Same as pair-bonding, it's beneficial to care about our tribe / group / community it's very much a survival mechanism. Heavy investment in tight knit groups.

It would also be beneficial to forget about non-resources or wasted energy, if you are pure materialist. Do you at least see that the explanation materialists use are inititally, or eventually, problematic? Problematic in that they don't explain anything but in a retro-fitted way when the standard principle to explain everything doesn't fit.

(03-27-2018 12:23 AM)Super_Fire Wrote:  

(03-07-2018 10:32 PM)Piankhi Wrote:  I would like to refer to Christopher Hitchens. Even if gods exist, how do you know what they want you to eat, wear or have sex with? Who can claim to know the thoughts of god?

Because "God" is the rational order of the universe, and thus to "believe" in God is to believe that the universe is inherently rational, and that things are made to work a certain way. Humans instinctively know right from wrong; if we choose to ignore it we feel guilt and remorse, unless we're messed up. If parents fight, their child cries. If you steal from a child, they'll cry. If you threaten them, they'll get scared. If you tease them, they feel hurt. They know these things aren't right.

Atheism is the slippery slope to moral relativism, the pretext for their subversive and degenerate lifestyle that they crave because of their poor upbringing. Don't let yourself be fooled to follow them down their path.

Morality without God is bankrupt. An atheist can answer any moral question with "so what." I've been there (before my relationship with God.)

Quick example (not from my own past thinking but a good illistration.)

C: Murder is wrong.
Atheist: Why?
C: You're gonna leave a lot of people heartbroken
Atheist: So what?

Anyone who reads this thread who believes in God abstractly, try talking to God (praying.) This has turned my life around.

(04-02-2018 08:34 AM)godfather dust Wrote:  Morality without God is bankrupt. An atheist can answer any moral question with "so what." I've been there (before my relationship with God.)

Quick example (not from my own past thinking but a good illistration.)

C: Murder is wrong.
Atheist: Why?
C: You're gonna leave a lot of people heartbroken
Atheist: So what?

What's the other side of this argument? Murder is wrong because God says it is?

(04-02-2018 08:34 AM)godfather dust Wrote:  Morality without God is bankrupt. An atheist can answer any moral question with "so what."

^^Dawkins is attacking a strawman. God does not solely equal the Old Testament or the Koran.

God, as I continue to type here to seemingly little reaction, is the rational order of the Universe. Logos. Which is what Dawkins is essentially talking about, but he won't go down that path and extend it to deviant behaviors or moral relativism because that's what the New Atheists are all about.

You have to cherry pick? Read the Gospel of St. John's first sentence in Greek briefly Dawkins and then meditate on that.

Let's do this dance again:

^Are you a staunch theist and there is nothing that could make you change your mind? Or are you open to the idea that there is no god?

The question goes to the atheists, is there something that would alter your opnion? I am open minded, if I saw or heard god himself I would believe.

(04-03-2018 12:35 AM)Scoundrel Wrote:  

(04-02-2018 08:34 AM)godfather dust Wrote:  Morality without God is bankrupt. An atheist can answer any moral question with "so what." I've been there (before my relationship with God.)

Quick example (not from my own past thinking but a good illistration.)

C: Murder is wrong.
Atheist: Why?
C: You're gonna leave a lot of people heartbroken
Atheist: So what?

What's the other side of this argument? Murder is wrong because God says it is?

Yes. Let's say murdering someone down the street will pay a years salary. As an atheist you could say, "well, it's probably kind of bad but on balance I can raise my kids better and I'll donate to charity."

Tell me why this is wrong (if God didn't say so.)

"Well society would break down!"
"So what. Gotta feed the family right?"

You see the results of Christianity becoming less popular in America every single day.

(04-03-2018 12:35 AM)RatInTheWoods Wrote:  

(04-02-2018 08:34 AM)godfather dust Wrote:  Morality without God is bankrupt. An atheist can answer any moral question with "so what."

And what about his appeal to modernity for some kind of validation for his beliefs? It's one fallacy after another with this guy.

Look at the state of the world today. Secular Europe falling apart. Male/female relations in complete and utter ruins. Rampant drug abuse and suicide. Etc, etc, etc.

In the future, Dawkins' beliefs will register as a bizarre anecdote of a chaotic time. The arrogance of scientists to step outside their box and think their narrow competence transfers.

Dawkins et al are poster children for Western degenerates. They preach an easy, pleasure-oriented life, devoid of meaning. Don't we notice how he's always straw-manning religion too. His sleight of hand is telling for a supposed scientist.

How easy it is to denounce God when there's hot water in your taps, food in the fridge, some semblance of law and order on the streets. What a joke.

And how obvious it is that many lay atheists have never opened a religious book themselves. They turn to Dawkins and his bumpkins as cover for their sloth. Bunch of frauds.

Whatever criticisms atheists can lay at many of the fake Christian churches out there, that's one thing. But I notice how no criticism is ever directed at Christ's original church, the Christian Orthodox.

(04-02-2018 07:20 PM)godfather dust Wrote:  Anyone who reads this thread who believes in God abstractly, try talking to God (praying.) This has turned my life around.

You can read the Bible all you want, and try to be a good person, but if you don't have an experience of God as a real person, it doesn't even matter if you are Jordan Peterson, you will be missing much of the whole point.

Many atheists can talk circles around believers, but when you make a suggestion like this, they get all quiet, because this is the ultimate test, and they aren't willing to do it because they are scared something might happen that they don't want to deal with.

They will tell you that the reason they don't do this is that it is silly, or that people who do this are just hearing their own voice and calling it god, or state tossing terms like confirmation bias around.

I had a good friend, Jewish dude, and we talked about religion for a couple hours and got nowhere till I finally said, well, have you ever just taken a quiet moment alone to ask God, in your mind, if he was really there, and if he is to show you?

He looked at me for a long moment, smiled, and said, maybe I will someday.

Maybe. Some day.

This is the ultimate litmus test, and yet there are millions out there who will never try this, and talk all around it, over it, and under it.

You could even lose friends by suggesting this.

A real conversation stopper.

It's actually not even fair to single out atheists on this one. A lot of believers treat religion, and godfather dust has pointed out, as one more abstraction to debate on the net.

All meaningless if you aren't willing to get your hands dirty and get personal.

The problem with saying your gods give you "absolute morality" is that your god never actually tells you in person, does he?

"His wisdom" always gets handed down by some corrupt, shady, self interested, altar boy fiddling intermediate.

Most religious morality (that has served us well in history) is really the collective wisdom, experience and debate from wise men that Dawkins is talking about.

Thats what he is saying, religious moral authority doesn't come from gods, it comes from men, society and collective wisdom.

How has atheism improved your life?

I used to be very religious and believe in God even though I grew up with atheist parents and siblings. When my grand parents died or when my pets died I noticed that I tooked it way harder than they did. They would be back to normal just a few weeks after they passed away while I became depressed and just prayed and stuff.

During the same time in my teenage years I was being bullied and believing in God helped me through that tough time and gave me sort of superpowers because I felt I had some power behind me.

But then I started to read the Bible and realized the stories were just too weird and unbelievable and filled with plenty of moral contradictions. And when I wanted to talk with other Christians they kind of wanted to ignore the hard questions which I sensed was because they didn't want to question the existence of God in the same way I had ignored it in the past.

Sometimes when I prayed in my teenage years I would get goosebumps but eventually, I realized that was just probably myself getting into a more meditative state (and not the experience of some God).

Eventually, close to my twenties, I arrived at the conclusion that there was no God. Stefan Molyneux has some great arguments as to why that I also listened to.

And then I went into a sort of no man's land in terms of morality. What would I do now? Did morality even exist? Could I just fuck as many bitches and jerk off without feeling guilty now because there is no God? Even okay to murder someone?
So I became kind of lost in terms of morality because I thought the only thing that had prevented me from doing immoral stuff in the past was the fear of not being liked by God.

Then I realized that I didn't have to be a degenerate just because there wasn't a God, but actually because of other reasons.


***

That was several years ago. Nowadays I have to admit I feel a bit less passionate about life without believing in a God, I took everything so serious back then and I can see how people took advantage of me because I cared more about morality than they did (some still do to a certain degree).

Lately, I've been wondering a lot about the creation of the universe and stuff though and how it came about in the first place, the very first atoms - how the fuck were they created?
And I've been thinking a lot about the probability of life - how fucking insane if it now was some small particles back in the day that eventually led to the big bang that created a sun that was in perfect distance from this planet that just happened to have the right conditions for the potential of life. And the probability of particles being put together in the right manner to create bacterias to eventually form intelligent life that can create some machines we use in order to debate with each other of how all this ever came about with some electromagnetic waves that no one is even fully sure of how it all works.

So in just a few months I will travel to Israel and visit some historic christian sites and try to give God another last go, but I doubt that I will.

Couldn't fucking sleep tonight so sorry about the ramble.

(04-03-2018 09:46 PM)dosequis Wrote:  I used to be very religious and believe in God even though I grew up with atheist parents and siblings. When my grand parents died or when my pets died I noticed that I tooked it way harder than they did. They would be back to normal just a few weeks after they passed away while I became depressed and just prayed and stuff.

...

So in just a few months I will travel to Israel and visit some historic christian sites and try to give God another last go, but I doubt that I will.

Couldn't fucking sleep tonight so sorry about the ramble.

I think a difficult problem to overcome is our mindset. We've been conditioned to expect solutions to every problem, pre-packaged and to be plugged in.

Developing a relationship with God is first about submitting. Of course, this requires humility, something not exactly plentiful on this forum, or the world in general.

The point above about actually talking to God is telling. The reason why so many won't do it is because it would be an admission of their pride, and unwillingness to recognise God as their superior.

These days we're taught to worship our minds, our intellects, our thoughts and ideas. We are to see ourselves as gods of our own. In essence this is satanic.

You're never going to find to God by visiting some place. You should first admit to Him that you're lost, accept that you need His help, and have the patience to allow Him to come to you.

It sounds like you're stuck in the cesspool of nihilism. You sound despondent.

The Bible is a complex, complicated collection of works. I wouldn't interpret it literally. No credible authority recommends that (I'm aware of the Sola Scriptura approach of the Protestants but I don't agree with their approach). The Bible should be read in the context of the interpretation of theological tradition.

But remember that you can't blame God for not doing what you need to do in your life. God helps those who help themselves. It sounds like you're struggling in general with some things at the moment. Maybe you need to accept that you can't take life on all by yourself?

I mean, I've no doubt that you can, but you could be lacking the meaning that you need to be able to bear your burden.

(04-03-2018 05:39 PM)RatInTheWoods Wrote:  The problem with saying your gods give you "absolute morality" is that your god never actually tells you in person, does he?

"His wisdom" always gets handed down by some corrupt, shady, self interested, altar boy fiddling intermediate.

Most religious morality (that has served us well in history) is really the collective wisdom, experience and debate from wise men that Dawkins is talking about.

Thats what he is saying, religious moral authority doesn't come from gods, it comes from men, society and collective wisdom.

You think Dawkins and his chums are wise? They push the bullshit ideology that lead us all to this forum. You sound like that dumb broad on the recent talk with Jordan Peterson and William Lane Craig.

(04-02-2018 07:20 PM)godfather dust Wrote:  Anyone who reads this thread who believes in God abstractly, try talking to God (praying.) This has turned my life around.

Praying has helped me a lot too.
The pineal gland calcification is so common in the West that it could be one of reasons why many people have lost their connection to spirituality and have turned over to mindless SJWism as a religion.

If you are going to believe in a god, I think it should the god of your people and ancestors.

(04-03-2018 05:39 PM)RatInTheWoods Wrote:  The problem with saying your gods give you "absolute morality" is that your god never actually tells you in person, does he?

"His wisdom" always gets handed down by some corrupt, shady, self interested, altar boy fiddling intermediate.

Right on the coattails of several posts talking about prayer and seeking God directly, comes a tangent like this.

People who don't believe in God literally tune out any mention of prayer. They literally cannot see or hear it.

This is why there is no point in arguing about it.

You can mention it in passing, and they can pick up on it if they want, but if they don't want, then it doesn't exist.

Please don't take this personally Mr. RitW, because we all have our blindspots, and even as I write this, I can think of countless times I have been the one blocking out things I didn't want to deal with. Denial is purely and simply the human condition, and we all engage in it constantly.

I was merely pointing out that atheists do it when you talk about having a good old chat with the spirit in the sky.

(04-03-2018 10:05 AM)fenetre Wrote:  

(04-03-2018 12:35 AM)RatInTheWoods Wrote:  

(04-02-2018 08:34 AM)godfather dust Wrote:  Morality without God is bankrupt. An atheist can answer any moral question with "so what."

And what about his appeal to modernity for some kind of validation for his beliefs? It's one fallacy after another with this guy.

Look at the state of the world today. Secular Europe falling apart. Male/female relations in complete and utter ruins. Rampant drug abuse and suicide. Etc, etc, etc.

In the future, Dawkins' beliefs will register as a bizarre anecdote of a chaotic time. The arrogance of scientists to step outside their box and think their narrow competence transfers.

Dawkins et al are poster children for Western degenerates. They preach an easy, pleasure-oriented life, devoid of meaning. Don't we notice how he's always straw-manning religion too. His sleight of hand is telling for a supposed scientist.

How easy it is to denounce God when there's hot water in your taps, food in the fridge, some semblance of law and order on the streets. What a joke.

And how obvious it is that many lay atheists have never opened a religious book themselves. They turn to Dawkins and his bumpkins as cover for their sloth. Bunch of frauds.

Whatever criticisms atheists can lay at many of the fake Christian churches out there, that's one thing. But I notice how no criticism is ever directed at Christ's original church, the Christian Orthodox.

Revelations 2 https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.biblega...erface=amp

Explains the problem with theoretical/philosophical Christianity.

Revelation 2 King James Version (KJV)
2 Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;

2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:

3 And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted.

4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.

5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

(04-04-2018 06:29 AM)Piankhi Wrote:  If you are going to believe in a god, I think it should the god of your people and ancestors.

Restore Christianity to the Middle East!

I've met god and we daygamed a bit. Also gave each other rep points. Nice guy!

https://www.rooshvforum.com/user-42613.html

(04-04-2018 03:29 PM)Alpha Wrote:  

(04-04-2018 06:29 AM)Piankhi Wrote:  If you are going to believe in a god, I think it should the god of your people and ancestors.

Restore Christianity to the Middle East!

More like restore Marduk and Ishtar to the Middle East.

Believing that there is no after life has made this life more meaningful for me. And I wouldnt want some invisible entity watching my every move and knowing my thoughts. Like Hitchens said that is totalitarianism and celestial tyranny.