Post: #201

I bet Puigdemont was in Belgium (currently as secretive as Switzerland for bank business) to take care of his bank accounts in Brussels. By the way, it would be very interesting to track the finances of all these "Catalan" leaders, see how much they got and from whom (Soros certainly, also the Qataris maybe? the Clinton foundation?)...

By the way, as I predicted earlier on the thread, Vladimir Putin deftly avoided the Catalan trap, by soundly rejecting, in the name of the Russian Federation, the stupid Catalan independence bid.

Post: #202

Someone just told me, very happily I might add, that according to the current EU laws Puigdemont should in theory not be able to request asylum and in fact should be deported back to spanish territory. Probably why he hasn't clarified his position (then again,that seems to be his standard MO)

Post: #203

(10-31-2017 12:59 PM)Elster Wrote:  Someone just told me, very happily I might add, that according to the current EU laws Puigdemont should in theory not be able to request asylum and in fact should be deported back to spanish territory. Probably why he hasn't clarified his position (then again,that seems to be his standard MO)

As far as I know, Belgium is the only EU country where it is possible to request asylum from another EU country.

Post: #204

Why are so many people in here anti Catalan independence?

Shouldn't the standard response be something along the line of: It's up to the people of Catalan to decide if they want independence or not.

Post: #205

(10-31-2017 01:32 PM)Svoboda Wrote:  

(10-31-2017 12:59 PM)Elster Wrote:  Someone just told me, very happily I might add, that according to the current EU laws Puigdemont should in theory not be able to request asylum and in fact should be deported back to spanish territory. Probably why he hasn't clarified his position (then again,that seems to be his standard MO)

As far as I know, Belgium is the only EU country where it is possible to request asylum from another EU country.

Post: #206

(10-31-2017 09:01 AM)Handsome Creepy Eel Wrote:  "Desertification of sub-Saharan Africa" is just an excuse. There is more than enough fertile land there to feed two continents, not just that region. Not to mention that "sub-Saharan African refugees" don't come to Europe because they're hungry, but because they've heard there's plenty of idiots handing out free stuff.

The problem is not this or that region of the world, the problem is Europe, which is cucked and rotten to the core.

Sub-Saharan Africa is not desertifying, this is propaganda. In fact,
its green cover has been increasing , by about 25% from 1980s levels,
as a result of the increase in the rate of atmospheric CO2, which acts
as a very strong fertilizer by boosting photosynthesis.



Rising CO2 levels are re-greening Africa's deserts, bringing abundance that lifts people out of poverty
https://www.naturalnews.com/051252_clima...ather.html

It is true however that the globalists have been destabilizing vast swaths
of Africa, pushing its population to emigrate to Europe. They prop up
and fund terror groups like Boko Haram, and militias in countries like
Congo or Rwanda. Same dynamics as in Syria, Iraq or Afghanistan.

By contrast, China has been a stabilizing force in Africa.

Post: #207

(10-31-2017 07:58 AM)Icarus Wrote:  

(10-31-2017 07:34 AM)morales Wrote:  Why the fuck would Spain have the need to invade Portugal?

I don't know. I cannot predict the future.

Wise defense policy is based on weakening the potential enemy's capability, so that his intent becomes irrelevant.

(10-31-2017 07:34 AM)morales Wrote:  Portugal poses no threat to them and vice-versa.

Much of Portugal is under severe drought. If the time comes when Spain has to choose whether to feed its farmers or Portuguese farmers, which ones will Spain choose?

(10-31-2017 07:34 AM)morales Wrote:  Even last year the temperatures we're exactly the same as it is now.

It rained a lot more in October 2016.

(10-31-2017 07:34 AM)morales Wrote:  History has showed us in the past two centuries that when countries are united they become stronger.

Ideally, they unite voluntarily, as equals. Did Aragonese institutions abolish themselves via referendum? No, they were abolished by the French-born King of Spain, who wanted Spain to become a centralized state like France. The Aragonese peoples never had a say in the matter.

(10-31-2017 07:34 AM)morales Wrote:  The biggest economic development or GDP growth that turned into more material comfort and less people out of poverty line, happened when there were less restrictions, bureaucracy or borders and free trade, as you can see post WWII.

A period that coincided with the massive use of synthetic fertilizer and hydrocarbons. It wasn't free trade that created that sweet dinosaur juice...

You're really stretching it here Icarus, this talk of Portuguese-Spanish warfare is completely unfounded in the 21st century. Makes no sense whatsoever.

Bottom line, the economy of Barcelona is not set up to service the small province it's a part of, but to leverage its position within Spain. Take that away, and their economy would be brought to heel, it would just become a playgound and retirement community for northern Europeans, like the Canaries. Look at the Kurds, they've antagonized all their neighbors (Turkey, Syria, Iraq and Iran) and now they're paralyzed with these countries restricting flights out and oil exports. Spain can't ban flights out from Barcelona, but they control the land borders,, and are by far the largest market for Barcelona, and they can play hardball.

Post: #208

(10-31-2017 01:40 PM)Svoboda Wrote:  Why are so many people in here anti Catalan independence?

Shouldn't the standard response be something along the line of: It's up to the people of Catalan to decide if they want independence or not.

I might be guilty of associaton as I am in Spain but as you might have surmised from this thread and others:
The rest of the Spanish regions have a poor stereotypical image of Catalonia thanks in no small part to the very vocal and obnoxious sector of its population who are rather persistent in their affirmation of how much better they are and how they are also victimized (sounds familiar?).
So right now,as unfair as it may be, almost everyone that isn't in Catalonia is getting a chuckle out of this comedy as they perceive that the catalonians are getting a long over due reality check.

Post: #209

(10-31-2017 02:28 PM)911 Wrote:  You're really stretching it here Icarus, this talk of Portuguese-Spanish warfare is completely unfounded in the 21st century.

Hopefully. The question is whether it is unfounded in the 22nd, 23rd, 24th and 25th centuries.

Robust policy-making addresses the very worst-case scenario.

Post: #210

(10-31-2017 02:15 PM)911 Wrote:  

Interesting that it ends in 2010. Why? Because: 2010 Sahel famine.

(10-31-2017 02:15 PM)911 Wrote:  China has been a stabilizing force in Africa.

Yes, but after having contributed to the destabilization of European colonies in Africa.

Post: #211

(10-31-2017 01:48 PM)Elster Wrote:  

(10-31-2017 01:32 PM)Svoboda Wrote:  

(10-31-2017 12:59 PM)Elster Wrote:  Someone just told me, very happily I might add, that according to the current EU laws Puigdemont should in theory not be able to request asylum and in fact should be deported back to spanish territory. Probably why he hasn't clarified his position (then again,that seems to be his standard MO)

As far as I know, Belgium is the only EU country where it is possible to request asylum from another EU country.

After reading a bit it turns out that technically an EU citizen can request asylum in any EU country. But it is considered irregular, the receiving country has to inform the European Counsel directly, and it is hardly ever granted.
From what I can find Belgium is the only country that hasn't send the aplicant to the original country (establishing jurispredence in a case with some Basque people wanted by Spain).


I'd guess in the EU his other best chance would be Slovenia, based on Slovenia being the only EU country to respond negatively on Spain's actions, and Slovenia also being a country that gained independence from a larger state.
In Slovenia (also Croatia and possibly the Baltic states) it would be very interesting to get a court case where the prosecutor is arguing that taking steps to gain independence is criminal. In effect the prosecutor would state the people behind Slovenian or Croatian independence should be viewed as criminals.

I doubt he'd actually apply for assylum anywhere. If he gets prosecuted plus the resulting court case and appeals (which would take years untill the European court would have the final say) it will energize the independence movement long term. He'd be considered a victim.

Post: #212

(10-31-2017 02:29 PM)Elster Wrote:  

(10-31-2017 01:40 PM)Svoboda Wrote:  Why are so many people in here anti Catalan independence?

Shouldn't the standard response be something along the line of: It's up to the people of Catalan to decide if they want independence or not.

I might be guilty of associaton as I am in Spain but as you might have surmised from this thread and others:
The rest of the Spanish regions have a poor stereotypical image of Catalonia thanks in no small part to the very vocal and obnoxious sector of its population who are rather persistent in their affirmation of how much better they are and how they are also victimized (sounds familiar?).
So right now,as unfair as it may be, almost everyone that isn't in Catalonia is getting a chuckle out of this comedy as they perceive that the catalonians are getting a long over due reality check.

Why would you want to keep them in Spain? Sounds like a case of good riddance.

Post: #213

(10-31-2017 03:08 PM)Svoboda Wrote:  Why would you want to keep them in Spain? Sounds like a case of good riddance.

Modern welfare states are very rigid. There must be little uncertainty as to where the tax revenue is flowing.

Post: #214

Just to clarify : I'm not a spaniard (though I am of spanish family)

Honestly,I don't really know if the regular joe in the streets really opposes or has even thought about life post actual catalan independence. I guess as far as their perception and fucks given amount to in this case, it's fun to see the catalans get their come-uppance.
Biz people, both big and small could have issues with this as commerce would be affected by the shift and transition.
And government, well no govt is likely to give up land and revenue for no reason. Pride and prejudice play no small part in it's decisions either.


I asked earlier before.
Can anyone give me examples of a peaceful independence proccess, at least within the EU? Preferably in the 20th(/21st?) century?

Post: #215

Slovakia

Post: #216

(10-31-2017 03:17 PM)Elster Wrote:  Can anyone give me examples of a peaceful independence proccess, at least within the EU? Preferably in the 20th(/21st?) century?

What about the dissolution of Czechoslovakia, i.e., the "Velvet Divorce"?

However, neither Czechia nor Slovakia were in the EU at the time.

Post: #217

(10-31-2017 03:17 PM)Elster Wrote:  Just to clarify : I'm not a spaniard (though I am of spanish family)

Honestly,I don't really know if the regular joe in the streets really opposes or has even thought about life post actual catalan independence. I guess as far as their perception and fucks given amount to in this case, it's fun to see the catalans get their come-uppance.
Biz people, both big and small could have issues with this as commerce would be affected by the shift and transition.
And government, well no govt is likely to give up land and revenue for no reason. Pride and prejudice play no small part in it's decisions either.


I asked earlier before.
Can anyone give me examples of a peaceful independence proccess, at least within the EU? Preferably in the 20th(/21st?) century?

Not researched, out of my head.
Example: Slovakia
Example: Scotland (the process was peaceful, but they voted and decided they didn't wanna go through with it)
Example: Montenegro
Example: Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania.



Also, I'm aware why the Spanish government doesn't wanna get rid of a region that pays in significantly more than it recieves.

My question was more like why does a Spaniard from another region want Catalunya to stay in Spain? Apart from tax flow, what's the reason? Does the rest of Spain become less Spanish when Catalunya isn't in Spain? What makes Spain fear the idea that a region doesn't wanna be Spanish?

Since this is RVF, the bitch doesn't wanna be with you.
The RVF advice would be: Next her, and improve yourself.

Post: #218

(10-31-2017 02:50 PM)Icarus Wrote:  

(10-31-2017 02:15 PM)911 Wrote:  

Interesting that it ends in 2010. Why? Because: 2010 Sahel famine.

This is not some arbitrary cutoff, you're wrong to assume data cherry-picking here. The African Sahel experiences droughts every few decades, like other arid regions including California. The last big one was in 2010. The Wiki you've linked on this 2010 drought lists 71 dead. But the death toll from the previous famine in the 1980s was 100,000...

This article is from 2015:

Quote:Experts from the university engaged in a study that ultimately showed that the West African Sahel, the strip south of the Sahara desert, has been "regreening" ever since droughts in the 1970s and 80s killed more than 100,000 people. They maintain that increased rainfall caused by climate change has led to more carbon dioxide in the atmosphere, which has spurred more plant growth and community-led farming efforts.

The region is turning around and experiencing a vast change from the drought and deaths that once plagued it. The area is greening, plants are growing, and people are coming together. These changes bring improvements in the physical and emotional well-being of the region's inhabitants, which can ultimately bolster relationships and reverse poverty levels.

https://www.naturalnews.com/051252_clima...ather.html

Quote:

(10-31-2017 02:15 PM)911 Wrote:  China has been a stabilizing force in Africa.

Yes, but after having contributed to the destabilization of European colonies in Africa.

Are you talking about things like late 20th century guerilla warfare in places like Mozambique? Not relevant.

China has brought in a better, win-win, less predatory development model in Africa, swapping natural resources in exchange for turnkey infrastructure projects that they see through themselves. This infrastructure (road, powerplants, railway, dams etc) provides the basis for economic growth for these countries.

In the previous western/IMF model, most of the development funds would be siphoned off by corrupt rulers, and the country would be left with crippling debt tab and nothing to show for.

Post: #219

(10-31-2017 03:41 PM)911 Wrote:  Are you talking about things like late 20th century guerilla warfare in places like Mozambique? Not relevant.

No, I am talking about arming the guerrilla movements that kicked Europeans out of Africa in the 1960s and 1970s. The bulk of the work was done by the Soviets, but the Chinese and even the Americans also contributed to it. Freedom without stability is worth little.

Decolonization was one of the 20th century's greatest disasters. So was the collapse of the Soviet Union. Both were desirable, but not as they unfolded.

Post: #220

Thanks for the examples, mates! I'll have to research a bit as most of my knowledge of independence processes involve revolution and a fair amount of body piles.

(10-31-2017 03:40 PM)Svoboda Wrote:  Not researched, out of my head.
Example: Slovakia
Example: Scotland (the process was peaceful, but they voted and decided they didn't wanna go through with it)
Example: Montenegro
Example: Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania.



Also, I'm aware why the Spanish government doesn't wanna get rid of a region that pays in significantly more than it recieves.

My question was more like why does a Spaniard from another region want Catalunya to stay in Spain? Apart from tax flow, what's the reason? Does the rest of Spain become less Spanish when Catalunya isn't in Spain? What makes Spain fear the idea that a region doesn't wanna be Spanish?

Since this is RVF, the bitch doesn't wanna be with you.
The RVF advice would be: Next her, and improve yourself.

I said before I don't think that the average blue collar Spaniard really thinks that Catalonia should stay in Spain or not. But I'll thrown in some ideas :
-Spaniards are a very conservative lot in general and don't like change as it means additional and unexpected work
-A lot of people that backed Franco and many more who were born after his victory have more faith in the idea of a national identity overlooking their local one which is no less cherished so perhaps the idea of an independence process could be an attack on the stability that for better or for worse, Franco established. But very few people would ever be so serious about that.
-Many see the process as mere posturing and a good beating and negation of independence as a good cutting down to size of the "smug separatists".
-There is a fresh memory of ETA terrorism so that any separatist idea could immediately remind them about it, regardless of the region initiating it.
-Spain doesn't have a history of peacefully addressing revolutions and other political shifts (see South American independence processes)

Post: #221

I thought the issue is that the Catalans want to break away and form their own socialist feminist "utopia" and people are now sitting back and waiting for them to turn into Venezuela 2.0 with bonus Muslim refugees.

Post: #222

(10-31-2017 09:15 PM)Super_Fire Wrote:  I thought the issue is that the Catalans want to break away and form their own socialist feminist "utopia" and people are now sitting back and waiting for them to turn into Venezuela 2.0 with bonus Muslim refugees.

Your thoughts are correct.

Post: #223

(10-27-2017 11:24 AM)The Beast1 Wrote:  I said it in the other thread, the people in Barcelona pushing this are all pussies. The second the going gets tough, they'll run away.

Independence costs blood and these libtards don't even have skin in the game.

They just want freebies from the government and want to continue their hang in the cafe siesta lifestyle where no one works and 50% of their kids live at home or go to grad school until their mid 30s.

-----

You have one immensely lazy government going up against an even lazier regional government. Nothing will come of this because the Catalans don't have it in them to die for their independence. Tree of liberty, blood of patriots.

They'll fold and this will be forgotten in a few weeks, just like the irrelevant Greeks, their do-nothing politicians, and the government which sold away all of their public assets to pay for their socialism and nearly defaulted debts.

So, any updates? Sounds like my prediction on the first few pages is coming true:

https://www.politico.eu/article/mariano-...-got-this/

Quote:MADRID — The government here is feeling good about how things are playing out in Catalonia.

Days after taking direct control over the northeastern region’s government and prompting its ousted separatist leader to flee the country, Spain’s leaders are looking to build on what they see as positive momentum to neutralize the Catalan independence movement ahead of new local elections there on December 21.

“We’re in a much better situation than a week ago,” Íñigo Méndez de Vigo, a Cabinet minister who’s the official government spokesman, said in an interview. He called the transition of power in recent days from the pro-independence authorities in Barcelona to caretakers sent by Madrid “cordial” and “natural.”

More than 150 Catalan officials have been fired, most notably President Carles Puigdemont and his entire cabinet. Defying Madrid, Puigdemont went ahead with an October 1 referendum on independence that was declared illegal by Spanish courts, and used its contested results to support a unilateral declaration of independence last Friday. Madrid later that day moved to take over the region.

Puigdemont turned up at a press conference in Brussels on Tuesday, and in a conciliatory note, said he accepted the snap election in December and asked for guarantees of safety from Madrid before returning to Spain. Later that day, however, Spain’s High Court confirmed charges of rebellion, sedition and misuse of public funds against him and summoned Puigdemont to appear in a Madrid court on Thursday. Puigdemont was last seen in Belgium on Tuesday, and his current whereabouts are unknown. (in other words, he fled like a coward)

“We’ve reestablished constitutional order in Catalonia … we’ve brought tranquility to many people” — Íñigo Méndez de Vigo, official government spokesman
After a difficult few months of public relations and political setbacks, including images of police violence against people who tried to vote on October 1 in Catalonia that went viral, Madrid finds itself on the front foot for a change.

Catalonia’s motley coalition of pro-independence factions swerved in recent days from negotiations with Madrid to a hasty declaration of independence that they lacked the levers to enforce and that was not recognized by any country. For its part, Madrid has asserted its authority in Catalonia, at least for the time being, almost effortlessly — dispelling fears, including among some members of Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy’s Cabinet, according to a senior government official, that it would be met with active resistance.

“The government has done what it had to do,” said Méndez de Vigo, who also runs the education, sports and culture ministry. “We’ve reestablished constitutional order in Catalonia … we’ve brought tranquility to many people … and we’ve called elections as soon as it could legally be done.”

As critics of the Rajoy government point out, it was also confident months ago that Catalonia wouldn’t blow up into a full-blown crisis. But it did. Internal rivalries within the separatist forces, fear of judicial sanctions and of the economic consequences didn’t derail last month’s push toward independence, as Madrid expected. The October 1 vote was, as analysts at Elcano Institute put it, a PR “disaster” for Spain.

There are numerous risks lurking in the weeks ahead for Madrid, including the likely possibility that the same or larger pro-independence majority regains control over the regional legislature. But government officials these days point to missteps by the Catalan leadership to justify their optimism.

Speaking at his office in the culture ministry on Tuesday, Méndez de Vigo said a potential deal with Puigdemont last week to avoid a declaration of independence came apart after the Catalan leader made demands for “immunity” from criminal prosecution for himself that Madrid “couldn’t and didn’t want to give.” He added that Puigdemont also demanded that the two Catalan pro-independence civil group leaders — Jordi Sànchez and Jordi Cuixart, who are in custody pending an investigation on charges of sedition — would be freed.

Joan Maria Piqué, the international communications director of the Catalan government who was removed from his job by Madrid over the weekend, denied this account. He said that the only condition made by Puigdemont was that Madrid wouldn’t impose direct rule if he called a regional elections instead of going ahead with the declaration of independence. Madrid said no, Piqué said.

By calling elections much sooner expected, Méndez de Vigo made clear that the government hopes Catalan voters punish separatist forces. He invoked, with a confident grin, the popular slogan shouted at pro-independence rallies throughout the year in Catalonia: “Votarem!” (Catalan for ‘We will vote!’)

“We considered something very easy that may not be so easy” — Marta Pascal, head of one of the leading pro-independence Catalan parties
“Recent events have refuted the whole pro-independence narrative and all the actions we’ve seen from Puigdemont reveal a lack of bravery ,” he said. “It’s not edifying at all to call on people to oppose [the central government takeover]

ol,Saturday and then to take to the heels and run on Monday. I don’t think his supporters have appreciated that.”

Catalan political calculus
The main pro-independence Catalan political parties have vowed that they will take part in the ballot, implicitly accepting Madrid’s direct rule. The question remains if they will form a common front and under what motto they will run their campaign — with some separatists arguing they should frame the ballot as some sort of ratification for the new Catalan Republic.

But the reality of their predicament is starting to sink in for some of Catalonia’s leading pro-independence voices. “There hasn’t been international recognition … and some people are saying ‘what’s happening here,'” Marta Pascal, the head of Puigdemont’s center-right Catalan European Democratic Party (PDeCAT), said in a TV interview on Tuesday evening. “We considered something very easy that may not be so easy.”


Carles Puigdemont, the ousted Catalan regional president, speaks at a press conference in Brussels on October 31, saying that he won’t ask for asylum in Brussels and will accept new elections in the Spanish region | Olivier Hoslet/EPA
Were pro-independence parties to lose the absolute majority of the regional chamber, a new promising scenario would open for supporters of a unitary Spain. But that’s far from granted.

A poll by the Catalan Centre d’Estudis d’Opinió released Tuesday gives pro-independence forces a similar ruling majority as the one they got in 2015. The survey also showed a sharp increase — from 41.1 percent to 48.7 percent — in support for secession in the past four months. Opposition to it fell from 49.4 percent to 43.6 percent. The poll was taken on October 16-29.

A senior Spanish government official said he thought the separatists wouldn’t pursue the same confrontational approach again even if they won a new majority.

The prospect of economic trouble — with nearly 1,900 companies fleeing Catalonia since the disputed independence referendum on October 1 — and the cold welcome of the international community to the newly declared republic, said the official, should’ve convinced the separatist that the path of confrontation leads nowhere.

Méndez de Vigo emphasized the role the EU had played in helping Spain face up to the Catalan independence push. He said Spain had gone through two critical moments in the past five years — the economic and financial crisis and the Catalan conflict — and had found critical help in the EU. “It’s a great satisfaction that the EU has been on our side,” he said, “on the side of the Spanish government and constitutional order.”

Ouch, harsh critique. For the TL;DR:

- Puigdemont's own pro-independence constituents think he's a coward.
- The libtard separatists are living up to the worst stereotypes of Spanish culture and expected breaking away to be easy and not difficult.
- Ultimately, no one had the balls to stand up for their freedom by fighting for it.
- The region has been harmed economically by businesses leaving.
- The International community couldn't care less.
- The Spanish government has the whole region by the balls.

Looks like my prediction of irrelevancy is coming true. I eagerly await any news to the contrary.

Post: #224

Catalan Separatists Wrote:“We considered something very easy that may not be so easy.”

Post: #225

(11-01-2017 01:00 PM)The Beast1 Wrote:  Ouch, harsh critique. For the TL;DR:

- Puigdemont's own pro-independence constituents think he's a coward.
- The libtard separatists are living up to the worst stereotypes of Spanish culture and expected breaking away to be easy and not difficult.
- Ultimately, no one had the balls to stand up for their freedom by fighting for it.
- The region has been harmed economically by businesses leaving.
- The International community couldn't care less.
- The Spanish government has the whole region by the balls.

Looks like my prediction of irrelevancy is coming true. I eagerly await any news to the contrary.

I would add

-The rest of the spanish people couldn't care less, save laughter at the catalonian separatists expense