All the great men of all time have believed in God as someone who wants to be great, yes I believe in God and you should to.

I started praying and thinking about God lately. I have had some major things change in my life, recently. The change in fortune did not make me want to praise God. It was the opposite. It made me reflect on all of the past things I had been doing: lack of belief, living with a scarcity mindset, nothing will ever change, I am a loser, etc.

Whether you belive in God, or not. Having an abundant daily attitude and developing a sense of self confidence and winning will change your life.

I realized that when you say things could not get any more worse, they will. And if you say you cannot be any more blessed in life, you will get even more back. But you also have to give and give unselfishly.

Somebody above wrote that Jesus came, so that we might live more abundantly. That is true! God does not want you walking around depressed, thinking nothing will ever work out, hating life. God created and owns everything. Success and failure are lessons in life. God has done his part, to set us up for everything in life. We have to do our part to accept his blessings, live with faith. Live with a good attitude. Stop letting things get you down and everything else in your life will change too.

(02-06-2018 11:40 PM)Paracelsus Wrote:  <snipped a load of text book logic question dodging>

Why are you omitting that people generally seek medical treatment for the relief of pain and suffering that they are experiencing first? Without that qualification, you give the appearance of arguing for compulsory euthanasia for ingrown toenails.

That wasn't the essence of the question.. straw man toenails...

(02-06-2018 11:40 PM)Paracelsus Wrote:  You can agree or disagree with what a full, rich Christian life involves, certainly, but it's a bit silly to run around asserting that real religion should be teaching suicide.

You are the silly one if you lack the reading comprehension to note that I devoted a special sentence at the end, just for you to show I understand suicide is excluded. That was a waste of my time. Strawman 2 (although *some* religions run around teaching suicide...)

Let me ask the question again, using little words for you to answer:

If heaven is great, and people *really believe in it* why would they seek medical attention for cancer or other terminal but treatable illnesses?

Quite often the treatment for cancer trades a "south of France" healthy pleasant window for cancer into a miserable Chemo nightmare, for a slim chance of a cure.

To me, the fact that religious people would opt to go for a miserable chance of a cure, rather than a holiday to the south of France before a free ticket to heaven, shows that they really know there is no heaven at some level.

(02-07-2018 01:46 AM)advik78 Wrote:  All the great men of all time have believed in God as someone who wants to be great, yes I believe in God and you should to.

The question is, with so many god, demigods, spirits and religious on offer, how can you pick one that suits your needs?

Should I go for the one with the hottest chicks? Closest temples?

Best afterlife rewards and least effort to worship?

Or pick something obscure to be real cool?

Being atheist is just easier than making all those difficult decisions!

(02-07-2018 08:52 PM)RatInTheWoods Wrote:  

(02-07-2018 01:46 AM)advik78 Wrote:  All the great men of all time have believed in God as someone who wants to be great, yes I believe in God and you should to.

The question is, with so many god, demigods, spirits and religious on offer, how can you pick one that suits your needs?

Should I go for the one with the hottest chicks? Closest temples?

Best afterlife rewards and least effort to worship?

Or pick something obscure to be real cool?

Being atheist is just easier than making all those difficult decisions!

Easy, become Catholic.

(02-07-2018 08:48 PM)RatInTheWoods Wrote:  If heaven is great, and people *really believe in it* why would they seek medical attention for cancer or other terminal but treatable illnesses?

Aside from the other problems I've identified with the premise of the proposition, someone who deliberately shortens his path to heaven solely because he thinks he'll get the eternal reward that much faster -- which is the essence of the question you're putting -- is someone who is shot through with greed and an overblown sense of entitlement. That person would likely be in for a considerable surprise on reaching heaven, assuming they go there at all.

There's no dignity or wisdom in an early and selfish death. And a great deal of both wisdom and dignity in bearing suffering that the world places on you.

Quote:To me, the fact that religious people would opt to go for a miserable chance of a cure, rather than a holiday to the south of France before a free ticket to heaven, shows that they really know there is no heaven at some level.

Given that you presumably follow this form of logic in all domains of your life I am sure you have never bought a lottery ticket. Also, perhaps you've never heard of (virtually all Catholic, no atheist) palliative care services, which are there precisely to comfort a person who is dying, ease their passing?

Is there a God gene that makes some people more likely to be religious than others?

(02-08-2018 10:09 AM)Piankhi Wrote:  Is there a God gene that makes some people more likely to be religious than others?

Yes it's related to intelligence too!

(02-08-2018 09:57 AM)Paracelsus Wrote:  someone who deliberately shortens his path to heaven solely because he thinks he'll get the eternal reward that much faster is someone who is shot through with greed and an overblown sense of entitlement.

Thats arse about, surely someone who has cancer (through gods will) is due the eternal reward when that cancer claims him. Seeking treatment is going against gods will!

At the very least he shouldn't be in trouble for not seeking treatment and getting the paradise ticket earlier!

Anyway, you take my point, desperately seeking a slim chance of a cure, enduring a horrific treatment - instead of taking the ticket to glory and paradise strait up - comes across as evidence of a deep acceptance of the finality of life, and absence of afterlife - well in my opinion anyway.

(02-07-2018 10:10 PM)Super_Fire Wrote:  

(02-07-2018 08:52 PM)RatInTheWoods Wrote:  

(02-07-2018 01:46 AM)advik78 Wrote:  All the great men of all time have believed in God as someone who wants to be great, yes I believe in God and you should to.

The question is, with so many god, demigods, spirits and religious on offer, how can you pick one that suits your needs?

Should I go for the one with the hottest chicks? Closest temples?

Best afterlife rewards and least effort to worship?

Or pick something obscure to be real cool?

Being atheist is just easier than making all those difficult decisions!

Easy, become Catholic.

Buddhists have the slimmer chicks, can't I run with that menu option?

(02-09-2018 07:56 PM)RatInTheWoods Wrote:  

(02-07-2018 10:10 PM)Super_Fire Wrote:  

(02-07-2018 08:52 PM)RatInTheWoods Wrote:  

(02-07-2018 01:46 AM)advik78 Wrote:  All the great men of all time have believed in God as someone who wants to be great, yes I believe in God and you should to.

The question is, with so many god, demigods, spirits and religious on offer, how can you pick one that suits your needs?

Should I go for the one with the hottest chicks? Closest temples?

Best afterlife rewards and least effort to worship?

Or pick something obscure to be real cool?

Being atheist is just easier than making all those difficult decisions!

Easy, become Catholic.

Buddhists have the slimmer chicks, can't I run with that menu option?

We got Catholics out here too.

Truth be told most actual Buddhist girls in non-SEA are grannies or kooks.

(02-08-2018 10:09 AM)Piankhi Wrote:  Is there a God gene that makes some people more likely to be religious than others?

The psychologist William James believed that people are attracted to different religious practices dependant on their personality. For example, evangelical Christians are highly emotional, and their religious worship revolves around music. Someone who is analytical may be more attracted to something like Buddhism. I grew up in Christianity but it has never made any sense to me nor ever given me any comfort ever. Religious people talk about mystical experience. The only time I have these experiences of awe and wonder is when I read a science book. People should just choose what works for them. The old rule of etiquette was that religion is a taboo subject in public. For example, you never talk about religion at a party. This probably makes sense because the differences are irreconcilable.

(02-12-2018 11:24 AM)Sherman Wrote:  I grew up in Christianity but it has never made any sense to me nor ever given me any comfort ever.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+1

Out of curiosity, has anyone here studied the story of divine mercy in Catholicism. To anyone who doesn't know what I'm talking about, Divine Mercy actually refers to the supposed appartition of Mary to 3 children in Fatima, Portugal and the diary of Sr. Faustina Kowalka and the papacy of John Paul 2. It is actually one of the few reasons I have decided to remain Catholic. I used to think the people who believed it were bat-shit crazy, but after reading a great deal about all of these three things, I have began to notice little details that didn't make sense to me and make me think they could be true after all. I don't have time to write in detail about either Sr. Kowalska or the Miracle at Fatima, but one example is the fact that John Paul 2 almost died from an assassination attempt on May 13. The apparition of Mary to the three children at Portugal also occurred on May 13. Supposedly, the 3rd secret of Fatima is that a bishop in white would be struck down. This would make sense since the only bishop who wears white is the pope. John Paul 2 claimed something along the lines that Mary was the only reason he survived. To me it seems like way to big of a coincidence that the two events would occur on the same day. If you don't believe me here are the wiki articles where you can verify the dates.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_John_...on_attempt
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Our_Lady_of_F%C3%A1tima

Also, when I was studying the life in depth of Sr. Kowalska, who is venerated as a saint in the Catholic Church, I noticed little details like the fact that she died exactly when she was 33 (the age Jesus died) As I was reading her diary, I noticed a section in which she claims that Warsaw would be destroyed due to the sin existing in the world. The diary was written shortly before her death in 1938, which means that it would be referring to Warsaw, which was destroyed in WW2. If you want to see where it is written in her diary, go to #39 on the left side of the text.

http://www.boziemilosrdenstvo.sk/download/diary.pdf

She says... "One day Jesus told me that He would cause a chastisement to fall upon the most beautiful
city in our country [probably Warsaw]. This chastisement would be that with which God had
punished Sodom and Gomorrah.[27] I saw the great wrath of God and a shudder pierced my
heart. I prayed in silence."

Either this nun who lived in Poland 11 decades ago predicted the destruction of Warsaw by chance, or someone fabricated the entire diary.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faustina_Kowalska -- Saint Fausinta wiki


Am I crazy and falling prey to my own confirmation bias, or am I actually onto something???? I'd be interested to see what you guys think...

(02-12-2018 11:24 AM)Sherman Wrote:  

(02-08-2018 10:09 AM)Piankhi Wrote:  Is there a God gene that makes some people more likely to be religious than others?

The psychologist William James believed that people are attracted to different religious practices dependant on their personality. For example, evangelical Christians are highly emotional, and their religious worship revolves around music. Someone who is analytical may be more attracted to something like Buddhism. I grew up in Christianity but it has never made any sense to me nor ever given me any comfort ever. Religious people talk about mystical experience. The only time I have these experiences of awe and wonder is when I read a science book. People should just choose what works for them. The old rule of etiquette was that religion is a taboo subject in public. For example, you never talk about religion at a party. This probably makes sense because the differences are irreconcilable.

No, I don't think there is a gene for it. No evidence of that has ever been found. Personality does not affect religious preference... otherwise those 95% Muslim countries would have lots of Buddhists and Evangelicals running around.

I was raised atheist. I'm a scientist by trade. If you truly read science books and feel awe and wonder, then you are simple minded. Whenever I read a science text what stands out most to me is what we do not know and what we potentially can never know. The second thing that strikes me each time is the perfection of the universe and how it seems inherently calibrated to our exact existence.

Fine tuning is such a serious issue that at this point I don't know a single serious atheist that doesn't subscribe to the Multi-Verse theory... which strikes me as ridiculous bullshit.

Everything I've experienced in life points to the idea that either you feel God or you don't. Right now both require belief in the fantastical.

(02-08-2018 10:09 AM)Piankhi Wrote:  Is there a God gene that makes some people more likely to be religious than others?

I think religion originally came from imagination, and fear of the unknown. It then morphed into control mechanism (accept a shitty life now and get a reward when you die)

But it is mostly perpetrated in today's landscape by social and parental brainwashing. Young kids are brainwashed by parents, society and schools.

It's no accident that Saudi Arabia is all muslim, if you were born there, you are going to believe - you have no other choice really.

(02-13-2018 03:30 AM)EndsExpect Wrote:  Fine tuning is such a serious issue that at this point I don't know a single serious atheist that doesn't subscribe to the Multi-Verse theory... which strikes me as ridiculous bullshit.

I have always been amused by this kind of logic. If it didn't randomly turn out to be like it is, we would hardly be sitting here amazed at it would we?

It's a bit like rolling a billion sided dice, getting the number 2134242352 and saying "that must be god doing that, because the odds of rolling that can't be an accident!!"

And you just met a serious atheist that doesn't subscribe to multi-verse theory... But ANY explanation that we dressed up monkeys come up with to explain how the fuck the universe happened ALL sound like ridiculous bullshit, especially religious explanations. Better to say "we have some ideas, but really no clue what the fuck is going on, and how all this shit happened!"

(02-12-2018 08:35 PM)Super_Fire Wrote:  

(02-12-2018 11:24 AM)Sherman Wrote:  I grew up in Christianity but it has never made any sense to me nor ever given me any comfort ever.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+1

I have seen so many filmed versions of the life of Jesus I don't even want to admit it.

That one, originally a mini-series that lasted a week, was by far the best of them all. A lot of excellent actors, (too many stars to list, check out imdb: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0075520/full...t_ov_st_sm), as well as script by Anthony Burgess, killer cinematography, directed by Franco Zeffirelli, and Jesus played by Robert Powell, possibly the most striking actor to ever play Jesus.



Burgess has some effective tricks in his script, combining scripture in scenes to make deeper points.

If you want to feel what it must have been like to experience Jesus, this is the one.

^^^My only real criticism of the series is that it goes a little soft on Judas, basically implying that he didn't mean to sell Jesus out.

Otherwise, nothing else comes close. If you can finish that series without being moved, then I don't know what to say.

Commented on this years ago.

Still do not, but I'd consider myself more of an agnostic now, and I don't hold any grudges.

I am extremely interested in religions and religious history, and I was raised in a very Christian family. Sunday school every week etc. However the more I educated myself the more dubious I became. Now I would say No, I do not believe in God. I am not sure what to believe in other then in myself most days.

As I have gotten older I also started to question God more and more. It was also easy for me to think of Christianity as being no different from other religions. Especially considering the fact that there is a great deal of mythology and cultural forces wrapped into Christianity like any other religion. I feel as if this is often the biggest problem nonbelievers have of religion in general. However, one thing I still can't reconcile is the fact that as I've exposed myself to more literature, the Christians have always come across to me as more intellectually authentic. Atheists on the other hand have always been less intellectually sound in their writing and much more frenetic in their ideas. For example, Tolkien, C.S. Lewis, and G.K. Chesterton come off to me as being extremely brilliant, but Jean Paul Sartre, Nietzsche, and even modern atheists like Richard Dawkins come off to me as being almost juvenile in the way they express their ideas. Maybe I'm biased, but the difference between the first people I've mentioned and the second is light and day. Does anyone else feel the same way??

(02-13-2018 07:19 PM)RatInTheWoods Wrote:  

(02-13-2018 03:30 AM)EndsExpect Wrote:  Fine tuning is such a serious issue that at this point I don't know a single serious atheist that doesn't subscribe to the Multi-Verse theory... which strikes me as ridiculous bullshit.

I have always been amused by this kind of logic. If it didn't randomly turn out to be like it is, we would hardly be sitting here amazed at it would we?
It's a bit like rolling a billion sided dice, getting the number 2134242352 and saying "that must be god doing that, because the odds of rolling that can't be an accident!!"
And you just met a serious atheist that doesn't subscribe to multi-verse theory... But ANY explanation that we dressed up monkeys come up with to explain how the fuck the universe happened ALL sound like ridiculous bullshit, especially religious explanations. Better to say "we have some ideas, but really no clue what the fuck is going on, and how all this shit happened!"

I've considered this side of the argument as well. The general argument being that life on earth evolved the way it did because the physical rules in place required it to be so. Douglas Adams put forth something similar in his Puddle Theory.

Puddle Theory fails to be satisfactory because we now know that if you roll a billion sided dice, you are going to have to roll it a near infinite number of times in order to hit the combination required to create life. Not carbon based life, but life in general. If you consider the idea the the core function of life is decreasing entropy... then this should be found in more places than just earth... and it should be done by more than just carbon based organisms on earth.

This is why very smart people subscribe to multi-verse and also to Top Down Cosmology... which has it's merits.

What I have seen of the world is this. If you are like my father and you read exclusively science, then you believe exclusively in science. If you exclusively read holy texts, then you will believe exclusively in holy texts. I read both, and I believe in both, and they don't conflict. I think the world would be better if more atheists and religious people seriously studied and considered each others understanding of the world.

(02-14-2018 01:46 AM)Vasily Zaytsev Wrote:  As I have gotten older I also started to question God more and more. It was also easy for me to think of Christianity as being no different from other religions. Especially considering the fact that there is a great deal of mythology and cultural forces wrapped into Christianity like any other religion. I feel as if this is often the biggest problem nonbelievers have of religion in general. However, one thing I still can't reconcile is the fact that as I've exposed myself to more literature, the Christians have always come across to me as more intellectually authentic. Atheists on the other hand have always been less intellectually sound in their writing and much more frenetic in their ideas. For example, Tolkien, C.S. Lewis, and G.K. Chesterton come off to me as being extremely brilliant, but Jean Paul Sartre, Nietzsche, and even modern atheists like Richard Dawkins come off to me as being almost juvenile in the way they express their ideas. Maybe I'm biased, but the difference between the first people I've mentioned and the second is light and day. Does anyone else feel the same way??

The atheist movement of the past took a very mocking sneering tone with religion, which is why Dawkins did stuff like his "Flying Spaghetti Monster" hypothesis.

This is something I have found to be true. Religious people unless they shelter themselves completely are at one point or another forced to confront atheist ideas. Most frequently this occurs during schooling. On the other hand Atheists almost never have to confront or learn Religious ideas. Most atheists don't know how to read the Bible or even bother to try.

You can't blame them either because most Christians don't know how to read the Bible either, or even bother to try.

I have 2 true pieces of hard earned wisdom I can share on this topic. The first is that any religion whose basic formula boils down to "Do X and receive Y" is bullshit. For example... "live a good life and then you earn heaven", "give money to the church and God will give you blessings". Keep this in mind always when listening to religious leaders.

The second is this... You cannot read the Bible as you would read a history text. The Bible is poetry and allusion, it was never meant to be a scientific text. For example... if you actually read the creation story you will find that it is trying to tell you the natural order of things, not the exact time space or method in which God created the universe. If you read it carefully you will actually see two creation stories side by side. Each of the stories is telling the reader something different in allegory.

Christopher Hitchens once said everybody is an atheist. An atheist to other peoples gods. No one believes in Zeus and Hera. Christians dont believe Allah and Muslims dont believe Christ is god.