Post: #1

I'm creating this thread to follow my journey in Italy and Europe, which will start in April/2018.

- - -

Summary
As some of you may be aware based on this thread, I'm moving to Italy in a couple of weeks to claim my Italian citizenship (jus sanguinis). The benefits of having a second passport go without saying, especially in my case (my first one is Brazilian).

As I reported on the thread, although I researched extensively with multiple lawyers and advisors, my final decision was to go through the process on my own and use the resources that would be invested in legal advice to actually live in Italy for a few months as a form os sabbatical. (The person I wanted to work with was charging over 5000EUR, housing included.)

While I go through the process, I plan on learning Italian, doing small trips around Europe (I have good friends living in different countries), working out, doing BJJ, working on my photography, researching business ideas - and banging girls, of course.

I've quit my job, am getting rid of my apartment and selling most of my belongings in Brazil, so I have no plans for after the citizenship is acquired. I might stay in Europe for a while and settle down somewhere, or go backpacking (this trip has been on my mind for a while). I'll leave that decision to a few months from now.

Housing
While the paperwork for the citizenship process is relatively brief - I only have to prove I'm a descendant of my father, who is an Italian citizen himself -, the bureaucracy of the process can be either quick and easy, or terribly confusing and long.

The comune (municipality) where you go through the process has the autonomy to evaluate each process and waiting times can be a couple of weeks up to many months.

The process can be done in any comune around the country, but large cities like Rome, Milan and Florence are said to take much longer than smaller towns due to the number of processes going on at once.

Having said that, there are no guarantees of the duration of the process, regardless of where you file it in. While small cities can bump up the speed of the process, you don't want to be stuck in a town of 5.000 in the middle of nowehere for two months waiting for the process to run its course.

One crucial caveat is that to request your citizenship at the comune, you must be registered as a citizen of that town. Which is done when you rent a place and fill a permission of residence at the local police station.

If I had more money to spend, I'd look for a place to rent for a few months. There's a lot of paperwork to do that and it could be expensive (some places require a year's worth of rent as safety deposit). But since I don't know if my process will take eight weeks or 4 months, I'd rather find a more transitory and economical option.

At this point, my plan is to find someone to share an apartment with me - I'm trolling multiple websites and Facebook groups researching for places. Keep in my mind, the owner will have to register me as a member of the household. So this should be the hardest part of the citizenship ordeal.

Where to stay
With all that in mind, I've been researching cities that would be good picks to stay. I'm aiming towards:

- 100-300k inhabitants: small enough for decent speed, big enough to not die of boredom
- Large University in town: more young people and girls to bang, easier to make friends and find a flatmate
- Has good gym/BJJ academy: where I'll be spending time daily
- Preferably on the Northern half of Italy

I haven't decided on where to stay yet. Since it's a compromise of up to a few months, I plan on visiting the towns for a couple of days before making my decision.

So far, the cities that have caught my eye are, from the bigger to smaller:

- Bologna: huge Uni with students from all over the world, rich history. Very good gym. May be too big (almost 400k residents).
Threads: Bologna Italy difficult?, SourceCode's Northern Italy Trip Report.-Venice to Florence

- Trieste: on the Meditarrenean, easy acess to Slovenia and Croatia.
Threads: Trieste, Italy - Datasheet

- Prato: right next to Florence, very good gym. From my research, harder to find a flatmate.
Threads: None

Other relevant threads:
My perspectives on living in northern Italy
Third and Fourth Tier Cities in ITALY

- - -

I'll update this thread when I have any news.

Meanwhile, I'd love to hear your feedback on the three towns above.

Post: #2

There's a semi big university in Padova, which is very close to Venice.
Add that to your list of considerations.

Post: #3

It’s that easy to get citizenship? Wow

Post: #4

(03-20-2018 04:21 PM)worldtraveler3 Wrote:  It’s that easy to get citizenship? Wow

There's much written about it online, so I won't go too deep into it. But whether or not it's "easy" depends on a bunch of factors.

In my case it's pretty straightfoward because my father's birth certificate has been transcribed in Italy. So even though he was born in Brazil, he has Italian paperwork attesting to his birth in our family's Italian town of origin. Please note that this is different from having your documents translated to Italian (instead of issued by the Italian government). In this case, my Italian ancestor is one generation away and I only need two documents to file the request: my father and mother's marriage certificate, and my own birth certificate (both docs in Portuguese and Italian).

For someone with a distant ancestor - say, 5 generations back - the paperwork is much larger and more difficult to acquire. This person would have to find birth and marriage certificates from the late 1800's in Italy and trace their ancestor's lineage from then on until it reaches them.

There's tons of companies and consultants who specialize in doing this, though. So if you're interested and have the money to spend, just hire a top consultant or lawyer and have them do everything for you.

Post: #5

Very cool. I missed German citizenship by a few years (grandfather leaving germany untimely for my citizenship benefits).
Consider Cagliari, Genova, Torino.

Firenze, will be awash with foreign students, tourists, migrants, albeit amazing historical relevance.

Post: #6

(03-20-2018 11:15 AM)Mercenary Wrote:  There's a semi big university in Padova, which is very close to Venice.
Add that to your list of considerations.

I second Padua/Padova. The University of Padua is one of the oldest universities in the world and has close to 60,000 students.

Post: #7

When are you going to get the passport? Is there any date set?

Post: #8

(03-21-2018 11:38 AM)Rossi Wrote:  When are you going to get the passport? Is there any date set?

The goal would be to have it by the end of the year, which leaves me with a comfortable time frame.

In theory it should be much quicker, but it's hard to pick a date because the passport itself is a document that can only be issued after the citizenship has been approved - and the time to do that varies greatly.

If everything goes according to plan, I'd say I'll have it in maybe 6 months.

Post: #9

Padua and Bologna are two solid choices IMO. A friend of mine studied at the University of Bologna and I came to visit him for a few days. There were a lot of students everywhere, including some foreign ones. We went to a couple of bars and the vibe was good. Good talent. Very walkable city like Padua. I was a Padua for a few days and the city was beautiful. I think it's underrated.

Post: #10

(03-21-2018 01:06 PM)Ringo Wrote:  The goal would be to have it by the end of the year, which leaves me with a comfortable time frame.

In theory it should be much quicker, but it's hard to pick a date because the passport itself is a document that can only be issued after the citizenship has been approved - and the time to do that varies greatly.

If everything goes according to plan, I'd say I'll have it in maybe 6 months.

I wish you good luck but you don't know bureaucracy in Italy. Consider yourself lucky if you get that passport in 2018.

As for cities, Firenze is your best bet.

Post: #11

(03-21-2018 02:23 PM)Rossi Wrote:  

(03-21-2018 01:06 PM)Ringo Wrote:  The goal would be to have it by the end of the year, which leaves me with a comfortable time frame.

In theory it should be much quicker, but it's hard to pick a date because the passport itself is a document that can only be issued after the citizenship has been approved - and the time to do that varies greatly.

If everything goes according to plan, I'd say I'll have it in maybe 6 months.

I wish you good luck but you don't know bureaucracy in Italy. Consider yourself lucky if you get that passport in 2018.

As for cities, Firenze is your best bet.

I appreciate your input and you're right, I'm not familiar with it first hand. I'm basing the dates off of reports from tens of people who have done the process on their own like me and shared their stories on Facebook groups and other niche forums.

As I wrote in the OP, Firenze looks good on paper but according to the same sources as above the city is not recommended due to the long average waiting time. Prato is right next to it and the reports there have been positive.

@Others:
Thanks, I'll definitely look into Padua.

Post: #12

Good luck. Looking forward to your updates and stories of adventure. Hope the women have some great ankles there!

Post: #13

Enjoy, Ringo!

When I lived in Italy for three months, the most interesting small-medium size cities with by far the hottest girls were Bologna and Padua.

If you choose Padua, please set aside some time to visit the Scrovegni Chapel to see where Giotto mainstreamed perspective.

If Bologna... better up your cardio regime, because with the food there you will almost certainly gain some weight!

Post: #14

Another uni town option - rich in history but overlooked (and smaller and cheaper)- is Umbria.

Check it out online. It's also good for summer international students during the summer.

It's on the edge of Tuscany but without much of the upper class baggage that goes with that.

Post: #15

Padova and Bologna are also both very convenient bases for train or bus travel around the country. Both are great choices, at least while school is in session

Post: #16

Quick update.

I arrived in Europe two weeks ago.

Did two quick days in Milan where I met a friend and drove north with him to Switzerland.

Had a flare up of an old health issue which kept me in bed for like 3 days, but thankfully I'm feeling much better.

Got my Swiss flag last week - I had met the girl years ago and we kept in touch, so it was basically "show up and don't fuck up" game. Nothing to write home about but good to finally cross that one off the list.

I'm heading to Tuscany tonight and will be in the area for a week at least running errands and trying to get a place for myself.

Will update again soon.

Post: #17

Buona fortuna! It should be an interesting life experience for you, hope it goes well. Will be interested to hear your updates.

If you're used to dealing with Brasilian bureaucracy then Italian shouldn't be too much worse at least.

Post: #18

Last time I posted, I was trying to find a place to live in Prato. That fell through.

It was very hard to find a place in the city and I just had the feeling that I wasn't supposed to stay there.

I'm a very intuitive guy when it comes to these kinds of decisions, so since it didn't feel right I decided to leave.

I'm currently in a different town and hope to find a place in the next two weeks.

A few random thoughts:

- My Italian is getting better by the day and in smaller towns it's an absolute must. English proficiency outside big metro areas is much lower than I would have expected from a first world country.

- The level of talent almost everywhere I've been to so far has been surprisingly good. Very few fat girls. Most women here look quite presentable, nice hair, great legs. Taller than in Brazil - I'd say 1,70m is not unusual here, which I love. Having said that, I find my eyes always gravitating to check out their butt first, because coming from Brazil the ass situation here is worrisome. But in general, I'm pleased with the quality.

- Fitness While there's much less fat people here than in São Paulo, for example, I sometimes go days without seen a guy or girl in great shape. As in, you can see that they lift, or for guys they are vascular, cut etc. I've actively tried to find a pull-up bar in multiple cities - looked in parks, squares, boardwalks - but I don't think Italians have discovered them yet. The most exercise people seem to do is bike and run. So the average "good" physique is that of a runner. Not much muscle mass, kind of emaciated.

- Interaction with girls is something I'll have to comment on in the future, as so far my experience has been limited. My mind is completely off of gaming girls. Honestly I'm not really going out - my #1 priority is to find a place to stay asap. However I've flirted with girls multiple at restaurants, supermarkets, etc, and I can sense good feedback. There seems to be a resting bitch face culture in some places, but so far interactions have been positive when I've gotten over the first line.

So far I do have one interesting prospect here - a waitress who served me a few days ago. I didn't get her number but she was enthusiastic talking to me and went out of her way to help with some recommendations. Didn't grab her number, I want to take my time with it and go back there in a few days to see her again.

- Italian guys style. It's funny - I'd heard about and seen pictures of Italian guys dressed in suits, but in person I was very impressed. Guys here know their business attires. Suits and ensembles so sharp I sometimes just want to clap when I see these guys walking down the street. What surprised me though is - while the suit culture here is awesome, I don't see nearly as many guys well dressed in casual clothes. It's like the only stylish mode they have is "suit mode". I'll have to keep an eye out and study this.

- As a side note, the straightforwardness of the people here is something I both love and hate. It sometimes rubs me in the wrong way. I visited an apartment for rent today and asked the real estate agent how long the place had been on the market. She replied: "Why does is matter? Does it make a difference to you?". . Felt like telling her to stfu, I was the client and wanted a piece of information. I do love it though because it cuts to the chase really fast. I just need a little more time to get used to it.

Post: #19

The comments on the worrisome ass situation and pull up bars had me dying; they're spot on!

As for the rest, best of luck with your Italian adventure, Ringo!

Post: #20

(04-27-2018 06:40 AM)Ringo Wrote:  As a side note, the straightforwardness of the people here is something I both love and hate. It sometimes rubs me in the wrong way. I visited an apartment for rent today and asked the real estate agent how long the place had been on the market. She replied: "Why does is matter? Does it make a difference to you?". . Felt like telling her to stfu, I was the client and wanted a piece of information. I do love it though because it cuts to the chase really fast. I just need a little more time to get used to it.

When we lived in Italy a local joked with me that there were three prices for an espresso:

- the price when you order without using Italian
- the price when you order using Italian
- the price when you order using Italian and ask the server how their family is doing (and then actually listen to the answer)

Something like that. I think it gave a fairly accurate overview of what to expect when interacting with Italian culture.

Post: #21

Today is a decisive day for me.

After two weeks searching for a place, I've visited two yesterday that are up for the task.

Renting a studio or 1BR is out of the question due to contract length, having to pay for utilities, setting up everything, tons of paperwork, etc, so I'm just renting a room at somebody's house. This is not as simple as it looks, as I'm only here temporarily, don't have a job or study at the local University, am a foreigner, among others. Landlords are super conservative and I present them with too many risks.

I've found one of the places networking with locals and the other through the web - now I must choose which to stay in for the next few months. Obviously this is a big decision because I'll likely be stuck here for a while (during the first half of the citizenship process you must stand by at your apartment all day waiting for a surprise visit of the local immigration officer). This can last 1-8 weeks.

Room #1 is in a bigger city. There are no certainties, but it's likely that it will take a bit longer for the paperwork of my citizenship to be cleared due to city size. The room is simple and the apartment is shared with one guy, who is also renting (the owner of the apartment is a sweet old lady) - I haven't met him, he wasn't there when I visited. The apartment is close to the local University and the town has excellent talent, which will probably not diminish during the summer (it's a coastal city). Rent is 350 euros.

Room #2 is in a city half the size of #1, so in theory the process should go faster. The room is nice and big, but the house is shared with the owner (a pleasant lady in her 40s) and two other rentees (women, late 20's). The city has a small Uni, but it's still a small town - think deserted streets on Sundays. Rent is around 300 euros.

So my choice is between a nicer, more expensive location where I'll probably have to stay for longer and may run into more bureaucratic issues; or a less than ideal housing situation (living with women...), in a smaller town, but I'll probably be done with it quicker.

I'm going with Room #1 because I don't want to risk living with women and even though it may take longer, I'll enjoy my time more.

In any case I still need to clear a few details in regards to contract and other documents necessary for my residence to be approved, but if it all checks out I should be moving there next week. Wish me luck.

Post: #22

(04-27-2018 01:26 PM)TooFineAPoint Wrote:  

(04-27-2018 06:40 AM)Ringo Wrote:  As a side note, the straightforwardness of the people here is something I both love and hate. It sometimes rubs me in the wrong way. I visited an apartment for rent today and asked the real estate agent how long the place had been on the market. She replied: "Why does is matter? Does it make a difference to you?". . Felt like telling her to stfu, I was the client and wanted a piece of information. I do love it though because it cuts to the chase really fast. I just need a little more time to get used to it.

When we lived in Italy a local joked with me that there were three prices for an espresso:

- the price when you order without using Italian
- the price when you order using Italian
- the price when you order using Italian and ask the server how their family is doing (and then actually listen to the answer)

Something like that. I think it gave a fairly accurate overview of what to expect when interacting with Italian culture.

Haha. This is definitely true. Maybe not in regards to price but definitely in the way people treat you.

I wonder what would have happened if I tried to fight fire with fire - if someone is aggressive with me, try to be even more aggressive and loud.

Ringo: "How long has the apartment been available for?"
Real estate lady: "Why does is matter? Does it make a difference to you?"
Ringo: "Ma che!

Can't a customer ask a simple question?! I don't understand! I'm just trying to know how long it's been on the market! My God! People get offended by everything these days!"

Post: #23

Going with #1 is 100% the right call. Living with a group of older women would have been a terrible idea. The bigger city, and the fact its coastal, will also make #1 way more fun.

Definitely better to deal with an extra month or two of bureaucracy in a place you can actually enjoy living.

Post: #24

Everything has worked out and I'm currently living in Apartment #1 from post #21.

This week I've turned in all my paperwork for both my citizenship process and my residency request. Now I need to wait until a town official pays me a visit at home to confirm that I'm living where I said I am. This is the most boring part of the process because it's a surprise visit and it can be made in up to 45 days (start of July). Until then, I have to be at my apartment every day until noon in case the official comes over. Yeah, it's stupid, but there's nothing I can do about it.

After the visit, the residence is confirmed, I get a resident card, and the citizenship process goes through its internal bureaucracy - tracing the family tree, checking out documents, talking to Brazilian officials, etc.

My flatmate couldn't be nicer but he's a hardcore nerd and a few years older than me. The apartment looks clean at a glance, but a closer look reveals almost everything has a layer of dirt and/or grease that is repulsive. I'm cleaning it a little every day without telling him anything. European houses in general have been surprisingly dirtier than I had expected.

This week I'm signing up to a gym and will hit it hard. Gyms here are expensive - on average 30€ sign up fee + 30-60€ monthly payment.

I've also trained at a BJJ gym this week. The instructor was a blue belt (I'm a blue belt myself), so that was weird. Coming from Brazil, it's weird to think a town this big doesn't even have a black belt instructor, but whatever. It's pretty expensive for my standards too (30-60€ depending on how many training sessions a week). Nevertheless, absolutely great group of young guys.

Signing up for both would be ideal but I'm not sure my budget will allow. BJJ is more social, I can see myself making a bunch of friends in their group. But having to give up the gym would suck. Need to think this over, might have to just do both and save money somewhere else.

Girls. I signed up for Tinder just to look and there were some very cute girls. Not sure if I'll follow up, Tinder was a pain in Brazil.

I need to go back and get the waitress' number from post #18.

Tomorrow a have a little date with a Chinese-Italian girl who works at the hostel I stayed at while sorting out my housing. (Side note: never knew there were so many Chinese in Italy. They're everywhere.) I could tell from the moment I met her that she was into me but I just shrugged it off, she's pretty meh. I left the hostel without grabbing her contact information, and she went out of her way to get it from another guy I met there. She messaged me saying she wants me to help her with her Portuguese and she can help me with my Italian. Yeah, right.

Maybe I should friendzone her, it might help to build a social circle - we'll see tomorrow. In any case I could use the extra Italian practice.

Weather here is great and I'm getting into a more social mood now that the housing and citizenship stress are mostly behind me, it might be time to start day gaming again.

Post: #25

Here's where I'm at now:

Location
At this point, I don't feel comfortable disclosing my location, but I definitely intend on writing a datasheet at some point the future. Suffice to say it's a coastal town in the northern half of Italy and it has a big University.

Girls
At first I was slightly impressed by the talent here. It's easy to spot cute girls walking around just about anywhere during the day. However, late afternoons and nights have revealed a level of talent that truly impresses me. There's just too many bangable girls. Unlike Brazil, where you get tons of 5's and a handful of 10's, the median here seems skewed towards a 7, to my taste at least. There's less very high level girls, but also less trolls.

The average cute girl is 1,60-170m, slim, nice legs, very nice face and light brown to brown hair.

Guys
As I wrote before, the average guy in Italy is not in good shape. Even fitter guys are fitter only for European standards. I can count on my hands the number of jacked guys I've seen in this town over the last few weeks – and out of those, two were at the gym and one was a foreigner.

Gym/fitness
Working out is relatively expensive here. Plus, it's just a hassle – you have to bring “gym shoes”, get changed, carry a towel around. There are no water fountains at most gyms. I'm sure none of this helps to motivate the average civilian to lift. Gyms here often have courts for basketball, volleyball and other team sports. Many Italians prefer that to lifting weights. Most people are some level of skinny fat and just keep in relatively good shape due to tons of walking.

I'm far from big (1,83m, 83kg), but definitely in very good shape compared to the average guy here - I can see it by how girls react to me in day to day life.

Alcohol
I cannot emphasize enough how big drinking culture is here. People look at me like I'm an alien because I don't drink.

As I've touched on before, it's considered normal to drink even before lunch. Yesterday was a sunny Sunday, and as I was walking to the gym I noticed many people drinking beer on the sidewalk tables of bars and cafés. It was 10:30am.

After 5pm on weekdays, most people go to aperitivo, a pre-dinner ritual involving drinks and snacks, usually on tables by the sidewalk and accompanied by friends or coworkers. Because of that, it's normal to see people stumbling around wasted at 8pm. Still, I personally haven't seen anyone throwing up in public or laying on the curb wasted, a common sight in São Paulo.

Italy in general, and this town in specific, are sidewalk game paradises.

Social circle
I've never been to a place where social circle seems to be more important than Italy.

People go out with friends for drinks or food almost every day. Excluding people who are commuting to or from work, you hardly ever spot someone walking around or sitting at a table by themselves. The only exceptions I see regularly are elderly people, most of whom are drinking or reading, and people taking their dogs for a walk (you can take a dog almost anywhere here).

While this is bad news because it's very hard to approach and infiltrate these groups, I'm optimistic because I know that if I do manage to break into one, most of my work will have been done.

I see girls looking at me but when I try to spark up a conversation I barely get any feedback. I don't think it's an attraction issue, I think it's a social issue of them censoring themselves to not look bad (or slutish?) in some way.

During aperitivo hours, I see tons of tables of just girls, anywhere from 3-10 girls, especially during the weekends, but I've found myself unable to approach.

I've also tried a couple of times to befriend guys. I wouldn't go as far as saying Italian guys are haters, at least not yet, but I always get very dry, matter of fact reactions from them. Maybe I need to befriend them in a different setting and then go out together.

Nightlife
This remains to be explored. Truth be told, ever since I've come to Italy I've barely gamed at all. In Brazil I was doing very well in night game – I'd hardly ever come home without at least one solid prospect for a new bang, if not a SNL.

My research tells me that there aren't many nightclubs here, but there are probably 3-4 options that would be worth a visit. I plan on checking them out next weekend.

Again – it seems like placing my bets on the aperitivo/dinner hours would offer a better bang for buck because (it looks like) most girls are out at that time, but maybe not all go to the club later.

- - -

So, to cap it off, here are my main challenges currently:

- Improve Italian skills and confidence in using it.
When I'm out, I never use English because I want to put myself into the uncomfortable position of having to speak Italian 100% of the time. I know this will help me improve, but it's hard on my mind because it makes me question myself and often avoid social interaction. It's also hard because I can't get deep with the subjects, so chats are usually at the same surface level. I need to embrace the fact that my language skills are not good at the moment and that's okay, and keep working on them. I'm sure over time this will pass and I'll get my confidence back up.

- Breaking into one or more social circles.
Like I said, social circle is king here. I can't see myself succeeding without breaking into at least one group. I've been taking steps towards befriending locals (gym, jiu jitsu, keeping in touch with random people I've met), but so far I'm still stuck at zero. I think Italians are a bit closed off in this aspect, even more so in a smaller town such as this, so I think I just need more time.

A friend who has been through this before, although in a different country, recommended that I should try to find a place where Erasmus students hang out and befriend them. It's a good idea and I'll look into it.

- - -

Overall I'm feeling quite confident and happy here even though I have no real life friends or any bangable prospects. I think it's a matter of keep putting the work in and eventually things will pan out.

It's been a month since I've banged a girl for the last time and I'm about to start climbing up the walls but I'm using this time as a mental break and not sweating it too much because I know it will be worth it in the long run.

If anyone has good tips on how to break into social circles here in Italy, let me know.