Post: #26

(03-08-2017 03:58 PM)Mufasa Wrote:  

(03-08-2017 03:01 PM)The_e_man Wrote:  I (purposely even) give off the Mr. Nightclub Fuckboi vibe simple because it just works for me.

They no longer need men for economic survival / comfort and thus they can have much more sex for fun now.

There it is. All of your problem right there.

Quote:I (purposely even) give off the Mr. Nightclub Fuckboi vibe simple because it just works for me.

Just like the actual qualification for a girl as long term prospect begins after we have fucked them so does ours. What happens after the lay--this is where your beta tendencies have to come into play. The shit that she writes on her POF profile--that shit.
Are you feeding her, cuddling with her, nourishing her (paying or cooking food), opening doors for her, etc. Those are the things that make her want to see you again if the dick is good.

Quote:They no longer need men for economic survival / comfort and thus they can have much more sex for fun now.

Girls don't like feeling like a used slut no matter what they say about being proud and shit and thats why she's ghosting you. When she thinks about you she thinks about what a slut she is and its uncomfortable. Girls avoid discomfort like its the plague. And unlike us their abundance mentality is actually an abundance reality--she will find another dude.

After you fuck them you must treat them like more than that, cook them breakfast, take them out for brunch, cuddle them, hug them, kiss them, open their doors, ogle them. Now when they think about you they remember that and that you fucked them silly.

Once you've gotten the lay you have won. If you want to see them again treat them like you want to "see" them again. Thats not beta at all when done from a position of strength and proper frame control. Hell you can even tell them "I want to see you again" and take her number down.
If you don't want to see them again then don't treat them like you want to see them again.

I think Mufasa nailed it. If OP takes it to heart he'll get where he wants.

The whole beta/alpha paradigm needs to die. It may have been useful in the late 2000s and earlier in the decade but it's usefulness has been outlived. It's now moved into common usage and been obfuscated by the masses and even some of our dear forum members.

From a position of power a girl can't use you if you don't let her. You already got the pussy; cat's out of the bag. Why do you want to keep a girl around anyway? You like their company? Don't supplicate, but act like it. Push her out to have fun and new experiences with you and bang her every few hours during. As a man you are the unstoppable driving force in your interaction and you bend it to your will.

You don't even have to try very hard, you know how boring most people are? Netflix and chill has it's time and place, but it won't hook a girl very hard. Capture them and bring them into your world and make them have fun. Take them shooting, go see some scenery, make her try new food, cook your best dish and make her clean it up (believe me, she will probably offer). If you have money you have more options, but even if you don't the things I just listed are $20.00 experiences or less.

Be creative and have fun. If you're having fun so will she, and she will love you for it.

If OP is having a hard time even making it to that point I would ] consider re-adjusting your game; less "cool club fuckboy" to more "most interesting man in the world".

Post: #27

Are most of these girls coming from club or nightlife approaches?

I've posted about this on the Lounge recently because I have the exact opposite "problem":

(03-04-2017 09:42 AM)Ringo Wrote:  The initial steps (and by that I mean first 5min) of gaming a girl are usually my biggest hurdle. If I can talk to them for 10 minutes, I'll probably bang. And if I do, they cling to me >90% of time.

A few ideas come to mind:

1. (As pointed out,) Your Fuckboi vibe is not FWB, much less Mini-Relationship, and definitely not LTR material.

2. You're boring and/or offer no value. Related to the point above. Girls seek drama and entertainment so they don't have to think about their boring lives. If you occupy their mind - be that because you're a badboy they want to fix, an amazing man they want to tag along with - they cling to you.

3. The girls were intoxicated and don't want to hang out after they sober up. I know guys who prey on girls who are drunk because they make for easier targets, but that's a shortsighted game.

4. Your vibe is incongruent. This would be my bet. You pick up girls with your Fuckboi vibe, which with 100+ lays you have down to a science, but you break character after the bang. Thirsty messaging, beta tendencies, boring behavior.

Breaking character can be done side-to-side (alpha club promoter volunteers at the homeless shelter; powerlifter that loves dogs and kids) or down-up (plain-looking guy who changes clothes and reveals bodybuilder physique). These add value and depth to your persona.

If you go up-down (fuckboi turned beta), it dries pussy up. Makes it look like the fuckboi they met was a faker.

Just to illustrate why I think I have such high retention, but comparatively lower notch count:

First, I'm a down-up guy. Girls see me, they think I have good style but I'm pretty vanilla. I don't drink, so 95% of time I approach I'm stone cold sober (the other 5% I might have smoked a joint, but definitely not shitfaced).

So I approach them, and they see this sober, vanilla guy trying to spit game at them, sometimes with higher sometimes lower energy. If I can survive the first 10min, they're hooked, and I'm either going home with them or at least their number.

When I get them to come home, they get the "up" part of the down-up.

I live at a cool spot, with tasteful and cozy decoration. I photograph, play the guitar, know good music and how to create a vibe.

We get to the bedroom. I'm in six-pack shape from calisthenics, which they couldn't quite see in clothes. I grab them and toss them around - I'm strong from years of grappling.

We get done and go to the kitchen. I can cook like a motherfucker.

And here's the kicker. When they leave, I don't contact them.

I've had at least 2 girls in rotation for the past 8 months. I've got a lot going on with work and school, so I have 2-3 days I can meet girls or friends. If I have 2 days free, one day I'll invite a plate over, the other one I'll go out solo or with buddies and try to get a new chick.

Because they get so much value from going out with me, and I do give myself to them when we're together, it fucks with their mind that we don't talk for 7, 10, 15 days. I never lie or play them, IF THEY ASK I tell them I'm open to whatever, but I have a lot going on and enjoy being single.

So maybe you sell yourself like a champ and after the deed is done they see a chump? Could you be rushing to contact them and schedule another meet? Are you giving them situations/experiences that are exciting?

Post: #28

Ringo, I believe you also may be on to something.
I think I sell myself as a "top guy" right away and put all the fuckboi cards right on the table.
I'm thinking I'm simply selling myself to the demographic of girls that night that just want fast sex with an asshole player.

This is because this was always my goal from the beginning, to fuck a bunch of girls all the time.
But now I think a part of it might be ego: I want the girls to all like / love me after and want to see me again and try and lock me down. I don't like when I don't get any chase after, or if the girls just ghost me or only weakly reply to me.

Post: #29

(03-11-2017 12:38 PM)The_e_man Wrote:  This is because this was always my goal from the beginning, to fuck a bunch of girls all the time.
But now I think a part of it might be ego: I want the girls to all like / love me after and want to see me again and try and lock me down. I don't like when I don't get any chase after, or if the girls just ghost me or only weakly reply to me.

This has been one of my biggest game frustrations. My rate of retention has been terrible lately. Since getting into game, maybe 25% of the girls I've slept with have chased or tried to 'lock' me down. Most of the time it's the girls ghosting. Instinct has led me to believe it's likely a combination of incongruity and weak texting on my part. Might also be a byproduct of living in NYC and the way most young girls behave around here.

Post: #30

(03-11-2017 12:38 PM)The_e_man Wrote:  I think I sell myself as a "top guy" right away and put all the fuckboi cards right on the table.
I'm thinking I'm simply selling myself to the demographic of girls that night that just want fast sex with an asshole player.

Yes and no. Its not about selling yourself as the "top guy" and more about touching her in a way beyond her vagiana: mentally or emotionally. You have to assume that she fucks guys that fit your demographic so you have to take that off the table of reasons she should keep seeing you.

"asshole player" is the bare minimum requirement that everyone she fucks meets so in that sense you are no longer special--that is what we are getting at. You can still be asshole player but be more than that.

Post: #31

Mufasa, what are some suggestions for transcending past simply being an asshole player?
I meet her at a club, spit some game, then either pull her myself or me and my lads pull her and her friends somewhere to "after party" (i.e. go to a random apartment to drink more liquor, listen to some music, play beerpong or whatever, then fuck).
It's a pretty basic formula so what can I do besides that to make a girl more into me?

This is a huge sticking point for me and it's taking a big toll on my self-esteem with women.
To me, a girl ghosting after sex is essentially her "buyer's remorse" - the same type of buyer's remorse I get when I'm desperate enough to fuck an unattractive chubby girl and then feel like absolute shit after.

Post: #32

(03-11-2017 02:02 PM)Player_1337 Wrote:  

(03-11-2017 12:38 PM)The_e_man Wrote:  This is because this was always my goal from the beginning, to fuck a bunch of girls all the time.
But now I think a part of it might be ego: I want the girls to all like / love me after and want to see me again and try and lock me down. I don't like when I don't get any chase after, or if the girls just ghost me or only weakly reply to me.

This has been one of my biggest game frustrations. My rate of retention has been terrible lately. Since getting into game, maybe 25% of the girls I've slept with have chased or tried to 'lock' me down. Most of the time it's the girls ghosting. Instinct has led me to believe it's likely a combination of incongruity and weak texting on my part. Might also be a byproduct of living in NYC and the way most young girls behave around here.

Somewhat comforting knowing someone else is also going through this sticking point.
How much blame do you think we can put on ourselves for this, versus how much "blame" can we put it on it just being the way women are these days and chalking it up as a matter of circumstance?

Post: #33

(03-11-2017 05:58 PM)The_e_man Wrote:  Mufasa, what are some suggestions for transcending past simply being an asshole player?
I meet her at a club, spit some game, then either pull her myself or me and my lads pull her and her friends somewhere to "after party" (i.e. go to a random apartment to drink more liquor, listen to some music, play beerpong or whatever, then fuck).
It's a pretty basic formula so what can I do besides that to make a girl more into me?

Not gunna lie but that sounded dry as fuck, Gunna sound wack and blue pill af but be yourself

Im sure theres more to it than what you wrote above but it sounds like your running the fucking play book the way it was written to a T--good for a beginning player that needs to put numbers up. For intermediate and definitely not for the higher levels if I had to guess.

Im going to assume you're not a beginner lol. Things like your personal quirks and personality have to start coming out as you go off script to define your game.

My basketball coach in HS said it the best:

Coach: "Mufasa...Youre playing like a bitch!"
Me: "You said to run your offense?"
Coach: "GODDAMN IT!! Look if he's guarding you that tight FUCK the offense. Rip through and take is ASS TO THE FUCKING HOLE!"

Point being that the playbook is a frame work. Textbook game is a framework to score and it works. But while you're running the play sometimes you see opportunities to score that don't necessarily need you to run the rest of the play.
You don't have to be so textbook--add your flavor, the things that make you you. Its been said repeatedly if you look closely at your thread--do things beyond what she normally gets.

Quote:I meet her at a club, spit some game, then either pull her myself or me and my lads pull her and her friends somewhere to "after party"

How often do you think she meets guys that invite her to after parties. See what Im saying. Take a hard look at your playbook and see what things are probably typical of guys that try to fuck her and change those to be more exciting/interesting in accordance to who/what you are as a person.

Instead of an afterparty take everyone skinny dipping.
Instead of meeting her at the club and spitting game, start dancing and twirling her while no one else is dancing.
In my game I'm doing things that make me stand alone as that awesome outlier.
There are many ways that do this and THAT is what makes her stay.
When you look at the rest of the advice you've gotten here it all adds up to standing out above the crowd of other players and orbiters. The things that we have suggested here as a player make you stand out because most other players are doing what you're doing--just running a play.

Quote:Maybe start practicing a different approach like day game? Something more low energy that requires a different skill set. Something that requires you to be more warm and genuine.

Also what do you have going on in your life besides banging sluts and partying? Is your lifestyle and success interesting and high value? Are driven, motivated, ambitious, and inspiring in what you set out to do and your goals in life? Does your manner and energy command respect and admiration of others? Have you achieved any great things in your life? These are the kinds of things a woman wants in a man for long term.

Quote:there is something in your game that isn't giving these girls comfort.

Quote:Are you feeding her, cuddling with her, nourishing her (paying or cooking food), opening doors for her, etc. Those are the things that make her want to see you again if the dick is good.

Quote:A strong, masculine man with a "secret soft side" is like crack to women. That is their bread and butter. A woman who finds a man who is nothing but a man who shows sparing moments of gentle compassion and sensitivity is a woman who knows she has something special that she needs to hang on to.

Quote:Like I said, make a girl feel more comfortable and intrigued so she is open to the idea of wanted to spend more time with you and bang you more. Having good sex helps too but honestly I think that "fucking her right" is overrated. Plenty of girls leave the best sex of their life as a one night stand.

It all points towards upping your game to be beyond your fuck and chuck ways





For me I always try to remember that girls are absolutely fucking retards. They live in disney world. Your game could be amazing, you could be totally fucking awesome and show her the time of her life and in the am kiss her and put her in a cab...and she would never call you back.

why?....

....cuz fucking disney wold thats why. It was a perfect night and she wants to cherish that memory the way it is. I wrote earlier that girls run from discomfort like the plague and why would she want to create the chance for you to potentially ruin such a pristine memory. Know what I mean.

Thats why my first post to you was about what you are doing after the sex. That for me makes a girl keep the memory open ended. it no longer has an "ending" instead she's forced to continue our adventure post sex. If I play my cards right she will see that this interaction is better left open ended to continue

Post: #34

I posted this before because I was running into the same problem.
My problem was a little different but similar in chicks ghosting after the bang. Here is how I solved it. Simple terms, you need to fuck them three times. I was running into a pattern of fucking girls 1-2 times going on 2-3 dates and them going cold. I spoke with a guy who has over 500 lays and at any given time has 6-12 girls on his rotation, he said he was running into a similar problem and spoke with other advance guys to come up with this "rule" and formula. He told me a good way to go about it is first date do drinks or coffee and bang her(get to know her better). Second date do something fun like Dave and Busters or comedy show and third date do something romantic like dinner at a restaurant, bang her after both dates and she gets to see multiple aspects of your personality and she is pretty solid on your rotation after that. Also try to set up the next date especially the first three in person at the end of the date, so at end of date one set date 2 up so she is thinking about it. He gave me a text flow chart I follow, but basically don't try to get to get too cute over text, use it as way to remind about meet ups, especially till you bang her three times because she will be more invested. Different girls its different, like a girl who it took 4 dates to bang would be more invested after the initial bang then a chick you pulled from a nightclub but the three bang "rule" is a good one to follow, don't take a chick forgranted till you bang her three times.

Post: #35

Some tips to make chicks come back around.

1. Fuck them real good

2. Cuddle

3. Let them stay the night

4. Make them breakfast in the morning. What I make them depends on how the sex was.

Boring lifeless sex= cereal
Ok sex= scrambled eggs, sausage links
Great sex= eggs, hash browns, bacon, sausage, biscuits

Post: #36

^^I just burst out laughing at the thought of taking a girl downstairs for breakfast and serving her some frosted flakes. Fucking classic lol

Post: #37

Sounds like I definitely need to step my game up.
The fact that I don't even do "dates" should bring up some red flags.

Only time I've taken a girl out on a date it's usually to a restaurant (the same one I used to work at as a server / bartender). But that's only with girl's that I'm already "seeing" and are in my rotation. I wouldn't take a girl that I haven't already banged on a date. Especially when they come over and fuck just as easily it seems.
Maybe this means I'm only attracting slutty fast girls this way that don't want to stick around past the bang.

But at the same time, back when my game was whack, I would take girls out on "first dates" all the time and end up usually empty handed. I didn't have the balls to be bold enough to just straight up tell a girl to come over and "watch a movie" for our first meet up, I also pedestalized girls and didn't think they would be slutty enough to do that with a guy they never met before and don't even know (hahahahaha, oh how wrong I was).

So what I just thought of is this:
I used to be the opposite of a player: weak beta nice guy. pedestalized girls. Thought that some girls were slutty and others were good and honourable. All that typical AFC jazz.
Now that I "get" women (to an extent) and I've digested the red pill, I think I may have swung too extreme on the other end of the pendulum and became the fuckboi that has fast sex and doesn't even take girls on dates or spend a single dime on them.
I think maybe, with my newfound knowledge and experience, I should start slowly tiptoeing over to the softer more "beta" side of seduction - but this time do it right.

Post: #38

as long as you do these things for girls because you want to enjoy these things you'll be fine.

Post: #39

I think this is a subject that is best fleshed out in person. It's hard to describe or predict certain character nuances over text. Typically, with these kinds of situations, you're doing something obvious that's hurting your chances. I bet if you met an rvf vet up there and opened up to him, you'd get some good feedback.

Regardless, I'm going to state the obvious here. Having quick one night stands with girls often puts you outside of the "repeat bang and grow feelings for box". This isn't always true but I've had a few times where I suspect if I met the girl in a different environment and didn't angle for ONS, the dynamic could have gone in a different direction. In retrospect, I'm definitely guilty to a certain degree with minimizing comfort game post-ONS and just not understanding that a lot of young girls are awkward and fragile, whether they choose to show it or not. An easy mistake to make is putting your guard up, after some girl you ONSed and wanted to see again ghosts, which will repel others from potentially staying with you longer.

One thing I've always been good at is 1v1 convos and showing vulnerability. I usually open up to girls I like post-bang. On first impressions I likely come across as a dumb happy jock, and I've never realized it till typing this, but the vulnerabilities I show are usually in contrast to this. I'll talk about adversity growing up, favorite books/movies, and generally act as a high EQ perspective for whatever these girls say. It's similar to what Ringo says, I start peeling layers back and show a bit of sophistication and nuance beyond the pretty boy exterior.

However, the concern is actually your numbers. You've pulled enough girls that just from percentages alone, a certain amount should have wanted to stick around with you. Or at least come back repeatedly.

When was the last time you found a conservative, homebody girl and slow-burned /courted her? This is the anti RVF approach but I believe it's good for your soul. Find a few of these girls and give it a try. It might help open up a more vulnerable side of you, that can carry over into converting those night leads.

I'd also challenge you to steer a bit away from nightgame. I recently came out of a period of over-relying on online game. The few times I'd get a social circle/daytime lead, I'd throw them down the tinder quick bang funnel and it didn't end up well. Since then, I re-grabbed the reins of a few social circles and more slow-burn LTR opportunities are appearing. I think a lot of guys here develop the much more difficult skill of cold approaching and getting ONSs, but in the process, jettison the slow-burn social circle ins. Ideally, you want to have both and in perfecting one you often ignore the other.

I appreciate how honest and open your are in changing your ways.

Curious what others have to say.

Post: #40

Balkan, I can't for remember the last girl I slow-burned and courted.
Must have been my highschool girlfriend that I dated for about a year and a half.

I really don't like running slow game or "long game" because to me it's too passive and reliant only on your SMV as if the girl already passively likes you she will let the flame occur instead of have you sitting around as a secret draft pick.

Post: #41

I've been thinking about this for a couple of days now, but I can't come up with a good solution.

I should mention that I have the exact opposite problem. Once I am able to sleep with a girl, it is hard for me to get them to forget about me and leave me alone. This includes girls that I've had terrible sex with (meaning I was bad in bed, not her) and also SNLs.

You mentioned you're very direct as am I, but how much do you get to know the girl and let her know that you like certain things about her other than her looks? What is the after sex conversation like?

I really don't know what the issue could be other than what others have said, build more comfort and stop giving off the player vibe.

Also, I don't think you need to change anything leading up to the sex, which is why I asked what the after sex conversation is like, but you might need to change things up after the act itself is done.

Post: #42

(03-13-2017 09:00 PM)StackGsMan Wrote:  I've been thinking about this for a couple of days now, but I can't come up with a good solution.

I should mention that I have the exact opposite problem. Once I am able to sleep with a girl, it is hard for me to get them to forget about me and leave me alone. This includes girls that I've had terrible sex with (meaning I was bad in bed, not her) and also SNLs.

You mentioned you're very direct as am I, but how much do you get to know the girl and let her know that you like certain things about her other than her looks? What is the after sex conversation like?

I really don't know what the issue could be other than what others have said, build more comfort and stop giving off the player vibe.

Also, I don't think you need to change anything leading up to the sex, which is why I asked what the after sex conversation is like, but you might need to change things up after the act itself is done.

I can resonate with your response very well. The "quality" of sex in my experience (sample size over 100 so it's not a one-off anecdotal report I'm giving) has zero bearing on how much the girl likes me after.
Like I said, I have problems with retaining most girls after I bang them, but I still do have some retention (just not at the rate I'm happy with). And with some of the girl's that absolutely loved me, I fucked them for maybe 2 minutes before cumming. Just because I simply wanted to focus on myself and it made me cum quick. I'm scared to say this on the forum because I'm worried that most guys will point towards that being my issue when I'm fairly certain it isn't the case.

But anyways, one change I'm going to make is to start complimenting girl's on something other than their looks or how good their pussy feels on my dick.

Another quick point I want to make is it seems the really hot girls are the one's I have the most trouble retaining. I'm starting to think it's just coming down to them having a boatload of high quality options constantly trying to lock them down. I think I'm a pretty good player, but I don't think I'm at "dream guy" status yet.

Post: #43

Sounds like there's a lot of good advice here. Keep us updated on how it goes.

To see results from changes in behavior, in my mind, takes three or six months. You may get some quick wins, but if you're serious about making this change, it's going to take some time to see results.

Also, is daygame not an option for where you live or your schedule?

Post: #44

Thanks Jagnum.
Honestly I have some pretty big mental roadblocks in my head about daygaming.
Back when I was first starting out and was more or less a loser, I could go daygaming with ease. I would daygame a lot at the mall or at university campus.
Now that I have some results under my belt (and the accompanying ego, for better or for worse), and I'm somewhat involved in some social circles with some absolutely gorgeous girls, I just feel super weird and creepy daygaming.
I know that this is blasphemy to talk down on daygaming in this forum, and I used to absolutely LOVE daygaming. I loved the rush.
But I freeze like a stone now if I even think about daygaming. It's really weird and I'd like to get over this hurdle.

Post: #45

I hear you. If you're in a somewhat smaller city, makes total sense.

Roosh did his whole tour of the Midwest, I recall reading not long ago, and people kept telling him about how cold approaching makes no sense, when you have social circles.

http://www.rooshv.com/10-things-i-learne...an-midwest

Here it is, I found it:

Thanks to my trip to the Midwest, I finally understand why so many guys don’t understand me and often spout game denialist statements like, “Game is stupid, you just have to be a good guy and have some friends.” They say these things because they have a deep social network or are from smaller cities where game does not work in the same way it does in the big cities, or at least where it’s not as required to meet a girl who weighs less than 140 pounds.

I’m not going to change my advice to deal with small towns, especially since most of my readers live in big cities, but at least now I understand why so many men don’t see the point of what I teach. If only I was as lucky as them to grow up in a normal town with normal people whose minds aren’t addicted to the junk that comes out of New York City and Hollywood. Since I’m not, and since I continue to live in big cities, I must use game practices to sleep with women I desire, but now I’m definitely curious about other places in America that could be even better than what I saw in the Midwest."

Post: #46

Very interesting. I'm in Edmonton, Alberta, Canada. A city of about 800k people. It's a very spread out and geographically covers a lot of area.
Not sure if 800k people constitutes as a "small" or "large" city.

Post: #47

About the day game, don't do it man. You probably already know this since you said you did some day game in the past, but it is a pain in the ass and it takes a lot of effort for not so much reward. You're going to have to put up with low conversion rates, flakes, dating, and all that stuff.

My notches have been heavily from day game because I used to be uncomfortable with night game and don't like alcohol, and I feel like I've wasted a ton of time. Keep doing what you're doing that has gotten you this much success, but just start to experiment with new ways of steering the interaction.

About the "dream guy" comment. I've read a lot of your posts and you often bring up being short or other reasons why you feel less than ideal. You need to understand that with your numbers for your age you are among the top tiers of players. Yes, there are other guys out there better than you, but you are in "dream guy" status as far as your game goes, or else you are the luckiest SOB in the world.

Just keep grinding and with time you'll figure things out.

Post: #48

Thanks Stacks, I needed to hear that. Appreciate it brother.

Post: #49

Thats a pretty unusual thing to happen. Usually what turns a girl on for one night will at least keep her around for at least a few more dates. Usually if the sex was really good a woman will come back a few times just for that(in my opinion if a woman is getting 1% sex she is 85 percent happy even if the guy is an axe murderer) Is there any way that you are sabotaging yourself? There are some psychologies where you desperately want intimacy(like sex) but then are scared of engulfment once you have it. A relationship can be scary because you open yourself to criticism. Its hard to know for sure but yes something very odd is going on.

Post: #50

i used to think the same thing when I first started seriously putting up numbers. I think eventually you get good at pulling the girls in with your frame for sex that it becomes a screening tool against ourselves. Our frame is screening us into ONS qualifiers.

Thats when some subtle provider tendencies can to throw a wrench into things