Post: #1

Ive always assumed I would have the typical life....wife, kids, white picket fence.

That hasn't happened and as I get older...I'm starting to question whether I really want kids.

Of course it must be rewarding. But best case scenario, If I met some great girl (insert laughter here), I could easily be 50 with 2 young kids. Do I really want that?

So...as rewarding as it is to be a father..given the work involved in raising children, is there an age after which a man should give serious pause to starting a family??

Of course, this is a personal question. Just wondering the take from those who already have kids.

Thanks

Post: #2

Kaizen

Your handle means "improvement". Kids can do that, in a way (they also throw your life to a completely new and sometimes harsh direction).
You may not feel it yet, but you might have the urge to leave a legacy. Legacy can be also genetic.

I'm 42 with 2 kids. Divorced.
Love my kids and work hard to educate them.

As per age, it depends:
1. Rollo suggests that one should not marry before the age of 30. The reason being that by that time you have a good understanding of females and your long term value is starting to grow.
Solid advice, however:
2. Until 100 years ago people would be married in their teens.

So, back to your question: "Is there an age after which a man should give serious pause to starting a family?"
Sorry to redirect it, but as you stated, it is a "personal question".
It means that it is up to you to find out.

However, DO NOT MARRY YOUNG unless it is an overwhelmingly different situation.

Post: #3

I've been wondering the same myself. I've never been married, but had a child in my 20's. They are a lot of joy, but also require a LOT of work and ENERGY. Even if you have a young wife who is happy to stay home and raise them they will sap here of her energy too. She may be good at it and love it, she may not. She won't even know until she's in the thick of it.

I'm probably the same age as you and I'm keeping my options open in case I happen to find a unicorn but she really, really wants kids. Then I might do it, otherwise I don't think I will be having any and that goes for getting married also.

Post: #4

(03-07-2016 05:46 AM)Kaizen Wrote:  Ive always assumed I would have the typical life....wife, kids, white picket fence.

That hasn't happened and as I get older...I'm starting to question whether I really want kids.

Of course it must be rewarding. But best case scenario, If I met some great girl (insert laughter here), I could easily be 50 with 2 young kids. Do I really want that?

So...as rewarding as it is to be a father..given the work involved in raising children, is there an age after which a man should give serious pause to starting a family??

Of course, this is a personal question. Just wondering the take from those who already have kids.

Thanks

I was where you are some years ago. I have two boys now, 4 and 9 months old. I am 49 and I feel I won't have more children unless my income rises dramatically.

Looking back to my life I am sorry to leave it to so late in life to have children. I feel I wasted time on things that seemed cool at the time and gave me pleasure but now don't seem so valuable anymore.

It's demanding (but not difficult) to be a father. It is the marriage that is difficult Fitness and stamina help a lot.

I would advise you to go for it. Nothing compares to the pleasure of being a father (I never tried hard drugs, so I can't compare).

Now go and find a woman, they do most of the work anyway. Don't be too demanding, remember that we humans are foolish and frail.

Post: #5

Kaizen, I think I met you once.

I'm 37 with 3 kids (6, 3 and 1 year old) and a somewhat demanding job. I didn't find the red pill until after marriage and 1 kid. Had I done so earlier in life, marriage may have been out of the question altogether.

Same with kids as I'm not a kid kind of guy. Yet, I love my kids. I agree with the above poster that it's moderately demanding. It's also tough to keep tabs on your marriage with multiple kids. It's just not easy to manage all the major components of life.

All this being said, I think your question was about reward. I can attest that their love is one of the most rewarding components or my life. The respect that I get from them is more than anyone has given me. The joy that I see in their face when I get home is the most I have ever seen. We live in a world full of material desires and focus on wealth. I don't see any of that in them and their love. It's pure and innocent. To have that is to me, having something more precious than all the wealth in the world.

This weekend, my six year old daughter put on her little chefs outfit, cracked eggs for me and helped me cook them. She also through the day, got snacks for her siblings and kept her room clean as well as the house tidy. All she wants in return is for me to play with her. She's the result of good parenting mostly from her mother and a little from me.

I just wish I could be a better father and reward her by taking her out more and doing fun stuff. In that sense I think I'm a substandard father. With work, marriage and even the forum, it becomes difficult. However, if there is anything worth getting better at, it's this. If you can't tell, my reason for this is the unconditional love I get in return. I'm not sure I have ever had or will have that from any other human beings.

The forum has an interesting take on marriage and kids. On one end we value the traditional family and having a feminine wife and kids. Yet, practically, we don't want to get tied down and want to bang as many young women as possible. I think some veteran players are realizing they can't have both. I think we also artificially create a reality of denial that girls with traditional values don't exist. I think this happens when you immerse yourself in the forum and red pill to the extreme.

Post: #6

I'd put 50 as the cut-off age (I am 38, with children age 13, 8, and 5). As others said above, children are demanding, but not difficult. I agree that maintaining my marriage with my kids' mother is far and away more demanding--both in terms of time/money, as well as emotional capital. I do feel I owe it to my children to keep up the relationship.

I am a "pig," in that I crave sexual variety without being willing to give up my marriage. I have had, and continue to pursue, sexual relationships with women outside my marriage. Judge accordingly.

Post: #7

To play the devil's advocate, why not consider the idea of having kids at a very advanced age, like 55+? That way when you are young, full of vigor, and fully enjoying life, you are not bothered by annoying arselings. Then when you become a geezer and the fast life loses it luster because you're just too damn old, you can devote the tail end of your life to kids and "legacy" instead of tending the petunias like most gomers.

Post: #8

(03-07-2016 11:36 AM)Fast Eddie Wrote:  To play the devil's advocate, why not consider the idea of having kids at a very advanced age, like 55+? That way when you are young, full of vigor, and fully enjoying life, you are not bothered by annoying arselings. Then when you become a geezer and the fast life loses it luster because you're just too damn old, you can devote the tail end of your life to kids and "legacy" instead of tending the petunias like most gomers.

Because instead of enjoying your golden years when you've gotten everything figured out and want to leisurely enjoy spending your nestegg with travel and enjoying the finer things in life, you're changing diapers and getting up at 3 o-clock in the morning to feed the baby. If you're going to have small children after the age of 55, are you sure you're going to be able to take them skiing or kick the ball or shoot hoops with them? Also, when you take your kids to their friends' birthday parties, you'll be 30 years older than the other parents there, although it could be argued that that's not necessarily a negative thing.

Last night my young daughter helped me put together her new desk for her room. She volunteered to participate and then did her best to put parts of it together without my help. Only when she couldn't do something after several tries did she ask for my help. Very endearing experience.

However, just 15 minutes later she, my other daughter, and my wife were engaged in a screaming hen fight over some trivial matter. I could only shake my head and wonder how I ever got myself into this situation.

Both positive and negative experiences associated with fatherhood.

Post: #9

(03-07-2016 11:49 AM)C-Note Wrote:  Because instead of enjoying your golden years when you've gotten everything figured out and want to leisurely enjoy spending your nestegg with travel and enjoying the finer things in life, you're changing diapers and getting up at 3 o-clock in the morning to feed the baby. If you're going to have small children after the age of 55, are you sure you're going to be able to take them skiing or kick the ball or shoot hoops with them? Also, when you take your kids to their friends' birthday parties, you'll be 30 years older than the other parents there, although it could be argued that that's not necessarily a negative thing.

Last night my young daughter helped me put together her new desk for her room. She volunteered to participate and then did her best to put parts of it together without my help. Only when she couldn't do something after several tries did she ask for my help. Very endearing experience.

However, just 15 minutes later she, my other daughter, and my wife were engaged in a screaming hen fight over some trivial matter. I could only shake my head and wonder how I ever got myself into this situation.

Both positive and negative experiences associated with fatherhood.

The term "golden years" is a hilarious misnomer. If you're going to sacrifice 18-20 years of your life raising children, those "golden years" are the best years to sacrifice because they suck ass regardless so it's not as big of an opportunity cost as tying yourself down during the prime of your life.

Or let's put it this way: would you rather spend 20 years in prison starting at 30 or starting at 50 years old? I think most people would choose the latter, because those younger years are just more valuable.

Post: #10

(03-07-2016 11:58 AM)Fast Eddie Wrote:  

(03-07-2016 11:49 AM)C-Note Wrote:  Because instead of enjoying your golden years when you've gotten everything figured out and want to leisurely enjoy spending your nestegg with travel and enjoying the finer things in life, you're changing diapers and getting up at 3 o-clock in the morning to feed the baby. If you're going to have small children after the age of 55, are you sure you're going to be able to take them skiing or kick the ball or shoot hoops with them? Also, when you take your kids to their friends' birthday parties, you'll be 30 years older than the other parents there, although it could be argued that that's not necessarily a negative thing.

Last night my young daughter helped me put together her new desk for her room. She volunteered to participate and then did her best to put parts of it together without my help. Only when she couldn't do something after several tries did she ask for my help. Very endearing experience.

However, just 15 minutes later she, my other daughter, and my wife were engaged in a screaming hen fight over some trivial matter. I could only shake my head and wonder how I ever got myself into this situation.

Both positive and negative experiences associated with fatherhood.

The term "golden years" is a hilarious misnomer. If you're going to sacrifice 18-20 years of your life raising children, those "golden years" are the best years to sacrifice because they suck ass regardless so it's not as big of an opportunity cost as tying yourself down during the prime of your life.

Or let's put it this way: would you rather spend 20 years in prison starting at 30 or starting at 50 years old? I think most people would choose the latter, because those younger years are just more valuable.

The problem with having kids at such an older age is that raising them is physically and emotionally very demanding and the older you get, the less tolerance you will have for it. Chasing around a two year old at age 55 is not something I'd recommend to anyone. I'm almost 48 and I have a kid in college, another one going this year and twins starting high school. I could not imagine getting up for 3 am feedings, changing diapers and all the other stuff that goes with younger children. I do know a few guys my age that do have small children and they're always exhausted.

I think its much easier to do the 20 years or so starting in your 30s and being done in your 50s. I know for me , I'm really excited about being able to hang out with my adult children (especially now that I'm getting divorced). A big thing too is that with adult kids, I'm more of a mentor now than a day to day parent which is much easier The day to day parenting is truly rewarding when you get to see the fruits of your labor with your adult children. That's an experience which is way better at age 50 than age 70.

At any age though, being a parent is tough. Raising kids in today's messed up environment is a serious challenge. It. is. not. easy. If you add being a husband on top of that, you have yourself a long hard climb ( I won't even go in to how hard that shit is). While I certainly have no regrets and I love the fact that I have two great adult children and will have two more very soon, I know I could never go through it ever again. Thank god for vasectomies.

Post: #11

My opinion, based only on observations, is that a man needs to be experienced enough to have established himself financially and mentally so he can lead a family, but not so old that the next 18+ years of his health significantly degrades his ability to do so.

Assuming the man wants the best for his children and not necessarily himself, of course.

Post: #12

(03-07-2016 08:21 AM)Cobra Wrote:  I think we also artificially create a reality of denial that girls with traditional values don't exist. I think this happens when you immerse yourself in the forum and red pill to the extreme.

Thanks for the very insightful post, Cobra.

While I don't think girls with traditional values don't exist in the west, I think it is well-known that they are very rare, particularly in metropolitan areas where a higher standard of living, higher employment rate, and higher paying jobs are found. So, there is this paradox for aspiring fathers: finding a traditional wife and mother of your kids, but wanting to raise your children in a more affluent country and area. What kind of solutions are there to this problem? I'd personally want the root problems to go away (e.g. degenerate Western values, biased family court system) but obviously that takes a cultural overhaul that may not happen in our lifetime. I realize this is discussed ad nauseum in the forum with suggestions such as continuously gaming for the entire time, avoiding marriage, homeschooling, moving to the sticks, etc. but perhaps those that have successfully raised a family in Western society have something to add outside of these suggestions.

Post: #13

(03-07-2016 11:36 AM)Fast Eddie Wrote:  To play the devil's advocate, why not consider the idea of having kids at a very advanced age, like 55+? That way when you are young, full of vigor, and fully enjoying life, you are not bothered by annoying arselings. Then when you become a geezer and the fast life loses it luster because you're just too damn old, you can devote the tail end of your life to kids and "legacy" instead of tending the petunias like most gomers.

Rearing children is inherently a self-sacrifice, both money and time. Will you give your progeny deserve the best years of your life, or the worst? Which do you think will be better for their development and outcome? What is the point to having children if you do not raise them to be as strong as possible?

Post: #14

I know Kaizen, he has alot to offer.

I myself am close to that age you are talking about, I think about kids alot. I feel it is one of the few things in life I haven't experienced yet.

The toughest part is finding the right lady, I have had a few that came close but ultimately I wasn't at that place. I am now, although it has only been the last few years that I have actually given this any consideration.

Post: #15

(03-07-2016 08:52 PM)rudebwoy Wrote:  I know Kaizen, he has alot to offer.

I myself am close to that age you are talking about, I think about kids alot. I feel it is one of the few things in life I haven't experienced yet.

The toughest part is finding the right lady, I have had a few that came close but ultimately I wasn't at that place. I am now, although it has only been the last few years that I have actually given this any consideration.

Right there with you mate, in all aspects. It plays on my mind, too. I never considered myself truly mature and willing to take on the challenge of a family until I hit 30. To make it even harder, I have trouble seeing my future wife/mother of my babies as anything other than far younger and submissive to me.

Thank you, everyone else, for the wisdom and experience in this thread.

Post: #16

(03-07-2016 05:46 AM)Kaizen Wrote:  Ive always assumed I would have the typical life....wife, kids, white picket fence.

That hasn't happened and as I get older...I'm starting to question whether I really want kids.

Of course it must be rewarding. But best case scenario, If I met some great girl (insert laughter here), I could easily be 50 with 2 young kids. Do I really want that?

So...as rewarding as it is to be a father..given the work involved in raising children, is there an age after which a man should give serious pause to starting a family??

Of course, this is a personal question. Just wondering the take from those who already have kids.

Thanks

I would say a man should give serious pause to starting a family once he is in a position to say "I am happy and I know what I need to do to keep being happy" as well as be in a position where he can take care of more then just himself and do that easily. That way when a man has kids he can share happiness and a solid foundation for them instead of misery and frustration. No one can share what they themselves don't have to give. The fact is everything even having children and a family is infinitely easier when you are already happy and know how to keep it that way so happiness and security comes first before starting a family but that's just the direction I'm taking. I'll let you know how it turns out once I have some of my own.

Post: #17

I wouldn't recommend having kids at 55. It would be a major change of life when you're already set in your ways. If you had already had a child, even 20 years earlier, it wouldn't be such a bad thing, but a first child at 55 would be difficult to adapt to.

Then there's the other problem(s). Go read the obituaries in the newspaper. While we can all die at just about any time, for almost any reason, the fact is, as you age, your risk of sickness and death increases more and more with each passing day. A child doesn't ask to be born, and they owe parents very little. Parents OTOH choose to reproduce and therefore they have an obligation to be present for their children and in the best possible health they can be in. You would be collecting social security as your kid enters high school. Chances are, you'd be pushing up daisies before he finished college.

I guess it's up to each of us to decide when to make the cutoff. I don't have kids and I'll be 40 this year. I've got high blood pressure. All of the men on my mother's side had heart attacks between the ages of 45 and 55. And they all died from heart trouble. Having a heart attack while I've got school aged kids around the house isn't a good idea in my book.

Post: #18

I'm in my mid-20s and was blessed with a beautiful daughter (I prayed for a son or course) last year. I would not look back, it's been fucking amazing. The contentment I feel in my heart looking at my very own genes living right in front of me is amazing.

Maybe I'm odd, but neither me nor the missus finds parenting difficult in the slightest, it feels 120% natural and normal. We plan on having 7+ children in our mighty tribe, one of my sisters has six kids already and I was one of five children.

At the end of the day, if you don't breed you have failed your genetic line. Every ancestor of yours that has fucked, given birth and reared children is being shrugged off and their sacrifices ignored.

I could never NOT breed due to my egotistical belief that my genes are superior and that my parenting will be superior.

Post: #19

I get fed up with the whole anti family narrative you hear from the West. I suppose when you grow up watching sitcoms like Everybody loves Raymond' then the notion of being this beta slave becomes repulsive. However after meeting a fair few men who had envious careers, lifestyles while still maintaining a big family, I got sold to the idea.

I'm in the my early mid 20s and really want to have a family. Although I know that now I am not ready.

Post: #20

(03-07-2016 08:52 PM)rudebwoy Wrote:  I know Kaizen, he has alot to offer.

I myself am close to that age you are talking about, I think about kids alot. I feel it is one of the few things in life I haven't experienced yet.

The toughest part is finding the right lady, I have had a few that came close but ultimately I wasn't at that place. I am now, although it has only been the last few years that I have actually given this any consideration.

(03-08-2016 04:33 AM)Snowblind Wrote:  Right there with you mate, in all aspects. It plays on my mind, too. I never considered myself truly mature and willing to take on the challenge of a family until I hit 30. To make it even harder, I have trouble seeing my future wife/mother of my babies as anything other than far younger and submissive to me.

Thank you, everyone else, for the wisdom and experience in this thread.

I'm feeling exactly the same thing, more and more in fact. I'm actually getting scared that I'm not going to find the right woman before i'm too old.

Post: #21

GOt my lass pregnant but in the second week she quickly lost it.
Dont know if its true but been told its fairly normal.

HItting 30 this year,I ve had my fair share of wear&tear and traveling.
After years of laughing and ridiculing the notion,I suddenly find myself compelled to have kids.
Why not enjoy them while you are still vigorous and capable of withstanding the energy usage they will suppose?
If anything,throughout the existence of mankind until a decade or two ago,having kids was natural...

Post: #22

You can have kids, a wife/mother, and a great life as we understand it, i.e. banging other bitches. There is absolutely no reason that you can't. I've actually met a number of girls who would be suitable mothers and care about family, etc. I think I just happen to attract that type. Screen carefully, however. You need to meet family, etc.

The diaper/sleep thing is hard, but relatively speaking, very brief. An important consideration is whether the mother has family nearby to help with child care. This would be very important if you need to go to a "conference" in Japan, for example. ;D

Most great conquerors in history have had many many children. Nothing easy is worthwhile. Children are not easy, and require constant effort, which changes as they mature. I think it is necessary for there to be some kind of struggle in order to have happiness, and children are a part of that. When/if everything is easy, we become self-destructive.

Post: #23

Post: #24

I hesitated to post in this thread, because I don't want to discourage any man who is a member of this forum from having children. If you are a member of this forum, then you are a man seeking the truth who has the courage to risk being branded a thought criminal by the thought police, and those are exactly the kind of men we need to father children today to improve society so we can one day see an end to toxic feminism and its thought policing. Having said that, I have written about my adventures in fatherhood and family court...

http://ghost-tiger88.livejournal.com/713.html

/post-1237050...pid1237050

The advice I have to give after my travels is this... don't even think about starting a family until you have your finances in order. And I don't mean just for living expenses. One of the factors that enabled me to win legal custody of my daughter after domestic war broke out was: I had a war chest of cash for lawyer's fees. Lawyers don't extend credit. They want cash retainers UP FRONT. This is because most lawyers are crooks and crooks have very low levels of trust. Burglars have the best home security systems. Just for some context, I received one monthly legal bill in excess of $6,000 CAD at the height of my war, and I spent a grand total in excess of $20,000. So your war chest for potential lawyers' fees is an essential insurance policy for if and when your lovely baby mama goes moonbatshit crazy and decides to avail herself of the awesome power of the family court bias. The reason this is such a real risk today is simply due to the EXISTENCE of the bias. When a woman becomes aware of the bias (as my ex was KEENLY aware), she becomes like a person who suddenly noticed she's holding a gun in her hand. Sooner or later the temptation to raise it up and point it at you in a threatening manner is going to overpower her... because she is a woman... she has weak emotional control. So if your domestic situation is potentially volatile (like if, for example, your baby mama is a drop-dead gorgeous Haitian woman with 36DD breasts and an ego the size of Jupiter), the risk will be great of your woman giving in to temptation and deciding to try to "manage" you by lying to the authorities and recruiting them for help in "domesticating" you, which is precisely what happened to me.

But it might surprise you to learn that I still want more kids, just with a new woman (I have a restraining order against my ex). The next time around I will have the advantage of the knowledge I gained from my experience AS WELL as the knowledge I have gained from the manosphere, which has been priceless. F. Roger Devlin's analysis of the "4-year feral female cycle" was like a Rosetta stone to me when I was fighting my legal war, it's what drew me in to the manosphere. Return of Kings and this forum have also been very enlightening, and what I have learned is that it is important to be the leader in a relationship. Sure running dread game and using other PUA techniques constantly would be ONE strategy, but there are many ways to be a good leader to your woman. I think just simply being as strong a man as you can be is enough dread game for any relationship. She will always be worried about her competition if you are strong. If you notice, that's why as soon as you get into a new relationship, she starts trying to tie up your time with sedentary activities like watching mind-numbing sitcoms on the couch, and she starts feeding you massive amounts of junk food. She's trying to take a little of that alpha edge off you, because it frightens the shit out of her. Patrice O'Neal did a good bit about this.





The part I'm talking about begins at 2:44 in the clip above. Patrice talks about men being like sport fishermen, and women are the fish. Your LTR woman, who you have children with, is the fish that "jumped back on the boat." Lmfao. And then eventually she says something like, "So... we've been together for like, a year now so, why do you still have a boat?" THIS is what I'm getting at. This is where she comes in with the sitcoms and the fresh baked cookies. She's trying to scuttle your boat. But Patrice has further wisdom at 4:30: "Because if I lose my ability to catch a fish, then you not gon' find me sexy no more." Like Shakespeare likes to say... therein lies the rub. Patrice goes on... "So you gotta smell fish on me, so dat you know I can catch fish... so you can ACT RIGHT." That's it. Right there. The key is to make sure she ACTS RIGHT in the Patrice O'Neal sense of the expression. That's why "gaming ad infinitum" is a plausible strategy, albeit an exhausting one. A more efficient strategy is more elegant in its simplicity... just keep your boat. Keep hitting the gym, keep watching your diet, keep hustling like Trump and getting paid. She'll smell the fish on you. And it'll make her act right.

WRT the comments about 3:00 am diaper changes. I did that, and I've learned. It's not my job. Just like paying the bills and home security and fixing the car is not HER job. What I've learned is that, in a relationship, men and women have different jobs. Look, I'm not saying you NEVER change your kid's diaper at 3:00 am, what I'm saying is... when you do it you hit your woman with a guilt trip of precisely the same magnitude she would hit you with if she had to go out in the driveway and change her own tire. And I know you know exactly what I mean. You make her feel like LESS OF A WOMAN. I've tried this. It works. It's brutal, but it's a legal hit. In this situation you are the Denver pass rush and she's Cam Newton. It's all fair play and you owe it to your team and the fans to hit her with all you got.

Post: #25

- Deleted - Did not add in a positive way to the thread...