Post: #526

Let's drop a bit this "there is more chance to be killed in "xxx" than in "xxx" ....... it's just a emotional reaction to a bombing. Would you feel safer in Paris than Rio or Sao Paulo ? .....definitely yes ....in Paris I can go out at night with my 20K € watch or stroll around daytime with my 800 € Dita sunglasses without ANY fear. In Brasil ? ....you have to be dressed like a slob to stroll around (see my above post about current crime situation in Rio). And even dressed like a slob, as a gringo you have good chances to get mugged. Insecurity is not about being killed, but about feeling comfortable enough to stroll SAFELY around and wear whaterver status accessory you want to wear.

So better stop this "being killed" scaremongering. I m a heavy cigar smoker and a heavy drinker, living (part-time) in Paris, and I have 1 000 000 more chances to die from a heart attack than from a bombing.

Feel free to post stats about "chances of being killed in a bombing in France" vs "chances of dying of heart attack when you're a heavy cigar smoker and heavy drinker" lol.

Post: #527

(07-18-2016 07:55 AM)911 Wrote:  Your argument is that only 2 or 3 tourists are killed in a country with 60,000 homicides and 20 million plus visitors annually...

My argument is that high crime countries with a tourist industry like Brazil or the Dominican grossly underreport tourist crime for obvious reasons.

Your whole argument from the beginning was statistics, but now you want me to believe something that you have no evidence of.

Post: #528

(07-18-2016 07:55 AM)911 Wrote:  Your argument is that only 2 or 3 tourists are killed in a country with 60,000 homicides and 20 million plus visitors annually...

My argument is that high crime countries with a tourist industry like Brazil or the Dominican grossly underreport tourist crime for obvious reasons.

If you're going to toss the academic table and declare a statistical conspiracy then there's no point in citing your own numbers. One could simply claim that there are thousands of jihad inspired murders every day that the French government covers up "for obvious reasons".

But if we want to make sense of the statistics provided it's quite simple. Take the video of the guy with the revolver trying to steal the motorcycle. He didn't just shoot his victim six times, did he? Why not? Because mugging someone needn't involve killing them? Because killing a tourist would bring the cops down on you in a massive way?

So while a lot of tourists might get mugged, not many are getting killed because the criminals might be stupid but they're not crazy.

On the other hand, a terrorist's very intention isn't to take your motorcycle or get the contents of your wallet. They're in it for one purpose. To kill you.

That's the difference.

Post: #529

(07-18-2016 07:57 AM)Mercenary Wrote:  ...
From now on the official patriotic national holiday of France is forever tainted and ruined.

Instead of fireworks every year, from now on they will be in mourning for the adults and small children killed and injured in this evil & horrific event....and possibly also in mourning for the slow death of France itself.

When nationalism becomes truly resurgent then the victims of that attack will be remembered as some of the first victims in a war for the soul of the nation. If anything it was a stupid mistake to pick a national holiday to commit this atrocity. The Hebdo and Bataclan massacres will quickly fade as dates for remembrance on the calendar.

Not so in this case.

Post: #530

(07-18-2016 08:09 AM)Vronski Wrote:  Let's drop a bit this "there is more chance to be killed in "xxx" than in "xxx" ....... it's just a fearmongering emotional reaction to a bombing. Would you feel safer in Paris than Rio or Sao Paulo ? .....definitely yes ....in Paris I can go out at night with my 20K € watch or stroll around daytime with my 800 € Dita sunglasses without ANY fear. In Brasil ? ....you have to be dressed like a slob to stroll around (see my above post about current crime situation in Rio). And even dressed like a slob, as a gringo you have good chances to get mugged. Insecurity is not about being killed, but about feeling comfortable enough to stroll around.

So better stop a bit this "being killed" scaremongering. I m a heavy cigar smoker and a heavy drinker, living (part-time) in Paris, and I have 1 000 000 more chances to die from a heart attack than from a bombing.

Did you ever provide sources for the statistics and other information that you completely made up earlier?

I live in the southern Philippines. Almost every Western country lists the region on their travel warning list.

The two Canadians beheaded by Abu Sayyaf a month ago were abducted a couple miles from my condo. And ISIS recently declared an area a couple hundred miles away a "wilayat", a province of their caliphate.

Yet you're claiming that I'm fearmongering about terrorism. If anything, I have a more reasonable view towards the risk of terrorism than most people on this forum.

The truth is that I'm simply explaining basic facts about why many people would rather avoid France as a tourist destination.

- Hundreds of people have been killed by terrorists there over the past year
- The police have shown a complete lack of ability to prevent or stop these attacks
- The attacks take place in areas where people are vulnerable
- The country recently flooded with thousands of extremist Muslims
- The French government recently seized thousands of military-grade weapons

All of these are true. And it's quite clear that these are true, as your argument now is basically just "you better stop staying that!"

The French authorities have no control over the situation in their country and have openly expressed that they have little desire to actually gain control.

Post: #531

Two civilian heroes (one of them, Alexandre Migues, is French, the other might be dead, crushed and unidentified) slowed the islamist truck driver, only then did the police intervened...

http://www.lefigaro.fr/actualite-france/...camion.php

"Il conduisait très lentement, c'est ce qui était étonnant», a poursuivi ce journaliste. «Et il a été suivi par un motard qui roulait derrière lui et le motard a essayé de le dépasser et a même essayé d'ouvrir la portière côté conducteur du camion. Mais il a chuté et il est passé sous les roues du camion.» D'autres témoins affirment avoir vu le motard glisser sous les roues du camion. A-t-il été tué, blessé ou s'en est-il sorti indemne? On est sans nouvelle de celui qui a accompli ce geste héroïque.Alexandre estime que lui et motard ont permis de ralentir le camion. «Sur les vidéos, on voit qu'on a réussi à faire ralentir le camion. J'aurais bien aimé rester plus longtemps accroché pour qu'il puisse rentrer dans le terre plein central ou au moins le freiner suffisamment pour que les gens aient le temps de fuir», ajoute-t-il. Une personne dans la foule a sauté sur le camion pour essayer de l'arrêter, c'est à ce moment-là que les policiers ont pu neutraliser le terroriste», a jugé Ciotti "

translation: The islamist was driving very slowly, that's what was amazing, "said the journalist. "And the truck was followed by a motorcyclist who was riding behind him and the motorcyclist attempted to overtake and even tried to open the door next to the truck driver. But it fell and went under the wheels of the truck. "Other witnesses saw the motorcyclist sliding under the wheels of the truck. Has he been killed, injured or is he unharmed? We have not heard of the man who has accomplished this heroic deed.

Alexander believes that he and the motorcyclist have slowed the truck. "On the video, we see that we managed to slow the truck. I would have loved to stay longer hung clinging to the door so that I could have entered the truck cabine or at least slow down enough so that people have time to escape, "he adds.

"Someone in the crowd jumped on the truck to try to stop it, that is when the police were able to neutralize the terrorist" stated deputy Ciotti

Post: #532

Slightly off topic. Are Japan and China also suffering froma massive influx of muslims? If not, they are the clever ones.

Post: #533

(07-18-2016 04:56 AM)blck Wrote:  

(07-17-2016 06:08 PM)TonySandos Wrote:  

(07-16-2016 05:28 PM)blck Wrote:  

(07-16-2016 01:45 PM)Samseau Wrote:  https://i.sli.mg/zafZ4E.png

This one made me laugh hard, Let's kick them out even if they're white french !

Or just you because you're obviously the problem.

I don't feel bad or "wayyycist!" about this comment at all. IF whatever African country you come from was suffering the same ills, you would have an utter fit if some made a similar comment along the lines that you did.

Why not just be honest instead of cowering behind shallow snark? It's actually legitimate and understandable to say; "As an African(and possibly muslim), this discussion of expelling non-Frank migrants bothers me. I'm concerned that if that were to happen, I would be included. I would like to find solutions that would allow people like myself to stay."

See? That wasn't hard at all, but I don't believe that's your motivation, which is why I suspect you of being a rent seeker. You're caught up trying to bleed a system of its resources rather than contribute to it. You're just the average, despicable pest trying to shame people for daring to secure their survival.

Come on Tony, I live in this country for decade now and I've seen the evolution.

Don't need to feel bad or "wayyycist!" I don't want to know about your feelings, just explain how to expell all muslims or even stop Muslim immigration in France in a "realistic" way that can solve the problem, even knowing that the politics don't want to at all.
My comment was about kicking white converted muslims out as Islam already crossed the race barriers, a lot of them are now married with black and arabian folks here
France colonized a lot of countries and provide work and the french nationality for their citizen as a trade (morocco, senegal, mali, tunisia, algeria, west indies and more) and now you think that they'll kick them out ?

There are too many things at play to let them go (halal market, terror they inspire, and who gonna do the dirty work: collect the garbage or clean the floor of our office...)
The solution would have been to not give them the nationality in the first place and let them go back in their country when they finished their jobs, like other european countries do but those you want to expell are now here for more than 70 years for some, they got (a lot of) childrens who got (a lot of) childrens integrated in the society.

The reality is that the disease already spread

Previous president Sarkozy made a speech yesterday about closing all the mosquee and cult places but do you really think that even if he does it it will solve the problem ?
He also made a speech in 2006 about "how if you don't love France you need to leave" (and then retracted when he got elected) but in the same time under his government a lot of muslim countries closed their doors to european citizen.

All promesses given by those politics are demagogy to get elected, once they're in place nothing move but maybe I'm wrong and they'll do something this time, I'm still here to see how things will go...

PS: About me being an african muslim rent seeker bleeding a system of its resources You are right !

I can't say anything negative about tis because honesty is the best policy and your analysis is correct.

Now on the other hand, just because you're not of Frank ancestry doesn't mean you can't petition against the policies that will lead to a flashpoint being created due to immigration swell. If there's no 'loyalists' sector, both sides will combat on ethnic lines alone.

Post: #534

Gentlemen, I've discovered the computer program that can help us finally navigate Europe safely.



If you notice the very center of Poland is safe. The terrorist sweepers didn't make it past Brussels though, I think they happened to be flying at the wrong time.

Post: #535

(07-18-2016 08:47 AM)Leonard D Neubache Wrote:  

(07-18-2016 07:55 AM)911 Wrote:  Your argument is that only 2 or 3 tourists are killed in a country with 60,000 homicides and 20 million plus visitors annually...

My argument is that high crime countries with a tourist industry like Brazil or the Dominican grossly underreport tourist crime for obvious reasons.

If you're going to toss the academic table and declare a statistical conspiracy then there's no point in citing your own numbers. One could simply claim that there are thousands of jihad inspired murders every day that the French government covers up "for obvious reasons".

But if we want to make sense of the statistics provided it's quite simple. Take the video of the guy with the revolver trying to steal the motorcycle. He didn't just shoot his victim six times, did he? Why not? Because mugging someone needn't involve killing them? Because killing a tourist would bring the cops down on you in a massive way?

So while a lot of tourists might get mugged, not many are getting killed because the criminals might be stupid but they're not crazy.

On the other hand, a terrorist's very intention isn't to take your motorcycle or get the contents of your wallet. They're in it for one purpose. To kill you.

That's the difference.

I agree that the great majority of muggers just want your money. But a good chunk of those 60,000 dead every year in Brazil are from a small fraction of the hundreds of thousands of muggings that went wrong.

To summarize this debate:

-in France, a total of seven terrorists (Charlie, Bataclan, Nice) who have killed 200-300 people, and a few more who might go off in years to come,

versus

-in Brazil, tens, possibly hundreds of thousands of armed robbers who usually do not intend to kill their robbery targets, but still end up killing tens of thousands of victims.

Some will consider France more dangerous, while others like me disagreed on rational grounds.

I'm done with this debate.

Post: #536

Enigma, good, you ve made your (political) point. It's more dangerous to travel to France than to Belem (Brasil), Cali, Tegucigalc (or whatever is the fucking name of the capital of Honduras) or Cape Town. Great advice.

Edit; before being attacked, yes I ve been to Belem, several times, and for extended stays. And yes, even with the bombing risks, I feel muuuuuuuch safer in Paris.

Post: #537

(07-18-2016 11:10 AM)911 Wrote:  I'm done with this debate.

I've found that it's usually the case when someone ends a debate like this that they have no leg to stand on. Here is what you said that set off people talking about statistics. People in this thread have mostly just asked you to provide what YOU claimed to have. Not what anyone else claimed to have. Either you have it, or you don't. You pointed to statistics regarding death rates of tourists, people merely asked you to provide what you claimed to have. The only reason you're done with this debate is because you screwed up making that claim when those statistics don't directly support your conclusion:

Quote:That was my point, and I could back it up with stats comparing the death rates of tourists visiting those countries. FYI France is the most visited country in the world, with 10% of the global tourist trade and 84 million visitors annually.

It'd be simpler to just admit you thought you had tourist death statistics that backed up your conclusion. Everyone makes mistakes, those who are man enough to admit them instead of emotional/rage-quitting get a lot more respect around here.

EDIT: Here's another relevant quote. Your argument from the position of authority and general holier than thou attitude is a stark contrast to your SJW style "I'm done with this debate."

(07-15-2016 12:24 PM)911 Wrote:  Sorry for being a rational man, I can't help it, it's part of my STEM background. My risk assessments are based on science, not on some kind of irrational fear.

Post: #538

(07-18-2016 01:04 PM)AneroidOcean Wrote:  It'd be simpler to just admit you thought you had tourist death statistics that backed up your conclusion. Everyone makes mistakes, those who are man enough to admit them instead of emotional/rage-quitting get a lot more respect around here.

Once more, we got your point. Paris is the most dangerous place on the planet.

As you seem so scared for your life, FYI, about 1 man in 7 will be diagnosed with prostate cancer during his lifetime. Now compare that to the 1 in 4 200 000 chance of dying in France from a terrorist attack.

BTW if you're really scared about going to France, you should play the Lotterie, there's a great 1 in 1 000 000 chances to win.

Post: #539

Well congrats to France they´re safer than Brazil shithole.

Post: #540

(07-18-2016 11:10 AM)911 Wrote:  -in France, a total of seven terrorists (Charlie, Bataclan, Nice) who have killed 200-300 people, and a few more who might go off in years to come,

I know you said you're done with the debate, but I can't help but point out for the other people reading that this is again not even close to being true.

There were 9 terrorists involved in the November 15th attacks alone -- and they hit 6 different locations.

There were 3 for the Januray 15th attacks and they hit 4 different locations and were on the run for days.

There was the Nice attack.

There was the terrorist that stabbed the police officer and his wife, the one who beheaded his boss, the one who shot 4 people on a train before being subdued by American soldiers, the man who rammed his car into French soldiers, the man who ended his own shooting spree when he accidentally shot himself in the leg.

That's 10 attacks, 18 locations, 20 terrorists, 220+ dead, hundreds more seriously injured -- all within 18 months. And that's with 6 of the 10 attacks failing and at least 1 other major attack being stopped beforehand.

Like I said, the situation there is out of control and shows no signs of slowing down.

Post: #541

........

Post: #542

(07-18-2016 01:33 PM)Enigma Wrote:  

(07-18-2016 11:10 AM)911 Wrote:  -in France, a total of seven terrorists (Charlie, Bataclan, Nice) who have killed 200-300 people, and a few more who might go off in years to come,

I know you said you're done with the debate, but I can't help but point out for the other people reading that this is again not even close to being true.

There were 9 terrorists involved in the November 15th attacks alone -- and they hit 6 different locations.

There were 3 for the Januray 15th attacks and they hit 4 different locations and were on the run for days.

There was the Nice attack.

There was the terrorist that stabbed the police officer and his wife, the one who beheaded his boss, the one who shot 4 people on a train before being subdued by American soldiers, the man who rammed his car into French soldiers, the man who ended his own shooting spree when he accidentally shot himself in the leg.

That's 10 attacks, 18 locations, 20 terrorists, 220+ dead, hundreds more seriously injured -- all within 18 months. And that's with 6 of the 10 attacks failing and at least 1 other major attack being stopped beforehand.

Like I said, the situation there is out of control and shows no signs of slowing down.

"the man who ended his own shooting spree when he accidentally shot himself in the leg. ": no, this one (a 24 years old Algerian) actually shot himself in the leg while attempting to reach the spot where he wanted to commit his criminal acts ... therefore he didn't hurt anyone, but himfuckinself...

https://www.franceinter.fr/justice/un-at...s-la-jambe

(But actually, later on the police discovered that this Algerian criminal had indeed killed someone, a few days before, a young female jogger, pretty Aurelie Chatelain, RIP)

Post: #543

(07-18-2016 01:33 PM)Enigma Wrote:  

(07-18-2016 11:10 AM)911 Wrote:  -in France, a total of seven terrorists (Charlie, Bataclan, Nice) who have killed 200-300 people, and a few more who might go off in years to come,

I know you said you're done with the debate, but I can't help but point out for the other people reading that this is again not even close to being true.

There were 9 terrorists involved in the November 15th attacks alone -- and they hit 6 different locations.

There were 3 for the Januray 15th attacks and they hit 4 different locations and were on the run for days.

There was the Nice attack.

There was the terrorist that stabbed the police officer and his wife, the one who beheaded his boss, the one who shot 4 people on a train before being subdued by American soldiers, the man who rammed his car into French soldiers, the man who ended his own shooting spree when he accidentally shot himself in the leg.

That's 10 attacks, 18 locations, 20 terrorists, 220+ dead, hundreds more seriously injured -- all within 18 months. And that's with 6 of the 10 attacks failing and at least 1 other major attack being stopped beforehand.

Like I said, the situation there is out of control and shows no signs of slowing down.

I stand corrected then, 20 terrorists, not 7. I was correct about the number of victims though.

Now as far as dubious figures, do you really believe that the number of tourists killed in Brazil annually is "2 or 3"?

Sixty thousand homicides last year, millions of visitors, but only 2 or 3 of those sixty thousand killed are visitors?!? (Who is the patron saint of tourists in Brazil? I will pray to him tonight.)

That's pretty much where the debate ends AFAIC. When the basic premises of that debate are totally unreasonable and the debate becomes circular, it is time to move on.

Post: #544

(07-18-2016 02:15 PM)911 Wrote:  it is time to move on.

Right. And stop to this underlying French bashing. Freedom Fries are so 2003.

Post: #545

(07-18-2016 01:22 PM)Vronski Wrote:  

(07-18-2016 01:04 PM)AneroidOcean Wrote:  It'd be simpler to just admit you thought you had tourist death statistics that backed up your conclusion. Everyone makes mistakes, those who are man enough to admit them instead of emotional/rage-quitting get a lot more respect around here.

Once more, we got your point. Paris is the most dangerous place on the planet.

As you seem so scared for your life, FYI, about 1 man in 7 will be diagnosed with prostate cancer during his lifetime. Now compare that to the 1 in 4 200 000 chance of dying in France from a terrorist attack.

BTW if you're really scared about going to France, you should play the Lotterie, there's a great 1 in 1 000 000 chances to win.

My emphasis above.

I've made 3 posts in this thread (not including this one). My first post was a comment related to one of the videos of the victims posted, my second was a Trump commentary video, and the third was the one you quoted. I haven't been posting on this topic. Perhaps you should get your facts straight and also do some research on logical fallacies as you're using a strawman to argue against...I don't know what frankly.

Post: #546

Post: #547

(07-18-2016 02:18 PM)Vronski Wrote:  

(07-18-2016 02:15 PM)911 Wrote:  it is time to move on.

Right. And stop this underlying French bashing. Freedom Fries are so 2003.

France is a fine country, I will not let those muslim terrorists stop me from visiting. Not just because they are evil bastards, but also because the risks are still extremely low.

Post: #548

(07-18-2016 02:18 PM)Vronski Wrote:  

(07-18-2016 02:15 PM)911 Wrote:  it is time to move on.

Right. And stop this underlying French bashing. Freedom Fries are so 2003.

Quoting statistics = "bashing"

Post: #549

(07-18-2016 02:57 PM)Enigma Wrote:  Quoting statistics = "bashing"

Once again. There has been some 400 deaths (including many tourists) in Indonesia since 15 years fom jihadist attacks. Now check the Jakarta threads on this forum and tell me if the happy guys who have been there or go there on a regular basis did not or don't have a good time in Jakarta (and are scared of bombings). Yeah, when you focus about France, it's French bashing.

Post: #550

(07-18-2016 03:13 PM)Vronski Wrote:  

(07-18-2016 02:57 PM)Enigma Wrote:  Quoting statistics = "bashing"

Once again. There has been some 400 deaths (including many tourists) in Indonesia since 15 years fom jihadist attacks. Now check the Jakarta threads on this forum and tell me if the happy guys who have been there or go there on a regular basis did not or don't have a good time in Jakarta (and are scared of bombings). Yeah, when you focus about France, it's French bashing.

This thread is about a terrorist attack in France. That's why we're talking about French terrorist attacks.