If they would just fight half as hard for peace in their countries as they fight to get to Europe, the world would be a better place.

(03-13-2016 01:56 PM)Parzival Wrote:  AfD did quite well. Not enough to gain power. It would be not good to gain power for them because they are a new party. Now they can gain experience and use it for the next state elections and the federal election.
When the borders stay close, the status quo hold on, maybe the AfD will not gain any more votes. Or they blow each other up because they are a new political party with all kind of people. But you can see, many people disagree with the refugee politics. About the Greens in Baden Württemberg, the more local you go, the more the person matter, not the political party. The Greens did quite well in BW and did not crash the state when they got into power 2011. Even more, the leader Kretschmann is one of the few realistic greens out there that is often against his party politics. Just an explanation why the Greens could keep strong in BW.

These election results do send a message, but do they really deter the entrenched political class? Or will the political class merely-double down and start hating "the Evil right-wing racists" even more? I'm going with the latter. Look at how Trump is blamed for BLM violence in Chicago.

The elites merely view these elections as a warning sign: Act faster before the jig is up. Act while you still have total power. Crush potential challengers quickly. Get more voters imported ASAP.

AFD did about as good as you might expect for Germany. It's the best that could be reasonably hoped for.

Another first, preliminary test passed, I guess.

Brexit vote is going to matter much more.

Posting live from Brussels.

It's amazing. I'd say that a solid parity of the people here (excluding obvious tourists) are obviously from muslim-associated ethnicities. Of those a noticeable chunk, of varying proportion depending on where you are, give off a noticeably hooligan vibe. For what it's worth, meaning not much, I see more of the native girls with dark colored boyfriends than white....sad state and I blame the native men for not being able to compete.

Place is still hella fun to visit though and the restaurants are fantastic.

(03-13-2016 04:47 PM)Easy_C Wrote:  Posting live from Brussels.

It's amazing. I'd say that a solid parity of the people here (excluding obvious tourists) are obviously from muslim-associated ethnicities. Of those a noticeable chunk, of varying proportion depending on where you are, give off a noticeably hooligan vibe. For what it's worth, meaning not much, I see more of the native girls with dark colored boyfriends than white....sad state and I blame the native men for not being able to compete.

Place is still hella fun to visit though and the restaurants are fantastic.

In large cities anywhere in the globe you will always see more race mixing from natives with foreign men than you would see anywhere else in the country. There is a selection factor at work: women who want foreign men go to large cities to meet them.

There are also districts where race mixing is more common.

So Turkey is going further into violence as I knew it would. They're bombing Kurds in Iraq too, and somehow we're going to have an Islamic country in the European Union?

Fiction becomes reality.

Check out this article.

http://www.dw.com/en/finding-love-in-ger...a-19113974

This German woman says all refugees should have a German girlfriend. So, a million + German girls gone to refugees, what does that leave for the native Germans?

Refugee fucks, Germans buck...

Quote:Lena, who is 30 and studying for a PhD in political science

Quote:Lena, who had not had a steady boyfriend for six years.

Quote:Lena says every refugee should have a German girlfriend, to help them get things done. "I come from a privileged background,” says Lena. "I know that. My father is a surgeon, and my mother is a physician. We had a house in Miami. I lived for a while in New Zealand. I fully expected I would marry someone from a similar background. I never imagined I would fall in love with someone like Ali."

This is for sure the women that complains that she don't find a man and then fall for a "refugee". For a German man, its hard to top her privileged background, but with a low class refugee the fall for the cage man game. They are "real", true and wild. I hear you Lena...

(03-13-2016 05:35 PM)Parzival Wrote:  Refugee fucks, Germans buck...

Quote:Lena, who is 30 and studying for a PhD in political science

Quote:Lena, who had not had a steady boyfriend for six years.

Quote:Lena says every refugee should have a German girlfriend, to help them get things done. "I come from a privileged background,” says Lena. "I know that. My father is a surgeon, and my mother is a physician. We had a house in Miami. I lived for a while in New Zealand. I fully expected I would marry someone from a similar background. I never imagined I would fall in love with someone like Ali."

This is for sure the women that complains that she don't find a man and then fall for a "refugee". For a German man, its hard to top her privileged background, but with a low class refugee the fall for the cage man game. They are "real", true and wild. I hear you Lena...

It's 'caveman game' Parzival ;-) but I agree with where you're coming from. Basically she didn't run into one German fella who was able to give her pussy the tingles. Not surprised really. Here in Spain I see young German tourists all the time - they're 6'2''+ (what are they putting into the food in N. Europe??) and pretty skinny. Very good looking many of them but I always see them in groups or alone. If they're with a girl she's usually average looking or below what I would consider his SMV. Which leads me to conclude that the current crop of young Germany men just don't have any game. And how could they - having been raised in a feminized society that emasculates young boys and demonizes masculinity.

I only banged one german girl but she was always saying "Why can't German guys be more like you." I suppose the be more like me part refers to a certain aggressiveness I put in display before and during the deed. She said most of them were so soft and unmanly and would never talk or deal with her like I did. No bash to our german members that are surely above average in every of these regards. Just what she told me.

(03-13-2016 03:40 PM)Samseau Wrote:  The elites merely view these elections as a warning sign: Act faster before the jig is up. Act while you still have total power. Crush potential challengers quickly. Get more voters imported ASAP.

^^^^ THIS EXACTLY.

If you guys recall - I predicted the results of today's election right here several weeks ago. YES, they gained a bit of power in some of the right leaning hotbeds. But in two states they are barely scraping over 10%. NOT enough for a referendum against Merkel's open door policies. In Baden-Württemberg 85 PERCENT VOTED AGAINST THE AFD. IN Rheinland-Pfalz 87% VOTED AGAiNST THE AFT. And in Sachsen-Anhalt about 75% VOTED AGAINST THE AFD.

And that AFTER 1 Million migrants had been funneled into the country. AFTER the mass rapes/assaults of women and an explosion in crime and street violence across the country. After today, if you are a German citizen critical of the multi-kulti Islamification of your country then there is but one solution available to you at this point: GET THE FUCK OUT OF GERMANY! Start learning another language NOW! If you stay you will not only prolong your suffering and your unhappiness, but you will also lose valuable years during which you could have made valuable contacts abroad and worked on getting established somewhere else.

GERMANY IS LOST. Act now or years from you will find yourself witnessing the systematic metamorphosis of your homeland into a civil war torn medieval Islamic hellhole.

(03-13-2016 05:27 PM)Slay it Forward Wrote:  Check out this article.

http://www.dw.com/en/finding-love-in-ger...a-19113974

This German woman says all refugees should have a German girlfriend. So, a million + German girls gone to refugees, what does that leave for the native Germans?

Southeast Asia and Latin America. Blonde hair blue eyes will always be in demand in these places, no matter how beta.

(03-13-2016 05:27 PM)Slay it Forward Wrote:  Check out this article.

http://www.dw.com/en/finding-love-in-ger...a-19113974

This German woman says all refugees should have a German girlfriend. So, a million + German girls gone to refugees, what does that leave for the native Germans?

(03-13-2016 05:35 PM)Parzival Wrote:  Refugee fucks, Germans buck...

Quote:Lena, who is 30 and studying for a PhD in political science

Quote:Lena, who had not had a steady boyfriend for six years.

Quote:Lena says every refugee should have a German girlfriend, to help them get things done. "I come from a privileged background,” says Lena. "I know that. My father is a surgeon, and my mother is a physician. We had a house in Miami. I lived for a while in New Zealand. I fully expected I would marry someone from a similar background. I never imagined I would fall in love with someone like Ali."

This is for sure the women that complains that she don't find a man and then fall for a "refugee". For a German man, its hard to top her privileged background, but with a low class refugee the fall for the cage man game. They are "real", true and wild. I hear you Lena...

It's hard to convey the repugnance and contempt I have for this woman and others like her.

(03-13-2016 05:27 PM)Slay it Forward Wrote:  Check out this article.

http://www.dw.com/en/finding-love-in-ger...a-19113974

Quote:Lena* was at the station with a small group of women posted at the "Welcome Refugees" stand, and anxious with anticipation.

You know, from a certain point of view I understand that.
In any given population there's just a certain percentage of people, men and women, that's xenophile.
Let me tell you, if suddenly there was a few million Japanese, Russian and Colombian girls migrating to Europe seeking for asylum, I would drop everything, get a sleeping bag, move to the next border crossing or railway station, and start to write my "Welcome!" and "No borders!" signs.
And so would every other guy I know.
The current situation is unfortunately just the other way around, with millions of those dark, rugged and mysterious Southerners with their heartbreaking chick crack stories trying to come here.
It's a giant shit test, and so far European men have failed.

Quote:One morning she brought a large bag of pastries to LaGeSo, and watched in amazement as the IT engineer from Baghdad gave most of them away to hungry refugees waiting outside the processing tents.

Bet she never watched in amazement as a German guy filled out his tax statement.

Quote:Last year 1.1 million refugees arrived here.
The majority of asylum applications in Germany the year before were from men. And most of those were, like Ali, under 30.

What, I thought it was all families, women and children?
Which evil villain fed wrong information to the poor, innocent media?

Quote:The easiest way to turn refugees into Germans might be for them to fall in love with Germans and marry them.

Quote:"My friends could all see that I was beaming when I walked into a room,” recalls Lena, who had not had a steady boyfriend for six years. "So I told them I was in love. They cautioned me against it. They said he was a Muslim, and that it was different, that you didn't know what you were getting into. They said, 'Maybe he just wants to marry you so he can stay here.'"

Miss Damaged Goods has some damn good friends, that's a surprise.

Quote:Ali had hidden out in dingy basements, negotiated deals with shady middlemen, risked his life on a crowded rubber boat,and survived his three-week odyssey on the Balkan route. But he was fully unprepared for the rituals of Western love.

He spent his first night with Lena in bed with his clothes on. "We woke up, and she wanted to kiss me, but I told her I can't,” he says. "In Iraq, we don't go out with women unless we are going to marry them.”

#JeanJacquesRousseau #NobleSavage

Quote:Ali had a girlfriend from the university in Baghdad for five years, and never as much as kissed her. "It's a different culture, you can't compare,” he says as he waves his hand dismissively. It took four years before he could meet his Iraqi girlfriend's parents, and then, it was only to discuss marriage.

I wonder Ali, what ever happened to that lovely girl, I'm curious?
Left her to die in Iraq? It's a Murder-Death-Kill zone after all, right?

Quote:By contrast he met Lena's parents after only four weeks, and shortly after that, he was drinking sparkling German wine and helping them trim the Christmas tree for the holidays in a city in western Germany's Ruhr Valley. Lena's family is enraptured by Ali, and sees the pair's love is real. Grandma gave them an envelope with some cash for Christmas with the words "Truth Love” scrawled in English on the front. Her father cooks with Ali; the two of them go to soccer games together.

Incredible, the whole family is cucked!
If a girl in my family would pull off something similar, she would be disowned. I know that, because it actually happened.
And that guy was only an Italian mobster, not a Muslim gimmegrant.
Damn, I love my family.

Quote:He says all refugees from the Middle East he knows believe German women are unclean, because society here does not prohibit sexual activities before marriage. His father and family in Baghdad share that view. Not Ali: "To me, what matters is that I know the girl, and that I trust her. That's all."

Ah, sweet irony.
If only you knew, Ali, if only you knew.
Wouldn't it be nice to see if your tolerance would still outweigh your pride and disgust?
That is, if you really care about gullible Lena.
What's "the end justifies the means" in Arabic?
Maybe Ali is not the only one who's in for a rude awakening.

Quote:Lena says every refugee should have a German girlfriend, to help them get things done.

(03-13-2016 05:17 AM)GlobalMan Wrote:  

(03-11-2016 04:13 PM)Dalaran1991 Wrote:  

(03-11-2016 01:55 PM)rudebwoy Wrote:  300,000.00 muslim immigrants heading to America.

http://freedomoutpost.com/house-republic...-migrants/

I dont get riled up by anything anymore, but there's simply no end to this shit. I remembered leaving USA partly because of the whole H1B visas shit and how "there's no way we will increase the H1B cap". Now out of nowhere they suddenly make 300,000 spots for fucking Muslims??????????

Also another thing to ask my American bro. When shit got bad but not at the civil war level, just how much can you defend yourself? You have guns but you are not allowed to use it on people realistically. I remembered my cops sensei told me if you ever have to shoot you better damn well kill the bastard so you can justify it with "my life was in danger" line. If he isn't dead prepared to face a mountain of lawsuit charges for overuse of force in self-defense.

I really doubt if you get jumped by a bunch of migrants you can really just pull your guns and blaze away, given how militant the Americunts SJW are.

Any of you here actually used a gun in self defense? How did that work out?

It's fairly straight forward, in general. If you are in legitimate danger of death or great bodily harm you can use lethal force to defend yourself. There are various different stipulations and varying regional laws, circumstances, but thats the basic standard most everywhere. It's up to the carrier to educate themselves on the law and make the right decisions.

You can't just use a gun in "self defense" any time you need to defend yourself- it's when your life is on the line. I think a lot of non Americans don't quite understand that. Vast majority of carriers take this very seriously. There isn't cowboy stuff going on.

So no, you can't just go around pulling guns anytime someone looks at you sidways. But yes, you certainly can defend yourself when justified. Legal self defense shootings happen every day.

About frequency- As per a CDC study, hundreds of thousands of people use firearms in self defense each year- most without ever having to fire a shot. Many millions of people have been saved by carrying a firearm. Many never report it, the numbers are likely even larger.

Not only can they be used in self defense, but in the defense of others (a few states I think don't allow this), this just happened in my old hood this morning (at 5am in the godamn morning):
Hatchet-swinging attacker shot and killed by customer at 7-11
The King County Sheriff’s investigators say the customer who shot the man appears to have done nothing wrong, and they are happy he was there to intervene.

King County Sheriff’s Sergeant Cindi West Wrote:Fortunately, because of this customer with his weapon, this could have been a lot worse,"
“The clerk could be the one laying there dead on the floor right now."

In some areas the law says if you get jumped by a bunch of people, then your life is in danger, ok to use a gun to get out of danger.

I would love to see the reverse happen somewhere in the Western world, preferably here in Canada, to see what the reaction of the women would be. Imagine over a million slavic women pouring into Canada in one year. Fuck that would be awesome. There's a war going on in Ukraine. Why can't all the women come here?

(03-13-2016 06:53 PM)LEMONed IScream Wrote:  I only banged one german girl but she was always saying "Why can't German guys be more like you." I suppose the be more like me part refers to a certain aggressiveness I put in display before and during the deed. She said most of them were so soft and unmanly and would never talk or deal with her like I did. No bash to our german members that are surely above average in every of these regards. Just what she told me.

I had girls from different countries say that to me too. Most women look down on the local men. If you go out and be aggressive like she demand and want it in foreign men, you don't gain points. You are an aggressive macho, a perv, a creep, an asshole, a sexist. What is ok for a foreign guy or a immigrant is not ok for a German.
German women put on this extreme frame of be independent and strong. You have to be like they want you, that you are aggressive in some points but respect her in others, when she want it. Germans in general seek almost perfection when they look for a partner. High and even more unrealistic expectations.

But in general I agree. Feminisation made the German men wimpy.

(03-13-2016 05:35 PM)Parzival Wrote:  Refugee fucks, Germans buck...

Quote:Lena, who is 30 and studying for a PhD in political science

Quote:Lena, who had not had a steady boyfriend for six years .

Quote:Lena says every refugee should have a German girlfriend, to help them get things done. "I come from a privileged background,” says Lena. "I know that. My father is a surgeon, and my mother is a physician. We had a house in Miami. I lived for a while in New Zealand. I fully expected I would marry someone from a similar background. I never imagined I would fall in love with someone like Ali."

This is for sure the women that complains that she don't find a man and then fall for a "refugee". For a German man, its hard to top her privileged background, but with a low class refugee the fall for the cage man game. They are "real", true and wild. I hear you Lena...

We have to understand that, for this kind of women (Western, 30+, damaged), importing Cavemen-"refugees" is both a huge gift and a sweet revenge.

Huge gift because it delivers right to their doorsteps millions of hungry dicks, dicks not too picky about whom they fuck (rapefugees will fuck anything between 7 and 57 years old).

Sweet revenge, because they know that Western men go abroad (SEA...) for "easy" and quality pussy, so now, it's their turn to fuck and wander "into" other races.

To sum it up: The rapefugees invasion is every ugly German woman's (Merkel's also of course) revenge for Thailand. Their revenge on Western men who refuse to fuck their fat, entitled and ugly asses.

When a German man reject a German women and take an Latin or SEA women you get something like this:

   

When a German women take a Foreigner, you mostly get something like this:
   

I stopped very long to pay attention to the strange behaviour of German women. That German get soft and wimpy is one point. The other is, many just stop to deal with the bullshit and look somewhere else.

How's the attitude in Southern Europe, especially Italy? They as cucked over there?

(03-14-2016 02:36 AM)Parzival Wrote:  

(03-13-2016 06:53 PM)LEMONed IScream Wrote:  I only banged one german girl but she was always saying "Why can't German guys be more like you." I suppose the be more like me part refers to a certain aggressiveness I put in display before and during the deed. She said most of them were so soft and unmanly and would never talk or deal with her like I did. No bash to our german members that are surely above average in every of these regards. Just what she told me.

I had girls from different countries say that to me too. Most women look down on the local men. If you go out and be aggressive like she demand and want it in foreign men, you don't gain points. You are an aggressive macho, a perv, a creep, an asshole, a sexist. What is ok for a foreign guy or a immigrant is not ok for a German.
German women put on this extreme frame of be independent and strong. You have to be like they want you, that you are aggressive in some points but respect her in others, when she want it. Germans in general seek almost perfection when they look for a partner. High and even more unrealistic expectations.

But in general I agree. Feminisation made the German men wimpy.

I was talking with Going Strong over this the other day. It's not about caveman game or all local men acting like pussies. The thing is, if a white or even Asian guy starts acting all gangster and grabbing girls, off to the police with you. While a black/brown illegal can just grope a girl, kiss her and she wouldn't even resist. You see this happen all the time in Paris night clubs. Africans and muslims who don't even speak French just pull the girls over, grind and grab their boobs and they do nothing, while some bold white guys (rare) I spotted did the same thing and got yelled at. Kudos for the guys to laugh it off, but still.

If you are looking for conquering, quickie sex there's no better time to be an arabic speaking brute than now in Germany. The white guys eventually "win" out in the long terms in dating and realationship but they are still picking up trashed soiled by a thug.

I say let them rotten bitches have their fun with the migrants. After being used and dumped they will become the feminist cunts who scream "stop oppression by white men" anyway, at which point no one not even other women take them seriously and no man would look at them at anything more than a dumpster.

It's just a recipe for frustration and unhappiness in life. Shame that they are so solipsistic they can't even recognize their own doom.

(03-13-2016 03:40 PM)Samseau Wrote:  

(03-13-2016 01:56 PM)Parzival Wrote:  AfD did quite well. Not enough to gain power. It would be not good to gain power for them because they are a new party. Now they can gain experience and use it for the next state elections and the federal election.
When the borders stay close, the status quo hold on, maybe the AfD will not gain any more votes. Or they blow each other up because they are a new political party with all kind of people. But you can see, many people disagree with the refugee politics. About the Greens in Baden Württemberg, the more local you go, the more the person matter, not the political party. The Greens did quite well in BW and did not crash the state when they got into power 2011. Even more, the leader Kretschmann is one of the few realistic greens out there that is often against his party politics. Just an explanation why the Greens could keep strong in BW.

These election results do send a message, but do they really deter the entrenched political class? Or will the political class merely-double down and start hating "the Evil right-wing racists" even more? I'm going with the latter. Look at how Trump is blamed for BLM violence in Chicago.

The elites merely view these elections as a warning sign: Act faster before the jig is up. Act while you still have total power. Crush potential challengers quickly. Get more voters imported ASAP.

Yep, like I said, Merkel DOUBLES DOWN

http://abcnews.go.com/International/wire...s-37625524

Merkel Sticks to Migrant Course After German State Elections

Quote:Chancellor Angela Merkel said Monday she would stick to her course in Europe's migrant crisis following state elections that sent conflicting signals about Germans' opinion of her liberal approach and highlighted divisions in her conservative bloc.

Merkel acknowledged that Sunday's three elections, which produced painful losses for her conservative Christian Democratic Union, were dominated by the migrant issue and many voters believed there is "no conclusive and satisfactory solution."

However, "I am firmly convinced, and that wasn't questioned today, that we need a European solution and that this solution needs time," Merkel said after party leaders met in Berlin.

The nationalist, anti-migration Alternative for Germany, or AfD, powered into three state legislatures after campaigning against Merkel's welcome for last year's huge influx of migrants.

That made clear a sizeable minority is uneasy about Merkel's policies. AfD attracted people who didn't previously vote, and took votes from established parties.

But many viewed the overall outcome as a sign of support for her approach.

Gero Neugebauer, a political scientist at Berlin's Free University, said that Merkel's "refugee policy was supported by the majority of voters," even if they ended up voting for other parties.

Merkel's CDU lost two states it had hoped to win back from center-left incumbents. They included Baden-Wuerttemberg, an economic powerhouse and longtime conservative stronghold where the CDU embarrassingly finished second behind the left-leaning Greens.

Victory there went to governors who often sounded more enthusiastic about her migrant policy than Merkel's own candidates — whose poll ratings slid after they tried last month to put cautious distance between themselves and the chancellor by calling for daily refugee quotas. That came on top of months of attacks from Merkel's allies in Bavaria's Christian Social Union, who want a national cap on refugee numbers.

"The central reason (for the losses) is refugee policy — there is no point in talking past it," said Bavarian governor Horst Seehofer, Merkel's most prominent internal critic of recent months. He called the results a "political earthquake."

"The answer to the population after such an election result cannot be that everything continues as it was," he added.

Merkel appeared unmoved, disputing Seehofer's contention that the conservative bloc faces an "existential" threat from AfD's rise and reiterating that she can't go into negotiations with Turkey on stemming the migrant flow with a national refugee limit. She added that differences between the CDU and Seehofer's CSU are "always hard to bear" for conservative voters.

"It is good that there is approval from society as a whole but ... I would like my party, the CDU and CSU as a whole, to discuss such questions in great unity," she said.

Merkel insisted last year that "we will manage" the challenge of integrating migrants, and Germany registered nearly 1.1 million people as asylum-seekers. While her government has tightened asylum rules, she still insists on a pan-European solution to the migrant crisis, ignoring demands for unilateral national measures.

The largely liberal rhetoric remains in place, but other countries' border closures have lately reduced the migrant flow to a trickle and Merkel has made clear she doesn't plan to bring to Germany refugees now stuck in Greece. Still, she has criticized the unilateral border closures, and said Monday "you can see every day from the photos from Greece that the solution isn't so sustainable yet."

Saxony-Anhalt's conservative governor Reiner Haseloff, who won Sunday's election in his eastern state but saw AfD finish in second place, pointed to New Year's Eve assaults in Cologne blamed largely on foreigners as a turning point for that party's ratings. "We saw on New Year's Eve what parallel societies look like, and that influenced a great many people in Saxony-Anhalt," he said.

Neugebauer said "doubts will persist in parts of her own party" over Merkel's approach. But after Sunday's results, "a discussion will start in the CDU as to whether it's worth agitating against Merkel on refugee policy — and it won't happen, because they know they will lose."

That gives Merkel some security, he said, but in order to calm her party and reduce AfD's support she will need to redouble efforts at home to better manage integration and accommodation of refugees.

AfD now has seats in half of Germany's 16 state legislatures and the European Parliament.

It now has its sights set on entering the national parliament in an election expected late next year. If it can establish itself as a long-term force, that will leave Germany with a six-party system — compared with three in the 1970s — making it ever-tougher to form governments.

Asked about his party's future course, AfD deputy leader Alexander Gauland said Monday: "I favor very clear and hard opposition, for a long time yet."

Merkel gives zero fucks... if things blow up in Greece she will use the crisis to import another million or three. And the odds of things blowing up are extremely high right now because these Muzzies know the bigger a scene they cause the more likely Germany will step in to open borders again.

Cowboy, as a Southern European. Absolutely not. There are stark differences regarding how Catholic/Orthodox deal with this sort of things when compared to the other Protestant countries. The only relevant blemish in the so far pretty acceptable southern european response has been the Papacy, Francis is an embarrassment to Christianity.

The (pseudo)refugee morons have left the Idomeni camp and have entered Macedonia through a (shallow) river not protected by a fence. The Greek police and the Macedonians were unable to stop them so far (it appears so, there is not enough clear information).


I hope they get beaten up and send back.

Incidentally, this will unmask the powerlessness of the politicians. A nation that cannot defend its border integrity is no nation at all. Yet the USA has not collapsed over this issue (it should have) so I am not having high hopes.

I like how the media is calling it a dangerous river even though the water is only knee high. I guess kiddie pools and big puddles are highly dangerous too.