Post: #76

Culture= lazy-spoiled- selfish.

Post: #77

(06-28-2015 06:50 PM)Peregrine Wrote:  /thread-47698-...pid1027955

All you said is that Christians could borrow money from Jews during the time of anti-usury laws. I wasn't wrong about anything, if anything I proved my point about banking being unnecessary. Gee, which has been better for civilization: Christianity, Talmudic Judaism, or Islam. Tough choices Hell, I'd pick Islam over Talmudic Judaism.

Post: #78

(06-28-2015 07:54 PM)Samseau Wrote:  

(06-28-2015 06:50 PM)Peregrine Wrote:  /thread-47698-...pid1027955

All you said is that Christians could borrow money from Jews during the time of anti-usury laws. I wasn't wrong about anything, if anything I proved my point about banking being unnecessary. Gee, which has been better for civilization: Christianity, Talmudic Judaism, or Islam. Tough choices Hell, I'd pick Islam over Talmudic Judaism.

You said that the Christian-controlled West flourished notwithstanding a ban on usury for 1000 years. I noted that people got around that ban by making Jews the bankers during that time. I also brought up the Medici Bank as a clear example of banking during your supposed 1000 year period.

How are you not wrong?

Post: #79

Things are not looking good in Greece:

Ignoring Tsipras Plea For Calm, Greeks Storm ATMs, Stores, Gas Stations
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-06-28...s-stations

Post: #80

That is crazy, especially considering that ATMs can't possible dispense that much cash. How many people taking out the daily maximum will it take for a fully stocked ATM to run out of Euros?

According to this article, http://www.money.si/how-much-money-is-in-an-atm.php, an ATM may hold between $84k and $144k. Assuming that a European ATM holds a numerical equivalent of Euros and the daily withdraw limit is 500 Euros, that is only between 168 and 288 people before the machine is empty. Some of those pictures make it look like the line extends well past that number, especially if people are continually being added to the end.

Post: #81

(06-28-2015 08:16 PM)Peregrine Wrote:  

(06-28-2015 07:54 PM)Samseau Wrote:  

(06-28-2015 06:50 PM)Peregrine Wrote:  /thread-47698-...pid1027955

All you said is that Christians could borrow money from Jews during the time of anti-usury laws. I wasn't wrong about anything, if anything I proved my point about banking being unnecessary. Gee, which has been better for civilization: Christianity, Talmudic Judaism, or Islam. Tough choices Hell, I'd pick Islam over Talmudic Judaism.

You said that the Christian-controlled West flourished notwithstanding a ban on usury for 1000 years. I noted that people got around that ban by making Jews the bankers during that time. I also brought up the Medici Bank as a clear example of banking during your supposed 1000 year period.

How are you not wrong?

The Jews were such a small, trivial force in those days the ban was basically universal. Also, if anyone borrowed from the Jews and didn't repay what could the Jews do to get their money back? Most of the time they were just kicked out of a town/province/state. Medici Bank came about as restrictions on usury were relaxed in the 1300's (after those 1000 years of non-usury had passed).

Regardless you asked for times without banking and I provided them to you in that thread. It's not necessary and I seriously doubt it's superiority over non-banking schemes.

Post: #82

(06-28-2015 09:21 PM)Samseau Wrote:  

(06-28-2015 08:16 PM)Peregrine Wrote:  

(06-28-2015 07:54 PM)Samseau Wrote:  

(06-28-2015 06:50 PM)Peregrine Wrote:  /thread-47698-...pid1027955

All you said is that Christians could borrow money from Jews during the time of anti-usury laws. I wasn't wrong about anything, if anything I proved my point about banking being unnecessary. Gee, which has been better for civilization: Christianity, Talmudic Judaism, or Islam. Tough choices Hell, I'd pick Islam over Talmudic Judaism.

You said that the Christian-controlled West flourished notwithstanding a ban on usury for 1000 years. I noted that people got around that ban by making Jews the bankers during that time. I also brought up the Medici Bank as a clear example of banking during your supposed 1000 year period.

How are you not wrong?

The Jews were such a small, trivial force in those days the ban was basically universal. Also, if anyone borrowed from the Jews and didn't repay what could the Jews do to get their money back? Most of the time they were just kicked out of a town/province/state. Medici Bank came about as restrictions on usury were relaxed in the 1300's (after those 1000 years of non-usury had passed).

Regardless you asked for times without banking and I provided them to you in that thread. It's not necessary and I seriously doubt it's superiority over non-banking schemes.

True, I don't think there was much in the way of organized banking between the fall of Rome and ~1100 AD. That said, there wasn't much in the way of explosive growth or progress either (not that explosive growth is necessarily a good thing).

It still seems obvious to me that healthy lending (with interest) is vital to the growth of modern civilization.

The ability to lend money allows for capital to be harnessed in the most efficient manner possible, as people who have money and people who can use money to greatest productive effect are usually not the same people. For example, I might have tons of cash and you might have a great idea and know how to execute. But there's no way I'd lend you money for free out of the goodness of my heart, because there's risk I might not get it back. To compensate me for that risk, I want a fee and we call that fee "interest". Either that, or you have to give me upside in the form of equity.

Do you see what I'm getting at, and why some form of banking is necessary? Remember, I'm not saying that the current leaders of big banks are saints (they're not) or that central banks are awesome (they really suck) or that everything is going great (we're in for some serious shit soon).

Post: #83

(06-28-2015 09:59 PM)Peregrine Wrote:  

(06-28-2015 09:21 PM)Samseau Wrote:  

(06-28-2015 08:16 PM)Peregrine Wrote:  

(06-28-2015 07:54 PM)Samseau Wrote:  

(06-28-2015 06:50 PM)Peregrine Wrote:  /thread-47698-...pid1027955

All you said is that Christians could borrow money from Jews during the time of anti-usury laws. I wasn't wrong about anything, if anything I proved my point about banking being unnecessary. Gee, which has been better for civilization: Christianity, Talmudic Judaism, or Islam. Tough choices Hell, I'd pick Islam over Talmudic Judaism.

You said that the Christian-controlled West flourished notwithstanding a ban on usury for 1000 years. I noted that people got around that ban by making Jews the bankers during that time. I also brought up the Medici Bank as a clear example of banking during your supposed 1000 year period.

How are you not wrong?

The Jews were such a small, trivial force in those days the ban was basically universal. Also, if anyone borrowed from the Jews and didn't repay what could the Jews do to get their money back? Most of the time they were just kicked out of a town/province/state. Medici Bank came about as restrictions on usury were relaxed in the 1300's (after those 1000 years of non-usury had passed).

Regardless you asked for times without banking and I provided them to you in that thread. It's not necessary and I seriously doubt it's superiority over non-banking schemes.

True, I don't think there was much in the way of organized banking between the fall of Rome and ~1100 AD. That said, there wasn't much in the way of explosive growth or progress either (not that explosive growth is necessarily a good thing).

It still seems obvious to me that healthy lending (with interest) is vital to the growth of modern civilization.

The ability to lend money allows for capital to be harnessed in the most efficient manner possible, as people who have money and people who can use money to greatest productive effect are usually not the same people. For example, I might have tons of cash and you might have a great idea and know how to execute. But there's no way I'd lend you money for free out of the goodness of my heart, because there's risk I might not get it back. To compensate me for that risk, I want a fee and we call that fee "interest". Either that, or you have to give me upside in the form of equity.

Do you see what I'm getting at, and why some form of banking is necessary? Remember, I'm not saying that the current leaders of big banks are saints (they're not) or that central banks are awesome (they really suck) or that everything is going great (we're in for some serious shit soon).

I agree that some form of banking may be acceptable, but in general it should be handling by individuals not too big to fail banks that get bailed out whenever bad bets are made.

Also fractional reserve banking is a scam; being able to lend out what you do not have is fraud plain and simple.

A better system is for people who've accumulated capital (such as Bill Gates) are allowed to give their money to others in return of a lump sum payment and the principal. For example, for every $1000 you agree to pay back $1050. But not 4% interest over time or other forms of usury. Lump sum returns only!

Regardless, our world is built on fractional reserve fraud and now the descent into poverty begins with Greece. The fires are going to spread across Europe and finally back to America.

Post: #84

http://www.armstrongeconomics.com/archives/30243 is the best explanation I've found for why fractional banking is not the enemy.

Agreed that TBTF creates serious moral hazard for the men in charge of them. And on a further note, the fact that the three rating agencies are still around and that trillions of $s rest on their opinions is beyond belief.

Quote:A better system is for people who've accumulated capital (such as Bill Gates) are allowed to give their money to others in return of a lump sum payment and the principal. For example, for every $1000 you agree to pay back $1050. But not 4% interest over time or other forms of usury. Lump sum returns only!

Guarantee that Bill Gates wouldn't lend a red cent under those conditions. Does not even begin to compensate for the risk.

Post: #85

It is not fraud, because a bank deposit is a loan. For it to be fraud, it would have to be a bailment. It can't be a bailment since: it can be paid back to you anywhere (e.g. ATM) not just the place of deposit, and it bears interest rather than you paying a storage fee. "Fractional reserve" banking is no problem, and placing the blame on the wrong thing distracts from the true culprits.

Post: #86

(06-28-2015 07:54 PM)Samseau Wrote:  

(06-28-2015 06:50 PM)Peregrine Wrote:  /thread-47698-...pid1027955

All you said is that Christians could borrow money from Jews during the time of anti-usury laws. I wasn't wrong about anything, if anything I proved my point about banking being unnecessary. Gee, which has been better for civilization: Christianity, Talmudic Judaism, or Islam. Tough choices Hell, I'd pick Islam over Talmudic Judaism.

The greatest sector in the Western economy is not only unnecessary, it is an expense - a huge overhead that inflates prices through usury. It not only produces nothing, it stops the natural price match and exchange between producer and consumer. As we can see in this thread, the poison of usury can overturn the host's survival instincts and cause suicide.

We would all be better off if Wall Street and the City of London were moved to other casinos in the Nevada desert.

Dante on Usury Wrote:From the Inferno, Canto XI:

"Once more go back a little to the point,"
I said, "where you state usury offends
The divine goodness, and untie the knot."

"Philosophy, to one who understands,
Points out — and on more than one occasion —
How nature gathers her entire course

"From divine intellect and divine art.
And if you pore over your Physics closely,
You’ll find, not many pages from the start,

"That, when possible, your art follows nature
As a pupil does his master; in effect,
Your art is like the grandchild of our God.

"From art and nature, if you will recall
The opening of Genesis, man is meant
To earn his way and further humankind.

"But still the usurer takes another way:
He scorns nature and her follower, art,
Because he puts his hope in something else."


Dante puts the usurers in the lowest sub-circle of the seventh circle of hell, with others whose sins are regarded as doing violence against nature and nature's God; many people have noted that usurers are placed deeper into hell than violent murderers, violent suicides, blasphemers, and sodomites. Dante regards usurers as perverting art, i.e., productive skill, by means of which we are supposed to produce and create and thereby imitate the goodness of God. Usury is the anti-art: it produces nothing substantial, being just a set of multiplication games with money, and therefore does not really contribute anything to 'earning one's way and furthering humankind'. It merely gives the illusion of doing so, and is therefore a sort of mockery of both human reason and divine providence -- indeed, a sort of universal violence against neighbor, God, and one's own reason, an extraordinarily efficient form of violence by which you do the most damage with the least effort.

http://branemrys.blogspot.co.uk/2009/07/...usury.html

Post: #87

This comment at Takimag brought a smile to my face:

"Look at the people who are ranged against the Greeks - Merkel, Euro-crats, ECB and that ugly caricature of a woman, Lagarde from IMF.

Who are these people? Essentially these people represent the forces of incessant globalisation, Big Finance, ''progress'' and social dissolution.

Merkel will do all she can to suppress any resurgent German nationalism. Lagarde is preaching feminism and open borders - even to Japan. These people are adored by the Judaic elements. EU, as a project, is expansionist anti-nationalist, bureaucratic, progressive and imposing political correctness.

So if a bunch of guys have managed to piss off all of the above, they must be doing something right."

Post: #88

I find it hard to believe that they let Greece out of the EU.
Also a similar situation is happening in Puerto Rico now.

Both countries are ridiculously small by international standards - Puerto Rico's bonds have the size of Detroit.

But the Chinese market went limit-down 10%. Global financial markets are significantly down.

That's a lot of impact based on two countries which are small blips on the international scale. In addition - more than 50% of Greek debt were just added on as interest rates on those bonds partly surged to 50%+ at one time. So plenty of it is just odious usury laden debt that should be annulled.

If they go through with it, then they will use those 2 crises as a pretext to usher in the desired worldwide austerity in order to lower the living standards especially of the Western countries to the stated goals up to 2050.

We will see - interesting times.

Post: #89

Puerto Rico is not a country.

Post: #90

Technically neither is Hong Kong, but it kinda is.

Post: #91

(06-29-2015 02:11 AM)KorbenDallas Wrote:  Puerto Rico is not a country.

As far as I know it's not yet fully a US state, but more similar to the US Virgin Islands.

Post: #92

I'm just saying I think they're not too comparable. Greece could default and restart the drachma and it wouldn't be too inconceivable, but Puerto Rico isn't going to default and declare their independence, or at least, that would be way less likely than Greece.


I'm not getting how the West is going to come up with a solution to all the debt that is in the West.

Spain, Greece, the US, Britain, Austria, Japan, they all have enormous amounts of debt with economies that have failed to grow in the last 8 years with large amounts of people dependent on the gov't with large amounts of people completely ignorant about how financial matters work. People in the US, for the most part, see the financial system as magic.

Zelcorpion, you talk about 2050, but I would be surprised if the West can hobble along until 2020. I understand our leaders would like to extend their reign, but I don't understand how reality won't get in the way.

Post: #93

Greece is fucked. Proper fucked.

Both of their options suck. If they stay in the euro, then they will have to agree to years of painful austerity and an even weaker economy. If they leave the euro, then they will spend the next several years in a deep depression that will only get better once their banking and finance sector is rebuilt from the ground up.

Post: #94

(06-29-2015 03:13 AM)Easy E Wrote:  Greece is fucked. Proper fucked.

Both of their options suck. If they stay in the euro, then they will have to agree to years of painful austerity and an even weaker economy. If they leave the euro, then they will spend the next several years in a deep depression that will only get better once their banking and finance sector is rebuilt from the ground up.

All countries in the world could extricate themselves from the usurous debt by issuing interest free money and repaying the debt with their new currency. They could even repay it all in one bite, if someone pisses them off. Usury is a based on fake money creation. The US when taking over Iraq annulled billions in debt to Russia and France - the amount back then was more than Greece owes now. They just declared old debts of Iraq as "odious". Did the global banking system collapse? No - because it's just digits on a screen.

But this won't happen - they waged war on those who did in the past centuries ago. Now the control matrix is even stronger. Kennedy issued 100 mio. $ of the United States Notes - they were backed by bonds, but that backing could have been amended in the future and it may have become possible to issue money not as debt:


US Notes 1960s

US Fed Notes:


In addition there is the mindless fractional reserve banking which is a legal license to enlarge the quantity of money at will creating booms or busts. This has literally NOTHING IN COMMON WITH LENDING MONEY THAT YOU HAVE EARNED YOURSELF. It is lending money that you have legally created out of thin air and the backing is fictitious at best.

Ah well - who cares - it's not going to happen anyway - any politician wanting to create an interest free drachma would be found dead in the closet while he strangulated himself to orgasm supposedly.

Post: #95

I will be in Greece in 9 days. Lovely.

I'll be withdrawing and carrying Euros in prior to arrival. Any other pieces of advice I should heed?

Post: #96

(06-29-2015 04:08 AM)MaleDefined Wrote:  I will be in Greece in 9 days. Lovely.

I'll be withdrawing and carrying Euros in prior to arrival. Any other pieces of advice I should heed?

Take a lot of small bills and change with you if you can. You could even take dollars with you - if anything comes down, they will be worth more - plenty of single dollar bills.

Aside from that I don't think that tourist centers will be impacted much by anything unless you want to play Rambo-tourist and participate in riots and demonstrations.

Post: #97

Zel, every time I read one of your posts, I swear we share the same reading habits and political views. Now, if more like minded people could just get the message out there...

Post: #98

(06-29-2015 04:08 AM)MaleDefined Wrote:  I will be in Greece in 9 days. Lovely.

I'll be withdrawing and carrying Euros in prior to arrival. Any other pieces of advice I should heed?

Hey.. Avoid discussing politics with the locals and just have fun. I'll be there myself in a month and I cant wait. There is something profoundly beautiful about Greece. The sunlight, the air, the smell of jasmine in the islands. Greece in the summer is like a permanent cocaine high without the comedown.

Post: #99

(06-29-2015 04:15 AM)Zelcorpion Wrote:  

(06-29-2015 04:08 AM)MaleDefined Wrote:  I will be in Greece in 9 days. Lovely.

I'll be withdrawing and carrying Euros in prior to arrival. Any other pieces of advice I should heed?

Take a lot of small bills and change with you if you can. You could even take dollars with you - if anything comes down, they will be worth more - plenty of single dollar bills.

Aside from that I don't think that tourist centers will be impacted much by anything unless you want to play Rambo-tourist and participate in riots and demonstrations.

That was my train of thought as well.

No rambo tourism for me. My philosophy when abroad is to never be the easiest target on the street. I'm sure plenty will be more naive to the situation than I am.

Post: #100

(06-29-2015 04:41 AM)MaleDefined Wrote:  

(06-29-2015 04:15 AM)Zelcorpion Wrote:  

(06-29-2015 04:08 AM)MaleDefined Wrote:  I will be in Greece in 9 days. Lovely.

I'll be withdrawing and carrying Euros in prior to arrival. Any other pieces of advice I should heed?

Take a lot of small bills and change with you if you can. You could even take dollars with you - if anything comes down, they will be worth more - plenty of single dollar bills.

Aside from that I don't think that tourist centers will be impacted much by anything unless you want to play Rambo-tourist and participate in riots and demonstrations.

That was my train of thought as well.

No rambo tourism for me. My philosophy when abroad is to never be the easiest target on the street. I'm sure plenty will be more naive to the situation than I am.

On second thought I would probably take lots of single dollar notes, because change might run low in Greece and if you have 5 Euro or 10 Euro bills, then you would have to spend the full amount as businesses cannot give change. Dollars can bridge the gap. The payment systems will probably work too, but my guess is that people will prefer cash anyway.

A short report on the situation would be cool.