Post: #301

Quote:Because your country Croatia got what it wanted, independence from Yugoslavia, the brutal expulsion of it's ethnic Serbs whilst keeping the 'goodies' of old system.

Contradiction much?

I have no idea what you're talking about here. I was referring to Yugoslavia's vast home ownership rate, infrastructure quality far in excess of its modest GDP and a general atmosphere of economic equality. Communist regimes that manage to achieve that - let alone without first slaughtering millions for no reason - are pretty rare and deserve at least a respectful nod.

Post: #302

(04-22-2017 10:45 AM)Fisto Wrote:  

(04-22-2017 10:30 AM)Enigma Wrote:  

(04-22-2017 09:45 AM)Leonard D Neubache Wrote:  Well, I suppose the North Korea Conflict Thread is living up to it's name. Just not in the way we anticipated.

I suppose Traktor and others won't be happy until we invent a time machine, stop all resistance to communism and allow most of the world to starve or be butchered in ideological purges.

Just curious, Traktor. How many men women and children has the imperialist US killed vs how many men, women and children have communist regimes killed? My maths is a little rough, but isn't the combined kill-count of all western governments still lagging by 100million or so?

Shit, not that I want to split hairs or anything.

Come now, Leonard, you know damn well those comrades died in service of the revolution, and therefore it doesn't count.

We all have to make sacrifices for the revolution, whether it's food, basic human decency, our children, or our lives.

And while 7+ million Ukrainians may have starved to death under Soviet rule, it was only when the Imperialists took over when things really got bad.

I went and toured the Killing Fields in Cambodia (which I believe is one of 300 similar sites countrywide) and seeing what they did to other human beings there, is so shocking. Words are inadequate really. There was also a school that was converted into a torture base where special political enemies were taken before being sent to the fields.

They would photograph everyone, and I saw these photographs. Looked at the faces.

Their children were there also. Scared. Crying. Some looked like they were in a daze. One woman was holding onto her newborn baby.

One guy was staring into the camera with this look of crazed defiance. And I felt so sad because I knew they broke him after that photo was taken.

In the killing fields themselves human bones are everywhere. Children's bones and clothes.

They had a tree there called the killing tree where they grabbed infants by their feet and smashed their heads against the tree.

People there weren't shot. They were butchered to save bullets. Axes, Clubs, Tire irons, knives. If it could be used to end a life it was.

1 in 4 people died in Cambodia.

It's not even the worst example of what Communism has done.

The irony was that the KR, was armed, trained, funded and salaried by the US/UK in a proxy war in Indochina very much like ISIS and al-Qaeda is today in another proxy war this time in Syria. Plus their kill count is approaching that of the KR.

Post: #303

(04-22-2017 10:51 AM)Handsome Creepy Eel Wrote:  

Quote:Because your country Croatia got what it wanted, independence from Yugoslavia, the brutal expulsion of it's ethnic Serbs whilst keeping the 'goodies' of old system.

Contradiction much?

I have no idea what you're talking about here. I was referring to Yugoslavia's vast home ownership rate, infrastructure quality far in excess of its modest GDP and a general atmosphere of economic equality. Communist regimes that manage to achieve that - let alone without first slaughtering millions for no reason - are pretty rare and deserve at least a respectful nod.

What I am referring to is that Croatia got what it wanted and then bolted. Tudjman and the nationalists jettisoned Tito's Yugoslavia, it's ideology etc. (and the Krajina Serbs) but kept the goodies that were built up by the system.

Post: #304

(04-22-2017 10:52 AM)Traktor Wrote:  

(04-22-2017 10:45 AM)Fisto Wrote:  

(04-22-2017 10:30 AM)Enigma Wrote:  

(04-22-2017 09:45 AM)Leonard D Neubache Wrote:  Well, I suppose the North Korea Conflict Thread is living up to it's name. Just not in the way we anticipated.

I suppose Traktor and others won't be happy until we invent a time machine, stop all resistance to communism and allow most of the world to starve or be butchered in ideological purges.

Just curious, Traktor. How many men women and children has the imperialist US killed vs how many men, women and children have communist regimes killed? My maths is a little rough, but isn't the combined kill-count of all western governments still lagging by 100million or so?

Shit, not that I want to split hairs or anything.

Come now, Leonard, you know damn well those comrades died in service of the revolution, and therefore it doesn't count.

We all have to make sacrifices for the revolution, whether it's food, basic human decency, our children, or our lives.

And while 7+ million Ukrainians may have starved to death under Soviet rule, it was only when the Imperialists took over when things really got bad.

I went and toured the Killing Fields in Cambodia (which I believe is one of 300 similar sites countrywide) and seeing what they did to other human beings there, is so shocking. Words are inadequate really. There was also a school that was converted into a torture base where special political enemies were taken before being sent to the fields.

They would photograph everyone, and I saw these photographs. Looked at the faces.

Their children were there also. Scared. Crying. Some looked like they were in a daze. One woman was holding onto her newborn baby.

One guy was staring into the camera with this look of crazed defiance. And I felt so sad because I knew they broke him after that photo was taken.

In the killing fields themselves human bones are everywhere. Children's bones and clothes.

They had a tree there called the killing tree where they grabbed infants by their feet and smashed their heads against the tree.

People there weren't shot. They were butchered to save bullets. Axes, Clubs, Tire irons, knives. If it could be used to end a life it was.

1 in 4 people died in Cambodia.

It's not even the worst example of what Communism has done.

The irony was that the KR, was armed, trained, funded and salaried by the US/UK in a proxy war in Indochina very much like ISIS and al-Qaeda is today in another proxy war this time in Syria. Plus their kill count is approaching that of the KR.

The US/UK armed the KR with Ak-47s? That's weird.

Post: #305

(04-22-2017 10:52 AM)Traktor Wrote:  The irony was that the KR, was armed, trained, funded and salaried by the US/UK in a proxy war in Indochina very much like ISIS and al-Qaeda is today in another proxy war this time in Syria. Plus their kill count is approaching that of the KR.

No, it wasn't. The Khmer Rouge was funded by China and brought into power through direct military intervention by North Vietnamese.

The US/UK only funded the Khmer Rouge AFTER they were overthrown and the Vietnamese had installed a puppet, former KR member Hun Sen as prime minister and proceeded to militarily occupy the country for a decade.

All of this is basic fact backed up by a wide variety of sources.

Here is an essay from a professor of Asian studies at the Russian Academy of Sciences that details all of this using sources directly from the Soviet archives.

https://www.files.ethz.ch/isn/46645/GS20.pdf

Of course, you already know all this because we had this exact same discussion in the Trump thread like a week ago. Your style of argument is incredibly intellectually dishonest.

Post: #306

I'm still waiting for an actual argument in favor of NK that doesn't consist of straw-manning something not even remotely related.

Post: #307

(04-22-2017 10:57 AM)Traktor Wrote:  What I am referring to is that Croatia got what it wanted and then bolted. Tudjman and the nationalists jettisoned Tito's Yugoslavia, it's ideology etc. (and the Krajina Serbs) but kept the goodies that were built up by the system.

A) Actually it was Serbia that jettisoned it by getting too power hungry and ungrateful for the contribution of wealthier states in building their own goodies
B) It has nothing to do with the argument for or against the viability of communism in general

Still, I have to say I'm enjoying this newfound depiction of Croatia as a player pump and dumping the poor gullible Yugoslavia

Post: #308

(04-22-2017 11:58 AM)Vicious Wrote:  I'm still waiting for an actual argument in favor of NK that doesn't consist of straw-manning something not even remotely related.

They got Kimchi!

Post: #309

   

Post: #310

(04-22-2017 11:58 AM)Vicious Wrote:  I'm still waiting for an actual argument in favor of NK that doesn't consist of straw-manning something not even remotely related.

The Pyongyang traffic girls?

Also they have no electricity, so if you successfully invite a girl home to "watch a movie" shes guaranteed DTF.

Post: #311

(04-23-2017 06:40 AM)Phoenix Wrote:  

(04-22-2017 11:58 AM)Vicious Wrote:  I'm still waiting for an actual argument in favor of NK that doesn't consist of straw-manning something not even remotely related.

The Pyongyang traffic girls?

Also they have no electricity, so if you successfully invite a girl home to "watch a movie" shes guaranteed DTF.

Also guaranteed you don't have to leave the lights on during sex

Post: #312

(04-22-2017 10:52 AM)Traktor Wrote:  ...
The irony was that the KR, was armed, trained, funded and salaried by the US/UK in a proxy war in Indochina very much like ISIS and al-Qaeda is today in another proxy war this time in Syria. Plus their kill count is approaching that of the KR.

The irony. The bizarre and unbelievable irony. You know what's ironic? Gang bangers are killing each other on the street but it's actually the steel and plastics industries that are putting the guns in their hands at the end of the day.

So who's really to blame? The ninth street crips or Joe American at the steel mill?

Those poor, poor communists. Tricked into genociding men, women, children and babies. Not with guns I suppose, but we have to assume that the American guns were somehow possessed with the evils of capitalism. What else could explain the insane actions of the KM? Certainly not the plain letter teachings of communism? Never!

The irony is what did it. The irony I tells you!

Post: #313

Just curious Traktor: Are you from an ex-comunist country, or just living in one right now? Did you knew directly the life under a comunist regime?

Post: #314

Turns out an American has been detained in NK just today. http://us.cnn.com/2017/04/23/asia/americ...index.html

What I found most interesting from the article though:
At least two other US citizens are known to be in North Korean custody.
Otto Warmbier, 21, a student at the University of Virginia, was detained at Pyongyang airport on January 2 last year after visiting the country with a tour group. He has since been sentenced to 15 years of hard labor for allegedly removing a political sign from a hotel wall.

Good to here Kim Jong Dung is hard on crime!

Post: #315

(04-23-2017 08:01 AM)Leonard D Neubache Wrote:  

(04-22-2017 10:52 AM)Traktor Wrote:  ...
The irony was that the KR, was armed, trained, funded and salaried by the US/UK in a proxy war in Indochina very much like ISIS and al-Qaeda is today in another proxy war this time in Syria. Plus their kill count is approaching that of the KR.

The irony. The bizarre and unbelievable irony. You know what's ironic? Gang bangers are killing each other on the street but it's actually the steel and plastics industries that are putting the guns in their hands at the end of the day.

So who's really to blame? The ninth street crips or Joe American at the steel mill?

Those poor, poor communists. Tricked into genociding men, women, children and babies. Not with guns I suppose, but we have to assume that the American guns were somehow possessed with the evils of capitalism. What else could explain the insane actions of the KM? Certainly not the plain letter teachings of communism? Never!

The irony is what did it. The irony I tells you!

Especially when Reagan and Thatcher were backing same genocidal forces in the 80s against Vietnam.

Post: #316

(04-22-2017 11:28 AM)Enigma Wrote:  

(04-22-2017 10:52 AM)Traktor Wrote:  The irony was that the KR, was armed, trained, funded and salaried by the US/UK in a proxy war in Indochina very much like ISIS and al-Qaeda is today in another proxy war this time in Syria. Plus their kill count is approaching that of the KR.

No, it wasn't. The Khmer Rouge was funded by China and brought into power through direct military intervention by North Vietnamese.

The US/UK only funded the Khmer Rouge AFTER they were overthrown and the Vietnamese had installed a puppet, former KR member Hun Sen as prime minister and proceeded to militarily occupy the country for a decade.

All of this is basic fact backed up by a wide variety of sources.

Here is an essay from a professor of Asian studies at the Russian Academy of Sciences that details all of this using sources directly from the Soviet archives.

https://www.files.ethz.ch/isn/46645/GS20.pdf

Of course, you already know all this because we had this exact same discussion in the Trump thread like a week ago. Your style of argument is incredibly intellectually dishonest.

No I'm not being dishonest at all. I pointed out that in the previous thread that the KR were part of the National United Front of Kampuchea against the military dictatorship of Lon Nol. That coalition included the Viet Cong, Muslims, democrats, liberals, conservatives and monarchists and it was headed by King Norodom Sihanouk the deposed king. The pro US coup of 1970 put an end to Cambodia's neutrality and destabilised the country.

When the KR emerged victorious in 1975, they began liquidating anybody they saw as a threat including their former allies. The entire Muslim population was wiped out.

Post: #317

(04-23-2017 01:10 PM)Mekorig Wrote:  Just curious Traktor: Are you from an ex-comunist country, or just living in one right now? Did you knew directly the life under a comunist regime?

I'm living in Belarus right now.

Post: #318

(04-23-2017 04:38 PM)Vicious Wrote:  Turns out an American has been detained in NK just today. http://us.cnn.com/2017/04/23/asia/americ...index.html

What I found most interesting from the article though:
At least two other US citizens are known to be in North Korean custody.
Otto Warmbier, 21, a student at the University of Virginia, was detained at Pyongyang airport on January 2 last year after visiting the country with a tour group. He has since been sentenced to 15 years of hard labor for allegedly removing a political sign from a hotel wall.

Good to here Kim Jong Dung is hard on crime!

This story is pretty old. They forced him to apologize and cry on live television. That would suck

Post: #319

(04-23-2017 05:46 PM)Traktor Wrote:  ...
No I'm not being dishonest at all. I pointed out that in the previous thread that the KR were part of the National United Front of Kampuchea against the military dictatorship of Lon Nol. That coalition included the Viet Cong, Muslims, democrats, liberals, conservatives and monarchists and it was headed by King Norodom Sihanouk the deposed king. The pro US coup of 1970 put an end to Cambodia's neutrality and destabilised the country.

When the KR emerged victorious in 1975, they began liquidating anybody they saw as a threat including their former allies. The entire Muslim population was wiped out.

So just to be clear, who's responsible for killing millions of innocent men, women, children and babies in Cambodia?

The powerbrokers that put certain events in play, or the actual communists who actually killed the men, women, children and babies on the orders of their communist leaders in conformity with communist doctrines.

Who's responsible for the as-to-now unbeaten death toll of the Chinese famine under Mao?

Same for The Holomodor?

And just for fun, since this is obviously a topic you've researched extensively and we're all sure you'd never go off half-cocked with generic diatribe, why don't you give us a basic breakdown of deaths directly attributable to capitalist empire and we'll see how they tally up.

Post: #320

(04-23-2017 07:17 PM)Leonard D Neubache Wrote:  

(04-23-2017 05:46 PM)Traktor Wrote:  ...
No I'm not being dishonest at all. I pointed out that in the previous thread that the KR were part of the National United Front of Kampuchea against the military dictatorship of Lon Nol. That coalition included the Viet Cong, Muslims, democrats, liberals, conservatives and monarchists and it was headed by King Norodom Sihanouk the deposed king. The pro US coup of 1970 put an end to Cambodia's neutrality and destabilised the country.

When the KR emerged victorious in 1975, they began liquidating anybody they saw as a threat including their former allies. The entire Muslim population was wiped out.

So just to be clear, who's responsible for killing millions of innocent men, women, children and babies in Cambodia?

The powerbrokers that put certain events in play, or the actual communists who actually killed the men, women, children and babies on the orders of their communist leaders in conformity with communist doctrines.

Who's responsible for the as-to-now unbeaten death toll of the Chinese famine under Mao?

Same for The Holomodor?

You do know that's a hoax, right?

Post: #321

(04-23-2017 07:17 PM)Leonard D Neubache Wrote:  

(04-23-2017 05:46 PM)Traktor Wrote:  Same for The Holomodor?

You do know that's a hoax, right?

Post: #322

^Yeah, and he conspicuously ignored all the others.

Standard left wing debate tactic. Ignore the vast bulk of the evidence against you and try to pivot to one single point, no matter how ridiculous your rebuttal is.

Post: #323

Wait, so NK can't provide electricity to its own citizens but it still poses an enormous danger to world peace...?

Post: #324

delete

Post: #325

(04-23-2017 05:47 PM)Traktor Wrote:  

(04-23-2017 01:10 PM)Mekorig Wrote:  Just curious Traktor: Are you from an ex-comunist country, or just living in one right now? Did you knew directly the life under a comunist regime?

I'm living in Belarus right now.

But, have you lived under a comunist regime, or you just get your information from documental archives and the comments that lived trough it?

As a side note, let me tell you that i disagree with you about the Holodomor, and to be civil lets that stay that way.