Post: #176

(07-08-2018 09:14 PM)MrLemon Wrote:  

(07-08-2018 04:07 PM)Mercenary Wrote:  It still makes no sense to me how they managed to get a whole 3 to 4 kilometers (almost 2 miles) deep into the cave, even if there was zero water when they entered.

These up and down turns in the water that these divers have to take right now, would still have been small, narrow, totally dark, and very steep up and down passageways even if the cave was 100% dry when they went in.

12 kids and 1 adult 3km deep into a pitch black narrow cave network with no equipment, no flashlights and no shoes ?
That's some crazy shit.

I did stuff exactly this crazy as a teenager. Normal teen boy behavior, and as others have pointed out, Thais are pretty mellow people, they just kind of do stuff.

Although, I can't believe they didn't have flashlights. Don't buy that.

I did stuff exactly this crazy as a teenager: no you didn't. To crawl into a passage say, as wide as ten "Mars candybars", could be understandable for daring teenagers, but to crawl in a passage as wide as three Mars candybars and partially flooded on top of that, and in pitch dark, is not "a teen thing". It's something one would do only for profit or pressured by threat, or both.

Post: #177

Quote:and partially flooded on top of that,

The cave was not flooded when they went in

Refer to my last post

Post: #178

(07-09-2018 05:33 AM)Architekt Wrote:  

Quote:and partially flooded on top of that,

The cave was not flooded when they went in

Refer to my last post

We don't know whether it was flooded or not, but even dry, would you, as a teen or adult, crawl through a hole 15 inches wide. That's 38 centimeters. Nobody goes through that without some extreme motivation, and it is not to emulate Cristiano Ronaldo.

I am not saying the official theory is impossible; I am saying, as they entered the caves indeed, it's either for a serious reason, like smuggling (or training in), or through another entry that for some reason got destroyed (tunnel entry getting crushed?) or en entry of which the path leading back to, was lost.

Post: #179

Why should thoughts on how these kids go there be kept to himself?

Are we shutting down freedom of speech or alternative ideas now?

For the record, @goingstrong, I think it's valid point. 6kms into a cave with no shoes and no light. At some point you have to stop digging the hole you've got yourself into.

Post: #180

Quote:We don't know whether it was flooded or not

Yes we do. The reason they ended up so far in is that it started flooding while they were in there, forcing them deeper

Again, do some research before asserting your wild conspiracy theories

Post: #181

(07-09-2018 05:41 AM)Going strong Wrote:  

(07-09-2018 05:33 AM)Architekt Wrote:  

Quote:and partially flooded on top of that,

The cave was not flooded when they went in

Refer to my last post

We don't know whether it was flooded or not, but even dry, would you, as a teen or adult, crawl through a hole 15 inches wide. That's 38 centimeters. Nobody goes through that without some extreme motivation, and it is not to emulate Cristiano Ronaldo.

I am not saying the official theory is impossible; I am saying, as they entered the caves indeed, it's either for a serious reason, like smuggling (or training in), or through another entry that for some reason got destroyed (tunnel entry getting crushed?) or en entry of which the path leading back to, was lost.

I think the extreme motivation to go further in was was avoiding rising water levels

Post: #182

(07-09-2018 05:18 AM)Going strong Wrote:  

(07-09-2018 03:33 AM)churros Wrote:  Just stop.

I don't know why conspiracy theories are tolerated on this forum. It undermines whatever political views might develop. There are important things to be said about gender relations in the Western world, but anyone new would run a mile with all the flat earth shit that goes on here.

OK, so according to you, this thread should consist of just two (truthful and valid, actually) posts. One to say "Oh poor kids, this is tragic", and the second "The rescue divers are heroes", and that would be the end of the discussion. No need for any other post, unless one enters into circle jerking.

I on the other (un-jerking) hand, consider that this forum is made for researching the truth, for exchanging opinions and theories, even daring ones.

It reminds me also, by the way, of the Las Vegas hotel shooting thread. When I (and others, including I think BB) said, "I think we'll never see the video footage of the suspected killer entering the hotel with large bags, and neither will we see the video of the Mexican security dude running wounded in the hotel corridors", I was accused of being dark and paranoid and conspiracy theorist. But guess what, unless I am mistaken, we still have not seen these videos (or have we? I am not following the case anymore)?

This shows that the "conspiracy theories" we read here on the forum, often turn out to be true.

And without the possibility to throw theories around and discuss them as intelligent red-pill individuals, this forum would be neutralized, with teeth removed.

I think people who repeatedly ask for "no more politics, no more conspiracy theories", are trying to neuter the forum, to turn it into a harmless, colorless, tame place. Sad.

Now, back to the case at hand: You are at liberty to think that young male teens, right in the heart of the Golden Triangle, are crawling through terrifying immense caves at immense risks, in order "to train for football" . I still believe this is more of a training for future professional drug smugglers.

And don't get me wrong: it does NOT mean I would deny them the right to be rescued. These poor boys absolutely deserve to be saved, and to be protected by the State, or by Buddhist monks (as in the famous case of which I posted a picture above).

And another free conspiracy theory, if you don't mind: I don't totally believe the official (and, hard to come by) mapping of the caving. Like, this huge messy red of miles of caves extend East North South, but conveniently not West, so as not to cross into Myanmar? Sure, underground caves are polite, they stop just under the border line. I mean, the official mapping might be true, but it might just as well be untrue (as a cave crossing under a borderline would be a huge embarrassment).

It's one thing to look for explanations, especially when something doesn't add up - and yes, while it holds very little relevance here (since being suspicious of one completely unrelated situation doesn't obligate me to being suspicious of every single story that hits the news), I found the Vegas shootings to be highly suspect.

As far as Rawmeo goes, anyone with basic street sense could see the guy was up to something illegal. The extent to his involvement was a surprise to me, but it wasn't hard to see he was into something illegal and sloppy enough about it that he was going to go down eventually. Again, irrelevant to this story here.

The issue with your behavior is you instantly start searching for conspiracy theories in EVERY situation. Even when you have hardly any info to go with, you start constructing elaborate, imaginative stories, somehow assuming you see something others don't even when your info is extremely minute.

Your posts in this thread are a PERFECT EXAMPLE of why you've been rubbing people wrong. The fact that Pattaya Beach was a landmark in a cave far, far, far away from Pattaya rather than the actual sex destination (not that it would have necessarily mattered if it did happen to occur in that area, given the size of the place relative to it's red light district) was such a minor, obvious detail that anyone who'd dug around in this story for a mere five minutes with any kind of seriousness would have figured it out for themselves before jumping on that wild theory. One look at a diagram or a couple news stories should have made this clear.

Yet even being so poorly informed, you thought it was time to point out to the rest of us what was probably going on that the rest of the world seems to be missing??

And then when you did finally figure it out, you scrambled around and came up with a brand new "theory," which you double down on the more people roll their eyes at you.

None of what you have said is anything more than the loosest of speculation, yet you're already marrying yourself to the idea. And like your one-hour Pattaya sex trade theory, it seems to be rooted in rumor and assumption and to not take into account a lot of the details of the situation (many of which we just don't know yet), not to mention the discrepancies that supposedly have you on high alert are mostly just misunderstandings of the situation, the region and culture, and human psychology.

It's like you've traded one pet scandal for another, both of which seem to be pulled directly out of thin air, and now you're fishing for details to make it fit.

The fact that a man who reckons he thinks more clearly than others lacks this much self awareness seriously boggles my mind. It's okay to think critically - it's another to turn over every single rock looking for a big picture and make huge jumps in logic based on murky details to find it. If you can't see that you do it because it's become your hobby and borderline obsession (based on the evolution in your posting history) to do so, I don't really know what else to tell you.

Post: #183

(07-09-2018 05:51 AM)Rocky. Wrote:  

(07-09-2018 05:41 AM)Going strong Wrote:  

(07-09-2018 05:33 AM)Architekt Wrote:  

Quote:and partially flooded on top of that,

The cave was not flooded when they went in

Refer to my last post

We don't know whether it was flooded or not, but even dry, would you, as a teen or adult, crawl through a hole 15 inches wide. That's 38 centimeters. Nobody goes through that without some extreme motivation, and it is not to emulate Cristiano Ronaldo.

I am not saying the official theory is impossible; I am saying, as they entered the caves indeed, it's either for a serious reason, like smuggling (or training in), or through another entry that for some reason got destroyed (tunnel entry getting crushed?) or en entry of which the path leading back to, was lost.

I think the extreme motivation to go further in was was avoiding rising water levels

Now you're making sense. This explanation I could admit as being quite plausible. Stupid behavior it would be (to go further in, instead of turning back as soon as water is spotted), but possible, considering.

Post: #184

(07-09-2018 05:18 AM)Going strong Wrote:  And without the possibility to throw theories around and discuss them as intelligent red-pill individuals, this forum would be neutralized, with teeth removed.

There's a different between being redpill and constantly indulging in wild conspiracy theories.

Post: #185

Sixth boy is out.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/ar...d=12085919

Now they've done it six times they know exactly how to do it successfully, so I'm confident it will be smooth sailing from now on.

Post: #186

Beyond Border, you are being disingenuous. The post you are (repeatedly and with gusto) referring to, I started it by stating "if I am reading the map well", as I was indeed surprised to see the name Pattaya on the map provided by a member.

Post: #187

(07-09-2018 06:19 AM)Going strong Wrote:  Beyond Border, you are being disingenuous. The post you are (repeatedly and with gusto) referring to, I started it by stating "if I am reading the map well", as I was indeed surprised to see the name Pattaya on the map provided by a member.

Post: #188

(07-09-2018 06:19 AM)Going strong Wrote:  Beyond Border, you are being disingenuous. The post you are (repeatedly and with gusto) referring to, I started it by stating "if I am reading the map well", as I was indeed surprised to see the name Pattaya on the map provided by a member.

The disingenuous act here was taking a fact you thought/knew to be wrong and forming an entire theory out of it, all the while completely disregarding all other available information and believing everyone else is wrong

Post: #189

(07-09-2018 06:19 AM)Going strong Wrote:  Beyond Border, you are being disingenuous. The post you are (repeatedly and with gusto) referring to, I started it by stating "if I am reading the map well", as I was indeed surprised to see the name Pattaya on the map provided by a member.

Yes, I too would have been surprised upon finding out that Pattaya, the beachside resort town, was in fact located 2.5km inside a cave.

Post: #190

(07-09-2018 06:13 AM)Suits Wrote:  

(07-09-2018 05:18 AM)Going strong Wrote:  And without the possibility to throw theories around and discuss them as intelligent red-pill individuals, this forum would be neutralized, with teeth removed.

There's a different between being redpill and constantly indulging in wild conspiracy theories.

I don't constantly indulge in conspiracy theories. For example, I disbelieve the conspiracy theory according to which, "the Chinese police" is "triangulating the cell phones of all foreigners" to record foreigners' "thought crimes".

But a conspiracy theory I do believe in, is that, within the Golden Triangle, kids from poor families are much more likely to become drug smugglers than "professional footballers".

So I guess we have to politely agree to disagree. Everybody has his opinions on various "conspiracy theories", some we believe in, others we disbelieve.

Post: #191

(07-09-2018 06:25 AM)big poppa Wrote:  

(07-09-2018 06:19 AM)Going strong Wrote:  Beyond Border, you are being disingenuous. The post you are (repeatedly and with gusto) referring to, I started it by stating "if I am reading the map well", as I was indeed surprised to see the name Pattaya on the map provided by a member.

Yes, I too would have been surprised upon finding out that Pattaya, the beachside resort town, was in fact located 2.5km inside a cave.

Still, I maintain that Pattaya does have many cavities . Most of them flooded all right.

In any case, let's hope all the kids will be rescued, alive and well, whatever their reasons to have been there. And do watch the splendid documentary on the Buddhist monk rescuing Golden Triangle children, of which I posted a picture earlier on this thread.

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0829118/

Post: #192

Actually, GS, the idea that the Chinese public safety bureau is tracking foreigners is not a conspiracy. I have friends who work for a certain corporation in China that is responsible for handling VAST swathes of data. Possibly one of the largest collections of public data in the world.

Within this company's headquarters they have a police office (yes, an office) with officers and civilians who sit down and translate foreigner messages specifically. I could go into further detail on this, but I don't want to doxx myself, but it's all but proven that they know where we (expats in China) are at all times.

Without fail, whenever there is a gathering (party) for foreigners that is off the books, the Chinese show up in force with dozens of officers, arrest everyone and hold them incommunicado while questioning key suspects. The speed with which they find everyone and round them up would startle you.

Anyway, I know this has nothing to do with the thread, but Suits is right to be paranoid. It isn't a matter of whether they know where you are, it's matter of if they care enough to come find you.

Post: #193

There's nothing wrong with a good conspiracy theory, and if this one is true, stranger things have certainly happened. It's an interesting theory, however improbable and lacking in any evidence. But people refuting this theory are not restraining free speech or neutering the forum. You can't expect to put forward such an outlandish theory and not be ridiculed - that goes with the territory. Who knows? In the extremely unlikely case that you're correct, all the mockery you face now will give you even more gloating rights later on.

Post: #194

(07-09-2018 06:30 AM)Going strong Wrote:  So I guess we have to politely agree to disagree.

No, there is no agreement to disagree. You constantly lower the quality of the discourse on this forum, you routine over-estimate your own mental faculties and you've proven yourself committed to repeatedly commenting on topics that you're misinformed, unread and unqualified regarding.

I agree to nothing.

Post: #195

If someone asks me why I don't meet many forum people anymore, I will just send them a link to this thread.

Post: #196

Seven.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/ar...d=12085919



Something truly incredible is happening right now, and everybody is fighting about the stupidest shit.

Post: #197

These kids are going to be stars when they get out, and I hope they are able to profit from it in the long term. As for the coach, I'm glad that there doesn't seem to be a lot of widespread condemnation from the Thai people. Of course he was extremely reckless and he owes an apology to a lot of people. If I were him, I would dedicate the rest of my life to finding some way to repay the debt of my life and the lives of the boys he put at risk.

If something good comes out of this, it's that people will be a lot more wary of going into caves without taking proper precautions. The only reason we know about this case is the extraordinary nature of the story. When I was in Laos many years ago, I heard a story of a kid who drowned inside a cave, so I'm sure there are dozens of deaths every year that we never hear about. The irresponsible actions of the coach may have unwittingly saved many lives in the future.

Post: #198

I agree about the kids making something good out of this.

Also, there's an opportunity here for a tasteless tourist attraction. Don't even tell me the Tham Luang Two-Mile Underground Waterslide wouldn't attract millions of idiots. We're going to have to drill to get it up to American diameter, though.

Post: #199

Reports that an 8th has been rescued! Fantastic that it seems to be going smoothly thus far.

Post: #200

(07-09-2018 06:36 AM)Fortis Wrote:  Actually, GS, the idea that the Chinese public safety bureau is tracking foreigners is not a conspiracy. I have friends who work for a certain corporation in China that is responsible for handling VAST swathes of data. Possibly one of the largest collections of public data in the world.

Within this company's headquarters they have a police office (yes, an office) with officers and civilians who sit down and translate foreigner messages specifically. I could go into further detail on this, but I don't want to doxx myself, but it's all but proven that they know where we (expats in China) are at all times.

Without fail, whenever there is a gathering (party) for foreigners that is off the books, the Chinese show up in force with dozens of officers, arrest everyone and hold them incommunicado while questioning key suspects. The speed with which they find everyone and round them up would startle you.

Anyway, I know this has nothing to do with the thread, but Suits is right to be paranoid. It isn't a matter of whether they know where you are, it's matter of if they care enough to come find you.

Thanks for the information Fortis, it's interesting indeed, and it does surprise me by how much it is widespread, this tracking (if you are completely right) within China. In any case, posts like yours give value to the forum, as they are unusual and show an interesting insider knowledge.

Now we can agree that after all (regarding tracking and its consequences) it's a matter of if they care enough to come find you, and that is where the paranoia might take hold. For example, is a teacher of a foreign language, important enough to warrant actual action by "the Chinese police", barring special situations?

As to Suits, who is relentlessly and hauntingly pestering me on various threads, well, my answer to Suits:

With all due respect (as Fortis has told me that you are a very nice, efficient and respectable person in real life - plus, you kindly gave me a good legal advice by PM some time ago): I am a bit annoyed as to how a man (you, Suits) who is a teacher of English, is patronizing the whole forum. I mean, I respect teachers a lot, having some of them in my close family, but they really have a bothersome professional tendency to well, give lessons in life. So, you might disregard my opinions as much as you want, but thing is, I have got more experience in life than you do, as a teacher (for I have had various unusual professional experiences).

In any case, I won't reply to Suits anymore, as he is obviously aiming at one thing: getting me banned. But I am always glad to hear interesting, polite and well-informed answers, like those of Fortis (or Horus) above.