Post: #1

Hey guys, would love to hear your take on this.

When pulling girls home, sometimes I get regular LMR and I do the regular LMR dance (i.e. freeze out, try again, repeat) and mostly it works. But other times I get something I used to think was LMR but now I’m wondering if it’s something else.

Basically some girls come home with absolutely ZERO intention of smashing. With the regular LMR girls I sense their inner struggle, their building horniness vs their ASD kicking in; they tell me to stop but each time I re-engage, I can get a step further than before, slowly baby stepping the escalation. But with this other type, they don’t get horny at all. I can’t get past the makeout, which tends to be soft, sometimes even without tongue. They cut things off before it can build. I can’t baby step shit.

I'm treating this behavior like regular LMR (pull out, try again later), but regular LMR tactics don't work at all for me in these cases. I never smash and most of the time it results in ghosting after the date, even if these girls liked me enough to kiss me and come home with me. Last time it happened, while I was re-engaging after a freeze out, the girl even said “Has this ever worked for you?”; implying it was socially retarded to try smash again after a couple of failed attempts.

I'm working under the assumption that if she comes home she's DTF. Am I wrong about this? Maybe I’m doing something wrong to trigger this behavior? Am I over-escalating and triggering the post-date ghosting? I’m curious if this happened to anyone else and if there are any thoughts or advice you could share.

Thanks for reading.

Post: #2

Not enough details to go by in these special cases. Can you give us a play-by-play example?

Maybe some of these girls were rape victims at a young age, or have some kind of hang up about sex.

Or maybe you did or said something that turned her off, or changed her mind about smashing after she agreed to go to your place.

Maybe your place stinks. Maybe she was alarmed by a few stray hairs of another girl in your bathroom.

We don’t know and can’t tell from your post unless you give us more details.

Post: #3

I agree with CleanSlate that we need more detail. However, for a preliminary answer, I will assume that the setting is that you're taking girls home either for an ONS after meeting the same night, or after a first date at a bar/lounge.

Your assumption of "if she comes home, she's DTF" is correct for the most part in that setting. However, here's a few things I can think of that could be the problem:

1) You aren't building enough sexual tension during the date or night. Many people say that you shouldn't make out at the venue, which has logic to it (though personally I do it most of the time and it works fine), but at the very least, you should be breaking the physical barrier with subtle touching ("kino") before you take her home. You can't go from no sexuality whatsoever to fucking, it just doesn't work that way. I would work on building tension with physical contact, flirting, and even making out before going back to your spot. Of course you may still get LMR that way, but at least its clear that you gave it a real shot.

2) Something you're doing between the venue and your spot makes them lose attraction. One likely culprit is a long drive/uber from venue to your crib. You need to keep her entertained and not let the energy die out, and preferably pick close venues. When at the house, don't escalate immediately (unless this is a layup where she's begging for your dick). Play some good music, let her pick some tracks, make drinks, show her around your place, and ease into it.

3) You're dealing with younger/inexperienced chicks. A few years back when Tinder was in full force out here, I was 22 and was regularly bringing back 18/19 year old girls who had likely been with only a handful of guys before me (one later admitted she was a virgin). Not all of them would fuck, mainly because they got jittery and I scared the cat. It happens, just ease up and tell her its all good. I usually got day 2s after this and would usually smash then.

4) You're pushing too hard and coming across too strong. From what I have experienced, the "LMR dance" is more of an art than a science; every girl is different, and some get turned off when a guy presses too hard repeatedly. Especially in the culture that we're in now, I'm usually pretty careful with trying too hard to drive past LMR. If she isn't down after a few attempts, I'll charge it to the game and move on.

Post: #4

I would say that if a girl goes home with you she considers smashing an option unless you gave off some gay vibes.

Anyway, if a girl stops you you have gone a bit too far. You did more then she desired in that moment. Her ASD can only kick in if her horniness has temporarily decreased.

Instead of escalating until she stops you, stop escalating when you see she is getting hornier. Sound counter-intutive, I know. Let's give an example.

You take her home and start kissing her. She gets into it. You slowly pull out as you make strong and horny eye contact. If she pulls you back in or kiss you again, you stop her. Push her back and make strong eye contact.

1. You've taken control of the tempo. That's a turn on for her
2. Instead of jumping her at the first chance, you are more in control then her of your horniness. That's a turn on for her
3. She knows you want to fuck but she doesn't know what's going to happen next. That's a turn on for her
4. You stopped at a point that her horniness was reaching it's peak. She is going to want more. The ASD voice in the back of her mind is no issue because it's pushed away by her horniness

If girls seem completely taken aback by an attempt to kiss, it's probably coming out of nowhere for her. Start lower on the escelation ladder:
- Touch her briefly
- Make strong eye contact
- Talk with a low, slow voice
- Let her talk and leave silences
- Set a mood in your house that implicates sex. (Dimmed lights, music, a glass of wine)

Post: #5

Not every girl who goes home with you is dtf.

There is a certain moment when you try to escalate, called POINT OF NO RETURN. If you cross it too soon and she's not ok with going further (yet) then she will resist super hard and probably you won't ont see her again.

You need to recognize how ready she is for having sex. When you feel she will resist then stay at that level and do not push it.

Its best to just take 2 steps forward 1 step back. This step back is not stopping for a few seconds only to go forward again. It is step BACK. It is meant to release the tension a bit to make it grow and simmer inside the girl. For example you go in to kiss subtly then turn and feed her strawberries slowly and how her lips lick them. You hold that deep eye contact flirt and then kiss again maybe more passionatelly. Stuff like that

Post: #6

I'll have to admit that I've yet to read the posts, I just saw the thread title and figured on simply chiming on by saying that one must push the escalation as far as it can be done so, within the scope of feasibility, meaning . . . as long as she's having it.

Post: #7

In terms of techniques to be used against a last minute resistance, freeze out has never really worked for me. What I do is get naked first. Remove the shirt and then I will let her touch my abs and see how horny she can get. They usually loosen up, very effective.

Post: #8

Some girls are DTF but they won't fuck you when they go home. They want to feel like they were chased so they'll resist their urges and not put out for a few dates. Happens sometimes, fucks with my head every time. I prefer girls who fuck on the first date.

Post: #9

An important factor is the culture of the respective country.
I live in a low crime country in which people only invite close friends to their home. Every time I took a girl to my place, I banged her. Most probably girls know we're not not just going to chill.
However, in some third world countries it is common that people visit each other without announcing the visit beforehand. Kind of a I'm there when I arrived mentality. In such countries, it is super easy to get girls to your place, but girls don't expect being smashed which results in more LMR.

Post: #10

You're getting LMR because they don't feel that it is SOCIALLY OK to mess around with you fully.

Good verbal stuff that shows you are non-judgemental, a good lay and that you have discretion will fix this.

You also need calibration to know what her hang ups are and adjust verbals to address those.

I wrote about it here: http://caesarisblack.com/three-keys/

Post: #11

Most curious. In the Very Catholic environment I grew up in, this was common, but it was a long time ago. I can’t imagine this happening today in the Western world.

Post: #12

Thanks guys, your advice is very helpful. Definitely had a few “aha” moments while reading your input. Seems like I need to try being less pushy, and calibrate better at home. Just in case somebody is inclined to take a look I included four examples below, but everybody’s been quite generous with their time already and I already feel like I learned some important lessons.

1) 22 year-old girl I met on Tinder. First date at a bar, vibe was fun, kiss closed but couldn’t pull. Second date at a bar, also a fun vibe and makeout. Then we go home to have another drink. After the drink I initiate the makeout and she lets me kiss her but pulls out the second I try to escalate some more. I keep talking like nothing happened and try again later a few times, but she only allows Disney-movie kissing. Then she says she needs to go home. She ghosted me after that.

2) 35 year-old, single mom I met on Tinder (I know I know, I’m 40 and I deal with that shit a lot). First date at a bar. We talk for a couple of hours and vibe well, but no makeout. I still go for the pull and she agrees without problem. We go home, have some coffee, chat a bit and I go for the kiss. She’s into it but only the kiss, same as the girl above. This is the one who even said “Has this ever worked for you?” (i.e. going for the smash more than one time). Also while I’m running a hand along her leg she says “My legs are closed, don’t you see?”. I brush these things off with jokes and the vibe remains fun, we even keep discovering more things in common (like, she compliments me for having a Game of Thrones tattoo). Then I walk her home because I have an appointment nearby. The vibe remains fun as we keep talking about movies/TV shows (we’re both movie geeks). We kiss goodbye. She answered back a few texts the following week, but the temperature totally changed and I could never set up a second date.

3) 34 year-old from Tinder. First date at a bar. Flirting, teasing, kissing. Perfect date. We were hungry so we go home and eat some takeout food. Then I go for the makeout and she’s into it, but only the makeout. I freeze out and try again a few times but I can’t escalate an inch. She leaves. The next day she initiates contact via text. And the following day the same. I set up the second date at home (wine and cheese) and she instantly agrees, even asking logistics a day before. Two hours before the date she cancels because she says it’s dangerous to go to a guy’s home she doesn’t know well. I don’t even bother to counter she’s already been at my place once and she wasn’t raped or killed. I next her. That was a week ago. As I'm writing this post she texts me a thoughtful smiley, I think I'll block her.

4) 34-year old, the sister of another girl I fucked once. First date at a bar. Got her to laugh super easy, got the make out super easy, got the pull super easy. She seemed very into me. We go home and have a drink. Then I go for the makeout and this one actually lets me escalate a bit. I suck her tits, put her hand in my cock and she grabs it. She makes me stop a few times, seemed like regular LMR, but then at a certain point she says “It’s not happening tonight”. I say cool no pressure, immediately back off (but I think I tried again later, can't remember). When she gets home she texts me to let me know she arrived safe and with some callback humor, we joke back and forth a bit and then go to sleep. Then she ghosts me and I never see her again.

Post: #13

Assuming a woman is on her period 20% of the time, the probability that a series of 4 consecutive women are when they go to your place is 1.6%. Can happen. If the incidents were not consecutive the probability is higher.

Post: #14

Tight logistics and strong date game/bouncing back to your place. Barrier to closing seems like poor escalation combined with not enough comfort and/or attraction.