Post: #326

So let's get this right, the Greece government is now itself hoping to pass a deal which is just as bad at the one it got a No referendum vote on a couple of weeks ago. So the government is clearly and deliberately doing the opposite of the will of it's people. I'm guess the EU has promised special benefits to Tsipras and his colleagues in exchange for betraying their own country.

Sounds ripe for a revolution.

Post: #327

Question for those with more knowledge of the EU governance.

So Greece submitted their plan today, Greek parliament votes on it tomorrow, the governing body of the EU votes on it Sunday, but then do individual EU nation parliaments have to vote to approve it? Or is it a done deal if it's approved on Sunday?

Post: #328

(07-09-2015 11:38 PM)Mike5055 Wrote:  Question for those with more knowledge of the EU governance.

So Greece submitted their plan today, Greek parliament votes on it tomorrow, the governing body of the EU votes on it Sunday, but then do individual EU nation parliaments have to vote to approve it? Or is it a done deal if it's approved on Sunday?

Only some of the European parliaments have to vote on it, but all of the governments have to approve it.

EDIT: According to Credit Suisse Bank:

Post: #329

What the fuck is wrong with Tsipras and Syriza? Do they use a random number generator for making decisions?

Post: #330

(07-10-2015 01:08 AM)Handsome Creepy Eel Wrote:  What the fuck is wrong with Tsipras and Syriza? Do they use a random number generator for making decisions?

Quote:Robert Greene's Laws of Power:

Law 17: Keep others in suspended terror -- cultivate an air of unpredictability.

Law 21: Play a sucker to catch a sucker --- seem dumber than your mark.

Law 22: Use the surrender tactic -- turn weakness into power.

Law 37: Create compelling spectacles.

Law 45: Preach the need for change, but never reform too much at once.

Tsipras is playing the game of power. He might not be playing it terribly well, but this is a world leader who has half the EU waiting with bated breath on his announcements, a guy who has Obama calling him begging him not to blow up a continent's financial stability, a man who has singlehandedly made himself more of a threat to European cohesion than Putin's entire war machine. The very fact you can't predict what he's going to do next is a potent method of playing for time, although the only reason I suspect he's doing it is so he can get his own post-political career in order.

Post: #331

(07-09-2015 10:06 PM)Phoenix Wrote:  So let's get this right, the Greece government is now itself hoping to pass a deal which is just as bad at the one it got a No referendum vote on a couple of weeks ago.

very true but they actually got a bit of a haircut on the debt (which in my opinion is absolutely mandatory, otherwise they are right back where they started next debt payment).

(07-09-2015 10:06 PM)Phoenix Wrote:  So the government is clearly and deliberately doing the opposite of the will of it's people. I'm guess the EU has promised special benefits to Tsipras and his colleagues in exchange for betraying their own country.

Sounds ripe for a revolution.

Sure looks that way. For Chrissake the EU is not talking about sending in "humanitarian supplies."

Meanwhile Syriza is champing at the bit to given citizenship to even more 3rd world illegals apparently in spite of the nightmare situation their country is undergoing (?). It just isn't working there and they at a minimum need to get out of the Euro eventually and then revamp their entire economy and political structure. But it feels like it will start to get more autocratic first.

And to be sure, "democracies" in Europe and North America have definitely been going against the will and interests of their people for decades now, it's just amplifying and getting worse as these societies decay.

Post: #332

(07-10-2015 01:49 AM)Akula Wrote:  Meanwhile Syriza is champing at the bit to given citizenship to even more 3rd world illegals apparently in spite of the nightmare situation their country is undergoing (?).

Citizens can vote, and usually do for the party that makes them citizens to begin with. Also see: Latino voting preferences, and why the Democrats are so hell-bent on citizenship for illegal immigrants.

Post: #333

There is no voting yourself out of anything. The Greek politicians just like most of the world have the same owners, thus you literally voting for Apparatchnik 1 or Apparatchnik 2 in a Soviet Style System.

It looks as if the EU with the EMS is taking over, more austerity is coming and step by step the EU is gaining control of Greek finances until there is literally not much for them to do except decide whether they want yellow or blue flowers planted in front of the parliament.

Post: #334

EU just released its message to Greece regarding debt relief and ending austerity:

Post: #335

(07-10-2015 01:20 AM)Paracelsus Wrote:  

(07-10-2015 01:08 AM)Handsome Creepy Eel Wrote:  What the fuck is wrong with Tsipras and Syriza? Do they use a random number generator for making decisions?

Quote:Robert Greene's Laws of Power:

Law 17: Keep others in suspended terror -- cultivate an air of unpredictability.

Law 21: Play a sucker to catch a sucker --- seem dumber than your mark.

Law 22: Use the surrender tactic -- turn weakness into power.

Law 37: Create compelling spectacles.

Law 45: Preach the need for change, but never reform too much at once.

Tsipras is playing the game of power. He might not be playing it terribly well, but this is a world leader who has half the EU waiting with bated breath on his announcements, a guy who has Obama calling him begging him not to blow up a continent's financial stability, a man who has singlehandedly made himself more of a threat to European cohesion than Putin's entire war machine. The very fact you can't predict what he's going to do next is a potent method of playing for time, although the only reason I suspect he's doing it is so he can get his own post-political career in order.

The only thing they want to do is play the blame game. That's the only thing they are prepared to do.
It is very likely the deal will be voted against by EU, so he will blame the troika and the Germans for not voting against "a fair proposal".
Tomorrow the deal has to be voted in greek parliament, and that... that one is going to be fun. The hard Syriza (remember coalition of leftheaded parties and nutjobs) and Golden Dawn will vote against, the opposition will vote for the deal.

Post: #336

As I predicted earlier. Greece isn't going anywhere. The EU is a one way club just as the USA. Once you join you're in it for the long haul. European leaders don't want to break up the EU and most citizens in the EU are generally split about it. The poor countries of Europe will be like the poor states of the US or the poorer states of Brazil and other federal nations, constantly under the watchful financial eye of the old city elites. I guess it's still better than endless wars over resources, territory, and ethnicity.

Post: #337

(07-10-2015 09:26 AM)DjembaDjemba Wrote:  As I predicted earlier. Greece isn't going anywhere. The EU is a one way club just as the USA. Once you join you're in it for the long haul. European leaders don't want to break up the EU and most citizens in the EU are generally split about it. The poor countries of Europe will be like the poor states of the US or the poorer states of Brazil and other federal nations, constantly under the watchful financial eye of the old city elites. I guess it's still better than endless wars over resources, territory, and ethnicity.

The war is still coming, all this has done is postponed it to another day.

Also now Italy, Spain, and Portugal know they don't need to pay any debts because Germany will just bail them out. The EU is a laughable failure.

Post: #338

On the contrary, the EU is serving its purpose. Can you imagine the chaos if Europe wasnt united? If there we no ECB? The whole idea of the EU was to create peace and stability on the continent, and if certain member states needed a hand they would be helped so they don't have to go to war after a recession or depression.

It's quite common for richer states in unions to support poorer ones, to the benefit of both. In Canada the central provinces have supported the poorer maritime provinces for decades. It created a stability you can't otherwise get. I know very well the EU is unpopular around these parts but it's doing exactly what it was designed to do. Europe cant afford anymore balkan or yugoslav type wars, paying a bunch of money to incompetents is cheaper than a continent constantly at war with itself like in the past. Wars fuck up trade routes and lower everyone's collective standard of living.

Post: #339

Tsipras and Syriza come off as idiots promising everything for nothing. I'd love to see them gutted from their foolishness.

Post: #340

So, assuming it makes it out of the Greek parliament, will Germany accept the new deal?

Post: #341

And yet there is no force more potent than nationalism. Groups of rich and middle-class citizens are willing to support poor citizens within their own country but not within a multi-state structure such as the EU - unless it is self-serving on a nationalistic level (e.g. USA propping up Europe to serve its own interests in Cold War against Soviet Union)

Post: #342

(07-10-2015 10:22 AM)DjembaDjemba Wrote:  On the contrary, the EU is serving its purpose. Can you imagine the chaos if Europe wasnt united? If there we no ECB? The whole idea of the EU was to create peace and stability on the continent, and if certain member states needed a hand they would be helped so they don't have to go to war after a recession or depression.

It's quite common for richer states in unions to support poorer ones, to the benefit of both. In Canada the central provinces have supported the poorer maritime provinces for decades. It created a stability you can't otherwise get. I know very well the EU is unpopular around these parts but it's doing exactly what it was designed to do. Europe cant afford anymore balkan or yugoslav type wars, paying a bunch of money to incompetents is cheaper than a continent constantly at war with itself like in the past. Wars fuck up trade routes and lower everyone's collective standard of living.

They'll run out of money bro, and then the fighting starts. It's impossible to bail out poorer states/provinces/cities indefinitely. Simple laws of entropy here.

Post: #343

(07-10-2015 04:26 PM)Samseau Wrote:  

(07-10-2015 10:22 AM)DjembaDjemba Wrote:  On the contrary, the EU is serving its purpose. Can you imagine the chaos if Europe wasnt united? If there we no ECB? The whole idea of the EU was to create peace and stability on the continent, and if certain member states needed a hand they would be helped so they don't have to go to war after a recession or depression.

It's quite common for richer states in unions to support poorer ones, to the benefit of both. In Canada the central provinces have supported the poorer maritime provinces for decades. It created a stability you can't otherwise get. I know very well the EU is unpopular around these parts but it's doing exactly what it was designed to do. Europe cant afford anymore balkan or yugoslav type wars, paying a bunch of money to incompetents is cheaper than a continent constantly at war with itself like in the past. Wars fuck up trade routes and lower everyone's collective standard of living.

They'll run out of money bro, and then the fighting starts. It's impossible to bail out poorer states/provinces/cities indefinitely. Simple laws of entropy here.

I'm sure the Greeks will purposely egg on a war with Germany.

They're sly little bastards. They know they won't be able to stay in the Eurozone much longer, so they're going to get as many Euros as possible in the meantime.

But even if they pull out of the zone, they'll still stay in the union. I really can't envision any scenario of an inter-european war. Nobody in Europe has the balls for it.

Post: #344

(07-10-2015 10:22 AM)DjembaDjemba Wrote:  On the contrary, the EU is serving its purpose. Can you imagine the chaos if Europe wasnt united? If there we no ECB? The whole idea of the EU was to create peace and stability on the continent, and if certain member states needed a hand they would be helped so they don't have to go to war after a recession or depression.

The EU was fine without the Euro and overruling sovereign parliaments. The sheer volume of corruption and an attitude to boot is what irks the likes of the United Kingdom and now the southern states.

Germany tried twice to take over Europe and failed so they're trying economics and they got it. Pretty hilarious actually. All in the name of European solidarity.

I'm not sure about you but Europe is a mixture of many peoples and cultures and what works in one country doesn't necessarily work in another. If that was true then the whole of South America should be united under a single flag by now and the same goes for the Middle East and Asia.

All of this is for bankers and their cohorts to get even richer.

Post: #345

(07-10-2015 10:38 AM)The Beast1 Wrote:  Tsipras and Syriza come off as idiots promising everything for nothing. I'd love to see them gutted from their foolishness.

I think the referendum gave Tsipras a mandate go get a better deal, but no mandate of whether Greece should leave the Eurozone. But the thing is more complex because the Greece government has to pay the loan to the European Central Bank that they borrowed through the European Stability Mechanism. That is due in couple of days, and without any payment Greece's banking system would basically evaporate from existence along with the economy. It's quite a difficult situation to be in. But still they will need some kind of haircut from creditors because the economy is in worse shape than 2 weeks ago.

Post: #346

(07-10-2015 04:35 PM)Chick Magnet Wrote:  

(07-10-2015 04:26 PM)Samseau Wrote:  

(07-10-2015 10:22 AM)DjembaDjemba Wrote:  On the contrary, the EU is serving its purpose. Can you imagine the chaos if Europe wasnt united? If there we no ECB? The whole idea of the EU was to create peace and stability on the continent, and if certain member states needed a hand they would be helped so they don't have to go to war after a recession or depression.

It's quite common for richer states in unions to support poorer ones, to the benefit of both. In Canada the central provinces have supported the poorer maritime provinces for decades. It created a stability you can't otherwise get. I know very well the EU is unpopular around these parts but it's doing exactly what it was designed to do. Europe cant afford anymore balkan or yugoslav type wars, paying a bunch of money to incompetents is cheaper than a continent constantly at war with itself like in the past. Wars fuck up trade routes and lower everyone's collective standard of living.

They'll run out of money bro, and then the fighting starts. It's impossible to bail out poorer states/provinces/cities indefinitely. Simple laws of entropy here.

I'm sure the Greeks will purposely egg on a war with Germany.

They're sly little bastards. They know they won't be able to stay in the Eurozone much longer, so they're going to get as many Euros as possible in the meantime.

But even if they pull out of the zone, they'll still stay in the union. I really can't envision any scenario of an inter-european war. Nobody in Europe has the balls for it.

They won't be fighting Germany, they'll be fighting each other. Germany isn't going to care, there won't be anything in it for them. It's the ordinary Greeks who will be pissed off about what direction their country should go in who will be doing the killing.

Post: #347

(07-10-2015 10:22 AM)DjembaDjemba Wrote:  On the contrary, the EU is serving its purpose. Can you imagine the chaos if Europe wasnt united? If there we no ECB? The whole idea of the EU was to create peace and stability on the continent, and if certain member states needed a hand they would be helped so they don't have to go to war after a recession or depression.

It's quite common for richer states in unions to support poorer ones, to the benefit of both. In Canada the central provinces have supported the poorer maritime provinces for decades. ...

You are missing several big points there friend. A poorer province shares the same people and economic model. Almost every country on earth has those. That is like comparing cities with the woods of a country - of course the economic output of the woods is minimal compared to a city.

All the European countries would NOT BE IN THE SAME SITUATION, if they had not joined the EU. The EU annex and Euro brought unprecedented expansion of credit as even the EU financial aid is tied with equal debt expansion (usually you don't get more than 50% of total cost of a project). In addition countries like Italy or Greece have been devaluing their currencies occasionally since decades, thus increasing the attractiveness of their tourist locations and raising their international competitiveness. Greece would neither have the debt ratio nor the the debt crisis that they have now without the EU or Euro. Most people do not even know that most of the debt now has been catapulted just by over-the-top interest payments:



Do you think that the additional 100 billion Euro in debt in the last few years was due to some Greek spending? No - it was just the markets demanding massive usurous debt. At the HIGHEST POINT THE INTEREST RATES OF GREEK BONDS WERE ALMOST 50%!!! 50% interest for a loan - that is what Don Corleone would charge you.

The EU was and is a con. You can only converge countries which are similar in industrialization, wage structure, tax structure, cost basis. Some Western European countries would have fit the bill, but Portugal, Spain, Italy, Greece and all Eastern European countries would not.

Back when the EU was voted upon in some EU countries I did not see it that way. I was completely brainwashed by my mainstream economic education. I thought that it was good. It was not - for multiple reasons - too many to elaborate here. And the people I talked to who campaigned against the EU - they were right, maybe they did not know the full picture, but their gut told them that it was a bad idea.

Post: #348

Surprisingly enough, Paul Krugman who is often reviled around here for being a leftist/socialist/keynesian was and still is one of the most vocal critics of the Eurozone and its ridiculous handling of the crisis, and has predicted everything exactly the way it would unfold many years ago.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/16/magazi...-home&_r=0

Post: #349

Funny no one mentioned that the eurocrats have raised their own skyhigh salaries over the past few years while cutting down Greece pensions.

Post: #350

(07-11-2015 04:01 AM)michelin Wrote:  Funny no one mentioned that the eurocrats have raised their own skyhigh salaries over the past few years while cutting down Greece pensions.

Yes - it is a great thing to work for the EU. Most people also don't know that they are free from income tax and most additional payments. That means that making 200.000$ is net. I knew someone who worked for the EU already 20 years ago. Things have only become better recently.