Post: #176

Post: #177

Giving more money to Greece would be like giving more drugs to an addict. Sure he won't be sick for a while but it's not solving anything.

The Greeks do have a major bargaining chip - Europe (especially Germany) has had enough of Muslim immigrants. So just offer sovereign land to any nation willing to pony up the cash. As soon as a middle eastern country expressed interest, Germany would free up cash within an hour.

Post: #178

I'm sick of greece. They faked to get into EU, they have corruption and a bad system. They make it to easy to just blame Germany and the EU. I'm not saying how German and the EU deal with the whole crisis is good but the southern countries are messed up for many reasons but Germany is not the origin of that.

Post: #179

The referendum will be conducted tomorrow and so far opinion polls have it 44 Yes, 43 No. Its too close to call. The SYRIZA camp held their big rally last night and the Communists the night before. The Yes side have also been out in force with the business and oligarchic owned media pushing the YES vote hard.

Tomorrow will be a very interesting day.

Meanwhile butch lesbo Frau Merkel gets trolled.





OXI!

Bring it on.

Post: #180

(07-03-2015 03:33 AM)Galahad Wrote:  I'm sick of greece. They faked to get into EU, they have corruption and a bad system. They make it to easy to just blame Germany and the EU. I'm not saying how German and the EU deal with the whole crisis is good but the southern countries are messed up for many reasons but Germany is not the origin of that.

Goldman-Sachs, the king and anti-king makers of Obama and Romney cooked Greece's books to get it into a Euro system whereby usury might be extracted at a continental scale. Greece therefore had access to money created from nothing at the same interest rates as Germany.

What could possibly go wrong and qui bono ?

What is the 'value' of the derivatives markets in the London and NYC casinos in comparison the the entire world's GDP?

To survive a shark attack you just need to be faster than the slowest swimmer but when Greece is gobbled up who is the next swimmer who will be panting for breath?

Greece and most of the early joiners of the EU joined a social-democracy. Against General de Gaulle's warning (who was hit by the early SJWs of the New Left who were on the CIA payroll), the UK as the US' Trojan Horse entered Europe and has helped transform it into a financial-democracy.

If the Greek demos buckles and votes YES to austerity, it will be officially a financial-democracy.

Post: #181

From what I've read No.6 is right, at least in that first paragraph. The countries who "cooked the books" to get into the Euro had it done for them by the big banks who were all too happy to do so.

Post: #182

Greece right now:

Post: #183

Post: #184

It's looking like a.....

Post: #185

Looks like Oxi will take it.



Live Results at http://ekloges.ypes.gr/current/e/public/...l?lang=en#

Post: #186

So what happens now?

Post: #187

This will be an interesting week. Not that the days leading up to the vote have not been. Leaders in their other countries need to deal with their own people as well. Germans have never been too happy with Greece it seems. So now does the EU show some balls or back down. Either way a strong message will be made.

Post: #188

(07-05-2015 01:27 PM)el mechanico Wrote:  So what happens now?

Just a stab at what could happen:

Quote:Here is how the German megabank sees the possible outcomes of what is shaping up to be a "No" vote:

N1 – Soft deal: The most unlikely scenario is that the euro-area partners offer a much softer programme to Greece.
N2 – Default-and-stay: Moderately less unlikely is a scenario where Greece defaults but stays in the euro thanks to a direct recapitalisation of Greek banks by the euro-area partners, with the Greek government using only domestic resources for the country’s fiscal needs.
N3 – New deal: The third scenario is one in which the rising economic and political cost of a closed banking system results in the Syriza government being replaced by a new government of national unity and a new deal with creditors being reached.
N4 – Grexit: In our view, Grexit and Scenario N3 are the most likely – with about equal probabilities. That said, we see the probability of Grexit increasing the larger is the margin of victory of the NO vote. Even with a NO vote, the cumulative probability of the first three scenarios still exceeds that of Grexit.

N1, to me, seems the most likely just because it's more can kicking and bureaucrats hate change, so anything to maintain the status quo. N4, which the media would love - especially ZH - is, in my opinion, the most unlikely because it creates work and change for bureaucrats.

But N4 may happen.

Post: #189

(07-05-2015 01:27 PM)el mechanico Wrote:  So what happens now?

That depends on whether the European Central Bank increases the amount of emergency liquidity assistance (ELA) being extended to the Bank of Greece, and then to the major Greek banks.

The ECB has stated previously that there needs to be a viable prospect of a deal between Greece and the IMF/EU/EC for them to keep extending ELA - with the overwhelming scale of the NO vote, Draghi may very well pull all ELA.

That will essentially cause a complete failure of the Greek banking system, as the level of bank run that has been taking place has virtually stripped all the Greek commercial banks of cash on hand to pay back depositors. If the ECB pulls the ELA, it would likely force the Greek government to introduce some sort of IOU in place of the euros that Greeks are hoarding - basically, a parallel currency, whether called the drachma or not.

ZeroHedge has a good description of the day-after: http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-07-05...tsche-bank

Post: #190

Fuck yes, break away you little beauty. Start the dominoes that topple the EU dictators.

Post: #191

I hate Marxists, but I also hate the Federalists kings of the EU. If one starts the fire under the other then so be it.

The most hilarious part is Greece saying they now have something to go back to the negotiations with and the creditors should like it! A lazy socialist country has yet to learn its lesson it seems.

Post: #192

(07-05-2015 03:08 PM)Foolsgo1d Wrote:  I hate Marxists, but I also hate the Federalists kings of the EU. If one starts the fire under the other then so be it.

The most hilarious part is Greece saying they now have something to go back to the negotiations with and the creditors should like it! A lazy socialist country has yet to learn its lesson it seems.

It is the Marxists who are at the forefront of the fight against the banker crony capitalist dictatorship of the unelected Eurocrats and their Goldman Sachs spivs just to let you know. Don't let that little fact get in the way. Carry on

Post: #193

Ζητω η Ελλαδα!

Post: #194

Article in the Telegraph suggesting that Syriza may be preparing to introduce scrip-style IOUs (in effect, a parallel currency), as well as nationalizing Greek banks and using emergency powers to forcibly take over the Bank of Greece and print euronotes. Hot damn....

Telegraph3

Quote:Greek voters have rejected the austerity demands of Europe's creditor powers by a stunning margin, sweeping aside warnings that this could lead to the collapse of the banking system and a return to the drachma.

Early returns in the historic referendum showed the No side -Oxi in Greek =- running at 61pc versus 39pc for the Yes side as the Greek people turned out en masse to vent their anger over six years of economic depression and national humiliation. A volcanic revolt appeared to have swept through Greek islands.

The shock result effectively calls the bluff of eurozone leaders and the heads of the European Commission and Parliament, forcing them either to back down or carry out drastic threats to eject Greece from monetary union.

The European Central Bank faces an immediate decision over whether to continue freezing emergency liquidity assistance (ELA) for Greek banks at €89bn, a stance that would amount to liquidity suffocation.

"If they do that, the situation would be very serious. That would be pretty close to trying to bring down the government," said Euclid Tsakalotos, the country's chief debt negotiator.

The Bank of Greece (BoG) said on Sunday evening that it will make a formal request to the ECB for fresh support.

The EU's leadership was in utter confusion as it became clear during the day that support was swinging back to the "No" camp, despite blanket coverage from the private TV stations warning that a "No" meant Armageddon.

"The Greek people have proven that they cannot be blackmailed, terrorized, and threatened," said Panos Kammenos, the defence minister and head of the coalition's ANEL party.

French president Francois Hollande said he would bend over backwards to keep Greece in the euro despite voting no. He is to meet German Chancellor Angela Merkel in Paris on Monday to draw up a joint response to what has turned into the biggest EU fiasco since the rejection of the constitution by France and Holland in 2005.

Martin Schulz, head of the European Parliament, was still insisting on Sunday that a "No" vote must mean expulsion from the euro, but his view is becoming untenable.
Jean-Claude Juncker, the Commission's chief, is equally trapped by his own rhetoric after warning last week that a No vote would be a rejection of Europe itself, leading to calamitous consequences.

Top Syriza officials say they are considering drastic steps to boost liquidity and shore up the banking system, should the ECB refuse to give the country enough breathing room for a fresh talks.

"If necessary, we will issue parallel liquidity and California-style IOU's, in an electronic form. We should have done it a week ago," said Yanis Varoufakis, the finance minister.

California issued temporary coupons to pay bills to contractors when liquidity seized up after the Lehman crisis in 2008. Mr Varoufakis insists that this is not be a prelude to Grexit but a legal action within the inviolable sanctity of monetary union.

Mr Varoufakis and ministers will hold an emergency meeting tonight with the private banks and the governor of the Greek central bank, Yannis Stournaras, to decide what to do before the cash reserves of the four big lenders dry up tomorrow.

Louka Katseli, head of the Hellenic bank Association, said ATM machines will run out of money within hours of the vote. One official say that Eurobank was "flat out of money" late on Sunday, even though Greek depositors have been limited to €60 a day since capital controls were imposed a week ago.

There were mounting signs that the creditors are stepping back from the brink, conceding that they may have to renew talks with Syriza, though it is far from clear what this means. Senior German officials were briefing last week that Greece will not get another cent as long premier Alexis Tsipras and Mr Varoufakis remain in power.

There is now a clear rift between Germany and France. The French economy minister, Emmanuel Macron, said the EMU creditors are equally to blame for the crisis and must resist the temptation to "crush" the Greek people. "It is our responsibility to avoid a Versailles Treaty within the eurozone," he said.

Italy's Matteo Renzi said the sight of pensioners weeping in front of banks was a black mark on the conscience of Europe. "We must start to speak to each other again, and nobody knows this than better than Angela Merkel," he said.

Yet matters will be decided by handful of people in Berlin, Frankfurt, and Brussels over coming days, with the ECB in the unwelcome position of having to decide by its actions whether or not to bring the crisis to a head.

Syriza sources say the Greek ministry of finance is examining options to take direct control of the banking system if need be rather than accept a draconian seizure of depositor savings - reportedly a 'bail-in' above a threshhold of €8,000 - and to prevent any banks being shut down on the orders of the ECB.

Government officials recognize that this would lead to an unprecedented rift with the EU authorities. But Syriza's attitude at this stage is that their only defence against a hegemonic power is to fight guerrilla warfare.

Hardliners within the party - though not Mr Varoufakis - are demanding the head of governor Stournaras, a holdover appointee from the past conservative government.
They want a new team installed, one that is willing to draw on the central bank's secret reserves, and to take the provocative step in extremis of creating euros.
"The first thing we must do is take away the keys to his office. We have to restore stability to the system, with or without the help of the ECB. We have the capacity to print €20 notes," said one.

Such action would require invoking national emergency powers - by decree - and "requisitioning" the Bank of Greece for several months. Officials say these steps would have to be accompanied by an appeal to the European Court: both to assert legality under crisis provisions of the Lisbon Treaty, and to sue the ECB for alleged "dereliction" of its treaty duty to maintain financial stability.

Mr Tsakalotos told the Telegraph that the creditors will find themselves be in a morally indefensible position if they refuse to listen to the voice of the Greek people, especially since the International Monetary Fund last week validated Syriza's core claim that Greece's debt cannot be repaid.

"It would be a pretty extreme position for Europe to say that the vote didn't matter. That is not what they did when Ireland voted 'No' to the Lisbon treaty," he said.
Mr Tsakalotos said Syriza's mood hardened a month ago when the talks turned nasty. "A lot of people were outraged when we gave them a 47-page document and they gave us a 5-page document. It was a slap in the face. They were not even taking the negotiations seriously," he said.

Mr Tsakalotos said Syriza is now in a much stronger negotiating position and the creditors will gain nothing from digging in their heels. "The process has now gone for so long in Greece that we haven't got a hope in Hell of delivering on our promises unless there is a regime change, and by that I mean that people have to feel that Grexit is off the agenda," he said.

To those who complain that his government refuses to reform, he called this a canard. Syriza are the outsiders shaking up a fossilized system.
"Even in they forgave all the debt and gave us €300bn we would still be in deep trouble, if we didn't push through deep reform. No-one in Syriza thinks that everything was hunky-dory in 2008 and we all can go back to that," he said.

It's important to note that Greece owes a payment to the ECB on July 20. If it doesn't pay this instalment (which it doesn't have the funds to do so) then ECB pulling ELA is a certainty - meaning complete collapse of the Greek banking system. Syriza has until the 20th to reach a deal (if one is possible) or everything implodes.

Post: #195

German Lady on ZDF: Tsipras has lost in the end because the Greeks are dying without access to medicaments. Smiles.

Post: #196

Looks like Greece has said no by a wide margin. Spain and Portugal are on the clock now

Post: #197

(07-05-2015 02:05 PM)Phoenix Wrote:  Fuck yes, break away you little beauty. Start the dominoes that topple the EU dictators.

Post: #198

Does anyone have any tips on how to party Greek-style? Should this end with the Greeks leaving the EU, I'm cracking open the Ouzo. I'm ordering something with a Greek flag on it right now just in case.

Post: #199

(07-05-2015 05:49 PM)chyamor Wrote:  Looks like Greece has said no by a wide margin. Spain and Portugal are on the clock now

Ireland has traded with Portugal and the selection is in.

Alright bad draft humor...

Post: #200

(07-05-2015 02:05 PM)Phoenix Wrote:  Fuck yes, break away you little beauty. Start the dominoes that topple the EU dictators.

Anything that hurts the European Union will damage the power and influence of its puppet master the United States, and so therefore we must pray for it. The dominoes that bring down the EU will eventually reach its way into the powers that shined the rainbow onto the face of the White House, and begin to challenge America's political and cultural hegemony over the earth. Let it fall.