Post: #51

Always wondered why some countries can't get their shit together and make it mandatory for children to learn to swim. Some countries force you by law to send your kids to swimming class starting at age 6.

Hope they make it out.

--------------

And yes - the entire trip sounds like one irresponsible idea following the next.

What's the next school trip - ISIS-Syria territories?

I once led and informal group of teens into the mountains. Then we encountered a spot where we had to jump over a crevice. Not making it meant that you could drop to your death and we were not equipped to secure it properly. I had to argue with my friend to turn around, because we are not risking the lives of a bunch of younger teens only because we can likely make it through on our own.

Those cave trips are relatively dangerous even if you are experienced. I knew a guy who does it for a hobby - no joke - lots of things can go wrong.

Post: #52

It looks to me that a tunnel will have to be drilled from the surface down to where the kids are. This will take time. Until then, some kind of hose will have to be laid out in order to get air and drinking water to these kids.

The question goes begging: Why the F were these kids in this cave to begin with?

Post: #53

I don't get the point of your post Dalaran1991, are you trying to say that this event isn't happening? As TK said, Thai people smile a lot. They're a friendly and warm people. You can pass bottles of water and MREs through the smaller passages in the cave, run a line to the kids nail it down and then dolly it through the underwater parts after a driver has gone through and set it up.

RIP to the Thai SEAL. The guy wasn't even on active duty anymore. Came back to try to save the kids. Very sad.

I explored a few caves a while in Vietnam, nothing as narrow as this one though and when I was younger I went into a really small and narrow cave my friends and I found in a forest. We crawled through it and the whole time I was banging my helmet along the rock walls and ceilings going through. The small caves are not fun.

Also almost drowned not too long ago swimming far out of shore while in Brazil into the waves with no safety gear after hiking for 2 hours. Drowning is no joke, stay safe boys!

Post: #54

(07-06-2018 12:25 PM)Abelard Lindsey Wrote:  It looks to me that a tunnel will have to be drilled from the surface down to where the kids are. This will take time. Until then, some kind of hose will have to be laid out in order to get air and drinking water to these kids.

The question goes begging: Why the F were these kids in this cave to begin with?

The drilling thing poses other challenges.

Remember the miners? many different attempts were made to do that and it took many varied approaches before success. This is a whole other magnitude due to increased drilling depth and the small matter of keeping the boys alive for the months it would take.

Post: #55

(07-06-2018 12:50 PM)Saweeep Wrote:  

(07-06-2018 12:25 PM)Abelard Lindsey Wrote:  It looks to me that a tunnel will have to be drilled from the surface down to where the kids are. This will take time. Until then, some kind of hose will have to be laid out in order to get air and drinking water to these kids.

The question goes begging: Why the F were these kids in this cave to begin with?

The drilling thing poses other challenges.

Remember the miners? many different attempts were made to do that and it took many varied approaches before success. This is a whole other magnitude due to increased drilling depth and the small matter of keeping the boys alive for the months it would take.

The major differences between this case and the Chilean miners is going to be the humidity and water in the cave, as well as the ability to deliver supplies and the fact that they're children. The water is going to spread disease very quickly.

Post: #56

Even if you're a decent swimmer and have a small enough frame to squeeze through "a passage no bigger than a washing machine door", you shouldn't be anywhere near that cave. That place looks like a good site for a maximum-security prison/torture-chamber, not a tourist attraction.

Post: #57

Everyone talking about learning to swim is missing the point. Just because you can swim doesn't mean anything in a situation like this. Can anyone here swim for five hours straight? Unless you swim regularly I doubt you will even have the fitness to manage even two hours of constant swimming.

Thirty minutes to one hour of constant swimming in these conditions will be difficult to most people even if they have a decent level of fitness and took hundreds of swimming lessons as a kid. A lot of this is underwater so you need to hold your breath too, limiting the amount you can swim even more.

Post: #58

Yeah, I'm not sure why guys like ChicagoFire even bother posting. I'm not a perfect poster, but we need to emphasize to members that the whole point of the forum is to share information from a standpoint of actual knowledge or experience.

It's the same thing in the Travel forum when guys like TravelMuseums were speculating on places they've never been or didnt even bother to read about.

Post: #59

They have been in there since 23 June.
They were found by British divers on 2 July.

That's 10 days with no food, only dirty cave water to drink, no bathroom to piss or shit, nothing to sleep on or to keep warm, and no source of light...so you have no idea if it's day or night, or if minutes, hours or days have passed.

Surprised they have lasted this long to be honest.


Apparently their shoes and bags were found halfway into the cave.
Why would they take their shoes off, and abandon their bags halfway into a cave ?
A lot of this doesn't make sense right now.
Story is still very fishy.

Post: #60

(07-06-2018 01:16 PM)Mercenary Wrote:  only dirty cave water to drink

I thought caves are known for their exceptionally pure water. Unless this is a brackish type of cave.

Post: #61

(07-06-2018 01:29 PM)Handsome Creepy Eel Wrote:  

(07-06-2018 01:16 PM)Mercenary Wrote:  only dirty cave water to drink

I thought caves are known for their exceptionally pure water. Unless this is a brackish type of cave.

Limestone caves actually purify water. I have no idea if this cave is that kind of rock.

Post: #62

Some headcam video footage which shows how flooded and narrow and small, some parts are inside the caves.

Post: #63

(07-06-2018 01:16 PM)Mercenary Wrote:  Apparently their shoes and bags were found halfway into the cave.
Why would they take their shoes off, and abandon their bags halfway into a cave ?
A lot of this doesn't make sense right now.
Story is still very fishy.

What do you mean by it doesn't make sense?

Come on. These things move fast and nobody really knows what is going on; that's how things are in the real world when people are facing tragedy.

There's nothing even remotely "fishy" about this. It's a god awful accidental state of affairs. What possible conspiracy could this be??

The theory is that they tried to return and were trapped by water that damaged the cave walls...they were essentially running for their lives...their school books or whatever rubbish was in their bags would just slow them down.

Post: #64

(07-06-2018 01:16 PM)Mercenary Wrote:  They have been in there since 23 June.
They were found by British divers on 2 July.

That's 10 days with no food, only dirty cave water to drink, no bathroom to piss or shit, nothing to sleep on or to keep warm, and no source of light...so you have no idea if it's day or night, or if minutes, hours or days have passed.

Surprised they have lasted this long to be honest.


Apparently their shoes and bags were found halfway into the cave.
Why would they take their shoes off, and abandon their bags halfway into a cave ?
A lot of this doesn't make sense right now.
Story is still very fishy.

The thing that really jumps out at me is that this "Youth Soccer Coach" keeps taking these kids on "outings" far from their parents. Kids that play soccer usually like to play soccer, not go spelunking. I hear they care a fair amount about winning as well....which you get by practicing, not spelunking. I hope he is thoroughly interrogated at the end of this.

Post: #65

(07-06-2018 02:01 PM)DarkTriad Wrote:  

(07-06-2018 01:16 PM)Mercenary Wrote:  They have been in there since 23 June.
They were found by British divers on 2 July.

That's 10 days with no food, only dirty cave water to drink, no bathroom to piss or shit, nothing to sleep on or to keep warm, and no source of light...so you have no idea if it's day or night, or if minutes, hours or days have passed.

Surprised they have lasted this long to be honest.


Apparently their shoes and bags were found halfway into the cave.
Why would they take their shoes off, and abandon their bags halfway into a cave ?
A lot of this doesn't make sense right now.
Story is still very fishy.

The thing that really jumps out at me is that this "Youth Soccer Coach" keeps taking these kids on "outings" far from their parents. Kids that play soccer usually like to play soccer, not go spelunking. I hear they care a fair amount about winning as well....which you get by practicing, not spelunking. I hope he is thoroughly interrogated at the end of this.

Have you spent much Thailand, with Thais?

Post: #66

(07-06-2018 01:55 PM)Saweeep Wrote:  There's nothing even remotely "fishy" about this. It's a god awful accidental state of affairs. What possible conspiracy could this be??

You have to understand, this is the Everything Else forum.

Post: #67

(07-06-2018 02:05 PM)Saweeep Wrote:  

(07-06-2018 02:01 PM)DarkTriad Wrote:  

(07-06-2018 01:16 PM)Mercenary Wrote:  They have been in there since 23 June.
They were found by British divers on 2 July.

That's 10 days with no food, only dirty cave water to drink, no bathroom to piss or shit, nothing to sleep on or to keep warm, and no source of light...so you have no idea if it's day or night, or if minutes, hours or days have passed.

Surprised they have lasted this long to be honest.


Apparently their shoes and bags were found halfway into the cave.
Why would they take their shoes off, and abandon their bags halfway into a cave ?
A lot of this doesn't make sense right now.
Story is still very fishy.

The thing that really jumps out at me is that this "Youth Soccer Coach" keeps taking these kids on "outings" far from their parents. Kids that play soccer usually like to play soccer, not go spelunking. I hear they care a fair amount about winning as well....which you get by practicing, not spelunking. I hope he is thoroughly interrogated at the end of this.

Have you spent much Thailand, with Thais?

About 4 months, but not with children. In Thailand, is it common for sports coaches to take young boys on multiple outdoors trips away from their parents, for things that have nothing to do with their sport? Back home, this would definitely make me suspicious. Road trips for competition make sense, interconnecting caves, not so much.

Post: #68

(07-06-2018 03:27 PM)DarkTriad Wrote:  

(07-06-2018 02:05 PM)Saweeep Wrote:  

(07-06-2018 02:01 PM)DarkTriad Wrote:  

(07-06-2018 01:16 PM)Mercenary Wrote:  They have been in there since 23 June.
They were found by British divers on 2 July.

That's 10 days with no food, only dirty cave water to drink, no bathroom to piss or shit, nothing to sleep on or to keep warm, and no source of light...so you have no idea if it's day or night, or if minutes, hours or days have passed.

Surprised they have lasted this long to be honest.


Apparently their shoes and bags were found halfway into the cave.
Why would they take their shoes off, and abandon their bags halfway into a cave ?
A lot of this doesn't make sense right now.
Story is still very fishy.

The thing that really jumps out at me is that this "Youth Soccer Coach" keeps taking these kids on "outings" far from their parents. Kids that play soccer usually like to play soccer, not go spelunking. I hear they care a fair amount about winning as well....which you get by practicing, not spelunking. I hope he is thoroughly interrogated at the end of this.

Have you spent much Thailand, with Thais?

About 4 months, but not with children. In Thailand, is it common for sports coaches to take young boys on multiple outdoors trips away from their parents, for things that have nothing to do with their sport? Back home, this would definitely make me suspicious. Road trips for competition make sense, interconnecting caves, not so much.

Perfectly normal.

There is a big wide world out there that doesn't fear paedophiles lurking behind every bush.

Post: #69

(07-06-2018 08:55 AM)Cobra Wrote:  

(07-06-2018 05:50 AM)Macumazahn Wrote:  I've been avoiding it.

Egregious, toxic masculinity everywhere.

All the news reports are full of men; moving earth, pumping water and operating machinery in an incredibly difficult environment.

I can barely stand to watch it.

As though swimming a couple of miles in a flooded cave is any big deal.

They barely give any airtime to the most important member of the team. The female US Air Force Captain from the PR team.

While I hate feminism and man hate just the same, I'd rather sometimes, we leave the political/feminist/race aspects out of threads with tragedy and/or children involved.

It's disconcerting to be honest.

I can appreciate your sentiment.

My post was 25% black humour / 75% cynicism.

Sometimes, I just need to vent and this forum is about the only place I can do it and not be ostracised.

Post: #70

(07-06-2018 11:54 AM)Dodgy Wrote:  

(07-06-2018 11:11 AM)TravelerKai Wrote:  Dalaran also forgets that Thailand is the Land of Smiles. They just like to be positive as much as possible. They know they fucked up.

I blame that coach. That was a dumb idea and he is old enough to know better but then again..... he is 25 which these days is hardly mature anywhere on Earth for a male.

Well the coach is 25 and Thai, which makes it even worse. I love Thailand, I love the culture and the people, but I'll also admit that they're not the brightest bulbs on the global string. They also have a genius to turn something simple, like making a cappuccino or going to the beach, into a complete clusterfuck. The trapped kids and coach were likely not intelligence and self-aware enough to understand the seriousness of the situation when they started and they probably still don't understand the full implications of their predicament. And I doubt the Thai rescue workers are telling them when they communicate with them.

While I like to play "let's point out the shortcomings of the retarded foreigners" as much as anyone else, I also have to chalk a lot of this up to simple bad luck. Coulda shoulda seen it coming? yeah, but probably nothing's going to happen.

As I understood it, it was a part of a team initiation rite, get to the end of the cave and back. How many people here have done something that would be perfectly fine with 99% likelihood as has in the past, but otherwise could have catastrophic consequences for social proof, inclusivity, or even for just convenience?

It reminded me of some passage I read in Scott's Antarctic expedition like 100 years ago. Taking a short cut across an ice flow and camping over night. They had gone over it before, they'd only be out there a matter of hours, so it seemed like a reasonable risk. Naturally the ice broke off, they found themselves floating out to sea, and by mere chance it happened to get close enough again to jump off.

Same thing here. To accomplish such a feat, you need almost the perfectly wrong timing. Over the rainy season timeline of a year, literally a few hours sooner or later would have avoided this whole thing. They either would have been able to exit fine beating the rains, or not be able to get in there in the first place due to them already having started. Over the time span of thousands of hours, there was maybe a several hour window in which to orchestrate this.

Post: #71

When I was a kid we used to dare each other to do stupid shit all the time that I today know could have left me scarred for life. Not going to hate on anyone that challenges themselves in today's coddled world. Anyone that does need to adjust their soy intake.

Post: #72

^ I hear this loud and clear.

Among all the other outlandish, not so brilliant things we used to get up to, my younger brother and I used to run across the slightly domed railing of this bridge down the road from our house on boring summer afternoons:

   

I believe it spans few hundred feet in the air. There were two bridges there in succession and we'd run down both of them.

Thinking back sometimes, I often feel a bit of horror pondering the risk we were taking for a cheap adrenaline rush - mostly thinking what if my younger brother had slipped and fallen because he was emulating my crazy ass. I doubt I'd have ever forgiven myself. I doubt my hard-working mother would have ever forgiven herself to think we could be responsible for each other without adult supervision.

Then again, Jordan Peterson talks in 12 Rules for Life why this type of daredevil activity is important for young males in a society like ours, or any society, for that matter. I think we should find ways to channel it that aren't quite so risky and pointless, which is largely owed to our culture's inability to properly guide male development, but I also largely agree with him.

I remember one time in Laos, a kid younger than these ones served as my GUIDE in a cave. They'd wait outside caves that were completely undeveloped and take travelers through for a fee - there were passages we had to crawl through with the rock scraping our backs, and there were pits the kid would toss a rock down so we could listen to it fall and fall and fall before maybe hitting bottom. At times he would jokingly disappear and act like he was going to abandon me there...little fucker. lol

Point being that youngsters in this part of the world often live very daring lives and take a lot of risks with little oversight from adults. Highly dependent on social class, of course.

It might be hard to imagine it if you didn't spend your childhood outdoors. But if I'd have grown up around caves, I have no doubt my circle of brothers and friends and I would have been burrowing around in them, pushing the limits and going places we really shouldn't go. If you grew up in an urban area you probably challenged yourself in other ways.

It's the nature of young males to do so.

In any case, none of this is to detract from the important part here: I hope someone a lot smarter than me comes up with a way to get these kids, and the coach, out of there safe and sound. It's not looking very hopeful, but there are a lot of top minds getting involved, and I'm really keeping my fingers crossed for a happy ending here.

Post: #73

I hope the coach doesn't get shit on too bad. He's young himself (25), and probably ran that cave countless times before. Yes, it wasn't the brightest thing to do but it sounds like its 99% just bad luck. I think its great that those kids had a crew and an adult male to look up to... that shit is unfortunately hard to find in the west.

Post: #74

^ Last article I read mentioned that if he makes it out he may be brought up on some charges, though some of the parents said they don't blame him.

It also said that he's not doing very well as he's been giving his food rations to the others...

Post: #75

Oxygen levels are running low.
They are 4 km deep.

Cant they bring a hose?

Obviously not easy. They need divers to bring 50 meters each, that's 80 dives to get in. Bring a pressure gauge into the cave to see if all the oxygen pumped in will increase the pressure, or if there are some natural channels for it to get out.

If pressure increase in cave, means eventually they need to run a hose out to the nearest free point to release the overpressure.

For part of the section to save strain on divers, get a few of these out:
Rechargeable, get some electricity in would be next operation so they wont have to bring them all the way out.


At the same time mobilize more pumps to drain the cage.

Food / communication supple to cage shouldn't be top priority at this point.