Post: #1

I recently went overseas for 5 weeks and could only carry a couple of bottles of protein. I had a third of what I typically have in a day; we're told that if we lift weights regurlarly, we should consume at least 0.5g per pound/1g per kg.

While overseas I was regularly on the move so a gym membership was out of question. I performed various bodyweight exercises covering majority of the muscle groups couple times a week max. I ran out of protein powder 1 whole week before the completion of my trip.

When I got back home and hit the weights, my reps were 5-10% less, compared to what they were just before leaving for the trip.

I was expecting a 20% drop in performance.
So is all that protein really necessary? Is my situation to be expected?

Post: #2

I think you answered your own question with your firsthand experience.

I'm Here.

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe.
To be your own man is a hard business. If you try it, you'll be lonely often, and sometimes
frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." - Kipling

Post: #3

You're having trouble hitting a decent amount of protein without a protein powder? Maybe I'm not understanding correcting.

I don't know how much you weigh but if youre getting in at least 50g of protein you should be fine. I know some people though that have gotten by on less.

But yes, quantity is somewhat important but as long as youre getting 1g per kg of lbm you should be fine. Even if your close to that I don't think you'll notice much of a difference.

Post: #4

Beyond Borders Wrote:I think you answered your own question with your firsthand experience.

I'm confused because of the many research papers and articles telling us how we need to consume at least 1g/per kg of protein. I took substantially less and my performance was essentially intact and this was with infrequent bodyweight exercises. This was over a 5 week period.

It just raised a question in my mind that is all this research truly substantive.

MiscBrah Wrote:You're having trouble hitting a decent amount of protein without a protein powder? Maybe I'm not understanding correcting.

I don't know how much you weigh but if youre getting in at least 50g of protein you should be fine. I know some people though that have gotten by on less.

But yes, quantity is somewhat important but as long as youre getting 1g per kg of lbm you should be fine. Even if your close to that I don't think you'll notice much of a difference.

No, the question was if the amount of protein I consume is a lot less compared to the guidelines over a fairly length period (5 weeks), how come my performance is not hindered?

Post: #5

There have been studies shpwing that even 2 weeks of insufficient/no exercise impact performance measurably.
Unless you do calisthenics regularly, I highly doubt your bodyweight exercises were an adequate substitute for the gym.
Instead of looking at performance, look at your actual muscle mass? Have you lost any?
If you eat an adequate amount of calorories overall, 1g of protein per kilogram of bodyweight is more than sufficient to maintain muscle mass (without streneous exercise) - for medium-length periods, at least.

Post: #6

You only need 1g of protein for the amount of LEAN mass you have in your body. Remember you are 60% water, 15-25% fat, and 20% bone mass. If you get a TANIA/CALPERS done it will give you a number for the percentage of muscle mass and you will be surprised how little your muscles weighs in relationship to the rest of your body.

It is the supplement industry that pushes the lie you need 1g for ALL mass. So for example if you weigh 180lbs, you are fine with 80-90g as a safe surplus, you could likely get away with 65-70g on some days.

My general rule is to get in at least a pound of lean meat in a day, a pound of lean meat will give you around 65 grams of protein and with a few eggs or a protein shake you hit your targets easily. You can spread out the pound of ground Turkey, for example, over three meals so your nor struggling eating a whole plate of meat to force down food.

All those BBs on YouTube who eat 350 grams of protein a day at 220lbs are not wise. They will blow up their livers down the road and many still don't eat high quality with many foods having tons of salt as a placeholder for fat.

For the OP, the source of protein does not matter much. There is no magic about protein powder, whey does have a bit more Luecine but that should not be what what makes to take it.

Protein should come down to:

Bio-availability

Digestion / Absorbency

Prefrences (access, price, ease, stomach ease)

If you are travelling in many instances local meat and meals are cheaper on a price $ /per gram for protein. No way in Asia would a fish meal cost more than a protein shake for the 25gram equivalent. But, here on Canada due to high food costs and cheap imports a protein shake costs me less than beef, fish, chicken breast, boneless thighs, so for me it makes more economical sense to consume it. In other places though, with expensive import costs, protein shakes are hard to come by abroad, and/or extremely expensive and blow food equivalents out of the water for price (and ease of access).

In any place aside from a few select Euro countries, Australia, and Canada local foods and meats will always be a better option. The biggest selling point for protein is the ease factor that you can carry a shaker and drink it whenever. This models the Western rat race life where if you are working and whatever it can be hard to eat solid actual meals. But on vacation .... vacation... this should not be the case. You should be able to find time to eat three large meals or five small ones and if you only need about 40-60% of your mass in protien it should not be hard to do.

Also remember you have a 6-hour feeding window post workout. It isnt instantly where your body needs the protein for recovery and the body is smart to link and patch together Aminos as you go about your day.

I suspect your strength losses could be also from calorie defecits in general, less sleep, and also the reality that the body adjusts for things such as altitude changes. There are
vibrations and rhythms your body cycles on that will vary from what geo-position (Marco level) you are on earth and your body does need to adjust to these differences.

Post: #7

I agree I also don't buy high protein BS I have traveled a lot and when travel don't take any protein with me when I return after week I my performance is same like before I have tried drink protein poweder 3 times per day vs nothing at all even after gym... results ... no difference at all.

Post: #8

(01-31-2016 02:01 AM)Suave Wrote:  It just raised a question in my mind that is all this research truly substantive.

This indeed!

I'm Here.

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe.
To be your own man is a hard business. If you try it, you'll be lonely often, and sometimes
frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." - Kipling

Post: #9

(01-31-2016 11:17 AM)kosko Wrote:  There are vibrations and rhythms your body cycles on that will vary from what geo-position (Marco level) you are on earth and your body does need to adjust to these differences.

Can you elaborate on this? (and I assume you mean macro level).

Post: #10

(01-31-2016 11:17 AM)kosko Wrote:  You only need 1g of protein for the amount of LEAN mass you have in your body. Remember you are 60% water, 15-25% fat, and 20% bone mass. If you get a TANIA/CALPERS done it will give you a number for the percentage of muscle mass and you will be surprised how little your muscles weighs in relationship to the rest of your body.

It is the supplement industry that pushes the lie you need 1g for ALL mass. So for example if you weigh 180lbs, you are fine with 80-90g as a safe surplus, you could likely get away with 65-70g on some days.

My general rule is to get in at least a pound of lean meat in a day, a pound of lean meat will give you around 65 grams of protein and with a few eggs or a protein shake you hit your targets easily. You can spread out the pound of ground Turkey, for example, over three meals so your nor struggling eating a whole plate of meat to force down food.

All those BBs on YouTube who eat 350 grams of protein a day at 220lbs are not wise. They will blow up their livers down the road and many still don't eat high quality with many foods having tons of salt as a placeholder for fat.

Could you back this up, or is it all anecdotal?

Yes, the supplement industry pushes protein intake on us, but protein is still important. With the correct diet - you don't need whey, I agree, but this does not mean that you can get away with 80-90g of protein/day. It might work for you based on your body and goals, but that does not mean we can drop the steaks for twinkies now.

As for the liver issues, I believe this is an old wive's tale. BUN and Creatinine levels will be elevated in weightlifters from muscle degradation AND eating high protein.

See #4: http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/berardi80.htm

Quote:Therefore, although creatinine in the blood could be a marker of a damaged kidney's inability to filter creatinine out of the body at a normal rate, it could also be a marker of rapid protein degradation (via muscle damage from weight training or from a high protein intake).

Think of the blood as a sink. If you turn on the faucet at a low rate, the amount of water going into the sink and the amount leaving the sink should balance each other out, leading to a predictable amount of water in the sink at any moment. However, if you partially plug the drain, you'll get more water accumulating in the sink at the same faucet flow rate.

This is similar to kidney dysfunction (thinking of the water as creatinine). However, alternatively, if the drain remains unplugged but you crank up the faucet flow rate, you'll get more water in the sink due to the higher flow. This is similar to a high protein diet.

Since weightlifters are continually breaking down muscle protein (this is a good thing), even in the absence of a high protein diet, blood creatinine concentrations tend to be elevated. Furthermore, add in a higher protein diet and creatinine concentrations in the blood will rise.

Remember, the doctors who raise caution with these markers and tell you to "quit juicing with that there creatine and whey proteins" are the same doctors that say 348 ng/dL testosterone is normal.

Post: #11

I do believe you can get probably away with 0.8 times bodyweight (lbs) = grams protein. However, anecdotally, I have some tendonitis in one of my patellar tendons and I do notice that it feels better when I eat very high amounts of protein.

Post: #12

Yes there is studies to back this all up.

For hypotrophy what good does matching a surplus to put protein towards your bones and water? The Aminos in surplus is purely for muscle repair, you only need to match the Aminos towards that target. Any more is just pissed out, and yes, you put unneeded stress on the liver.

High ammounts of flesh is taxing on the body to break down. Meats are full of dodgy compounds, nitrates, etc. Bodybuilding needs the flesh but you have to be smart about it. Pounding back a kilo of flesh a day will fuck your insides up good. Majority of body builders age like complete shit. Inner systems break down and slow down and can't maintain high levels. I would never want to loom like how Ronnie Coleman looks now. Looks weak and haggard. Years, decades of internal stress shows itself when the outer layers can't hide it. Most bodybuilders are in terrible shape. You gain more being proactive on it from the start.

The basics are..the more you eat, if your body can't use it for energy the more taxing it is. If you are high performance and need 6000 calories a day for instance your body is a crack pheen and will take energy how ever it can get it. With lifting though the surplus is mostly from the need to promote hypptrophy and is not as demanding as high performance. For a athlete the energy is used up quickly, it does not go through the whole process in the inner system it is digested and shot through for energy as the body needs whatever.

Think of your body as a car. The mileage breaks it down. If you only drive your car sparingly it will break down nicely. If you out the peddle down each day it will turn to shit quickly. Eating. Especially energy intensive foods such as flesh, wears down the body. This is why fibre is so important as soluble and insoluble firbe help your inner systems to break down materials. Fibre is never talked about mainstream in bodybuilding. It is as important as water and sleep but folks ignore it.

You can gain muscle with no "protein" if you just consumed BCAAs, and scales the Amino profile to the amount of protien you consume each day you would still get gains. This is expensive but you could realistically just drink BCAAs and take fish oil caps and not need much else for nutrition and not loose any muscle mass. Of course your would be lathargic from the lack of glucose and carbs, but your muscle density would not diminish.


The body can't do it alone. When your stressing about slamming down 250 grams of protein where is the room for the 40-60 grams of fibre you need to properly break all that down? Its all a scam don't listen to the shody science pushed by the suplement industry. The body isn't designed to take on the bodybuilding lifestyle. It isn't natural. So you just need to be smart about it.

All you need is to feed your lean mass in surplus. This is typically only 40% of your body weight. Go test and see how you still make gains. I just capped out at 80 grams just now, I am good for the day. By ability to sleep well will affect my hypotrophy more in all honesty.

Post: #13

I don't see why eating large quantities of protein would fuck with the kidneys. Type II diabetes generally causes or worsens CKD, which is basically impossible to get if you eat enough protein.
Ronnie Coleman (he's 50?) probably looks like shit due to all the shit he injected. HGH nose, gear face, massive stimulants/ECA for fat loss, cocaine (?), etc. Paul Carter eats a lot of protein, as does Jamie Lewis, and they look sort of beat up, but that could just be alcoholism and/or street fights.

As for OP, this is something that you want to experiment with, 1g/pound of bodyweight is just a guideline. 0.8 g/lb is mass is just a guideline. Some people might need more or less.

It's worth mentioning that almost nobody eats as much protein as they say they do. A "pound" of meat to some is 12 ounces on my food scale.

Also worth mentioning, most meat sold in stores is bloated with water. A "5 pound" pile of chicken breasts cooked ends up being 3 pounds cooked, maybe less.

I usually do better on more protein, like 1.2g/pound of bodyweight. I recommend this for anybody who puts on fat easily.

That's about a pound of chicken (123 grams), a half pound of lentils (20 grams), and two shakes (I go 60 grams/shake), sometimes a third. I don't count the "protein" in rice, broccoli, etc - it doesn't really count. Try it out, if you feel more clear-headed or better in the gym, or you recover faster, or you get leaner then that's all that's important. Lots of diets out there use really high protein, they're worth a shot. I might try Apex Predator this summer.

Post: #14

Is the conventional wisdom 1g/kg or 1g/lb? I'm seeing both cited.

Post: #15

It's been widely cited that 0.82g/lb of bodyweight is the upper limit: http://bayesianbodybuilding.com/the-myth...ybuilders/

Post: #16

Some folks do better on more. Some do better on less.

Generally speaking, the higher your calories, the less protein you require. You could probably get away with .8g/lb and be fine, maybe even less if you dick around a lot in the gym.

The lower your calories, the more protein your body needs, unless you like catabolizing all your gains.

The only reason why "serious lifters" like bodybuilders go way over those protein requirements is because

1)They need a lot of calories to maintain muscle and like 5k altogether to gain muscle
2)You can't get fat on protein.
3)Protein is anabolic. The more you eat, the more you grow. That's a fact. There are diminishing returns of course, but you get two regular dudes, one eats 100g of protein a day and the other eats 300g a day, the 300g/day guy is going to put on more muscle.
4)Good luck not getting diabetes if you have to hit 5000 calories a day with an upper limit of 180g of protein a day. That's, no shit, at least 850 grams of carbs a day.
If you don't know what that looks like, that's 20 cups of cooked rice. You thought GOMAD sucked? Try 20 cups of white rice a day.

For your average lifter who doesn't like spending $30 a day on food, you can be rest assured that 1g/lb of protein a day is just fine, in all likelihood it's probably overkill. Fill in the blanks with cheap carbs like oatmeal and rice and eat a salad or two. Most lifters don't lift hard enough to justify a high protein requirement, or even $50 a month on supplements that are mostly worthless for them (creatine, BCAA, etc).

Post: #17

To further my point, depending on how big you are and what your goals are will affect what your nutrient intake should look like.

Skinny and want to gain weight? You're fine with .8g/lb and tons of carbs.

Skinny fat? Eat more protein and diet down.

200-250lbs and want to gain muscle without too much fat? Eat more protein (you'll still eat a shit ton of carbs though). Bigger guys (like 190lbs of lean body mass kind of big) tend to eat 2g/lb for this very reason. Also, condition twice a week.

200-250lbs and want to cut weight without losing muscle? Eat more protein and fewer carbs. Still do conditioning.

Some folks simply do better with high carbs. They tend to have strong hormonal profiles that can handle massive insulin spikes. For guys who don't, they have to eat more protein to counteract this, or expect to gain 1 lb of muscle for every 3-5lbs of fat. Raising your activity level will help with this.

Some folks do better with different types of carbs. One man's diet of white rice and chicken might make another guy fat; he would have to sub in brown rice instead. Some guys can eat fruit and it gets used as energy, others tend to store it as fat. It all depends. If you're not sure, look up "low glycemic carbs" and go from there.

A 175 lb dude who does P90x in his apartment is going to have different protein requirements from a 225lb gym rat who lifts 6 days a week for an hour or more. It all depends.

Post: #18

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamilton/n...-1.3423359

Here's a cool study - they made two groups cut their caloric intake by 40%. They had to lift weights six days per week.

They also increased protein uptake to about 1.2g/kg and 2.4 g/kg (which is about .5g/lb and 1g/lb respectively).

Results -

Four Week Study Wrote:To our surprise the amount of muscle lost, even in the low protein group, was negligible and they lost about 3.5 kg of fat. The high protein group was able to gain muscle mass. They gained about two pounds of muscle and lost about 10 pounds of body fat. So, an improved profile of fat loss and muscle gain in the high protein group.

Takeaway - the group that ate more protein not only built muscle, but they also burned more fat doing the exact same workouts, for the same period of time, eating the same amount of calories per day.

I guess you can cut fat while gaining muscle, as long as you're eating enough protein and working out hard enough. According to these guys, they were constantly hungry all the time (not a big surprise).

Post: #19

If people here are saying 100g of protein a day is enough for someone 70kg, then that means there are 1,600 calories coming from non-protein sources (assuming 2,000 calorie per day diet). How should that be divided between fat and carbs? 120 grams of fat and 130 grams of carbs?

Post: #20

General guidelines suggest that sources of fat should take up about 10-20% of your total caloric intake. This is if you plan on eating high carb.

So if you were to only eat 100 g of protein a day and you weigh 70 kg, your split would look like.

45 g fat
100 g protein
388 g carbs (ie the rest of your calories)

Since 100g of protein is on the low side, I would do at least 125 g protein (bw x .8) and have 360g carbs a day instead.

Your mileage may vary. 2000 calories for someone looking to maintain at 154 lbs bodyweight is on the low side, 2300 calories a day is more realistic.

Post: #21

Wanted to get the forum's input:

I remember reading a while ago a study that suggested that consuming any more than ~20 grams of protein in one meal meant that the excess protein was pretty much ending up as waste product, and not metabolized by your body. Any comments on this? Do you try to space your protein consumption out over the course of a day, or do you down it pretty much all at once? Does it really matter? Have you seen results one way or another?

Post: #22

This is an issue complicated by supplement companies who push false nutrition and physiology for financial gain. A very succesful powerlifter Fred Hatfield once commented on his forum that he thought protein powders were not edible for pigs, much less humans. I used to waste a lot of money on supplements as a kid but what matters in the end is whether or not you're getting stronger in the weight room. If you're getting stronger, why would you burden your body with any more supplements or food? The vast majority of people are getting enough protein without paying attention to it, though this admittedly concerns people who don't necessarily lift.

In addition that X grams of protein per pound of weight is a bit simplistic because a lot of your body weight is made up of bones and fat. Do you need to feed that fat with protein too? Maybe you do but I'm not convinved of it.

I personally believe the slight drop in your strength levels had a lot more to do with not lifting as opposed to not getting enough protein.

In the end of the day the only thing I know is that not stuffing yourself can never hurt your health and may increase longevity and your numbers can go up in the absence of obsessing about protein. Perhaps they would go up even faster when obsessing about it but it might come at a cost.

Post: #23

(01-17-2017 10:58 PM)John Michael Kane Wrote:  Wanted to get the forum's input:

I remember reading a while ago a study that suggested that consuming any more than ~20 grams of protein in one meal meant that the excess protein was pretty much ending up as waste product, and not metabolized by your body. Any comments on this? Do you try to space your protein consumption out over the course of a day, or do you down it pretty much all at once? Does it really matter? Have you seen results one way or another?

I don't think it really matters. I think it's pushed by that eat 6 small meals every 2 hours. That has been pushed for forever.

I'm sure it only becomes a factor if you eat past being full. Most of the time when you eat a protein rich meal you can really feel it sit in your stomach and I'm sure it absorbs slowly anyway.

Post: #24

(01-17-2017 10:58 PM)John Michael Kane Wrote:  Wanted to get the forum's input:

I remember reading a while ago a study that suggested that consuming any more than ~20 grams of protein in one meal meant that the excess protein was pretty much ending up as waste product, and not metabolised by your body. Any comments on this? Do you try to space your protein consumption out over the course of a day, or do you down it pretty much all at once? Does it really matter? Have you seen results one way or another?

This question of protein and body processes all varies between the types and quantity of protein you consume. A steak can take 18 hours to break down in your gut and system so this idea that magic happens within a few hours that inhibits the next infusion of protein is not 100% correct IMO (but not 100% false either).

Your body stitches together its Amino needs quite efficiently as it needs them and it isn't as time sensitive as many believe, the right window is roughly more towards 6 hours where if the body has zero amino to stitch together then it will go looking for it in its stores within the muscle.

But Aminos are a by-product of the fact after the gut digestion, where meat can take a long time. Or, with supplements next to as little as 20 mins before the Aminos are extracted out.

If you consumed a bunch of supplements, protein shakes and BCAAs then had a light fish meal; then your body would indeed just dump away from the excess amino acids. In that short of a window it could have potentially broken down and processed all of those foods in a very quick manner, and in that time window, the body will stitch together what it needs and then just junk the rest.

Post: #25

It's all relative to absorbtion.

I consume around 1g per pound of bodyweight, as a bodybuilder.

However, 50 grams of whey is different than 50 grams of chicken. The chicken will digest slower and be absorbed more thoroughly.

However, you mix that whey with some peanut butter or eat it with a sandwich, and all of the sudden it slows it down and you absorb it a little more thoroughly.

You optimize your digestion by taking digestive enzymes or eating more veggies (if needed) and all of the sudden you don't need to get in quite as much protein as you did before.

So while quantity is a factor, absorbtion plays a huge role as well. And typically as you increase your intake of a nutrient, your absorbtion of it becomes a little worse as diet becomes a little imbalanced and your ability to produce the correct enzymes to break it down gets maxed out.