Post: #26

I see both sides here. Young men do not do a great job seeking out mentors for a variety of reasons, but it is also hard to find willing and capable men from the baby boomer generation. I personally would not feel comfortable doing this unless it was clear the man was open and wanting to serve in this role (which is rare imo). Nonetheless we should own our lives and find what we want.

Strong fathers are another problem - I love my father and our relationship is fine, but i never truly looked up to or respected him. My grandpa was someone I always absolutely respected and admired, but I didnt take advantage of his wisdom enough because I was a know it all young buck and he passed in my early 20s. I try to tell younger men to spend as much time as they can with their grandfathers because that time is fleeting.

Post: #27

There are some things a man needs to learn himself through years of trial and error. A lot of men look back with regret at their lives, lamenting that they wish they knew what they know now when they are younger. But they fall to understand that it's the journey itself that is the reason for their insights. The most important lesson a father can teach his son is to take risks and fail, to fall out of the tree and break his leg. This is why single motherhood is so dangerous, because these lessons can never be taught by a mother.

Post: #28

I don't want to go too much into details....

My parents basically rejected me as a kid. My mother drove me far away to an institution. Something like an orphanage. It was founded and run by Catholic monks, who ran the place for more than 200 years. They however did not force religion on anyone.

This place was a male a dominated environment. I entered the place as a scared little confused kid. I left the place as a strong and confident boy.

Weaknesses where literally beaten out of you. You cry like a sad kid. Beating. You act like a girl. Beating. You do not respect male dominance hierarchy. Beating.

This might sound harsh for some. But this is the way things be going for more than two centuries and the results have always been the same. The place took rejected, lost, damaged and homeless young boys and turned them into strong independent men.

At this place I had about a 100 friends. All boys and all in the same situation. All trying to lift each other up into a better life. All fighting for a place in the world. All learning from each other.

This place is is the reason I am alive. The shit that happend after I left was so bad that I would have committed suicide. But I learned, at this place, how to be strong and never let my "fire" burn out.

My best teacher was an ex army drill instructor who also fought during second world war. He drilled the concepts of respect and discipline into us the hard way. The way you expect an army instructor and veteran to do. I will always be grateful for time he almost broke my arm.

Post: #29

A good mentor is the difference between learning the hard way over a year and learning the hard way over a week.

Here's another one of my trademark shitty analogies.

Anyone remember this game?



Well not having a mentor is like playing this game and only getting a turn once every 6 months. You get your wins, but very, very slowly.

Having a mentor is like having a guy on the other end of the table. You can be a stubborn prick and keep failing on your own terms if you like, or you can get it wrong once and then just ask and save yourself years more of fucking up.

You can spend a year in a shitty relationship wondering what you're doing wrong to make girl-x act like a crazy bitch, OR after a month you can ask your mentor "why does this crazy bitch act crazy" and he can tell you all about how bitches be crazy and you can move on.

You can spend 3 years working hard yet finally figuring out that that the promotion constantly being dangled in front of you like a carrot is never going to materialize, or after 6 months you can ask your mentor "why am I not getting promoted" and he can tell you that nobody is going to promote someone who makes themselves indispensable in their current position.

A mentor is not a panacea for fucking up. They just save you from fucking up for much, much longer than you otherwise might before you wise up.

Post: #30

Have you considered the narcissism of young men today? Most wouldn't even know that they need a mentor, and those few who do are way too proud/stupid to look for one.

Trying to mentor someone without them being explicitly willing it's a recipe for disaster and frustration. The phrase "youth is wasted on the young" is not new but is 1000x more relevant today, since most guys would throw advice right outta the window to preserve their media-fueled ego. Nothing is more unwelcome than unsolicited advice, regardless of its quality.

Those few who are hungry enough to learn, end up learning quick enough one way or another. Look at some of the younger member of this forums. I wouldn't make it today had it not been for the mentoring of many people, most of whom I've never met.

Mentoring shouldn't be taken for granted either. In old movies you often see the eager student having to climb mountains to reach the old master, and even then must convince him he's worthy to be taught.

If young men want to learn, let them seek out the mentor, prove their worth and learn.

Post: #31

I don't agree Leonard. A mentor might point a man in the right direction, but that's all he can do. He might give advice to his protege, and the protege might understand the concept. But he will never understand until this wisdom is internalised by life experience. The harsh reality is that we are all alone in this world, regardless of how close we are to our friends and family. And although the wisdom of our mentors can be the basis or starting point for our own wisdom, our own wisdom must come from within. And it's a long and painful process.

Post: #32

(11-30-2018 08:33 AM)Horus Wrote:  I don't agree Leonard.
...

When you're ready for the answers, I'll be ready to give them.

On a serious note, I suspect willingness to submit to the wisdom of elders is itself a form of learning.

Men that have strong father figures who teach them how to get results will see the benefits of being mentored and seek it out through their lives. Others that never learn those benefits at a young age will not be able to correctly analyze the investment/return of humbling themselves before a teacher. I certainly fall into the latter category and it's only in later life that I realize the enormous benefits to be reaped from simply admitting that you can't do something and asking advice from someone who can. But prior to that acceptance I was taught harshly that demonstrating weakness was to invite attack, which I suspect in today's age of instant social media judgement is a more prevalent mindset than ever before.

Post: #33

When life experience has given me the answers, I'll be happy to let you confirm them

Post: #34

(11-30-2018 08:39 AM)Leonard D Neubache Wrote:  On a serious note, I suspect willingness to submit to the wisdom of elders is itself a form of learning.

Men that have strong father figures who teach them how to get results will see the benefits of being mentored and seek it out through their lives. Others that never learn those benefits at a young age will not be able to correctly analyze the investment/return of humbling themselves before a teacher. I certainly fall into the latter category and it's only in later life that I realize the enormous benefits to be reaped from simply admitting that you can't do something and asking advice from someone who can. But prior to that acceptance I was taught harshly that demonstrating weakness was to invite attack, which I suspect in today's age of instant social media judgement is a more prevalent mindset than ever before.

Time for a rethink. That makes a whole lot of sense.

Post: #35

(11-30-2018 08:20 AM)Leonard D Neubache Wrote:  Having a mentor is like having a guy on the other end of the table. You can be a stubborn prick and keep failing on your own terms if you like, or you can get it wrong once and then just ask and save yourself years more of fucking up.

I agree. When I was 19 I was essentially mentored by this guy in work. He was just an employee. He had no skills or inclination beyond that. But within our industry he was pretty much on the ball with the best ways of doing things, i.e. he'd inherited the best ways of doing things through a web of people who had trialed and errored the best methods. While most people do what they do in every circumstance, turn up, press a few buttons and hope some tasty morsel drops into their mouth. Most people are woefully incompetent at observation and subsequent experimentation. One reason why pretty much every distribution is a bell curve.

Looking back it may have been the most important instances in my life as Leonard alluded to I learned what would at best be years of trial and error, down to: here is the area to work in, do these things.

But then in other areas of my life I had no mentorship, didn't even think of it and my answer was to do nothing or to do things ineffectively.

People make good points about guys having to ask for mentoring and successful men not wanting to mentor everyone.

As Truth Tiger notes 90% of people are bullshit and not worth your time. As mentioned, most people will treat your time as another button they press and hope there is a tasty reward, when there's not they will go back to their hamster wheel.

------------

I think the answer is something like a distributed RVF that operates local chapters with the same aims of self-improvement as here. People turn up and share tips on what's worked for them in business, fitness, women and whatever else. That way there is something in it for everyone and the chaff will roll off.

Post: #36

(11-30-2018 08:39 AM)Leonard D Neubache Wrote:  

(11-30-2018 08:33 AM)Horus Wrote:  I don't agree Leonard.
...

When you're ready for the answers, I'll be ready to give them.

On a serious note, I suspect willingness to submit to the wisdom of elders is itself a form of learning.

Men that have strong father figures who teach them how to get results will see the benefits of being mentored and seek it out through their lives. Others that never learn those benefits at a young age will not be able to correctly analyze the investment/return of humbling themselves before a teacher. I certainly fall into the latter category and it's only in later life that I realize the enormous benefits to be reaped from simply admitting that you can't do something and asking advice from someone who can. But prior to that acceptance I was taught harshly that demonstrating weakness was to invite attack, which I suspect in today's age of instant social media judgement is a more prevalent mindset than ever before.

Very true. Most young men think they know it all - I know 10x more in my early 30s than I did at 18, but i realize how little I actually know. Being able to learn from great men is so important. It doesn't mean blindly listening, but you can always learn something even if it is from others mistakes. I may still be a stubborn fuck, but I recognize it and always try to get better when possible.

Post: #37

(11-30-2018 09:25 AM)Thomas Jackson Wrote:  

(11-30-2018 08:39 AM)Leonard D Neubache Wrote:  

(11-30-2018 08:33 AM)Horus Wrote:  I don't agree Leonard.
...

When you're ready for the answers, I'll be ready to give them.

On a serious note, I suspect willingness to submit to the wisdom of elders is itself a form of learning.

Men that have strong father figures who teach them how to get results will see the benefits of being mentored and seek it out through their lives. Others that never learn those benefits at a young age will not be able to correctly analyze the investment/return of humbling themselves before a teacher. I certainly fall into the latter category and it's only in later life that I realize the enormous benefits to be reaped from simply admitting that you can't do something and asking advice from someone who can. But prior to that acceptance I was taught harshly that demonstrating weakness was to invite attack, which I suspect in today's age of instant social media judgement is a more prevalent mindset than ever before.

Very true. Most young men think they know it all - I know 10x more in my early 30s than I did at 18, but i realize how little I actually know. Being able to learn from great men is so important. It doesn't mean blindly listening, but you can always learn something even if it is from others mistakes. I may still be a stubborn fuck, but I recognize it and always try to get better when possible.

But is it possible for a young man to be receptive to and truly understand an older man's advice when it hasn't been churned through the process of life experience?

Post: #38

Probably an unpopular opinion but I find the whole idea of "mentoring" overrated. What's wrong with just figuring out life on your own? Do good in school, get a decent job, make bank, bang hos off Tinder etc. These are all things you can learn on your own.

Am I missing something?

Post: #39

(11-30-2018 10:33 AM)TigerMandingo Wrote:  Probably an unpopular opinion but I find the whole idea of "mentoring" overrated. What's wrong with just figuring out life on your own? Do good in school, get a decent job, make bank, bang hos off Tinder etc. These are all things you can learn on your own.

Am I missing something?

Yes. Yes you are. You might want to go back and read through the thread. The posts of Leonard D Neubache are of particular interest as they describe, quite clearly, why having a good mentor can be such a blessing/advantage.

You're welcome.

Post: #40

I didn't expect my post to provoke such a reaction. Sounds like you guys were able to 'read between the lines' because we went through the exact same thing. Pink Floyd's film "The Wall" covers the same thing through the mother-son relationship.

It's the difference between jealousy and envy. Jealousy: "He has a nice car, I wish I had one; guess I'd better work harder so I can afford one!" Envy: "He has a nice car; the fucker. I'm going to key it later tonight, so his car will be as shitty as mine."

The problem with narcissism is that life inevitably gets shittier as we age. We aren't as beautiful as we once were, our bodies aren't as reliable, the old opportunities are gone, and we're no longer relevant to the society of marketers who want to distract us with the latest, greatest thing. The parts of life which improve - our wealth of friendships, skills, wisdom, and (hopefully) monetary stability - require hard work and self sacrifice. If wealth has been ignored for short-term greed, you wind up in the same place you were at twenty, only with age dragging you down. Then - when you look at the young - instead of being glad for their opportunities, you're envious of the possibilities that you no longer have.

The chain of civilization was broken at some point. Maybe it was the Greatest Generation that failed to pass on the lessons. Or maybe it was the WW1 generation, utterly decimated in that pointless wart. Either way, neither sex is being taught the most important lessons; we have 15 years of our life stolen from us, as we trial-and-error the things that used to be passed down in our mother's milk.

This is why the manosphere exists: to rebuild that knowledge of our past.

***

An article explaining Boomer Narcissism.

Post: #41

Like redpillage, I’ve pretty much thrown in the towel on mentoring. I tried twice when young men came to me in hopes of emulating my successes (and avoiding my mistakes) in life, but:

They want to lose/gain weight but still eat garbage processed food every day.

They want to be muscular but don’t want to set foot in the gym.

They want to look stylish but don’t want to replace their “comfortable” old clothes.

They want to be perceived as courageous but won’t do anything remotely scary.

They want to meet women but are afraid to approach.

They want to become more socially adept but are terrified of talking to anyone.

They want to move up in their careers but only want to do the absolute minimum actual work.

And when something doesn’t go their way, they just shrug and say “Oh well,” rather than making greater effort.

I’m Gen X, not Boomer. But as G Manifesto might tweet, I’m about to give up on these Millennials. Now get off my lawn, you kids!

Post: #42

(11-30-2018 07:47 AM)redpillage Wrote:  I've tried but the vast majority are not just completely unreceptive, they are outright hostile to anyone over 30. So I gave up and they will have to learn the hard way.

What a bunch of great comments here.

I think our society in general has poo-pooed the idea of mentoring. It's all just another symptom of Feminist man-hating going mainstream.

So young men are discouraged from seeking or accepting mentors...because all they see on TV are evil old white men.

Older men get slammed, and retreat.

Women discourage their sons (perhaps in subtle ways) from seeking out mentors. "After all, most men are predators". You'd be amazed to see how fucking hard it is to just be a soccer coach in your average upper middle class city, which of course is run by soccer moms driving SUVs. They all talk a good game about "wanting those Dads to contribute" but then, they immediately start warning the men about potential lawsuits if you so much as hug a kid who made the goal.

Above all, if you mention the desire to "mentor" young men, you will INEVITABLY get attacked by some batshit feminist/lesbian shithead, spitting saliva as she screeches "why don't you mentor GIRLS you sexist pig"!

Plus, as many have pointed out brilliantly, many Boomer men (and that's me, so I'm pointing a finger at myself) are lazy assholes who got their wealth by selling out their nation's core assets to the Chinese, or by selling their children into debt slavery.

So maybe mentoring won't be revived for that generation. Maybe you young guys will have to skip them and rebuild mentoring on your own.

Post: #43

I've mentored two young men, one mostly in social life / Game, the other in career. The first went from a socially awkward kid to having passions and hobbies, making many male friends and getting dates. The second went from a kid getting exploited and paid peanuts for his technical skills to eventually landing a solid high paying job. They made friends with me through our common sports and asked me for help and advice. Both attended my wedding to pay their respect. It's very rewarding to see how successful they've become.

On the other hand, I used to be part of a local mentoring program for 3 years (I'm out now to protect myself from #metoo) and in all 3 years, we were always told that there were more mentors in the program than there were people seeking mentors. As such, I never actually mentored anyone from it.

The two kids I mentored are quite rare these days. Most are like the ones described by MikeInRealLife. My coach once took his nephew to our lifting club and asked if I could take him under my wings and coach him. I asked what he is like. My coach said "he loves the idea of being strong, doesn't like to work hard." I nodded and expected the kid to quit after 2-3 sessions, he exceeded my expectation and quit after one.

Post: #44

(11-29-2018 03:32 PM)Aurini Wrote:  This is something I have noted often; the silverbacks are mentoring the women, while abandoning the boys.

I was lucky enough (and I sought out) mentoring from older men during my early twenties. They were far from perfect - they'd never been properly mentored, either - but I learned what I could from them.

As noted, part of it has to do with Boomer narcissism, and part of it with the internalization of the "male oppressing women in history" narrative. Fathers seem to be threatened by their sons surpassing them, so they hobble them, while training their daughters to become men.

One of the main roles and KEY responsibilities any father has to his daughters - especially sons who he is trying to show what a man looks like - is giving them every possible opportunity to SURPASS them. That's the whole point of building a legacy, wealth, and an inheritance that grows stronger every generation. (We literally build upon the foundations and resources of our fathers and their fathers.)

My dad always used to tell me that he wanted me to learn from his mistakes and to have every opportunity to succeed. When I do occasionally "surpass" him, it's due to the tools he gave me. My success is his success.

This is what I will do for my two sons - and daughters when they come along. When they hopefully do surpass you, it represents a new pinnacle and achievement in life you can really take pride and glory in. You will have succeeded in raising up a child and training them in the way they should go for the entire world to see. This is why your parents and my parents love grandchildren. It's an incredible example of success in more ways than any of us realize or contemplate.

The real shame to all of this is that we arguably have more tools available to us now than ever before. The boomers wasted them. Gen X continued with the waste. Those of us who know how to use them better not waste them - as many of us millennials are already starting to do.

Furthermore, let this sink in; if fathers won't mentor their sons, the degenerates, losers, villains, gangs, machiavellian manipulaters, bad actors, vicious dangerous women, drug pushers, SJW pimps, victim grievance scammers, etc will. When they so often do we see the carnage and destruction on a daily basis.

Mentors Matter.

So if you can be a mentor, be one. Pick wisely and dont waste your time on those who aren't worth it or want to be a slave to hedonism. Leonard makes this point very well:

Quote:"On a serious note, I suspect willingness to submit to the wisdom of elders is itself a form of learning.

Men that have strong father figures who teach them how to get results will see the benefits of being mentored and seek it out through their lives. Others that never learn those benefits at a young age will not be able to correctly analyze the investment/return of humbling themselves before a teacher.

I certainly fall into the latter category and it's only in later life that I realize the enormous benefits to be reaped from simply admitting that you can't do something and asking advice from someone who can. But prior to that acceptance I was taught harshly that demonstrating weakness was to invite attack, which I suspect in today's age of instant social media judgement is a more prevalent mindset than ever before."

Think of just how far we have to go to impart the notion of wise judgement back into boys, teenagers, and young men - as in when to admit failure to the right people and be able to learn from it.

You literally have to strip all their old presuppositions out that have fueled by daily stories of social media shame based on those who have mistakenly apologize and had thus concluded that no weakness can ever be admitted. (Our culture has basically made the sin of pride virtually insurmountable for oneself to overcome.)

Arguably, this has never been the case across the generations until recently. That's how much work has to be done. That key element that our society lacks - trust - will have to be built slowly over time by a mentor.

This is why Mentoring is such a BIG deal. It's arguably been abandoned in the last two generations. Look back in history at all the great men and you'll notice they all had mentors of some type - the ultimate example of iron sharpening iron.

For some reason our hedonistic culture only bothers with mentors when you've literally drank yourself into ruin and legal troubles in the form of AAA. We all need accountability, inspiration, education, wisdom, and someone willing to tell us exactly how it is - especially in our formative years.

This is what the boy scouts used to do. It's what mens groups, lodges, etc did on a weekly basis. The sooner we get back to this the sooner we can start rebuilding the foundations.

Post: #45

(11-29-2018 03:56 PM)Days of Broken Arrows Wrote:  

(11-29-2018 03:32 PM)Aurini Wrote:  This is something I have noted often; the silverbacks are mentoring the women, while abandoning the boys.

I was lucky enough (and I sought out) mentoring from older men during my early twenties. They were far from perfect - they'd never been properly mentored, either - but I learned what I could from them.

As noted, part of it has to do with Boomer narcissism, and part of it with the internalization of the "male oppressing women in history" narrative. Fathers seem to be threatened by their sons surpassing them, so they hobble them, while training their daughters to become men.

THIS! My lord, 1000 times this. If I could award Aurini 50 Rep Points for that comment, I would.

I went through life mistaking the entire relationship my dad had with me. I was under the impression that if I was successful it would be met with pride and/or praise.

Wrong.

It was always met with derision (and continues to be). For some reason I never made this connection. This started when I started dating and only amped up from there. One really bad example is when I bought a house with my ex-wife. We were proud of it and invited people over that Thanksgiving. The whole time my father never stopped giving me shit in front of everyone -- to the point of bringing up things I did as a teenager.

The problem is that I misinterpreted this kind of criticism. I assumed it was about me being flawed (which I am -- we all are). Turned out it was petty jealousy. He couldn't take that I'd gone out on my own and made something of myself.

But this is difficult to discuss. It comes off as arrogant to say all this. It makes it look like I think of myself as so wonderful that others make it their mission to drag me down.

That's not the case. Jealousy never has a logical target.

The funny thing is that as early as age 16 I was able to see jealousy a mile away....but when it was middle-aged moms resenting their daughters for being better looking!

What I was blind to was the jealousy of middle-aged men towards their sons for having sex with those daughters.

Had someone explained this to me at 18, I'd have had a much easier life. I can't be the only one who experienced this, can I? In a way it shaped my life. Not in a good way.

While its reasonable to be protective and ensuing one's own daughter marries a good man.

And happy when giving her away.

There is something psychologically going on there that's wrong. Especially when perhaps that man's wife is quite a harpy.

It's pretty Freudian.

Post: #46

As someone who is younger (23) I have been very lucky to have several amazing mentors, and the benefit of treasure troves of information being freely available. However the ability to seek out this information has a paradoxical effect.

I question many of the things I'm being told as objectively true. Of course, there's something to be said for taking advice from a battle tested vet, but as some of you wiser men have pointed out, are those older men really anymore knowledgeable?

There is unquestionably something to be said for seeking out capable men in your life, or at least having role models. However I believe the impetus is on the individual (which fits in with my generation's individualism over collectivism motif) to ultimately be his own mentor. Whether that's simply trying and seeing what works, or gathering knowledge beforehand.

At the end of the day, the older I get the more I realize that I should expect very little of most people, regardless of their age. While my opinions are never held strongly and can be swayed with good logic and evidence, should I really submit to the opinions of someone older when the information may sometimes not be culturally or situstionally relevant?

Just my two cents.

Post: #47

TigerMandigo, I agree that there is something to be said for figuring shit out on yourself, but having a solid dude to sit you down and give you the raw, unadulterated truth on a topic is priceless.

You're one of our EE experts, right? Didn't at least one older expat take you under his wing and break down girls, lifestyle and customs for you?

When I showed up in China a lot of the older expats took a liking to me and helped shave years off my learning curve. There are so many things that would have taken me years to figure out that they were able to make digestible in a matter of days.

Now extrapolate that across a generation of guys who are literally shooting in the dark because they don't know any better and you see where we're going with this.

People often bemoan that we have lost ancient knowledge due to the burning of libraries, but we should remember that each time an elder dies and does not get to pass on his life and knowledge, we all lose something.

I think we will see a lot of puzzling knowledge gaps in the future generations because theyre so disconnected from the previous generations. It's quite sad.

Post: #48

(11-30-2018 10:33 AM)TigerMandingo Wrote:  Probably an unpopular opinion but I find the whole idea of "mentoring" overrated. What's wrong with just figuring out life on your own? Do good in school, get a decent job, make bank, bang hos off Tinder etc. These are all things you can learn on your own.

Why not both?

G

Post: #49

(11-30-2018 10:20 AM)Horus Wrote:  

(11-30-2018 09:25 AM)Thomas Jackson Wrote:  

(11-30-2018 08:39 AM)Leonard D Neubache Wrote:  

(11-30-2018 08:33 AM)Horus Wrote:  I don't agree Leonard.
...

When you're ready for the answers, I'll be ready to give them.

On a serious note, I suspect willingness to submit to the wisdom of elders is itself a form of learning.

Men that have strong father figures who teach them how to get results will see the benefits of being mentored and seek it out through their lives. Others that never learn those benefits at a young age will not be able to correctly analyze the investment/return of humbling themselves before a teacher. I certainly fall into the latter category and it's only in later life that I realize the enormous benefits to be reaped from simply admitting that you can't do something and asking advice from someone who can. But prior to that acceptance I was taught harshly that demonstrating weakness was to invite attack, which I suspect in today's age of instant social media judgement is a more prevalent mindset than ever before.

Very true. Most young men think they know it all - I know 10x more in my early 30s than I did at 18, but i realize how little I actually know. Being able to learn from great men is so important. It doesn't mean blindly listening, but you can always learn something even if it is from others mistakes. I may still be a stubborn fuck, but I recognize it and always try to get better when possible.

But is it possible for a young man to be receptive to and truly understand an older man's advice when it hasn't been churned through the process of life experience?

No...

But like prehensile fibers of a sort of "wisdom filter", poignant insights, as advice plant the necessary seeds prerequiste for the most incredibly impactful "aha" moments that make a real difference in a real fucking man's all important world view development. It is incredibly valuable

The older I get the more immutable this fact becomes for me

Post: #50

(11-30-2018 10:33 AM)TigerMandingo Wrote:  Probably an unpopular opinion but I find the whole idea of "mentoring" overrated. What's wrong with just figuring out life on your own? Do good in school, get a decent job, make bank, bang hos off Tinder etc. These are all things you can learn on your own.

Am I missing something?

Yes.

The NFL has trainers, coaches, mentors. The military the same. And these are all gifted young men with innate abilities. They DO figure out most things on their own. But if you have to figure everything out on your own, you'll grow old missing some great opportunities.

Example: The military doesn't let people figure out where the land mines are, "on their own". That would be a waste of great talent. Life is like that, particularly business careers. Lots of metaphorical land mines to step on that will end your career early (or at least have potential to).

That's why i get so pissed at know-it-all newbies to corporate america who say patently silly stuff like in the "work for a lesbian" thread. "I'm just gonna GAME my lesbian manager" is fundamentally like saying "I'm just gonna game that land mine". Both want to rip your arms and legs and balls off. Literally, not figuratively...