Post: #451

Question...why don't they allow slamming in BJJ? Wrestlers are tough as fuck, and it seems like allowing slamming would toughen up BJJ a bit.

I'm just 8 months into BJJ and am fascinated with it...but I'm honest about it vs other forms of fighting (how could you not be).

I would guess slamming would change the sport a bit, and it would make it more dangerous for older guys (more BJJ older guys than older greco roman or catch wrestlers).

Post: #452

TK, this is obviously a situation that demands your specialized knowledge.

Would you submit arm-bar the attackers or do you think using judo throwing techniques to leverage their weight against them would be the better road to go down?



Hopeful you can break this down in black and white for me, because as a resident in China, being attacked by a mob of nationalistic pandas (such as these) is a daily possibility and one of my greatest fears.

Post: #453

(09-18-2017 03:03 PM)heavy Wrote:  Question...why don't they allow slamming in BJJ? Wrestlers are tough as fuck, and it seems like allowing slamming would toughen up BJJ a bit.

I'm just 8 months into BJJ and am fascinated with it...but I'm honest about it vs other forms of fighting (how could you not be).

I would guess slamming would change the sport a bit, and it would make it more dangerous for older guys (more BJJ older guys than older greco roman or catch wrestlers).

Once upon a time. In a different age. You could slam, rabbit punch, or even open palm strike someone in a BJJ tournament. The Gracies like Rickson and Royce used to rack up wins in tournaments like that. All this stuff was called Submission Fighting.

Dan Severn, Ken Shamrock, and Randy Couture used to do stuff like this. Gene LeBell lineage students come to mind.

This was back in the days of Shooto, Vale Tudo, and Pancrase style events.

Those days are long gone. Eventually catch wrestling will likely die out in the US at least.

Alot of that has to come from the Gracies and the Machados taking the Judo and other wrestling bits out of the teaching. Another thing is that the Shooto and Pancrase style stuff died out over UFC. UFC is full on hitting, so if guys wanted to do that, do it in the cage. Now it is completely soft because virtually no one even does the Judo that used to exist in the rulesets. Only leg trips still exist in the GJJ movesets. They do single and double leg takedown, but no one slams, they just take you down lightly so that they can work in a submission.

If you think about it, a slam is an impact and that is not the mission or the purpose of BJJ learning.

Post: #454

(09-19-2017 01:47 AM)Suits Wrote:  TK, this is obviously a situation that demands your specialized knowledge.

Would you submit arm-bar the attackers or do you think using judo throwing techniques to leverage their weight against them would be the better road to go down?



Hopeful you can break this down in black and white for me, because as a resident in China, being attacked by a mob of nationalistic pandas (such as these) is a daily possibility and one of my greatest fears.

In China, only those licensed Panda handlers are allowed to touch them by law. Notice that they just gently pull them off but never do they make a correction by hitting them? Anyone without a license to handle them, touching one, risks jail/prison. A foreigner would be deported after jail time, if ever released. They only live in a special zone in Sichuan. You are not getting anywhere near them, especially as a foreigner. They keep alot of poachers out, which is impressive, considering how atrocious poaching is in China. Most panda related goods I see are Panda poop tea selling for thousands of dollars. Those people collecting that likely are too afraid to actually harm one while trying to harvest that.

Pandas, as well as Red Pandas, are considered national treasures and poaching can get you the death penalty. If you punched one, I'm pretty sure you might qualify for that in Chinese legal logic. They might actually have to put you down just to quell the public anger if word got out on Weibo.

Your only option is to run. Lucky for you they are clumsy as fuck and pretty dopey as an animal. You would have to likely engage them for rough play.

Post: #455

(09-18-2017 03:03 PM)heavy Wrote:  Question...why don't they allow slamming in BJJ? Wrestlers are tough as fuck, and it seems like allowing slamming would toughen up BJJ a bit.

I'm just 8 months into BJJ and am fascinated with it...but I'm honest about it vs other forms of fighting (how could you not be).

I would guess slamming would change the sport a bit, and it would make it more dangerous for older guys (more BJJ older guys than older greco roman or catch wrestlers).

Too risky for the spine and brain.





Think of how many guys would get paralyzed or break their necks. No coach wants that liability in their gym.

Although I'd like to see open hand slapping in sparring - at least once in a while - to keep positions real. Like Kai said, some old timers I train with say it used to be standard practice in their schools back in the 90's.

Post: #456

I like rolling with the MMA guys at my gym because they always keep in mind striking. It's only an awareness and faux strikes, but it definitely keeps the actuality of fighting in mind.

That said, I'm ok with no striking or slams in BJJ. At my age, it would change the sport to something I'd be less inclined to pour myself into.

Post: #457

Slams used to give dudes stingers and shit like that back in the day at the worst case. Football players and wrestlers still get those more than we do. If anything it made your neck, traps, and shoulders alot tougher just like playing football. MMA gyms that also do alot of BJJ, tend to be no gi, and they teach good habits of shadow ground n pound and striking when doing light rolling or walkthroughs.

Slams in BJJ are actually better for the self defense aspect of it. No one blue belt or higher is going to get knocked out from being slammed. Rampage Jackson never knocked out someone like Nog or a Gracie with a slam. BJJ guys tuck their chins in alot and our backs absorb the impact. Most of us have very strong backs in general.

So in a self defense scenario, if you are on the street, slamming an attacker on the ground can be a highly effective way to end a fight because your average Joe Blow on the street is not going to defend that slam nor know how to do that. They will be unconscious and the threat will end immediately. Conversely, you need to be justified in using that force where you live because a slam on the head could equal a coma, which more often than not, leads to the plug being pulled. You don't want to go from not being charged with anything for a fight at a party or bar, to getting charged with manslaughter a week later, because dude's family cannot afford to keep him on life support that long.

Be very careful with slams. Those are the most deadly moves in all forms of grappling aside from chokes. I would rank chokes number 1 and slams number 2.

Post: #458

(09-19-2017 02:02 PM)Ringo Wrote:  

(09-18-2017 03:03 PM)heavy Wrote:  Question...why don't they allow slamming in BJJ? Wrestlers are tough as fuck, and it seems like allowing slamming would toughen up BJJ a bit.

I'm just 8 months into BJJ and am fascinated with it...but I'm honest about it vs other forms of fighting (how could you not be).

I would guess slamming would change the sport a bit, and it would make it more dangerous for older guys (more BJJ older guys than older greco roman or catch wrestlers).

Too risky for the spine and brain.


Think of how many guys would get paralyzed or break their necks. No coach wants that liability in their gym.

Although I'd like to see open hand slapping in sparring - at least once in a while - to keep positions real. Like Kai said, some old timers I train with say it used to be standard practice in their schools back in the 90's.

Shit we used to slap, punch ribs and the body, and cross-face each other all the time while rolling. In some way that made you really fucking good at nailing a submission because otherwise the resistance is not strong at all.

Post: #459

^

I love that OG shit.

(09-19-2017 04:11 PM)TravelerKai Wrote:  No one blue belt or higher is going to get knocked out from being slammed. Rampage Jackson never knocked out someone like Nog or a Gracie with a slam. BJJ guys tuck their chins in alot and our backs absorb the impact. Most of us have very strong backs in general.

When Rampage slammed Arona, Arona was already 3x ADCC champ, 13-0 without ever having been scored a point on. He was not a Gracie or Nog but he was certainly top level, strong, and roided up.

No back/cervical spine/neck is strong enough to defend a full force slam.

You're right, the floor slam it's a great tool for self-defense although I don't think it's a position you'd find yourself in often (with the attacker clinching up or holding on to you, that is). Wall slams are more common - and easier - but can still be very effective.

Post: #460

I imagine the slam is also unsportsmanlike at some level since an MMA guy who isn't good at grappling but is super strong could conceivably slam guys all day as a way of escaping without actually having defended the grapple. Also, hurting your bros brain and neck isn't cool either.

Post: #461

(09-20-2017 09:07 AM)Ringo Wrote:  ^

I love that OG shit.

(09-19-2017 04:11 PM)TravelerKai Wrote:  No one blue belt or higher is going to get knocked out from being slammed. Rampage Jackson never knocked out someone like Nog or a Gracie with a slam. BJJ guys tuck their chins in alot and our backs absorb the impact. Most of us have very strong backs in general.

When Rampage slammed Arona, Arona was already 3x ADCC champ, 13-0 without ever having been scored a point on. He was not a Gracie or Nog but he was certainly top level, strong, and roided up.

No back/cervical spine/neck is strong enough to defend a full force slam.

You're right, the floor slam it's a great tool for self-defense although I don't think it's a position you'd find yourself in often (with the attacker clinching up or holding on to you, that is). Wall slams are more common - and easier - but can still be very effective.

Ok here is the difference. Ricardo was trying to put Rampage in a leg triangle. That is a HIGH SLAM (Powerbomb in Pro Wrestling). Not some regular slam. Anytime you go for a triangle, the counter or the risk is that you will be slammed. If someone lifts you while doing a triangle, you have no choice but to let it go, push off his shoulders with both hands, so that you can raise your head higher so that when the slam occurs, you will land on your mid/lower back or butt instead. If you do fast enough, you can even land on your feet.

Alternatively I have survived too many slams to count, by choking the guy in the air with a triangle. If applied right, they will drop down and tap. Some guys (wrestlers usually) will still slam you, but that makes the triangle even deeper and tighter and they will pass out immediately. I've done that to several wrestlers before, but you have to have it at least 80% applied before they lift you. If you do not, you better let it go quickly otherwise you will get Rampaged.

Arona is legit on BJJ acumen no doubt, but it looks like he was just too exhausted to do the escape in that fight. If that was Nog and he was too tired perhaps he would not have been able to escape too. Ricardo is also smaller than Nog is. Rampage was and still is bigger just in general. When your opponent outweighs you by a good bit, slam risk is even more dangerous.

Post: #462

(09-20-2017 11:19 AM)Fortis Wrote:  I imagine the slam is also unsportsmanlike at some level since an MMA guy who isn't good at grappling but is super strong could conceivably slam guys all day as a way of escaping without actually having defended the grapple. Also, hurting your bros brain and neck isn't cool either.

HA! You should never get into MMA training, let alone a cage, with that mindset.

Post: #463

First BJJ competition coming up within two weeks. I've been spending a lot of mat time on the mat and took a private lesson yesterday.

Blew through my learning curve the last week or so, trying to keep it going until tourney. It's amazing the drive and focus generated by an upcoming competition.

This winter will be huge for me, as I'll have extra time to just be at the gym. Wish I'd have started this in my 20s.

Post: #464

good luck. do your best to get the initial advantage, that'll make your road to victory so much easier due to how they score those events.

Post: #465

Heavy, are you doing an IBJJF tournament? If your gym has a competition culture you should be good, but in any case read the rules carefully, you don't want to be DQ'ed for stupid reasons, like using banned subs, reaping the knee, etc.

Post: #466

(10-09-2017 03:49 PM)Ringo Wrote:  Heavy, are you doing an IBJJF tournament? If your gym has a competition culture you should be good, but in any case read the rules carefully, you don't want to be DQ'ed for stupid reasons, like using banned subs, reaping the knee, etc.

Besides the usual obvious (no slamming, striking, SMJ, etc)...only straight foot locks are allowed...no knee bars, no toe hold ankle locks, no wrist calf or bicep locks, no heel hooks or bent knee.

I've only been to this gym, so I can't say whether it has a 'competition culture', but yes, we're encouraged to do tournaments.

I haven't done many of the ankle and knee stuff, but others in my gym have trained in it, so I should be ok since I've had to defend it.

Post: #467

Anyone has some tips on fast recovery from combat sport injuries? Contusion, sore wrists, bruised fingers, etc.?

The other day in historical fencing I took a full thrust from a steel longsword to my upper right pecs, still hurting now every time I breath in. Took several hits on the fingers too, those babies got all bruised and swollen but nothing too serious.

Went to an Aikido seminar the day after (should have rested...), the theme of the day was Nikio... so by the time I'm done I cant feel my wrist anymore.

Of course there goes training for at least a week, as well as any home exercise that involves upper pec.

I iced my fingers as soon as they got hit, but been 5 days now and it still hurts when I have to apply pressure (say opening a Coke can) and it's hard to maintain a firm grip on my weapons.

For other sore I apply anti-inflamtion gel but it's not healing fast enough.

I'm eating almost twice my usual diet and sleeping better though.

Post: #468

(10-11-2017 05:16 AM)Dalaran1991 Wrote:  Anyone has some tips on fast recovery from combat sport injuries? Contusion, sore wrists, bruised fingers, etc.?

The other day in historical fencing I took a full thrust from a steel longsword to my upper right pecs, still hurting now every time I breath in. Took several hits on the fingers too, those babies got all bruised and swollen but nothing too serious.

Went to an Aikido seminar the day after (should have rested...), the theme of the day was Nikio... so by the time I'm done I cant feel my wrist anymore.

Of course there goes training for at least a week, as well as any home exercise that involves upper pec.

I iced my fingers as soon as they got hit, but been 5 days now and it still hurts when I have to apply pressure (say opening a Coke can) and it's hard to maintain a firm grip on my weapons.

For other sore I apply anti-inflamtion gel but it's not healing fast enough.

I'm eating almost twice my usual diet and sleeping better though.

Honestly soft tissue injuries are an entire thread of their own.

You got alot going on here:

1. You need to rest until recovered. Money is not on the line here, so there is no reason whatsoever to train injured.

2. Your body will never heal while in pain or full of inflammation.

3. Follow the rule of thumb for severe tissue injuries: Ice (15-20mins ~4 times daily), Anti-Inflammatory pills (800mg-1000mg) like Advil. Elevation and rest.

4. Get xrays to make sure you do not have internal damage not noticeable.

5. Bone contusions/Bone bruises and similar are serious enough to take you out of action 4-8 weeks.

For the more light-moderate soreness, you can use Chinese stuff.

1. Dit da jow
2. Feng you jing (put some drops on your skin and rub it in) (it's a green liquid and smells strong)
3. Ling Zhi (ganoderma mushroom) buy the mushroom sliced at the traditional medicine store. You are Vietnamese, you know what I am talking about. You guys have the same store. Boil some water and put a few slices in and let it steep a little and sip it all. This is a powerful anti-inflammatory that won't fuck up your stomach like too much Advil can.
4. Tiger Balm
5. Chinese medicine stick on pads (I don't know the mandarin for that, they will know what you are talking about)

Post: #469

(10-11-2017 02:34 PM)TravelerKai Wrote:  Honestly soft tissue injuries are an entire thread of their own.

You got alot going on here:

1. You need to rest until recovered. Money is not on the line here, so there is no reason whatsoever to train injured.

2. Your body will never heal while in pain or full of inflammation.

3. Follow the rule of thumb for severe tissue injuries: Ice (15-20mins ~4 times daily), Anti-Inflammatory pills (800mg-1000mg) like Advil. Elevation and rest.

4. Get xrays to make sure you do not have internal damage not noticeable.

5. Bone contusions/Bone bruises and similar are serious enough to take you out of action 4-8 weeks.

For the more light-moderate soreness, you can use Chinese stuff.

1. Dit da jow
2. Feng you jing (put some drops on your skin and rub it in) (it's a green liquid and smells strong)
3. Ling Zhi (ganoderma mushroom) buy the mushroom sliced at the traditional medicine store. You are Vietnamese, you know what I am talking about. You guys have the same store. Boil some water and put a few slices in and let it steep a little and sip it all. This is a powerful anti-inflammatory that won't fuck up your stomach like too much Advil can.
4. Tiger Balm
5. Chinese medicine stick on pads (I don't know the mandarin for that, they will know what you are talking about)

Wow thanks a lot Sensei. A lot of the basics you stated there are not known to me. I remember training Aikido with lots of SJM back when I was a student and I never get sore or anything. Even dislocated my shoulder once and came back in just a week. Guess I'm not 22 anymore...

My friend who's a post-doc in med also suggested me to get X-ray. I dismissed it as being the standard protocol to enrich the industry, but now that you said it I'm seeing a sport doctor tomorrow.

Funny how you mentioned Chinese stuff, I never took them seriously. I got all of the 4/5 items in your list except the 1st one. You believe this shit works for real?

The Linh Chi mushroom stuff is my childhood nightmare. My mom made me drink that shit whenever I got real sick when I was young. Dont know what she mixed it with but shit taste more bitter than your ex's words

Post: #470

(10-12-2017 03:43 AM)Dalaran1991 Wrote:  

(10-11-2017 02:34 PM)TravelerKai Wrote:  Honestly soft tissue injuries are an entire thread of their own.

You got alot going on here:

1. You need to rest until recovered. Money is not on the line here, so there is no reason whatsoever to train injured.

2. Your body will never heal while in pain or full of inflammation.

3. Follow the rule of thumb for severe tissue injuries: Ice (15-20mins ~4 times daily), Anti-Inflammatory pills (800mg-1000mg) like Advil. Elevation and rest.

4. Get xrays to make sure you do not have internal damage not noticeable.

5. Bone contusions/Bone bruises and similar are serious enough to take you out of action 4-8 weeks.

For the more light-moderate soreness, you can use Chinese stuff.

1. Dit da jow
2. Feng you jing (put some drops on your skin and rub it in) (it's a green liquid and smells strong)
3. Ling Zhi (ganoderma mushroom) buy the mushroom sliced at the traditional medicine store. You are Vietnamese, you know what I am talking about. You guys have the same store. Boil some water and put a few slices in and let it steep a little and sip it all. This is a powerful anti-inflammatory that won't fuck up your stomach like too much Advil can.
4. Tiger Balm
5. Chinese medicine stick on pads (I don't know the mandarin for that, they will know what you are talking about)

Wow thanks a lot Sensei. A lot of the basics you stated there are not known to me. I remember training Aikido with lots of SJM back when I was a student and I never get sore or anything. Even dislocated my shoulder once and came back in just a week. Guess I'm not 22 anymore...

My friend who's a post-doc in med also suggested me to get X-ray. I dismissed it as being the standard protocol to enrich the industry, but now that you said it I'm seeing a sport doctor tomorrow.

Funny how you mentioned Chinese stuff, I never took them seriously. I got all of the 4/5 items in your list except the 1st one. You believe this shit works for real?

The Linh Chi mushroom stuff is my childhood nightmare. My mom made me drink that shit whenever I got real sick when I was young. Dont know what she mixed it with but shit taste more bitter than your ex's words

Dit da jow is what we would put on our fists so they would heal when we were doing iron fist and palm conditioning. Muay Thai guys use it too on their shins after conditioning or the Thai version that is similar in formula.

All this stuff works. Western scientists cannot figure out how it works and some have given it light credit but it does work well, especially if you get the good stuff from a legit store and not some watered down Western version.

If it tastes too bitter toss in some ginseng, if you can afford it. Those two will heal your adrenal glands, so beware if you start getting better adrenaline rushes that wash from head to toe.

Post: #471

(10-12-2017 08:48 PM)TravelerKai Wrote:  All this stuff works. Western scientists cannot figure out how it works and some have given it light credit but it does work well, especially if you get the good stuff from a legit store and not some watered down Western version.

If it tastes too bitter toss in some ginseng, if you can afford it. Those two will heal your adrenal glands, so beware if you start getting better adrenaline rushes that wash from head to toe.

Kai, this is relevant to my interests...could you please do a break down of supplements for overall energy levels, focus, etc., especially to sustain the endocrine system? Perhaps overall Chinese supplements that are readily available and conveniently packaged (capsules etc.) in the west?

Post: #472

KOALA FIGHT!

Post: #473

(09-18-2017 03:03 PM)heavy Wrote:  Question...why don't they allow slamming in BJJ? Wrestlers are tough as fuck, and it seems like allowing slamming would toughen up BJJ a bit.

I'm just 8 months into BJJ and am fascinated with it...but I'm honest about it vs other forms of fighting (how could you not be).

I would guess slamming would change the sport a bit, and it would make it more dangerous for older guys (more BJJ older guys than older greco roman or catch wrestlers).

Because of this:





When I trained bjj was common that guys with 65kg would spar with guys with 110kg. Also if slams where legal, there would made no sense in having the "absolute" category in championships, since all the big guys would slam and ragdoll the small ones.

I remember a couple years ago, a boy was slammed in a tournament (a move against the rules) and became tetraplegic. I guess most of the guys would not use the closed guard (which is the basis of modern sport bjj) if it was legal.

Post: #474

That's a bit of a poor example and reason, guys should know that holding a shitty attempt at a triangle is stupid and that they have other tools for preventing themselves getting picked up that way.

Even in wrestling where you can do some hard take downs there are rules to follow when doing so, an example being suplexes being forbidden.

Post: #475

(10-09-2017 01:36 PM)heavy Wrote:  First BJJ competition coming up within two weeks. I've been spending a lot of mat time on the mat and took a private lesson yesterday.

Blew through my learning curve the last week or so, trying to keep it going until tourney. It's amazing the drive and focus generated by an upcoming competition.

This winter will be huge for me, as I'll have extra time to just be at the gym. Wish I'd have started this in my 20s.

Won Lost Won Lost (it was double elimination tournament).

I was at the top age of my bracket...middle aged dude going against kids. My last loss was to an 18 year old kid for 3rd place, and I had zero energy.

I had my first ever adrenaline dump after the first match. I was basically was in shock after it, laying in a chair, only wanting to sleep. I've never experienced it to that level.

During the second match, I was going against the guy who ended up winning. I almost landed a takedown on him where we rolled into the scorers table instead. If I'd have gotten the takedown, it may have turned out differently...he had tight game though, respect.

Takeaways:

1. Doing a tournament focused me and made me way better just leading up to it. I'm far better than I was only 3 weeks ago...even than 2 weeks ago.

2. It's exhausting. The only thing I can relate it to is running long distance. I ran a decent mile race in high school (under 5 min), and that's a similar feeling. I purposefully waited until the last minute to sign up and was the only one from my gym who entered. As a gym, normally we push conditioning more leading up to tournaments.

3. My gym (culture, owner, coaches and members) is great. I would say 2/3 of the BJJ I watched looked sloppier and looser than what we strive for in my gym.

4. I'd never cut weight before, had no idea what I was doing, and was a little outta wack all day from it. Now I know why guys pay so much attention to cutting and replenishing before competition.