold approaches on three sets.

This is traditional game.

Most night life cold approach guys go through this cycle if they don't get lazy.

New Guys always want to jump to the head of the line, but don't spend the time dealing with folks that allow him to do that.

Can you approach mixed sets
Deal with alpha males
Handle hater chicks
Move entire groups

You need all of those skills to be at the top of the pyramid.

WIA

(04-13-2016 03:25 PM)Moma Wrote:  Traveler, what are these values that you are talking about? I listed African and Caribbean generically but again those groups are very hardly a monolithic group. Every single country in Africa (50 plus) have their own individual culture and language. I've been hanging out with Cape Verdeans since coming to America yet I'm more familiar with African Americans. According to the paper, I should be more familiar with Cape Verde because I'm 'African', right?

Caribbean again varies tremendously. Jamaica is my strong suit but I've been dabbling in other islands and they are very different. Trinidad is different from Jamaica, Barbados different from Trinidad etc. Again, my question is, what is this culture she is to share? You guys are already rejecting what is acclaimed to be current culture, shaving the side of hair, tatts and drama, understandably so. So what are the good parts of African American culture that you don't see being replicated in the African or Caribbeans that you encounter?

Values or Value Systems are completely different from culture. Culture can contain values though.

For example:

You have two Mexicans.

Mexican-American A is a Jehovah's Witness.

Mexican-American B is a Catholic.

Mexican-American A might come bail you out of jail one night you fucked up, even though neither of you have ever hung out outside of the workplace. Doesn't mean he won't shun you after doing it though....

Mexican-American B might say, sorry man I feel bad for you but I don't really know you like that.

Certain Muslims, like Afghan ones, treat guests in their house better than family in lots of ways. Is it 100% because of the religion? No not necessarily, alot of that is cultural. It's a part of their overall value system that is part of their culture. The two Mexicans may both be Mexican and share the same culture, but they may never share many of the same values or keep the same traditions either. Mexican-American B might honor Dia de los Muertos or have a Santa Muerte decal on their truck. Mexican-American A would would get very upset if you even bothered them with that stuff or would try to witness to you on the spot. Both would still dance to most Mexican music though.

Some MBTI personality types have strong affinities to certain values in regards to how the treat and interact with others. Some of these personalities mesh even more with certain cultures too. For example INFP, INFJ, ISFJ, and ENFPs are known for having strong base value systems in regards to how they interact with others and notoriously stubborn about it as well. (http://www.personalitypage.com/html/relationships.html) While not everyone agrees, most think Jesus may have been an INFJ or an INFP due to his caring nature and strong regard for others. I can talk about types for hours so I will leave it there for the sake of time...

Like I alluded to in a previous post, my own value system is more similar to your average Chinese person than to your average Nigerians. I personally know more than 20-50 of each group, so when I say that I am not basing it off 3 or 4 people I know. Some guys in the Manosphere or whatever like to refer to value systems as "vibe" sometimes, but even then that is two very different things, but no doubt they can be related as well. Too many times listening to Nigerians trying to explain something to me in their culture often caused us to have heated discussions or make me want to roll my eyes or shake my head. Chinese cultural stuff does that to me sometimes too, but most of the time I understand why they do that and I get it for the most part or I even agree or like it. For quite a few people Chinese culture stuff gives them a fucking headache and drives them absolutely crazy, especially certain guys on this forum. That definitely can be part of the overall vibe one has with different groups.

Even when a different culture can be handled, that does not mean the individual people involved have the right values. One of the worst women I have ever dealt with from a values perspective was Chinese. If fact, I think number 2 worst was probably Chinese too now that I think about it. I am very certain had I ever met their parents, I am pretty sure we would have had a fight or something. Many people get their shitty values system directly from their family. Rich or poor, wouldn't matter either.

Quote:I've been hanging out with Cape Verdeans since coming to America yet I'm more familiar with African Americans. According to the paper, I should be more familiar with Cape Verde because I'm 'African', right?

I have no idea. I don't think anyone can answer that question for you. On the surface wouldn't it appear that you should identify with your own ethnic groups you belong to, much like Desta identifies as Ethiopian? Are you a mix of two kinds of African? If so, are both West African? I think the only thing one West African has in common with another is that they probably go to the same African grocery store or something, lol. Do Ghanaian people eat fufu or the same stews Nigerians eat? What about garri or stewed plantain? Do other West Africans eat stew spicy with Habenero/Scotch Bonnet peppers like some Nigerians would?

Quote:Caribbean again varies tremendously. Jamaica is my strong suit but I've been dabbling in other islands and they are very different. Trinidad is different from Jamaica, Barbados different from Trinidad etc. Again, my question is, what is this culture she is to share? You guys are already rejecting what is acclaimed to be current culture, shaving the side of hair, tatts and drama, understandably so. So what are the good parts of African American culture that you don't see being replicated in the African or Caribbeans that you encounter?

For me I would not expect a girl from there to be something culturally that she is not. I just might not vibe or agree with her people's culture as a whole. I may not like her's and her family's value system or religious values either. If that was the case, I would keep it moving or not bother approaching her. Usually they don't like me anyway, lol. I think I have batted all zeros with women from there. Not that many around here anyway with the looks I like at least. Not like other parts of the US perhaps.

Girls with tatts, drama, etc. were Black American women. I don't think I have seen or come across one from Africa or the Caribbean yet.

Good parts of the culture is not the issue. The issue is that some of them have some culture stuff I cannot stand. Some even have values I think are shit to go along with the cultural stuff that I may not like. By no means am I an expert on Africans in general, but it's funny how I have had fights over some of the same shitty issues with one of my Egyptian buddies, my ex-wife, and a former best friend from Morocco. 3 different people, same bullshit stuff. It could be that American or Western values that I may have are the offending factor, but I would not be very American if I ever admitted to that right?

(04-13-2016 02:07 PM)262 Wrote:  

(04-13-2016 01:49 PM)WestIndianArchie Wrote:  

(04-13-2016 11:25 AM)262 Wrote:  America and the Western world are big places, but the collective forum experience seems to suggest that your return on investment in women is low there, relative to EE/SEA/LatAm, regardless of whether you're looking for notches or a wife.

I disagree entirely. Might be heresy to say something bad about poosy paradise. Return on investment, or ease is the wrong metric.

And getting good game in your own culture is easier than learning a new culture and then getting good game.

It's not heresy, it's a weakly supported argument. It isn't a conspiracy, just because the anecdotes and evidence don't fall your way. I agree that poosy paradise is built and not found, but would you start your building in a swamp? Also noticed from your profile that you haven't traveled much outside the West.

I've been to both Mexico and Japan, the closest black guys get to pussy paradise. I acquitted myself well.

But exotic factor notches are one thing.
If you want regular tang in them parts, you have to put down roots and learn the language.

I already do well in the states. I've had plenty of Latina GF's and Eastern Euros (almost married the Russian). Some fresh off the boat, some Americanized. On top of the regular smorgasbord that the US offers.

After the lust pasts, you're dealing with an alien. That's really with any woman. But to keep things going, you have to learn her culture, and she has to learn yours.

This recent debate is sparked from a guy that dated a Latina and came to find out they had severely different world views.

RVF wants you to believe that shit gets better in places where you don't speak the language and know the culture?

I'll give you notches.
I'll even give you hotter chicks.

But after you've busted a nut, what then?

Are you going to be like some of the more successful players and double down and learn the language and culture?

You're making that much of an investment, uprooting your life, because?...

Even with that, as I and many have discovered - a chick is still gonna chick. She's still going to what unnecessary shit, still going to try and test you - being with any woman is a trial. At least if you understand her psychology you know what to do to have her chasing you, pleasing you, helping you, instead of the typical situation where you're racking your brain to keep her happy so you get some peace and quiet.

When you don't know her culture and how she thinks?

So I think the RVF fantasy of flying into some 3rd world industrial shit hole, and cleaning up on 10's for a few months, and then finding some unsophisticated village girl to bear his children- whilst he keeps her at home locked away - is dumb as shit.

Bang trips are cool, don't get me wrong.
And meeting girls from different cultures gives you perspective.
And grass may be greener, but that's because the shit's more potent.

These Brazilian broads will get you hemmed up just like an American chick. No broad is a "lay down", especially not an attractive one.

Sergei knows that Olga's shit stinks. Red Pill Chad is clueless at best, delusional at worst.

(04-13-2016 02:07 PM)262 Wrote:  Return on investment is the wrong metric? Be right back guys, I'm going to implement "Compliment and Cuddle," since the results I get for my effort don't matter. I'm also going to major in feminist dance therapy, since again, the results I get for my effort don't matter.

Oh cause that's clearly what I said.

If a guy goes abroad because he's tired of the US, because he enjoys another culture/other cultures, because he wants a specific type of girl that there aren't too many of - that's one thing.

If he gets on a plane because he can't deal with a skinny 21 year old spouting SJW-ism of the week - his game is horrible.

There are colleges all over this country, it wouldn't take more than a month to figure out that scene and bed a co-ed. And when she has an opinion about transgender bathrooms, change the topic of conversation.

After dating a string of Eastern Euros, I have no idea when any American would think that they're somehow above the fray. They might want to stay home and take care of the kids...but they also want expensive shoes, nice card, and some side dick. That's what they did at home, and what they do here. (I grabbed my 2nd one off the next dude)

And Latinas? Jariel already dropped the knowledge on the Potemkin village.

Women are women everywhere.

Now if you live in Utah and you like sistas, well that's one thing. My favorite type of chicks aren't in abundance here, so I have to travel to see em. If I wanted some mid 20's blonde tang, I could head down to the college part of town on a Friday, or holler at chicks on my lunch break. There here, and they're begging to be talked to.

But going to Belarus or Borneo or Bolivia because the chicks are easier, SOLELY because you get some sort of exotic value is wrong headed.

(04-13-2016 01:49 PM)WestIndianArchie Wrote:  

(04-13-2016 11:25 AM)262 Wrote:  Game is necessary everywhere, but it's not a magic bullet.

Game is applied psychology and men applying psychology is what runs the world.

Trying to bag women is a small part of a greater whole.

WIA

Agree, which is why you want to maximize your return on investment with women, so you can apply more of your Game to the other parts of that greater whole.

Or is it heresy to say Game is not a magic bullet?
[/quote]

How do you apply Western Style Game in a place that doesn't have the same cultural cues.

You have to invest in learning that culture.

If you just run English game in Istanbul, who can you really get at? The Westernized chicks that you're trying to get away from.

Good convo so far

WIA