Post: #76

Merc and other conspiracy theorists- if you'd even bothered to do the tiniest bit of backgound reading on this, you'd have read that teams often do journeys in to this cave system as it is some sort of ritual/experience. I don't know if you're trying to imply that the coach is a paedophile or that this whole thing is a hoax, but I see no reason to not believe the official line. Saying a young child smiling after having outside human contact for the first time in 10 days or so of being sat in the dark is 'suspicious' is just ridiculous.

I read yesterday that it's unfeasible to keep them in there and wait out the rainy season (which starts in full on Sunday), as the pumps simply aren't powerful enough to keep the water level down. Drilling isn't an option if you don't have weeks/months available.

Unless they want to drown, their only chance is to dive. The best way (in my un-expert opinion) would be to sedate them and effectively have them towed by an experienced cave diver. Having said that, could they not just attach a guide-line from the entrance all the way to where the boys are, then they just pull themselves along that?

However if this simply isn't an option and they are going to drown, I hope they give them a humane choice of dying quickly and easily instead of drowning.

Post: #77

(07-07-2018 02:26 AM)Beyond Borders Wrote:  ^ Last article I read mentioned that if he makes it out he may be brought up on some charges, though some of the parents said they don't blame him.

It also said that he's not doing very well as he's been giving his food rations to the others...

I imagine his guilt must be intense. I hope they get him out of there.

Post: #78

(07-07-2018 02:41 AM)britchard Wrote:  Having said that, could they not just attach a guide-line from the entrance all the way to where the boys are, then they just pull themselves along that?

Yep, that's one component definitely being considered if they try to dive them out.

Post: #79

I wonder what the British divers' gut reaction was 10 days ago, 2 miles into a dark cave all of a sudden they see a bunch of dark shapes staring at them. Probably relieved it's a soccer team and not some cult about to go temple-of-doom on them.

Post: #80

The Wall Street Journal finally got some old French surveys of the cave and made the first scale map I've seen:



Look at those cross-sections. Almost any piece of equipment you could bring in there runs the risk of getting stuck and blocking it entirely. I'd had a notion that somewhere in the world there might be a mining drill suitable for opening it up even in wet conditions, but the twists make it look far too impractical to bring something down to the "shoulder-width" area marked Pattaya Beach.

Post: #81

Whatever they do, I hope they do it fast, and are successful. I have no idea what to do, so I ain't gonna chime in.
I just hope everyone gets out alive.
I am sorry for the brave navy seal that died risking his life for others, a real man. I wouldn't have done it, but that's cause I don't know jack shit about caves, especially ones filling with fucking water with a typhoon on the way.

Post: #82

This got me interested in seal training. Check out this video from 2:25, it's some intense shit.

Post: #83

They are currently hoping to find some hidden shafts to make the drilling operation much quicker, but the ever present threat of more rains means that diving out might have to be a last resort.

They are being taught how to breathe and use the scuba equipment. I don't think the kids themselves will do much of the swimming, but instead they will be holding onto one of the experienced divers as he navigates the way out of the caves.

In that scenario, the kids just need to breathe with the tanks, and follow instructions. But like with anything, it's never that easy. Staying completely submerged, for possibly hours, breathing through a mask will be pretty hard, even if you aren't doing much of the actual swimming.

They have to remain calm the whole time and not panic, but I think this would be a lesser concern. Any boy who has enough balls to go into that cave in the first place should have no problem with a little breathing!

Post: #84

(07-07-2018 11:08 AM)glugger Wrote:  They are currently hoping to find some hidden shafts to make the drilling operation much quicker, but the ever present threat of more rains means that diving out might have to be a last resort.

They are being taught how to breathe and use the scuba equipment. I don't think the kids themselves will do much of the swimming, but instead they will be holding onto one of the experienced divers as he navigates the way out of the caves.

In that scenario, the kids just need to breathe with the tanks, and follow instructions. But like with anything, it's never that easy. Staying completely submerged, for possibly hours, breathing through a mask will be pretty hard, even if you aren't doing much of the actual swimming.

They have to remain calm the whole time and not panic, but I think this would be a lesser concern. Any boy who has enough balls to go into that cave in the first place should have no problem with a little breathing!

From what I understand, when dry those caves are like their backyard so they probably have been in them plenty of times outside of flooding.

In the military my understanding is they are trained to view a drowning man/child as the biggest threat to their survival as they are panicking and going crazy, so they are trained how to free themselves from and then get clear of a drowning man/child through offensive techniques if necessary before re engaging to rescue them. So much more dangerous to the rescuers in these terrible and cramped conditions.

Which is kind of why in my totally amateur clueless view they need to give beta blockers to and then cuff these kids so they can keep them under control in whatever circumstance.

At least one of these kids is going to panic, and if it's going to be touch and go whether they drown on the way who could blame them for their adrenaline kicking in.

On the other hand who's gonna be the guy who confronts the parents and media and say they signed off on drugging and restraining their eventually drowned kid.

My views on what the options are could be totally unrealistic but given that countries like the US, GB, FRA etc. are keen to offer their manpower and technical resources in international crisis situations like this I am convinced that there are at least a few US Navy Seals already there and that should the Thais try and swim them out there will be other nationality combat swimmers well versed in handling mines, enemy combatants etc. around them in the water when they try to bring them out.

That isn't a panacea though.

Hope everyone makes it.

Post: #85

I have more hope in them maintaining composure. They are young, reckless, adventure chasing teenagers, so the rescuers are probably being smart and framing it in this way for them. Much harder to panic if you're viewing it as a challenge.

Post: #86

Why are so many people criticising and making fun of Mercenary and calling him a conspiracy theorist for asking questions?

He hasn't said anything one way or the other, just said he is suspicious.

He's doing what you're supposed to do when you read anything, especially something from the lamestream media: Asking questions and reading critically, not just taking something written by a journalist as fact without verifying it. That's what complete MUGS do.

Being able to entertain an idea without necessarily believing in it is a sign of an intelligent and open mind. Being unable to even think about a different reality than to what's presented to you in a newspaper without getting defensive, rude and insulting is a sign of a non functioning sheeple closed mind.

Post: #87

(07-06-2018 10:43 AM)Jetset Wrote:  

(07-06-2018 10:39 AM)Dalaran1991 Wrote:  Like nigga for real? You've been trapped in a cave for 12 fucking days in frozen conditions (we have similar cave in Vietnam, and believe me it's freezing cold), with little food nor water, your coach/leader is barely alive, and you are smiling?

I'd be smiling too if I'd been trapped down there, a rescuer found me, and nobody told me I'm not even close to safety yet. Search operations began after their bicycles were found at the cave entrance.

(07-06-2018 10:26 AM)Mercenary Wrote:  Something about this story stinks to high heaven....why would a coach lead 12 boys many miles into a series of dark caves ?

That's the great joy of cave exploration, I guess.

As I understand it, they went in to carve their names on something and then it started raining, so they had to keep going to avoid the rising water.

Could have been worse, check this guy out. You can't go in the cave anymore because he's still in it:



EDIT: No announcement yet, but seems to be a consensus forming that they're going to try to swim the kids out urgently.

Maaaaaaan faak that. I got queasy watching the movie The Decent (actually pretty good horror flick) when it showed those girls climbing through those narrow gaps in the cave. That is something I want no part of.

As for the kids... there probably wasn't much of a threat when they started strolling in until the rain came an flooding pushed them further in the cave to escape the rising water. Just a case of wrong place wrong time. I hope that this story ends up with a happy outcome but it's not going to be a easy task. I feel bad for those kids... that has to be one scary miserable experience

Post: #88

https://www.cnn.com/2018/07/06/opinions/...index.html

This is the most CNN article I have ever read. They're literally equating Donald Trump and enforcing immigration policy with the kids in Thailand. CNN: "Kids starving to death in a wet dark cave facing impossible odds = The US feeding, sheltering and taking care of children separated from child traffickers and felon illegal parents". Someone could take a watery shit in Uzbekistan and CNN would find a way to use the story to call Trump a racist.

Quote:But as we all hope and push for the rescue of the Thai boys, there's another group of trapped, distressed children who also need rescue: The children of immigrants to the United States who have been separated from their parents and locked away. About these children -- there are thousands -- we know far less, and our government has worked to keep it this way.

Of course, the Thai boys are trapped because of a tragic natural disaster, while the tragedy facing the separated immigrant kids is man-made.


The Trump administration purposely ripped children from their parents' arms in an effort to discourage immigration and to encourage immigrants to return home without claiming asylum status.

Post: #89

Ive been a PADI certified diver for over 25 years now. I actually did my PADI Open Water check out dive in Blue Hole Spring in Bradenton FL (pictured below) and my Advanced Open Water cert off Cozumel a couple of years later. I was obsessed with diving for a few years logging hundreds of dives in the Caribbean, the Gulf of Mexico and South Pacific. Its one of the main reasons Ive traveled to as many places as I have. I originally planned to get my Cave Diver cert but did not...for a reason



That whole area around Bradenton in FL is laced with similar holes and underground springs that create a network of underwater caves. In spite of it being in FL it really is an area with a lot of natural beauty

Quote:Manatee Springs is located just outside of Chiefland on the Lower Suwannee River.

Manatee Spring is a first magnitude, blue spring that has a beautiful run to the Suwannee River. During winter months the spring hosts as many as a 50 manatees at a time on really cold days. There are great recreational opportunities in the park with hiking and bike trails that cover a dozen or more miles through swamps, longleaf pine forests and oak hammocks. The park is riddled with sinkholes—or karst windows—into the Manatee Springs Cave System. Deer, turkeys, fox, owls, eagles, swallow tailed kites and a number of other iconic Florida wildlife species are often spotted in the park—including Florida manatees.

There are literally hundreds of fresh water springs that are connected to to that network and you can usually tell there's a cave because of the dark spot in the water. Some spill into rivers, some eventually into the ocean



Anyway the point is that at each of these springs that have access to a cave network they post signs:





Why? Because its incredibly fucking difficult and incredibly fucking dangerous...even with extensive training (as the death of the Thai Seal diver demonstrates)

Open water scuba diving is generally very very safe with relatively little training. Cave diving however is incredibly dangerous even with a lot of training. I learned this the hard way and had two close calls

One of my dive buddies (Dave) back in the day, a guy I did dozens of dives with was close friends with another guy (Todd) that was a certified Cave Diver (CD) and he in turn knew several other CD's.

Long story short Dave and I once tagged along for a low key cave dive in spring near Manatee Springs (I lived in Miami at the time) . These 4 guys had dozens of cave dives between them and fully geared. There were 6 of us with Dave and I being the only ones not certified CD's but Todd vouched for our competence as divers....(classic recipe for disaster ).

We were in a cave that had an entrance in spring with only about 20 ft of depth. The cave was pretty open and the stretch we were in never got deeper than around 50 -60 ft. The dive plan called for us to only go in to the first "chamber" which was less than 100 yards from the cave entrance at the bottom of the spring. I was 3rd in line with two CD's in front of me, Dave behind me and the other two CD's bring up the rear. When we went in we were swimming against the mild current and pulling on an established guide line as this was a frequently dived cave.

We made it to the first chamber uneventfully, took a few photos, the designated dive master indicated it was time to go back with the same 10 foot spacing as on the way in. About a minute into the return swim I hear the 3 metallic raps that was our agreed upon signal to stop (divers commonly tap their air tank with their dive knife to signal other divers). The two guys in front of me stop and turn around to look. Before I could turn to look behind me there was a cloud of silt that enveloped me and almost instantly blinded me.

It went from something like this :



to this



and it happened in 2-3 seconds

I learned later that Dave who was behind me had kicked the bottom with his fin(a big no no) and the current sent the silt cloud down the tunnel towards the guys in front. What was up to that point a very cool and exciting experience turn instantly terrifying as the lights that were all had were useless in the silt cloud and I could literally not see my hand in front of my face. It was extremely disorienting and scary. I remember telling myself "dont panic or you'll die" and "dont let go of the guide cable or you'll die"...over and over again. It was an intense 1 to maybe 2 minutes before the current cleared enough of the silt that we could see and continue.

I had another incident in a cave later on where I simply turned my head and a rock snagged my regulator hose and yanked the regulator out of my mouth un-unexpectedly. It was only out of my mouth for about 10 seconds before my training kicked in and I recovered the regulator but a second encounter with me forcing myself not to panic in order not die was enough to convince me that, as cool as cave diving is, it wasn't for me.

Its not some major thing that can go wrong but rather the millions of little things that you could never even think of but with deadly consequences that make cave diving so dangerous

The thought of how to navigate this complex network, narrow with a kid that has no training whatsoever and cant even swim is unimaginable.

Is this impossible? No. But its incredibly difficult proposition.

The good news is there are hundreds of years of experience coming together in order create a detailed plan and then execute it. I'm hopeful and optimistic that human ability and spirit will get these kids out safely

Post: #90

(07-06-2018 06:47 AM)mikado Wrote:  You guys think it's that easy to learn to swim.

When we were young my siblings and I did not learn to swim because as we were raised by a single mom who had to work her ass off to provide for us, getting us swimming lessons (not in Physical Éducation course, very few pools exist in Senegal and they were very far from our home) was off her major préoccupations.

Staying anonymous on this, but a lot of activities /skills that 15/16 yo kids have, well I don't. Because the older you become, the more difficult it is to take lessons in these. Especially since I don't have enough money/time to get those skills, lessons for adults are freaking expensive.

Right now my swimming ability is subpar, and there is 50% chance I would be in the same situation as these kids, because I never got over the aquaphobia I developped from lack of experience/mockery/social anxiety.


My gym vas a pool, and I see all the time African people from 20 to 50 who stay on the side of the pool. There are no pools in Africa except for the rich kids. I remember some classmates who would always brag about going to the pool/having rollers/making trips /going to the cinéma...Yeah, only 2 cinemas at the time, quite expensive also. All of this perpetuates a vicious cycle. You are ashamed to not fit in, so you act like you do. You use the excuse of your mother needing you at home when they invite you to go to the pool. And the few times you go (exceptionnally, after spending 3 weeks convincing Mom),knowing you are among the 1% most brillant at school (creating jealousy), some kids take "revenge" by humiliating you and your swimming skills. Everyone laughs at you and you get bullied at school. Rinse and repeat, in college studies.

Swimming and I have a huge hate relationship.

Praying for these guys.

I learned how to swim at a young age. We should remember that almost all swim lessons are taught in pools--controlled environments. For many people, swimming pools are a luxury for the rich only.

Plus, in places like Africa, it is dangerous to go into the river. There are crocodiles and other creatures. One can learn to swim in the ocean, of course. But that is also a very uncontrolled environment with rip currents and other things.

You can also learn to swim in a lake. Natural lakes are rare in many areas though. They are a luxury made by men.

When I was in the sixth grade, we took a monthly trip to the local pool. We were going to learn to swim whether we wanted to or not. I was actually pretty good by then.

I also took a lifesaving class in my teen years. We learned ways to use our clothing as a flotation device. One thing you should definitely do if you find yourself in the water in a bad situation--get naked. When your clothes are wet, they are very, very heavy.

I had a swim coach who became a Navy SEAL. He had went to the Olympic qualifies and actually knew guys like Rowdy Gaines. If you are a SEAL, you are likely in the top 1/1000 of swimmers.

Post: #91

(07-06-2018 08:21 AM)Jetset Wrote:  I struggle with something similar on stories like this.

Where I grew up, "the mines" were a major employer, and also the principle source of family tragedy. It was common enough for families to lose several members and refuse to go in that you could mark a checkbox on job applications refusing underground work upfront. My family was one of those, the decision was passed down through several generations: we don't do that.

To me, because of that experience, recreational cave diving looks like the dumbest hobby imaginable. You want to talk about privilege? Privilege is thinking "LOL, this'll be fun" when you actually just have no idea what you're doing and no regard for all the men smarter and stronger than you who died like that trying to earn a living.

I've been in caves before, but those are the touristy ones like Luray Caverns in Virginia. I don't see much reason to go caving otherwise.

I have a second cousin who had an injury that hurt so bad that he wore tennis shoes to his daughter's wedding. I had a great uncle who died in a coal mine back in the 1930's and left six orphans.

This whole thing reminds me a lot of the Quecreek rescue back in 2002. Nine miners were trapped for over three days after they poked a hole in the wrong place, and the mine filled up with about 75 million of gallons of water. I definitely remember thinking they wouldn't get them out alive.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quecreek_Mine_rescue

They got them out by boring a hole into the place where the miners were. They pulled them out through the bore hole. Of course, that hole was only about 139 feet.

Why have they given up on boring a hole? I have no idea. My guess is that they don't have the equipment to do it. Do they have water pumps? I can only guess that it is just too long for them. Of course, there is also a risk that the hole will fill up with water.

I also remember Copiapó in Chilé in 2010. These miners were underground for over two months. They did have a huge hole though.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Copia...g_accident

Quote:Jesus Christ. Fuck that guy. I hope he survives so the fathers can straighten him out.

This whole thing is reminding me of these rich idiots who try to climb Mount Everest. They find a guide who is an experienced and knowledgeable climber. Then they pay the guide $10,000 or more to lead them up to the top of Mount Everest--no previous climbing experience required.

This stupid jackass took a bunch of kids who didn't know any better, who are told to do whatever the coach tells them to do. Just, what was he thinking? Was this supposed to be some kind of team-building exercise?

I haven't done any deep diving. I hope to do that sometime. Deep diving has its dangers. But if you get in trouble, you can just go up to the surface to save yourself.

With cave diving, you combine the dangers of caving and diving. You are underground and can get disoriented. Many cave divers get confused and go into the wrong cavern when they are trying to get out. The dirt can shift and can bury when you are underwater. It is just a way for spoiled brats to get thrills. If we are lucky, they die and don't kill anyone else.

Post: #92

(07-07-2018 03:21 PM)PapayaTapper Wrote:  

I learned to dive at that site... I was around 20 years old and remember seeing that sign and sticking my head just a foot past it and seeing total darkness. Scared the shit out of me.

Post: #93

(07-06-2018 11:14 AM)TravelerKai Wrote:  I'm surprised that cave is not full of deadly snakes. Thailand is full of dangerous snakes, scorpions, etc. It's like an Asian Style Australia or something. A reticulated python or a King Cobra would not find a place like that comfortable? Russell's vipers?

The answer to that is simple really. Snakes are not stupid. They probably have some type of clock/calendar, and they have enough sense to stay away from caves because the monsoons are coming.

Human beings, of course, are stupid enough to do this. And that's why we are talking about this. Human beings are the only creatures stupid enough to get caught in a situation like this.

It's like the canary in the coal mine. Miners used to take canaries into mines. If the canary died, it meant humans should get out. When you don't see life somewhere, you might think: "Humans aren't supposed to be here." The brilliant coach ignored all that.

Post: #94

(07-07-2018 04:28 PM)puckerman Wrote:  

(07-06-2018 11:14 AM)TravelerKai Wrote:  I'm surprised that cave is not full of deadly snakes. Thailand is full of dangerous snakes, scorpions, etc. It's like an Asian Style Australia or something. A reticulated python or a King Cobra would not find a place like that comfortable? Russell's vipers?

The answer to that is simple really. Snakes are not stupid. They probably have some type of clock/calendar, and they have enough sense to stay away from caves because the monsoons are coming.

Human beings, of course, are stupid enough to do this. And that's why we are talking about this. Human beings are the only creatures stupid enough to get caught in a situation like this.

It's like the canary in the coal mine. Miners used to take canaries into mines. If the canary died, it meant humans should get out. When you don't see life somewhere, you might think: "Humans aren't supposed to be here." The brilliant coach ignored all that.

Actually there are lots and lots of animal skeletons and fossils found in both wet and dry caves all over the world.

Like I wrote in my post above its the little unexpected things that can make and otherwise safe situation turn deadly. In the case of the Thai cave it was an early, heavy rain fall

Post: #95

+1 PapayaTapper

I've snorkelled caves and cenotes before, but I have no inclination to dive them. The simple fact being that there is a ceiling of rock over your head that prevents you from surfacing in the event shit hits the fan. I would much rather wreck dive, and will likely look into certification for this in the near future.

Anyone that is claiming it would be easy to dive the kids out has never put on a mask and regulator, you can guarantee that.

Post: #96

We have a cave in Croatia that routinely kills experienced divers, Poganica cave at the island of Šolta. It's an underwater cave with an entrance at 8 meters of depth consisting of a vertical 9-meter long, 1,5-meter wide tunnel branching off into a labyrinth descending up to 60 meters, and the seabed is mostly loose mud and sand that's easily kicked up.





Most recently a pair of certified diving instructors with decades of experience lost their way in the labyrinth and drowned, and a Czech professional diver committed suicide with his knife upon realizing that he couldn't locate the exit tunnel.

Cave exploration, let alone cave diving, is one of the most dangerous and daring activities there is for sure. I don't think I could allow my kids to participate in such a thing, no matter how manly and character-building of an activity it was.

Post: #97

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.yahoo.c...ories.html

It appears they have been teaching the kids how to use diving equipment are are going to attempt to escort them out one by one this weekend.

Post: #98

All I know is if they get out they'll be set for life as they'll be offered a book/movie deal. That's how the world works.

Post: #99

Teaching kids who don't know how to swim to scuba dive has a low probability of success. I gather a large percentage of them might have a fear of water, being unable to swim. What more, having to swim through an enclosed area and being unable to see shit.

Everyone on the ground knows that time is running out and a race against time. Unfortunately, someone will die. Right now, it's an exercise in limiting the number of casualties.

Quote:“[The next] three to four days from now is the most favourable time for the operation and rescue mission using one of the action plans,” [Narongsak Osatanakorn, the governor of Chiang Rai province] told a press conference at the cave site. “If we wait too long, we don’t know how much rainwater will come.”

If the risk from either the air or water increased “to the point that we cannot accept, we will make decision”, he said.

“We are racing against time and shoulder all the expectations.”

As it is, right now, I think they are proceeding with the dive, and briefing the parents:

https://twitter.com/richardbarrow/status...7605379072

Quote:It looks like the rescue of the 13 at #ThamLuang is going to take place today. All media and anyone not taking part in the rescue have been told to leave.

https://twitter.com/richardbarrow/status...7651973120

Quote:7:28am Deputy Governor leading the parents and relations of the missing 13 to a meeting at #ThamLuang

Post: #100

Apparently four kids are out.