Post: #651

Dreaming stories vary throughout Australia, with variations on the same theme.

The meaning and significance of particular places and creatures is wedded to their origin in the Dreaming, and certain places have a particular potency or "dreaming." For example, the story of how the sun was made is different in New South Wales and in Western Australia.

Stories cover many themes and topics, as there are stories about creation of sacred places, land, people, animals and plants, law and custom.

In Perth, the Noongar believe that the Darling Scarp is the body of the Wagyl – a serpent being that meandered over the land creating rivers, waterways and lakes and who created the Swan River.

In another example, the Gagudju people of Arnhemland, for which Kakadu National Park is named, believe that the sandstone escarpment that dominates the park's landscape was created in the Dreamtime when Ginga (the crocodile-man) was badly burned during a ceremony and jumped into the water to save himself.

"Dreaming" existed before the life of the individual begins, and continues to exist when the life of the individual ends. Both before and after life, it is believed that this spirit-child exists in the Dreaming and is only initiated into life by being born through a mother.

The spirit of the child is culturally understood to enter the developing fetus during the fifth month of pregnancy. When the mother felt the child move in the womb for the first time, it was thought that this was the work of the spirit of the land in which the mother then stood. Upon birth, the child is considered to be a special custodian of that part of their country and is taught the stories and songlines of that place.

Creation is believed to be the work of culture heroes who traveled across a formless land, creating sacred sites and significant places of interest in their travels. In this way, "songlines" were established, some of which could travel right across Australia, through as many as six to ten different language groupings. The dreaming and travelling trails of the Spirit Beings are the songlines. The signs of the Spirit Beings may be of spiritual essence, physical remains such as petrosomatoglyphs of body impressions or footprints, among natural and elemental simulacra.

Post: #652

The Rainbow Serpent is one of the oldest continuing religious beliefs in the world

The most common motif in Rainbow Serpent stories is the Serpent as creator, with the Serpent often bringing life to an empty space.

It is named for the obvious identification between the shape of a rainbow and the shape of a snake.

When the rainbow is seen in the sky, it is said to be the Rainbow Serpent moving from one waterhole to another, and the divine concept explained why some waterholes never dried up when drought struck.

The most common Rainbow Serpent myth is the story of the Wawalag sisters.

According to legend, the sisters are traveling together when the older sister gives birth, and her blood flows to a waterhole where the Rainbow Serpent lives.

In another version of the tale, the sisters are traveling with their mother, Kunapipi, all of whom know ancient secrets, and the Serpent is merely angered by their presence in its area. The Rainbow Serpent then traces the scent back to the sisters sleeping in their hut, a metaphor for the uterus. The Rainbow Serpent enters, a symbolic representation of a snake entering a hole, and eats them and their children.

However, the Rainbow Serpent regurgitates them after being bitten by an ant, and this act creates Arnhem Land. Now, the Serpent speaks in their voices and teaches sacred rituals to the people living there.

Another story is from the Great Sandy Desert area in the northern part of Western Australia. This story explains how the Wolfe Creek Crater, or Kandimalal, was created by a star falling from heaven, creating a crater in which a Rainbow Serpent took up residence, though in some versions it is the Serpent which falls from heaven and creates the crater. The story sometimes continues telling of how an old hunter chased a dingo into the crater and got lost in a tunnel created by the Serpent, never to be found again, with the dingo being eaten and spit out by the Serpent.

A myth from the Northern Territory tells of how a great mother arrives from the sea, traveling across Australia and giving birth to the various Aboriginal tribes. In some versions, the great mother is accompanied by the Rainbow Serpent (or Lightning Snake), who brings the wet season of rains and floods.

Post: #653

(12-04-2017 06:40 PM)RatInTheWoods Wrote:  In Perth, the Noongar believe that the Darling Scarp is the body of the Wagyl – a serpent being that meandered over the land creating rivers, waterways and lakes and who created the Swan River.

Interestingly, if somewhat tangentially the Wagyl has been known to move if there's money in it for certain Aboriginal clans.

Similar goes for a lot of native title claims in Australia: shit will often get made up about what the land was supposedly used for because there are literally millions of dollars in it for the "traditional" "owners" of the land.

God save us from people who mean well. -storm

Post: #654

(12-04-2017 12:06 PM)Laska Wrote:  

(12-04-2017 11:30 AM)debeguiled Wrote:  Moral of the story. Be careful, because if you ask Paracelsus a question he might give you more answer than you were ready for.

Paracelsus, what's the meaning of life?

Be kind. Wu.

God save us from people who mean well. -storm

Post: #655

Wu?

Post: #656

(12-04-2017 08:16 PM)Paracelsus Wrote:  Interestingly, if somewhat tangentially the Wagyl has been known to move if there's money in it for certain Aboriginal clans.

Similar goes for a lot of native title claims in Australia: shit will often get made up about what the land was supposedly used for because there are literally millions of dollars in it for the "traditional" "owners" of the land.

Made up stories and religions corrupted and hijacked for power and money?

Who would have guessed it.....

Post: #657

Lot of good stuff on this channel. It isn't all theory.
There is a personal element to faith.

Post: #658

A well known engineer who worked at Google and Uber has founded a new religion called Way of the Future, which will worship an artificial intelligence god.

New AI God/Religion to be created

Evolution of religion?

A real god that has evidence of its existence?

A benevolent and moral authority all humans can get behind?


The downside is that I doubt AI will reach the required level to get this off the ground. Currently my computer can not reliably boot up, never mind hear the prayers of millions of faithful each day.....



An AI could write a bible for how to live and expect humans to become subservient.


A podcaster named Rose Eveleth helped create an algorithm that wrote an AI bible gathered from sacred writings. It’s a remarkable exercise, even though the result is mostly gibberish. Whether that really matters is open to debate, according to the experts.

“An AI would provide the equivalent of a ‘Messiah’ -- having many orders of magnitude more processing elements than the brain, enabling it to gift us with solutions to the most daunting social, political, economic, and environmental challenges,” says Dr. Stephen Thaler, the President and CEO of Imagination Engines who is an AI and consciousness expert.

Post: #659

^^^^

Per Richard Dawkins' observation in The Blind Watchmaker, the creator is always more complex than the created, thus (in his view) there is no God. By this reasoning AI can never become more complex than its creator and therefore never God.

God save us from people who mean well. -storm

Post: #660

(12-10-2017 05:38 PM)Paracelsus Wrote:  ^^^^

Per Richard Dawkins' observation in The Blind Watchmaker, the creator is always more complex than the created, thus (in his view) there is no God. By this reasoning AI can never become more complex than its creator and therefore never God.

I've never been one to just believe generalised assumptions like that one.

I suppose it all depends on what we mean when we say "complex".

For example, humans created the internet, and it is very much more complex than humans.

Think of the sum of knowledge, processing power, data transfer and reasoning power that large data and the internet process.

The "singularity" gang assert that if processors keep getting exponentially more powerful that they will inevitably become more intelligent than their creators...

Another example is an algorithm or simple rule (few lines of code) can produce an infinitely more complex result or dataset. Think fractals.

In some ways the universe is a very complex entity created with a few simple laws of physics and some basic materials (hydrogen).

And then there is the theme that everything "has to be created" which can't be logically true....

Post: #661

(12-10-2017 07:26 PM)RatInTheWoods Wrote:  In some ways the universe is a very complex entity created with a few simple laws of physics and some basic materials (hydrogen).

You should go have a look at Edward Wilson's Consilience. His metaphor of science being like Theseus holding Ariadne's silken thread will probably appeal to you. That said, I agree, like all terms in this stuff, "complexity" should be defined first. No, I don't want to right now.

God save us from people who mean well. -storm

Post: #662

Yes, I do. Believing in some superpowers slightly helps in real life.

Post: #663

Everything that exists follows rules, patterns, and cycles, but who designed these things? Nothing comes out of nowhere.

The initial energy that created everything; that's God. Everything that happened later was the will of that energy; there is no luck or randomness or waste; everything that exists works perfectly with each other and fits like a giant puzzle. It's a work of genius and the farthest thing away from randomness and luck.

Post: #664

(12-11-2017 02:16 AM)xxx Wrote:  Everything that exists follows rules, patterns, and cycles, but who designed these things? Nothing comes out of nowhere.

But then who designed the god? Since nothing comes from nowhere....

If there is room in your belief for "things existing since the beginning of time" then it might as well occam's razor down to matter and the laws of physics.
The introduction of a supernatural creator does not solve the "something from nothing" problem.

Religious people used to think chariots pulled the sun across the sky, and then we learned about orbits and rotation of the Earth etc.
Understanding the laws of physics that are behind the universe's creation are a lot harder than the earth's orbit, but it's no reason to invent a religious explanation.
We should have evolved out of that kind of behavior by now...

How things started or where all this shit comes from is one of the greatest mysteries of the universe.

As apes on a rocky planet we will probably never know the real cause.

Post: #665

(12-11-2017 05:05 PM)RatInTheWoods Wrote:  As apes on a rocky planet we will probably never know the real cause.

When actual apes and chimpanzees start building skyscrapers, turning the lights on, and making the water flow, then you can call us apes. We're men. We're human.

Until then....fail.

Post: #666

Has anyone read Christopher Hitchens God is not great?

Post: #667

(12-12-2017 04:23 AM)Spectrumwalker Wrote:  

(12-11-2017 05:05 PM)RatInTheWoods Wrote:  As apes on a rocky planet we will probably never know the real cause.

When actual apes and chimpanzees start building skyscrapers, turning the lights on, and making the water flow, then you can call us apes. We're men. We're human.

Until then....fail.

You did a biology 101 fail.

And you upset the relatives!

Do you think we are not mammals as well?

Post: #668

(12-12-2017 10:18 AM)Piankhi Wrote:  Has anyone read Christopher Hitchens God is not great?

I haven't read it, but I saw a video a couple of years ago by a Mormon historian who did a partial rebuttal of this book, including the chapter devoted to Mormonism. It's hilarious the insane inaccuracies that he points out. I was in stitches through parts of this. The general Christian/religious stuff begins at 10:20.

Post: #669

Here's the man himself talking about his book.

I was also in stitches at his wit, humour and observations about religion.

Post: #670

Do I believe in God? Yes

Do I believe He rewards the strong and punishes the weak? Absolutely!

However, God also rewards the patient!

Post: #671

(12-12-2017 10:18 AM)Piankhi Wrote:  Has anyone read Christopher Hitchens God is not great?

Yes. Hitchens is a gifted writer and the book is rhetorically very engaging. Unfortunately, it suffers from historical and philosophical illiteracy.

Also, nice username.

Post: #672

(12-03-2017 05:44 PM)RatInTheWoods Wrote:  Agnostics don't really exist.

Ask them "do you believe god(s) exists" and they have to answer yes and become a deist or no and become an atheist.

"I don't really know" is an answer that all three groups share in common.

"Agnostic" is more of a social position - "I'm too rational to believe in the supernatural, but too polite to suggest you are crazy, so I'll take this fluffy sit on the fence label kthxbi"

I disagree, I don't have to say yes or no. What's wrong with saying "I don't know" or "I'm not sure"? I really have no idea whether God exists or not, and I'm not going to pretend that I know.

I would answer the same way if you asked me some other hard question about a subject I don't understand and I'm barely qualified to comment on such as quantum physics.

Post: #673

I was an atheist. Most of family is atheist.

Now that I'm not I'm ashamed that I didn't see it before. It's really obvious if you, in real honesty, open your heart to it. Like stepping outside a fishbowl and saying to yourself: "How did I, for all those years, not know I was in a fish bowl, swimming around, being fed by someone daily, having my water changed, etc.?"

Happily too I've stopped thinking that I could "prove" the existence through a logical argument to someone. A: This is not possible for good reasons, B: Who was I really trying to prove this to?

Big problem with me now is the thrill of pride I get when I meet someone who is an atheist. Spiritual pride. This is truly really bad and something I need to address with vigilance and meditation.

Post: #674

(12-11-2017 05:05 PM)RatInTheWoods Wrote:  

(12-11-2017 02:16 AM)xxx Wrote:  Everything that exists follows rules, patterns, and cycles, but who designed these things? Nothing comes out of nowhere.

But then who designed the god? Since nothing comes from nowhere....

If there is room in your belief for "things existing since the beginning of time" then it might as well occam's razor down to matter and the laws of physics.
The introduction of a supernatural creator does not solve the "something from nothing" problem.

Religious people used to think chariots pulled the sun across the sky, and then we learned about orbits and rotation of the Earth etc.
Understanding the laws of physics that are behind the universe's creation are a lot harder than the earth's orbit, but it's no reason to invent a religious explanation.
We should have evolved out of that kind of behavior by now...

How things started or where all this shit comes from is one of the greatest mysteries of the universe.

As apes on a rocky planet we will probably never know the real cause.

I think people of this mindset are short changing our ancestors. I think the myths and lore of our people are a bit more complex than what basically amounts to overgrown children with the mindsets of 6 year olds looking up at the sky and thinking "gee a man is really pulling the sun in a chariot."

Post: #675

No, and if God does exist, then it doesn’t give a shit about our opinions on the subject. Be a good human. Although, the church (religion) is a good place to find a compliant woman to bear children. Religion and God are mutually exclusive issues, frequently marketed by con artists (religions) to take your resources in the name of God.