Post: #1

In response to the Stoic and Epicurean lounge, I jokingly posted about a Cynic's lounge; not in the modern colloquial sense, but in the original sense of "dog-like." The idea behind being "dog-like" was that one was living in a state of nature, taking care of needs as they arose and without adding unnecessary needs on top of that.

That being said, the poster-boy for cynicism and the inspiration for Zeno's stoicism was Diogenes of Sinope. He wrote nothing himself, but much of what he said was recorded by others. While much of what he did was absolutely bonkers, there are lessons we can learn from him, without going overboard, which is essentially what Zeno did when he began his school of stoicism.

With that, I'll jot down a few of my favorite tales of Diogenes, for discussion.

The first I already posted in the Stoicism lounge. Diogenes was caught masturbating in the marketplace. When confronted, he answered, "If only I could relieve hunger by rubbing my belly!"

Diogenes slept in a sacred wine jar outside the temple of Cybele, deeming it all that was necessary to stay safe from the weather.

When he arrived in Athens, his slave Manes escaped from him. His thoughts on the matter: "If Manes can live without Diogenes, why not Diogenes without Manes?"

He threw away one of his few possessions, a wooden bowl, when he saw a peasant boy drinking water out of his hands, shouting, "All this time, I've been carrying dead weight!"

In a similar vein, he would eat in the marketplace after buying food, a social faux pas at the time, as well as in the forum during debates, which irked his opponents to no end. He also defecated in the forum once, as he did not want to leave the discussion at the time.

He was a follower of Antisthenes, a student of Socrates, who did not like him and once beat him with his staff, and Diogenes told him, "Strike! For you will find no wood hard enough to keep me away from you, so long as I think you've something to say."

He had a rivalry with another student of Socrates, Plato, and this came to a head when he heard Plato say that Socrates defined man as "a featherless biped." Diogenes grabbed a chicken, plucked it bare while still alive, and ran into the forum with it above his head, screaming, "Behold! A man!" Plato then amended the definition to "a featherless biped with nails."

Last, and probably the best tale is this: Alexander the Great had heard of Diogenes, and went to Athens to find him and thank him for his philosophical work. Alexander found Diogenes lying outstretched in the sun, and walked up to him, saying, "You are truly a wise philosopher. I have read what others have written of you, and admire it greatly. If there is anything at all I can do for you, in all of the empire, name it." Diogenes stared at him for a moment and answered, "Get out of my sunlight." Alexander then laughed and said, "Had I not been born Alexander, I should like to have been born Diogenes."

So there you have it. While his asceticism and lack of impulse-control are quite extreme, the lessons remain: don't let society (in his case, decadent Athenian society) affect your actions, minimalist living, don't add unnecessary needs, and point out nonsense when you see it.

Thanks for reading.

Post: #2

I am not a fan of Diogenes philosophy, but I am amazed how within short time span so many different philosophers lived who had so many different philosophies that they still are basis of modern philosophic thought. They are all so different in their approach, but they all knew each other. Diogenes was a follower of Antisthenes, a student of Socrates, just like Plato who also was student of Socrates and mentor of Aristotle. All of them had their unique philosophies that were sometimes diametrically different, despite them being influenced by each other. No doubt there are more philosophers who knew any of these already mentioned. It's like in those days everyone started his own different philosophic movement that still echoes today. How could they be so close yet so various in their views and productive in their own unique variety is pretty amazing.

Someone should make/find a chart of notable philosophers of antiquity linking those where were mentors/ students/peers of each other.

Post: #3

Sounds like he had a true DGAF attitude. Told the king of the world to fuck off out of his sunlight.

Post: #4

(03-15-2017 08:42 AM)YoungBlade Wrote:   He also defecated in the forum once, as he did not want to leave the discussion at the time.

Wait...doesn't everyone ?

Post: #5

(03-15-2017 09:53 AM)Mage Wrote:  I am not a fan of Diogenes philosophy, but I am amazed how within short time span so many different philosophers lived who had so many different philosophies that they still are basis of modern philosophic thought. They are all so different in their approach, but they all knew each other. Diogenes was a follower of Antisthenes, a student of Socrates, just like Plato who also was student of Socrates and mentor of Aristotle. All of them had their unique philosophies that were sometimes diametrically different, despite them being influenced by each other. No doubt there are more philosophers who knew any of these already mentioned. It's like in those days everyone started his own different philosophic movement that still echoes today. How could they be so close yet so various in their views and productive in their own unique variety is pretty amazing.

Someone should make/find a chart of notable philosophers of antiquity linking those where were mentors/ students/peers of each other.

On one of my bumming days we were going back to our cave in the beach with my two fellow inhabitants at the time and we were touching upon shit ton of random "deep" subjects and our viewpoints contrasted quite starkly.
Nothing really memorable about our discussion except the epiphany I had at that moment that many philosophers probably engaged in this type of daily debate with their aquaintances which would explain why a group like the classic greek ones -as you mention- all developed within such a short span of time?

Post: #6

(03-15-2017 03:28 PM)El_Gostro Wrote:  

(03-15-2017 09:53 AM)Mage Wrote:  I am not a fan of Diogenes philosophy, but I am amazed how within short time span so many different philosophers lived who had so many different philosophies that they still are basis of modern philosophic thought. They are all so different in their approach, but they all knew each other. Diogenes was a follower of Antisthenes, a student of Socrates, just like Plato who also was student of Socrates and mentor of Aristotle. All of them had their unique philosophies that were sometimes diametrically different, despite them being influenced by each other. No doubt there are more philosophers who knew any of these already mentioned. It's like in those days everyone started his own different philosophic movement that still echoes today. How could they be so close yet so various in their views and productive in their own unique variety is pretty amazing.

Someone should make/find a chart of notable philosophers of antiquity linking those where were mentors/ students/peers of each other.

On one of my bumming days we were going back to our cave in the beach with my two fellow inhabitants at the time and we were touching upon shit ton of random "deep" subjects and our viewpoints contrasted quite starkly.
Nothing really memorable about our discussion except the epiphany I had at that moment that many philosophers probably engaged in this type of daily debate with their aquaintances which would explain why a group like the classic greek ones -as you mention- all developed within such a short span of time?

Good company and good herb will someday save the world

Post: #7

(03-15-2017 09:53 AM)Mage Wrote:  but I am amazed how within short time span so many different philosophers lived who had so many different philosophies that they still are basis of modern philosophic thought. They are all so different in their approach, but they all knew each other.

It becomes even more astounding when you consider that besides the philosophers, at roughly the same time and place, you also had the first and to this day some of the greatest dramatists (Aeschylus, Sophocles, Euripides), historians (Herodotus, Xenophon, Thucydides), and statesmen/generals (Pericles, Themistocles, etc).

You can find a somewhat analogous situation among the greatest composers in Classical Music. J.S. Bach had a composer son who was friends with Mozart, for whom Beethoven played in front of as a child; and Franz Liszt played for Beethoven when he was a child, and Richard Wagner was married to Franz Liszt's daughter. That more or less covers the highlights of the development of Classical music, and you can trace them all to each other in a straight line.

Post: #8

(03-15-2017 09:53 AM)Mage Wrote:  Someone should make/find a chart of notable philosophers of antiquity linking those where were mentors/ students/peers of each other.

Post: #9

So he was basically a mix of El Mech and Cr33pin of antiquity.

Post: #10

(03-16-2017 11:10 AM)Thomas the Rhymer Wrote:  

(03-15-2017 09:53 AM)Mage Wrote:  Someone should make/find a chart of notable philosophers of antiquity linking those where were mentors/ students/peers of each other.

This chart is missing some famous post Socratic names, but it's a start. Thank you Thomas.

Post: #11

Bumping my own thread

A little background on Diogenes. He was originally a minter, like his father, in the town of Sinope in Illyria. He was banished for defacing the currency (literally removing the faces from the coins). This was a political move at the time, as the Greeks claimed Sinope, and would only accept coins with their rulers' faces on it, while at the same time the Persians claimed Sinope, and would only accept currency with their emperor's face on it. Removing the faces made them neutral currency, but both empires hated it. Thus, Diogenes was banished. He went to the Oracle of Delphi to learn what he should do next, and he was told "Deface the currency." He took this to mean a spiritual defacement: remove all influence, and simply be. Hence his career in cynicism.