Post: #1351

(01-01-2016 10:34 AM)JordanH Wrote:  This was my goal for 2015. I lasted a while, almost two months before I caved but since then I drank heavier and more frequently before from March to end of Nov. Cut back significantly in December (i.e. christmas) and for January going to do the full 12 months.

It is an inconvenient expense where the money could be going towards better things. Example a new apartment I'm considering moving to as well as improving the quality of food that I've been eating.

Great reading your story above Monxp! Pretty inspiring stuff.

Good luck to all of those doing this this year!

JordanH, is January 1 your start date?

Post: #1352

Here's my official opt in. January 1, 2016 for the full year.

Post: #1353

(01-01-2016 11:49 PM)TheGreatBambino Wrote:  Here's my official opt in. January 1, 2016 for the full year.

Awesome. Welcome back aboard as of January 1, 2016 and I look forward to hearing more from you here as the wagon year rolls on.

Post: #1354

It's pretty easy to go out and stay sober because there's very little attention to you. But as I've said before, I struggle with sober dating. Thus questions for the more experienced wagoners:
With women under 30, would you have greater or fewer notches if you drank on dates?

Are my struggles a result of weak inner game or her inability to loosen up?... Or a combination of both? With practice, have you gotten over this hump and actually benefited from sobriety in a one on one situation?

It's a strange curiosity for me since I'm not really at a point in my life where tons of notches make me happy... quantity simply isn't important so long as minimum quota is met. If history is an indicator, I may fall short of said quota.

I know there's quite a bit of information on sober dating in this thread, but I don't think this specific question has been adequately answered.

Post: #1355

TGB, like you say this subject has been addressed in some good posts earlier in the thread, so it's really worth going back and reading some of them. Here is what I would say:

First, the wagon applies to you; it doesn't apply to the girl you're with on a date. There is no reason she can't have a couple of glasses of wine to relax and loosen up. Let her order her wine, you get your club soda with lime or whatever you like, and if she asks about it tell her you're not drinking. You don't need to act shy about it, and you don't need to make a big deal out of it. So the problem of "her inability to loosen up" should really not be a problem.

Second, as far as your own ability to feel relaxed on a date goes, it's simply a matter of habit like anything else. At first, if you're used to relying on drinks to get you in the mood, it may be a little difficult and it may cost you some notches as a result. But if you persevere you'll get the hang of it -- and having to figure out how to relax and interact with a girl without relying on being buzzed will only improve your game and make you better at it. So it's a matter of sacrificing some results in the short term but getting better at it over the longer term.

In addition, you should realize that being drunk or buzzed doesn't actually make you better at game, as such, meaning, it doesn't make you more observant, or inventive, or attractive; the main thing it does is lower your inhibitions. Of course, for some guys who are naturally shy or introverted, their inhibitions are the main barrier to them getting laid, and learning to lower them without recourse to alcohol can be a struggle. But it's a struggle very much worth going through because if you can learn how to relax and be less inhibited and more aggressive while stone cold sober, you will have learned something that will serve you extremely well in life in general (including your career and social interactions, and just your overall ability to enjoy life). And there is no deadlier player than someone who can be relaxed, at ease, and appropriately aggressive, while stone cold sober.

Finally, if and when you actually get a girl into the sack (which is the ostensible point of the whole exercise, lest we forget), that is when you will benefit in the most radical way from your sobriety. There is simply no comparison between fucking while sober and fucking while drunk -- the former is so vastly superior and more intense of an experience that it alone more than makes up for the added difficulties of getting there. If you have a nice girl with a banging body, you want to be able to relish every moment of that body being disclosed before you, and you want to stick your hardest dick in her and FEEL it. So many drunken "notches" are near worthless, semi-soft, and indifferent affairs, little more than a ramshackle five minute bridge between booze and sleep. You can say that you have the notch but what's the point if you barely feel it and barely remember it the next day? But if and when you get that girl into bed when you are stone cold sober -- and she is lightly and profitably buzzed -- you will be hungry for her every curve and hole, and you will discharge your wagon rage and wagon libido on her. That alone will be worth enduring all the joys and terrors of the wagon dates whose prospect seems so chilling to you at the moment.

Post: #1356

(01-02-2016 07:56 PM)TheGreatBambino Wrote:  It's pretty easy to go out and stay sober because there's very little attention to you. But as I've said before, I struggle with sober dating. Thus questions for the more experienced wagoners:
With women under 30, would you have greater or fewer notches if you drank on dates?

Are my struggles a result of weak inner game or her inability to loosen up?... Or a combination of both? With practice, have you gotten over this hump and actually benefited from sobriety in a one on one situation?

I'm not a sober dating vet but maybe my experiences will be helpful.

I'm currently on my 31st day of sobriety but first started this journey back in the summer while in Brazil.

I'll start by saying I probably attracted a higher class of girl BECAUSE I didn't drink. During this time I was mainly running online game and I got matched up with some nice girls, avoiding the typical party girl. I went on 7 sober dates, all 25 or younger who didn't drink or said they usually drink very little.

The only one who mentioned wanting to drink during the date was my repeat from the year prior. I was OK with going to the bar but she didn't mention it again after I said how I wasn't drinking anymore. Instead she was curious about it because I had drank quite a bit with her the year prior so we hung out in my hotel room talking about my decision and why instead of going to the bar. I was upfront about it, calm in my delivery in a matter of fact way and she was impressed with my commitment to improving myself. In fact every girl I mentioned it to was ultimately impressed by my decision and I think sobriety may have helped to separate me from other men in their mind. In that regard I found it to be a positive conversational topic.

The dates themselves tended to be quicker and much cheaper with less interruptions from waiters, bathroom breaks or other drunks in near proximity. We drank juice or soda instead of beer and never stayed in one place very long like many drinking sessions tend to.

Regarding the lays I would say sober dates didn't have a negative effect at all. Minus my repeat I had 4 SNL's and 1 second date lay (She brought her 5 year old kid on the 1st date without notice, WTF???). The 4 SNL's all had my cock inside them within 2 hours so no problems escalating sober. The remaining date was with a typical brain-dead college student with no personality and no life experiences so no chemistry there, I also thought she may have had a sore on her lip so I didn't even try.

I do remember one date where in the beginning I was thinking man this isn't going well and I normally would have relied on some liquid courage but I maintained a calm composure and 45 minutes later I was fucking her doggy-style so I guess it wasn't going that bad Perhaps in this instance I wouldn't have been thinking as clearly and wouldn't have recovered the date, who knows.

Overall the dates were pleasant and relaxed until I amped up the physical component. These particular girls were calm and enjoyable to be around. I would say the dates were centered more on our interactions together, possibly more intense as well. I felt more focused during the dates. Could be an anomaly but I saw these girls for a second time more than usual as well.

Regarding your dates inability to loosen up I would think maybe that's related to your game or how your structuring the date, but I'm certainly no expert. Or maybe they have a drinking problem or poor self-worth and need the alcohol to cope??? --- I just reread your post and the comment insinuating you struggle with the increased attention from a date makes me think your inner game could use some improvement.

Thinking about these dates I tend to move in a slow, relaxed and deliberate manner with a focused, intense or passionate gaze depending on the mood. Many people I meet often think I'm a cop or military man, while women often tell me they feel safe and comfortable with me. I would also think withdrawing the alcohol from the equation means removing one less perceived danger from the girl's mind (Well he's not trying to get me blackout drunk in order to take advantage of me).

Sober dates are cheaper, quicker and imo will improve your game at a faster rate. No issues with driving or making a fool of yourself by drinking too much either. I'm a fan of sober dates and don't think they've been negative to my notch count.

In fact my 2nd date lay was an early morning before college class date which would never have happened if I was out drinking late the night before

Post: #1357

How was the holiday season for everyone? Mine was filled with both joy and family illness, and plenty of excuses to drink. But I persevered. What I learned is that if someone wants to drink, they'll find a reason, and truth be told, there's never a good reason. Somehow people think drinking is good for a person when they're already in an emotionally fragile state. Anyway, stay strong gents.

Post: #1358

It was probably the best Christmas I've had since a kid. I never realized most of my family wasn't drinking much over the holidays. Spent more quality time with my nephew and nieces instead of focusing on what my next drink would be.

I did almost eat a rum ball by accident last night watching football though. Who brings desserts over and doesn't mention some of them are spiked? I would've been pissed if I was towards the end of my wagon and accidentally ate one. And they were so small there couldn't have been more than a trace of alcohol in them.

Post: #1359

December 26, 2015. I'm in. Been thinking about it a lot and just want to see where some focus will take me off the the drink. I lost 30 pounds this year and added muscle but I have always been held back by alcohol. I'm getting older and I can't keep up with myself. My relationships have also suffered and my mind is not sharp. I'm ready to take the next step in my health and want to repair some family issues. I also think it steers me towards the wrong girls and I won't even mention the financial impact. Doing this in Russia will be a serious challenge, but I welcome it.

Post: #1360

WashedUPVet, thank you for the post and welcome aboard as of December 26, 2015. Hope to hear more from you on this thread as time goes on.

As far as Russia goes, it is of course an intense drinking culture but because of that they also have the phenomenon of serious alcoholics who decide not to drink again (temporarily or permanently). So it is not something that would be completely incomprehensible to them.

Post: #1361

I've recently realised that after around two days without drinking I become increasingly aggressive and irritable. Only haven't noticed in the past because I'll usually have around 2-3 beers daily. It's been only three days without a drink currently and I feel like ripping someone's throat out... feeling twitchy/ jumpy... very out of character for me.

I'm only 23 years old... so quitting drinking seems like it would have more of a negative impact (socially) on my life than positive... thoughts?

Post: #1362

I'm 22 and I know if can, at first, seem to have an impact, especially when everyone around you is in party mode weekend nights. This will hurt people who rely on night game more. Getting your day game strong is a good way around it. I usually meet girls during the day, set up a time to meet and establish rapport at a cafe, then push for the sdl or second day lay, works fine without alcohol.

Post: #1363

The company I'm consulting at has been laying people off. My vendor just told me they would like to keep me, but cut my rate. That got me a bit depressed. It's not that I won't be able to pay bills or anything like that, but it's a matter of pride. I've thought about telling them to fuck off but will probably need to bite the bullet and take the cut.

Anyway, I would normally hit the bottle but last night I hit the cookies instead. However, I dreamt last night I bought a fifth of bourbon at the liquor store. I felt bad about it in the dream but did it anyway. I didn't drink in the dream, but I did buy the bottle.

It's been 15 weeks so far and the benefits of sobriety have been enormous for me. When you read about how necessary your liver is in processing nutrients of food and how alcohol prevents that from happening it really wakes you up. Yet, when life throws a wrench I can forget all that and just yearn for escape of some kind.

I felt completely in power of this before yesterday, and now I feel like I'm walking a tightrope

Post: #1364

Don't overthink that dream.

You're having nightmares about how you would have dealt in the past. You're having negative feelings about the idea within your dream, and that's not the same type of dream you'd have if you were still subconsciously addicted.

So you're not as close to falling off as you think. But if you keep telling yourself that, you will be.

As far as the work thing, focus on solutions. What options do you have that you're not looking at now?

Remember, getting drunk is a band aid solution and actually makes it worse. Since you're in control of all your faculties, you've now got the option to look at real solutions instead.

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. To be your own man is a hard business. If you try it, you'll be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." - Rudyard Kipling

Post: #1365

(01-09-2016 09:58 AM)Onto Wrote:  I felt completely in power of this before yesterday, and now I feel like I'm walking a tightrope

Onto, the simple truth is that you have exactly as much power over this today as you did yesterday, which is complete power. After all, no one is going to force a drink down your throat.

Dismiss the tightrope analogy, it's of no use. You are always on solid ground, and you remain there. You can only fall if you choose to do so.

A part of what the wagon can teach one -- if one is willing to learn -- is that neither feelings nor dreams count for as much as they seem to. You may dream of drinking; you may feel you're on a tightrope. But the facts of the matter are that you are still on the wagon, and that you remain in complete control if you choose to exercise it. Acknowledge the dreams and the feelings; and then simply dismiss them, and keep going.

Post: #1366

My wagon broke down. Not in a spectacular way or an amusing one but simply, with two pints, a kidney pie and a scotch. And then I came home, none the visible worse for wear.

It's important to share this because, like I said before, I am using this thread as a tool in order to deal with this issue.

So what happened? Well, essentially I allowed my norms to waver. It was going well and I was feeling great. I was loving the health and the... even-ness. My best self was always accessible, even late in the night or when others had departed into this or that realm.

Last week, however, I impulse-booked a ticket down to Germany because it was cheap and I wanted to see how the Cologne carnival would go down following the events of New Year's Eve. I have been reading so much about this issue and I had began to feel as if I was absorbing too many secondhand opinions, even ideologies. I wanted to see it in the flesh.

Unfortunately, I didn't necessarily know how big a thing Cologne Carnival is. It's like a 2,000-year-old, massively extended Mardi Gras and it is by all accounts crazy, very boozy and very decadent. So subtly, in the days that followed my booking and while I read about the festival, I essentially allowed that my wagon would break while there. I internalized that and came to expect it and sort of gave it a pass. And so tonight I had dinner at the pub because, hey, it's already broken, basically...

Maybe this is something people can learn from. A slip, or even the foreknowledge of a likely slip, is a very dangerous thing for a wagon. Suddenly it all comes roaring back: the dimly lit oak of the barroom, your favourite song, that feeling of being utterly in the moment.

When I left the pub I analysed the feeling. It's a bit heavy, a bit dull, but very physical. Alcohol puts you in touch with the physical world. There is something very... analog about this intoxicant. It removes me, I now see, from the more flickery, scattered and almost enervated space of my ordinary mind. It's a throaty hum.

Ultimately I feel badly about this. Thing is, the slight effects of two pints and a whisky are in no way worth the breaking of the wagon, source of so much pride and stability. Sure, I could have gone further into that realm and made its pleasures more flamboyant, but doing so would come at such an enormous physical and mental cost.

Enormous dullness, enormous heaviness, the physical realm as a prison and not a respite...

I have ruined my progression with this little German escape I planned (and how subconscious was it, I wonder?), but I'll be back.

It is too easy to forget how comfortable a good wagon is. Because there you are inside, alone and your true self, jostled by the felt ripples of daily life with your little oil lamp swinging from the tent-pole, totally self-contained and answering to no one.

Post: #1367

richler, the Cologne Carnival is not until February 4. I take it from your post that after breaking the wagon in anticipation of this event (even though it's still weeks away), you are implicitly giving yourself a little vacation until you return from Germany, since you assume that the carnival itself will require drinks no matter what?

Here is what the spirit of the wagon -- if you were to lend an ear to such a stern and seemingly dull character -- would counsel you: restart your new 1 year wagon now; there is no time like the present. Don't act as if today's lapse necessitates or invites a longer interlude -- go hard against that sleazy instinct. And if you still feel like going to Cologne, then go, but go on the wagon. Wander like a wagoned zombie among the drunken revelers and the even more drunken "refugees" (did you know they were drunk off their asses during the events on New Year's Eve?). Take it all in, but sober as a judge; and then report back to us from that scene of somewhat more than mild depravity.

Now, the spirit of the wagon does not expect anyone to take him up on such unlikely (but, in truth, just and inspired) ideas, so I'll probably see your bloated and miserably hung over forum mug in this thread around mid February. But the realities must be stated if only for the record.

Post: #1368

Lizard, I highly respect your starting this thread and all the work you've put in but the last post is probably the only one I have really disagreed with. I am 9 months in and have been on trips and hung out in plenty of bars in this time all without too much difficulty, but I don't think I could do a big international Carnival sober or be able to resist the temptations.

The purpose of the Carnival is to drink and fuck. I have been to Trinidad Carnival and I do not know how I could have stayed at all sober. It was the most I've ever drank. People literally handing you bottle after bottle of beer. Passing rum bottles to swig from etc. It was rare that I didn't have two beers in my hands. People of that island start preparing a year in advance for it. They break up with their boyfriend and girlfriends the day before so they can fuck like savages and then get back together after. To not drink would be extremely difficult and offend many people including those you want to fuck. If the Carnival the OP is going to is anything like that I would say he should either plan on starting the wagon on Ash Wednesday or don't go to Carnival. Being 3 weeks sober and trying to stay on it is not really realistic and setting himself up for failure.

Post: #1369

scubadude, my post was an affectionate challenge to richler. I want him to realize that a single lapse in the wagon need not -- and should not -- be used as an excuse to give oneself an extended vacation; instead, you just chalk it up, shake you head -- but don't beat yourself up too much -- and restart a new 1 year wagon the next day. The carnival is really a secondary matter, and my suggestion to wander through it as a wagoned zombie is a little fanciful, for sure, although I believe that a man sufficiently animated by perverse discipline and morbid curiosity could pull it off and live to tell the tale. But indeed the most sensible course is simply to forget about it.

Post: #1370

(01-14-2016 07:56 AM)scubadude Wrote:  Lizard, I highly respect your starting this thread and all the work you've put in but the last post is probably the only one I have really disagreed with. I am 9 months in and have been on trips and hung out in plenty of bars in this time all without too much difficulty, but I don't think I could do a big international Carnival sober or be able to resist the temptations.

The purpose of the Carnival is to drink and fuck. I have been to Trinidad Carnival and I do not know how I could have stayed at all sober. It was the most I've ever drank. People literally handing you bottle after bottle of beer. Passing rum bottles to swig from etc. It was rare that I didn't have two beers in my hands. People of that island start preparing a year in advance for it. They break up with their boyfriend and girlfriends the day before so they can fuck like savages and then get back together after. To not drink would be extremely difficult and offend many people including those you want to fuck. If the Carnival the OP is going to is anything like that I would say he should either plan on starting the wagon on Ash Wednesday or don't go to Carnival. Being 3 weeks sober and trying to stay on it is not really realistic and setting himself up for failure.

Carnival can absolutely be done sober, and is actually better that way. You only think big events like this are 100% drinkers and druggers when you are drinking and drugging and seeking out the same. Don't make a big deal out of your sobriety, and neither will other people. You will also find that there are a LOT of people at any major event that stay sober. Plenty of people try alcohol or drugs, and their genetics and personality make them not want to touch it again. They are sort of the opposite end of the bell curve as me.

Also to richler and any other members or lurkers who have had a slip up on the wagon, do NOT beat yourself up about it. This is not an easy journey. Remember that we seek progress, not perfection. If you beat yourself up about it, a slip up turns into a full relapse, and that gets real ugly real quick.

Lastly, I really encourage people to try out Antabuse. It is a great medication for sobriety and does not fuck with your brain chemistry. It was discovered by accident in 1948 when researchers were testing various compounds to cure parasitic infections, and test subjects reported extreme alcohol sensitivity.

It works by inhibiting the dehydrogenase enzyme, which is what your body uses to break down acetaldehyde (alcohol converts into this in your body).

Its side effect profile, assuming you don't drink alcohol, is equivalent to a daily aspirin - almost completely harmless.

Basically you become the ultimate lightweight. Ingest even a small amount of alcohol when taking Antabuse, and in less than ten minutes you will start to experience severe hangover symptoms for hours.

All you have to do is take one pill in the morning. It has a long half life too, and maintains its effect for 1-2 weeks after cessation, so if you have a weak moment and decide not to take it one morning because you want to drink at night, guess what? You can't.

For me, Antabuse has been a life raft.

Post: #1371

Two and half months in, and this feels great.

I've lost 15+ pounds (not exclusively through getting on the wagon, but significant nevertheless).
Motivation levels are much higher, and its become easier to have a more balanced, controlled lifestyle.
And time - there is so much time now it is ridiculous how one was unable to realize how much time actually went towards the activity. In conjunction with this, most of the time from late afternoon through evening was spent looking forward to drinking. Initially after quitting, cravings were strongest through this mid-afternoon / evening time. Nowadays though, the mind is much less clouded and not focused on said activity, and is able to turn its attention to other things quite easily. This is by far the single most effective reason for continuing to stay on the wagon even on the hardest days.

That being said, there are still a few occasional pangs that are hard to get over, but these are decreasing in frequency, if not in intensity.
Breaking up like alcohol is like my first high school breakup once again.

Feels good to be young and free again.

Post: #1372

I never made an update on my challenge, but I did complete the entire year with no drinking.

I went back to partying afterwards, as some of you may have noticed already. For those of you who are thinking you may eventually do the same and are curious how that went, I wrote a blog post about it here: http://notesfrombeyond.com/self-developm...-from-here

The tl;dr version is that the outlook for pacing myself was not good. It was quickly sending me back where I started and obviously a move in the wrong direction; I miss the sober life and the pride of being a man in full control of my health and my wits.

So as of now, I just wrapped up the latest bender and am correcting course and hopping back in for another year.

By the way, do we have a thread for guys who've made it past the one year and have decided to become teetotalers as a longer-term lifestyle choice? I think that would be a good idea to discuss some of the related issues without interrupting the momentum of the challenge here. Perhaps unnecessary given that it gets easier over time but just a thought.

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. To be your own man is a hard business. If you try it, you'll be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." - Rudyard Kipling

Post: #1373

(01-06-2016 01:40 AM)Prof. Ligate Wrote:  I've recently realised that after around two days without drinking I become increasingly aggressive and irritable. Only haven't noticed in the past because I'll usually have around 2-3 beers daily. It's been only three days without a drink currently and I feel like ripping someone's throat out... feeling twitchy/ jumpy... very out of character for me.

I'm only 23 years old... so quitting drinking seems like it would have more of a negative impact (socially) on my life than positive... thoughts?

What you're not seeing quite yet, though, is that your irritability is not being caused by the fact that you're not drinking. Just the opposite, actually. You're irritable because you drank before.

Addictive substances all work the same way. You consume them, and they create a feeling of emptiness inside you after the "drug" wears off. Then the only way to fill that hole is to consume the very substance that created it in the first place. It then becomes a perpetuating cycle.

So, people think they drink to have a good time and take the edge off life. But the drinking is what creates that edge in the first place, and you had a good time plenty, while stone cold sober, when you were young before you became dependent on alcohol.

There's a simple solution that gives you the control back, though. Ignore this temporary bitterness stage. It'll pass in about a week, if not even sooner. And then you can go back to feeling the way you're naturally designed to feel.

The bitterness is an illusion, and if you choose to believe in it, you fall back into the trap.

For more on this idea, read the Allen Carr book mentioned throughout this thread. Glimpsing the true nature of what's going on creates a truly powerful paradigm shift that can easily carry you through.

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. To be your own man is a hard business. If you try it, you'll be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." - Rudyard Kipling

Post: #1374

(01-16-2016 06:55 AM)Beyond Borders Wrote:  I never made an update on my challenge, but I did complete the entire year with no drinking.

I went back to partying afterwards, as some of you may have noticed already. For those of you who are thinking you may eventually do the same and are curious how that went, I wrote a blog post about it here: http://notesfrombeyond.com/self-developm...-from-here

The tl;dr version is that the outlook for pacing myself was not good. It was quickly sending me back where I started and obviously a move in the wrong direction; I miss the sober life and the pride of being a man in full control of my health and my wits.

So as of now, I just wrapped up the latest bender and am correcting course and hopping back in for another year.

By the way, do we have a thread for guys who've made it past the one year and have decided to become teetotalers as a longer-term lifestyle choice? I think that would be a good idea to discuss some of the related issues without interrupting the momentum of the challenge here. Perhaps unnecessary given that it gets easier over time but just a thought.

Ironically enough, long term sobriety is best maintained by making short terms goals.

I think it is probably best for the addicts/alcoholics/boozers/heavy drinkers (choose whatever word you want, some people have too much stubborn pride to call themselves what they really are) here on RVF to take the year long pledge one year at a time, and to further break it down to weeks or days.

In the AA rooms, they always say easy does it, one day at a time, and even though I don't love AA, this is something they have right.

Think of yourself like a marathon runner. No good marathon runner tells themselves I am going to run 26 miles, or I have 23 miles left to run. That would suck. They break it down into smaller pieces. Some take it mile by mile. Some look at distant objects a few hundred yards away, and say I'm not going to think about feeling tired until I get there, and so on and so forth, until they have done it.

I've talked to hard core alcoholics that have many years sober, and a common thing I've heard them tell me is that they wake up every morning and tell themselves the most important thing they will do today is not to have that first drink.

Post: #1375

^ I appreciate the advice, but I honestly don't struggle to not drink whatsoever. So at least for me, I don't really vibe with AA's perspective on that matter and agree with Allen Carr's paradigm much more. He talks about that specific issue with AA a lot in the book.

I mean, I couldn't imagine waking up everyday to tell myself I couldn't do something - these guys are putting theirselves through slow torture, and it seems like a horrible way to frame it in your mind. Willpower is known to be finite, and if you read psycho-cybernetics, it becomes instantly clear why building the idea of "I am an alcoholic" or "I am one drink away from rock bottom" is a dangerous thing to do with your self image. Possibly the worst thing a man could do with something this destructive.

In fact, psycho-cybernetics offers a lot of insight into why Carr's methods have proven so effective over the years.

Anyhow, as long as I've made the decision to not drink already, as I've done again today, I have zero problem not doing it. Can even go out and be around other partiers and have a good time - doesn't bother me in the slightest. In fact, I would say that the reason I started drinking again is because I set a one year goal instead of just committing to kicking it for good, but I also accept not everyone is the same in this regard, so I'm not going to knock on the methedology of the group.

The reason I mentioned a possible long-termer thread is because I know a few guys from the forum who are well past the year mark, and the ride of a guy past the year stage is definitely different than that of guys who are just now starting or on the fence. My friendships with the guys who've been there and done it, and the extra layer of accountability that creates, have proven to be especially valuable in my own journey. Possibly overkill to have another thread, though - was just throwing it out there.

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. To be your own man is a hard business. If you try it, you'll be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." - Rudyard Kipling