Post: #451

This is a very good overview of the Yang program, the pluses and minuses, by Greg Johnson on JF's show. The meat of this vid starts at 19:30, click on the bottom link if you don't want to scroll:





https://youtu.be/EDebPwOu3lU?t=1170



What we're seeing with Trump today is the unraveling of two irreconcilable agendas he's been trying to cater to: America First vs Israel First. Zionists have a deep-seated, existential fear and hatred of America First, and that is why Trump has failed on the immigration agenda. His (((backers))) and the GOP establishment are for open borders, the Reps, driven by the likes of Kochs and Adelson are for open borders even if it ultimately leads to the destruction of their popular base. You're never going to see any real changes on this with people like Kushner influencing immigration deals.

Zionists are also fundamentally trotskyite interventionists, wars for Israel are for them THE most important policy item. We've already spent close to $7 trillion on those wars since 2001, amounting to nearly $100,000 per taxpaying household. This is not going to change with Trump, his recent official thumbs up on the annexation of the Golan Heights, along with his half-ass 180 degree turn on the evacuation of Syria, confirms this.

Deep down, Trump is basically a zionist, he's been married into their NY community (literally so if you look at his progeny), and he is a longtime kabbalah adept. He's not Christian, at least not in terms of his beliefs. We know this because he's had a kabbalah instructor/mentor for decades, per his own book. His father's fortune was built on those zionist ties, to whom he owes everything. Trump would have been at best a random smalltime millionaire today if he wasn't bailed out by the Rothschilds in 1990. His family has been intertwined with the Jewish establishment, his brother for example was a Sammie at Lehigh U in the 1950s, back when only Jewish members joined that fraternity.

I think Trump does have a patriotic fiber in him, but that fiber is weaved in with a stronger zionist fiber. He owes his financial survival and success to the latter. It's practically part of his personal identity.

Yang has a non-interventionist foreign policy agenda. He's got zionist ties as well, Sam Harris being one of his major political backers. I think it was that Harris link that led to his Joe Rogan appearance, but I don't think that link is as strong as Trump's link to the zionists.

As well UBI creates a strong, natural disincentive against mass immigration, particularly from African Americans and Hispanic citizens who aren't going to want others to have a piece of the UBI pie. This, along with Yang's proposed 18 year waiting period for illegals/DACA constitute a stronger platform against immigration than what Trump is doing today.

Post: #452

(03-22-2019 03:03 AM)Samseau Wrote:  ...

Don't even waste your time Brodiga, the people in here are just to give each other a big circle jerk. The VAT tax objection has been brought up at least 20-30 times in this thread, with big replies like yours, but the shills here just keep plowing.

I will laugh my ass off if Yang gets in and when the prices start rising 100-300% (including rents) due to the VAT taxes necessary to sustain such a UBI, and all the poor Whites who vote for him try protesting just for Yang to send in the military to murder everyone because he's an Asian who doesn't give a fuck about Whites.

As far as the best Dem candidate based on policy? Right now it is Elizabeth Warren, whose "wealth tax" idea is the net worth tax I've tried to explain for years. Unless the rich are directly taxed from their bank accounts, then this country is doomed to bankruptcy and civil war.

The only possible way to survive the coming economic storm is if rich fucks are actually taxed to pay for stuff. Otherwise this country is going down the tubes very quickly.

I agree with you and Nomad about taxes on the ultrarich (above $50M net worth) and on financial transaction are much better sources than a VAT. This being said, talks of "100%-300% inflation" are totally irrational. Food prices for example won't be affected. More people will start eating out more, or buying better food.

Housing prices will adapt in the long term through increased supply in those markets where construction is not restricted, and the costs of building aren't affected by a UBI. Lumber, windows, roof tiles and so forth aren't directly affected. You will have a construction boom, with for instance middle class renters becoming home buyers and lower-income renters upgrading.

In real estate markets where growth is restricted (California), there will be some inflation, but you will start seeing an acceleration in the exodus to cheaper/more deregulated housing markets like Texas. Places with very low rents and decent housing stocks like the Rust Belt are going to see a strong influx of new residents, stimulating their economic growth.

The most interesting aspect of UBI is its effect on labor. You're going to see the UBI making the working poor drop their moonlighting jobs, and fewer people attracted to menial jobs. This will result in turn in those jobs becoming higher paying. This is a healthy upwards spiral which will benefit minorities that do want to work, while punishing minorities who used to be on welfare, as their first $1,000/mo is now void or negated by the UBI.

Post: #453

Post: #454

(03-21-2019 08:36 PM)Cattle Rustler Wrote:  I’m here for memes, not the austistic analsysis.

Just like us all.

But sometimes you get both.

Post: #455

(03-22-2019 08:50 AM)scorpion Wrote:  If nothing else, Yang has enormous potential as a wreckingball candidate similar to Trump in 2015. Remember those days? The Republicans were all set to have another run-of-the-mill primary where the candidates would all mouth the same tired platitudes about "muh free markets" and "American values" and which would inevitably end with the Jeb Bush coronation. But then Trump descended his golden escalator and blew the entire thing to pieces. Yang could perform a similar function within the Democratic party. The establishment is clearly trying to set up Kamala Harris as their Hillary/Jeb candidate of inevitability, and the rest of the candidates are just going to play the standard left-wing game and try to out-virtue signal one another on the issues. But Yang can come in and totally change the debate. While the other candidates are getting lost in the weeds trying to one-up each other on identity politics, Yang's economic populist message will resonate strongly and suck up a lot of oxygen in the room. If the young activist wing of the party (i.e. the 2016 Bernie crowd) latches on to him in a big way it's going to cause serious disarray on the left.

From a practical perspective there are serious concerns about the actual implementation of UBI, but supporting Yang has no downside at this point. At the very least doing so pushes some important issues into the discussion and serves to fracture and weaken the power base on the left. If he gains serious traction the most likely outcome is the DNC conspiring to destroy his candidacy and pissing off a huge number of young white leftists in the process, who then don't vote in the general election and many of whom become more open to populist nationalism after getting burned by the DNC and the identity politics monster.

Exactly.

I've alluded to before how Yang can be the Trump of the left in this sense as well. The real interesting angle that you mention is:

What happens if Yang gets serious traction and then gets crushed by the power elite democrats.... just as what happened with Bernie in 2016?

I know Bernie Bros that voted for Trump out of spite last election and they despise the democrat establishment now. Many Bernie Bros are jumping ship to Yang and so if Yang gets KO'ed by the establishment unfairly... the consequences could be very interesting.

Post: #456

(03-22-2019 11:47 AM)911 Wrote:  This is a very good overview of the Yang program, the pluses and minuses, by Greg Johnson on JF's show. The meat of this vid starts at 19:30, click on the bottom link if you don't want to scroll:





https://youtu.be/EDebPwOu3lU?t=1170



What we're seeing with Trump today is the unraveling of two irreconcilable agendas he's been trying to cater to: America First vs Israel First. Zionists have a deep-seated, existential fear and hatred of America First, and that is why Trump has failed on the immigration agenda. His (((backers))) and the GOP establishment are for open borders, the Reps, driven by the likes of Kochs and Adelson are for open borders even if it ultimately leads to the destruction of their popular base. You're never going to see any real changes on this with people like Kushner influencing immigration deals.

Zionists are also fundamentally trotskyite interventionists, wars for Israel are for them THE most important policy item. We've already spent close to $7 trillion on those wars since 2001, amounting to nearly $100,000 per taxpaying household. This is not going to change with Trump, his recent official thumbs up on the annexation of the Golan Heights, along with his half-ass 180 degree turn on the evacuation of Syria, confirms this.

Deep down, Trump is basically a zionist, he's been married into their NY community (literally so if you look at his progeny), and he is a longtime kabbalah adept. He's not Christian, at least not in terms of his beliefs. We know this because he's had a kabbalah instructor/mentor for decades, per his own book. His father's fortune was built on those zionist ties, to whom he owes everything. Trump would have been at best a random smalltime millionaire today if he wasn't bailed out by the Rothschilds in 1990. His family has been intertwined with the Jewish establishment, his brother for example was a Sammie at Lehigh U in the 1950s, back when only Jewish members joined that fraternity.

I think Trump does have a patriotic fiber in him, but that fiber is weaved in with a stronger zionist fiber. He owes his financial survival and success to the latter. It's practically part of his personal identity.

Yang has a non-interventionist foreign policy agenda. He's got zionist ties as well, Sam Harris being one of his major political backers. I think it was that Harris link that led to his Joe Rogan appearance, but I don't think that link is as strong as Trump's link to the zionists.

As well UBI creates a strong, natural disincentive against mass immigration, particularly from African Americans and Hispanic citizens who aren't going to want others to have a piece of the UBI pie. This, along with Yang's proposed 18 year waiting period for illegals/DACA constitute a stronger platform against immigration than what Trump is doing today.

Post: #457

You forget that Trump came along after a 2 term president. Trump as incumbent, having been successful in many ways, and himself the first outsider, makes any newcomer like Yang, already a super longshot.

Throw in his physically weak appearance and presence, and he essentially has no shot. Add a dash of totally chaotic Democrat Party, and he's got what we all know, but what I'm still surprised you don't get --- he's got no chance.

Post: #458

(03-22-2019 11:47 AM)911 Wrote:  As well UBI creates a strong, natural disincentive against mass immigration, particularly from African Americans and Hispanic citizens who aren't going to want others to have a piece of the UBI pie. This, along with Yang's proposed 18 year waiting period for illegals/DACA constitute a stronger platform against immigration than what Trump is doing today.

Assuming he gets into office, how long is his immigration plan going to last when

1. The core of both parties are for more and easier immigration
2. It's not a flagship issue for him

It'll go from 18 years to 18 weeks in about 5 minutes.

Post: #459

The current process is "step over the border".

Trump for all his bluff and bluster is either impotent to stop it or he doesn't actually want to. I'm starting to assume the latter based on his perpetuation of ICE's idiotic management that causes them to be entirely ineffective.

So Yang's immigration policies are pretty irrelevant in that light. Unless he plans to build a treadmill that runs from Honduras to Texas he can't make things worse than Trump has.

Post: #460

(03-22-2019 10:28 PM)Kid Twist Wrote:  You forget that Trump came along after a 2 term president. Trump as incumbent, having been successful in many ways, and himself the first outsider, makes any newcomer like Yang, already a super longshot.

Throw in his physically weak appearance and presence, and he essentially has no shot. Add a dash of totally chaotic Democrat Party, and he's got what we all know, but what I'm still surprised you don't get --- he's got no chance.

Well, we've hashed out the "Is Trump going to win" to death over in the Trump thread.
I think he's in danger because he's failed on most of his important promises, and was far, far too lax in the way he protected his supporters.

Yang offers a compelling idea, and one that might play far better in the heartland than people think. Remember, "hopeless" lower-class whites make up a gigantic portion of the vote in swing states, and it's precisely these people to whom Yang's message should appeal most. The odds are against him, but I don't think "no chance" is right.

Post: #461

So who here is actually taking Wang seriously as opposed to hoping he pushes the envelope so some form of slippery slope becomes a full-on fall?

Post: #462

(03-22-2019 11:47 AM)911 Wrote:  What we're seeing with Trump today is the unraveling of two irreconcilable agendas he's been trying to cater to: America First vs Israel First. Zionists have a deep-seated, existential fear and hatred of America First, and that is why Trump has failed on the immigration agenda. His (((backers))) and the GOP establishment are for open borders, the Reps, driven by the likes of Kochs and Adelson are for open borders even if it ultimately leads to the destruction of their popular base. You're never going to see any real changes on this with people like Kushner influencing immigration deals.

Zionists are also fundamentally trotskyite interventionists, wars for Israel are for them THE most important policy item. We've already spent close to $7 trillion on those wars since 2001, amounting to nearly $100,000 per taxpaying household. This is not going to change with Trump, his recent official thumbs up on the annexation of the Golan Heights, along with his half-ass 180 degree turn on the evacuation of Syria, confirms this.

Deep down, Trump is basically a zionist, he's been married into their NY community (literally so if you look at his progeny), and he is a longtime kabbalah adept. He's not Christian, at least not in terms of his beliefs. We know this because he's had a kabbalah instructor/mentor for decades, per his own book. His father's fortune was built on those zionist ties, to whom he owes everything. Trump would have been at best a random smalltime millionaire today if he wasn't bailed out by the Rothschilds in 1990. His family has been intertwined with the Jewish establishment, his brother for example was a Sammie at Lehigh U in the 1950s, back when only Jewish members joined that fraternity.

I think Trump does have a patriotic fiber in him, but that fiber is weaved in with a stronger zionist fiber. He owes his financial survival and success to the latter. It's practically part of his personal identity.

Yang has a non-interventionist foreign policy agenda. He's got zionist ties as well, Sam Harris being one of his major political backers. I think it was that Harris link that led to his Joe Rogan appearance, but I don't think that link is as strong as Trump's link to the zionists.

As well UBI creates a strong, natural disincentive against mass immigration, particularly from African Americans and Hispanic citizens who aren't going to want others to have a piece of the UBI pie. This, along with Yang's proposed 18 year waiting period for illegals/DACA constitute a stronger platform against immigration than what Trump is doing today.

Based and redpilled.

Post: #463

(03-23-2019 02:38 AM)SamuelBRoberts Wrote:  

(03-22-2019 10:28 PM)Kid Twist Wrote:  You forget that Trump came along after a 2 term president. Trump as incumbent, having been successful in many ways, and himself the first outsider, makes any newcomer like Yang, already a super longshot.

Throw in his physically weak appearance and presence, and he essentially has no shot. Add a dash of totally chaotic Democrat Party, and he's got what we all know, but what I'm still surprised you don't get --- he's got no chance.

Well, we've hashed out the "Is Trump going to win" to death over in the Trump thread.
I think he's in danger because he's failed on most of his important promises, and was far, far too lax in the way he protected his supporters.

Yang offers a compelling idea, and one that might play far better in the heartland than people think. Remember, "hopeless" lower-class whites make up a gigantic portion of the vote in swing states, and it's precisely these people to whom Yang's message should appeal most. The odds are against him, but I don't think "no chance" is right.

Even if you are right about that, and I don't agree to the degree you guys state it, the hope and temptation of Trump winning term 2 and going scorched earth is plenty for people to push him through for 4 more years. And that's precisely what you'll see.

ps - of course no chance is to make the point, but seriously, it's greater than 100,000:1

Post: #464

(03-23-2019 07:09 AM)Foolsgo1d Wrote:  So who here is actually taking Wang seriously as opposed to hoping he pushes the envelope so some form of slippery slope becomes a full-on fall?

Great question, totally amusing.

These guys don't realize the REAL restructuring and weirdness is not going to come with a guy like this, it's when the recession/demographic/public debt bombs hit and actually, truly impact the markets/retirement/US dollar or bonds in a way that even lying leftists can't convince people to look past the obvious math, since confidence will be gone.

Post: #465

^^^^ it's already much greater than 100,000 to 1, Yang is currently listed at 22 to 1 on Oddschecker, #5 Dem behind Biden, sanders, Kamala, and Beto, and ahead of Warren and Booker.

(03-23-2019 02:38 AM)SamuelBRoberts Wrote:  

(03-22-2019 10:28 PM)Kid Twist Wrote:  You forget that Trump came along after a 2 term president. Trump as incumbent, having been successful in many ways, and himself the first outsider, makes any newcomer like Yang, already a super longshot.

Throw in his physically weak appearance and presence, and he essentially has no shot. Add a dash of totally chaotic Democrat Party, and he's got what we all know, but what I'm still surprised you don't get --- he's got no chance.

Well, we've hashed out the "Is Trump going to win" to death over in the Trump thread.
I think he's in danger because he's failed on most of his important promises, and was far, far too lax in the way he protected his supporters.

Yang offers a compelling idea, and one that might play far better in the heartland than people think. Remember, "hopeless" lower-class whites make up a gigantic portion of the vote in swing states, and it's precisely these people to whom Yang's message should appeal most. The odds are against him, but I don't think "no chance" is right.

The most essential attribute that has propelled both Obama and Trump to their wins in the last three elections is the fact that they were perceived as outsiders. Sanders as well has this outsider veneer, and he would have probably beaten Trump in 2016 had the DNC not illegally wrestled the nomination away from him.

This non-establishment attribute in Yang is one of the main reasons he's already in the top 5 Dems on the oddsmakers list, ahead of more established bigname candidates like Warren and Booker. Buttigieg, who also came out of nowhere (but is a total globohomo fraud) is also using this approach to leap ahead of the pack and into the group of finalists.

Yang's perceived weakness, his Asian geekiness, is actually a strength, I think he knows that. Sanders also leveraged his non-conventional geeky ethnic NYer image to his advantage. Yang's persona is kind of an antidote to Trump's blustery character, so this trait will appeal to those who were disappointed with Trump.

In other words, Yang is the ying to Trump's yang.

Post: #466

(03-22-2019 10:02 AM)Malone Wrote:  The thing is with increasing automation most people just become useless eaters/consumers. If we're not going to have some kind of cataclysm to kill off the useless 80% then something else has to be done.

I wonder if the reason we all think this is because of basic assumptions we make about what an economy is, and how money works.

I just had to do the dishes; the water is free with my rent, the soap is so cheap it might as well be free, but I still had to do the dishes. Get up, move around... if I were working at a kitchen, loading the dishwasher would be something I was paid for.

Will we ever be so post scarcity I don't have to do dishes?

Or look at it from the other end: were the Romans not so wealthy, each family owning a caste of slaves, that they could be called post scarcity?

How exactly does the world work - how does it look? When we have robot slaves doing everything for us? Will they carry me to my car, and drive me to - well, I guess not work. So what am I doing?

I think our species has been post scarcity multiple times, and we're post scarcity right now. Our problems are not automation; it's the endless bureaucracy and regulation - all of which boil down to social expectations - except they're expectations designed, not by our community, but by foreigners who hate us (I consider everybody who works in government to be a hostile, invading alien species. Prove me wrong.).

UBI only makes sense if you assume that the rules of D&D define how reality actually exists. If you think the modern 'conception' of 'work' and 'salary' have some sort of intrinsic reality - that they aren't just assumptions and constructs that we find convenient.

Post: #467

(03-23-2019 10:57 AM)911 Wrote:  ...

In other words, Yang is the ying to Trump's yang.

Post: #468

(03-23-2019 07:09 AM)Foolsgo1d Wrote:  So who here is actually taking Wang seriously as opposed to hoping he pushes the envelope so some form of slippery slope becomes a full-on fall?

I am, yeah. As I've said above, I see the possibility of a gigantic, horrible collapse coming for America, and if it hits I think the death toll might get up to the hundreds of millions.

At first, I thought, "Hey we can maybe avoid this if the US isn't overrun by foreign invaders."

Failed utterly. Complete disaster on every level. I couldn't even get guys HERE to agree to that idea, because it involved telling well-respected members things that would hurt them. Nobody was willing to do it, and this is on a goofy internet forum about getting second and third-world sluts to take their clothes off. If they won't agree to the idea here, the odds they'll be willing to do it in real life, where the social costs are vastly higher, are pretty much zero.

So that idea went by the wayside, and now it's on to the next idea, which is a UBI. And I think Yang's a great candidate for the idea. He's smart, eloquent, and simultaneously avoids the "You're a racist!" bullshit from the left by virtue of being Asian, and the "You just want free money!" argument from the right by virtue of having paid more in taxes than most people will earn in their lives.

Is it still a long shot? Sure, for reasons a lot of people have pointed out. But what's the alternative, really? Just give up and wait for the apocalypse?

Post: #469

(03-23-2019 10:57 AM)911 Wrote:  The most essential attribute that has propelled both Obama and Trump to their wins in the last three elections is the fact that they were perceived as outsiders. Sanders as well has this outsider veneer, and he would have probably beaten Trump in 2016 had the DNC not illegally wrestled the nomination away from him.

This non-establishment attribute in Yang is one of the main reasons he's already in the top 5 Dems on the oddsmakers list, ahead of more established bigname candidates like Warren and Booker. Buttigieg, who also came out of nowhere (but is a total globohomo fraud) is also using this approach to leap ahead of the pack and into the group of finalists.

Yang's perceived weakness, his Asian geekiness, is actually a strength, I think he knows that. Sanders also leveraged his non-conventional geeky ethnic NYer image to his advantage. Yang's persona is kind of an antidote to Trump's blustery character, so this trait will appeal to those who were disappointed with Trump.

In other words, Yang is the ying to Trump's yang.

People forget that by 2008, there was huge amounts of fatigue with regards to Bush 2 and his poor speaking skills and somewhat simpleton like personality. The world was dealing with complex problems and as evident by the wars in the Middle East, the complexities of the issues were WAY over Bush 2's head.

So when Obama came along and gave off the impression of being very intelligent and nuanced while also able to give very inspiring speeches, it was a massive RELIEF to many. McCain was already fighting an uphill battle on many fronts (being basically Bush version 3) but when he picked SARAH FUCKING PALIN as his running mate, that was a wrap for the 2008 election. The thought of another Bush like idiot running things killed whatever chance McCain had.

It's not a one for one comparison but Yang IS basically the opposite of Trump, as he likes to joke by saying: "The opposite of Donald Trump is an Asian man who likes math."

Trump is already hated by the left but there are many moderates and guys like me who see Trump as sort of a used car salesman now. Talks a good game, has a fun personality, but doesn't really deliver on the promises nor does he understand or care about the details of whatever he is selling. He just sells whatever the management tells him to sell and does whatever it takes to meet his quota.

Yang is basically the opposite. He is very level headed, rational, and understands the moving parts of things very well. He knows how to sell as well but more in the fashion of a modern day sales engineer; where it's a lot less bluster and flash and more about consulting/discussion, understanding the customers problem very well, and delivering a solution that results in great referral business because the overall selling experience was excellent and the product delivers.

If 2020 rolls around and Trump's is still perceived to be a big talker with little depth (and has little in the way of accomplishments after 4 years in office), someone like Yang is going to look VERY enticing to many. Just think about a debate between Trump and Yang for a moment: Trump would likely end up getting embarrassed by Yang. It would be like someone with a Ph.D in physics having a science debate with a 6th grader. Trump can't hide and say now, "I'll just hire the best people" as an out to something he doesn't understand; he had 4 years to do that and none of that has happened. I just can't see Trump addressing Yang's platform intelligently or in a way that would be an effective counter-attack. Screaming "socialism" won't be effective; especially if the economy crashes between now and 2020. I can see Trump attacking with thin arguments and making himself look like a fool and showing the public how out of his depth he is and therefore, paving the path to victory for someone like Yang.

Post: #470

Trump absolutely obliterated brilliant guys like Ben Carson and totally crushed evil but very smart and gold treatment from the media Hillary (she had debate answers in advance for Christ's sake).

Would yang do better than them? Maybe. Is it likely that he'd trounce trump in a debate? No.

Post: #471

Ben Carson is “brilliant”? Lol. Trump had the fun and unpredictable factor and that’s why he did well. Now that he’s been exposed as a talker and not a doer, I can totally see someone like yang embarrassing him in a debate.

Post: #472

I think the counter argument to UBI “how would you get UBI passed through Congress, they can’t agree on anything, except that we need to keep giving billions to other countries”

Post: #473

I think the most useful thing Yang could do is get the Democrats to abandon identity politics and return to economic issues. However, I can't see how this can happen given there are so many shysters committed to this gravy train. Trump served his purpose but I don't see a long term movement coming from his leadership. Keep in mind that 1/2 of the world's population lives on less than $2.50 a day and there is an active left intentionally stirring up hatred and division. Things can go bad very quickly. We really need solutions, but America is becoming dumber by the minute. We are ready for an engineer instead of wasting all our resources on endless wars in the Middle East.

Post: #474

(03-24-2019 02:41 AM)AneroidOcean Wrote:  Trump absolutely obliterated brilliant guys like Ben Carson and totally crushed evil but very smart and gold treatment from the media Hillary (she had debate answers in advance for Christ's sake).

Would yang do better than them? Maybe. Is it likely that he'd trounce trump in a debate? No.

Trump won his debates by turning them into media spectacles, where guys would try to take a shot at him and he would just obliterate them. He has one debating mode, and that's ultra-aggressive.
Think things like Cruz saying that Trump's theme song should be "New York, New York" because he was such a New York liberal, and Trump coming down on him like a thousand pound hammer with that amazing speech about 9/11, which I think is still one of the best moments in politics I've ever seen, or any of the hilarious interactions he had with poor Jeb! Bush.

The times when he tried to play it straight, like his first debate with Hillary, he lost. Remember how awful that first debate was? How low our morale was? And then how in the second he came out swinging hard, bringing up Wikileaks, Bill's rape victims, etc?

Would he be able to use those same ultra-aggressive tactics against a guy like Yang? I don't think he could. Yang's too boring and level-headed for this to really work.

Post: #475

Heh.
Although the pursuit of happiness is a fools errand. Or at least, a very fleeting errand.



So in the end. The 'MATH' doesn't add up.