(06-30-2015 06:26 PM)Carboneraser Wrote: My friend (from greece) mentioned that the unemployment rate is over 50% or something but that there doesn't seem to be as much violence or protest as would be expected.
Hopefully this doesn't turn into a civil war and it's only the economy that takes a hit.
Good time to use the dollar though!
Civil war? Against and for what? They spend more than they make/earn/worth.
The last time I was there. I could not believe how the lifestyle is possible. I was thinking I have to work all day??
I remember this one lady latching on to my travels ( distant relative) said she was on holiday and would like to stop at some islands. Ok.. She goes back to northern Greece after a month of moving around then like a week later she's back in Athens ready for another trip. I asked about her job and she was like I'm on holiday again.
I ended up ( have no idea how or why) in some village called eng sp. lootza. Seen her again.
Worked at a shop in Ano Glyfada ( Athens) with my buddy cause I was tired of being lazy for free.. We drank beer all day and never fixed anything. He said everyone is used to it and it'll get done sooner or later..
I was heckling some construction workers in Piraeus one day asking them how long what they were doing should actually take ( cement on sidewalk) they smoked and drank frappes all day never came back after lunch siesta or whatev they call it.
I really want to see how this plays out. I'm really thinking about going there this summer to break balls at a nuclear scale.
Everyone is lazy because they've been coasting on debt money to pay for their lifestyles, now it's time to repay those old debts.
The new Drachma will be one of the most worthless currencies in the world, reflecting all of the unpaid debts, and these Greeks will be forced to provide real value again or go back to the starvation line.
I say 70% chance Golden Dawn takes over, because they will have the most fighters loyal to the cause and if they can secure a loan then they will be able to employ people.
"70 % chance of a Golden Dawn take over.... Everyone is lazy because they've been coasting on debt money to pay for their lifestyles, now it's time to repay those old debts..."
Greeks work hard and thrive in all corners of the globe. A nation of 11 million people control some 20% of the world shipping. Why? Because it is the one area of commerce that the government hasn't tried to regulate and tax to death. In the U.S, Canada, South Africa the UK and Australia they prosper. Again why? Because the governments there allow them to do so.
No one is more aware of the insidious effects of clientelist politics than the Greeks in Greece themselves. The reasons the system evolved this way are complex and outside the scope of this post. But to characterize Greeks as lazy is in itself intellectually dishonest and, dare I say, lazy.
I like your posts, and from what I've read you come across as a standup guy, so I'm not trying to start a flame, but your understanding of the situation is very, very shallow. I see you are from the U.S. Tell me, did the powers that be ask YOU or your family before they ran up $18 Trillion dollars in debt? Reflect on those figures and tell me if you think your country's financial position is tenable. Greece is just the canary in the coal mine. At least when the shit hits the fan there, they have a homogeneous ethnic group who will pull together and survive one way or another. Greece is as old as time and will never die.
As the poet Odysseas Elytis wrote
"If Greece is entirely destroyed an olive tree, a vine and a boat will remain. They are enough to rebuild her from the ashes."
(06-30-2015 06:15 AM)Zelcorpion Wrote: In history there have been many movements which banned usury and sometimes kings threw out of the country certain groups which mainly transacted that business. (To be fair there was more going on at that time, but this was a major point).
Besides - it's not a Jewish thing to charge interest. There is a large and strong usury-free movement in Israel and there was even a debate on that point in the Knesset - something that went 10 times further than in any country in recent history except for Iceland.
The Book of Ezekiel condemns the Israelite elite from extracting usury and not observing the year of Jubilee when all slaves and debtors were released. The year of Jubilee held that sooner or later all debts can never be repaid. Its failure to repent from usury and the worship of the Canaanite Baals and Ashoreths were the reasons Babylon took them captive.
Ezekiel 18:13 Wrote:Lends at interest, and takes profit; shall he then live? He shall not live. He has done all these abominations; he shall surely die; his blood shall be upon himself.
It is a great tragedy that Christendom/ West has forgotten that usury used to be seen as the worst of all sin.
(This post was last modified: 06-30-2015 11:43 PM by N°6.)
(06-29-2015 04:08 AM)MaleDefined Wrote: I will be in Greece in 9 days. Lovely.
I'll be withdrawing and carrying Euros in prior to arrival. Any other pieces of advice I should heed?
You have actually picked a fantastic time to visit. There will be fewer tourists now, which always translates into better treatment for the ones that are there; plus better gaming options. According to my cousin who owns two hotels in Nafplio, June has been a bad month with many cancellations. Except for the hassle of closed banks, potentially empty ATM's and being surrounded by locals on a knife-edge, I suspect you will have a good time. I will be flying from Bangkok to Athens for the referendum on Sunday ignoring my father's advice to stay away but he is a typical older Greek (paranoid fatalists who believe everything is a conspiracy).
(06-30-2015 08:20 PM)Samseau Wrote: Everyone is lazy because they've been coasting on debt money to pay for their lifestyles, now it's time to repay those old debts.
Yeah - that goes too far. The Greek economy is ineffective for some parts, but I have family members living there and they work long hours - transportation business and agriculture.
What El Mech witnessed were likely state funded projects - road improvement (car mechanics are another topic there) etc.
And the debt is in the least degree generated by the common people. Now the majority of it is compound interest, big projects that only the wealthy profited off and to a small degree transfer payments that went beyond the productivity of the people. That amount is likely less than 5% of the entire debt if at all.
It is tantamount to claiming that welfare recipients in the US are responsible for the trillions in US debt. All those payments are ridiculously low in comparison to usury, military budget, big projects for useless "stimulus" etc. The government sometimes had 2 trillion here and there "lost" and unaccounted for, while the entire student debt of the country is one trillion. I wish, they would have lost that amount, but they are always losing account of numbers which they only profit from and not the common people.
Yes - Greece is partly ineffective and partly highly industrious - shipping, tourism, some educational fields etc. The political & taxation system there however is on a corruption scale not seen anywhere else in Europe except for southern Italy. The Greek who emigrated around the world have no trouble succeeding in their new countries, which is a sign that the people there are just lacking an effective system. You cannot expect bountiful harvests in shitty soils.
(06-30-2015 06:26 PM)Carboneraser Wrote: My friend (from greece) mentioned that the unemployment rate is over 50% or something but that there doesn't seem to be as much violence or protest as would be expected.
Hopefully this doesn't turn into a civil war and it's only the economy that takes a hit.
Good time to use the dollar though!
Civil war? Against and for what? They spend more than they make/earn/worth.
The last time I was there. I could not believe how the lifestyle is possible. I was thinking I have to work all day??
I remember this one lady latching on to my travels ( distant relative) said she was on holiday and would like to stop at some islands. Ok.. She goes back to northern Greece after a month of moving around then like a week later she's back in Athens ready for another trip. I asked about her job and she was like I'm on holiday again.
I ended up ( have no idea how or why) in some village called eng sp. lootza. Seen her again.
Worked at a shop in Ano Glyfada ( Athens) with my buddy cause I was tired of being lazy for free.. We drank beer all day and never fixed anything. He said everyone is used to it and it'll get done sooner or later..
I was heckling some construction workers in Piraeus one day asking them how long what they were doing should actually take ( cement on sidewalk) they smoked and drank frappes all day never came back after lunch siesta or whatev they call it.
I really want to see how this plays out. I'm really thinking about going there this summer to break balls at a nuclear scale.
Everyone is lazy because they've been coasting on debt money to pay for their lifestyles, now it's time to repay those old debts.
The new Drachma will be one of the most worthless currencies in the world, reflecting all of the unpaid debts, and these Greeks will be forced to provide real value again or go back to the starvation line.
I say 70% chance Golden Dawn takes over, because they will have the most fighters loyal to the cause and if they can secure a loan then they will be able to employ people.
"70 % chance of a Golden Dawn take over.... Everyone is lazy because they've been coasting on debt money to pay for their lifestyles, now it's time to repay those old debts..."
Greeks work hard and thrive in all corners of the globe. A nation of 11 million people control some 20% of the world shipping. Why? Because it is the one area of commerce that the government hasn't tried to regulate and tax to death. In the U.S, Canada, South Africa the UK and Australia they prosper. Again why? Because the governments there allow them to do so.
No one is more aware of the insidious effects of clientelist politics than the Greeks in Greece themselves. The reasons the system evolved this way are complex and outside the scope of this post. But to characterize Greeks as lazy is in itself intellectually dishonest and, dare I say, lazy.
I like your posts, and from what I've read you come across as a standup guy, so I'm not trying to start a flame, but your understanding of the situation is very, very shallow. I see you are from the U.S. Tell me, did the powers that be ask YOU or your family before they ran up $18 Trillion dollars in debt? Reflect on those figures and tell me if you think your country's financial position is tenable. Greece is just the canary in the coal mine. At least when the shit hits the fan there, they have a homogeneous ethnic group who will pull together and survive one way or another. Greece is as old as time and will never die.
As the poet Odysseas Elytis wrote
"If Greece is entirely destroyed an olive tree, a vine and a boat will remain. They are enough to rebuild her from the ashes."
(07-01-2015 01:45 AM)Zelcorpion Wrote:
(06-30-2015 08:20 PM)Samseau Wrote: Everyone is lazy because they've been coasting on debt money to pay for their lifestyles, now it's time to repay those old debts.
Yeah - that goes too far. The Greek economy is ineffective for some parts, but I have family members living there and they work long hours - transportation business and agriculture.
What El Mech witnessed were likely state funded projects - road improvement (car mechanics are another topic there) etc.
And the debt is in the least degree generated by the common people. Now the majority of it is compound interest, big projects that only the wealthy profited off and to a small degree transfer payments that went beyond the productivity of the people. That amount is likely less than 5% of the entire debt if at all.
It is tantamount to claiming that welfare recipients in the US are responsible for the trillions in US debt. All those payments are ridiculously low in comparison to usury, military budget, big projects for useless "stimulus" etc. The government sometimes had 2 trillion here and there "lost" and unaccounted for, while the entire student debt of the country is one trillion. I wish, they would have lost that amount, but they are always losing account of numbers which they only profit from and not the common people.
Yes - Greece is partly ineffective and partly highly industrious - shipping, tourism, some educational fields etc. The political & taxation system there however is on a corruption scale not seen anywhere else in Europe except for southern Italy. The Greek who emigrated around the world have no trouble succeeding in their new countries, which is a sign that the people there are just lacking an effective system. You cannot expect bountiful harvests in shitty soils.
Both of you guys fail to consider that not taking care of your government is lazy. Standing idly and voting for ever more benefits (Syriza got in with over 50% of the vote) is lazy.
Most Americans are lazy as well, no different than the Greeks. The entire Western world suffers from people who vote for their endless benefits at the expense of everyone else.
Zelcorpian, although welfare payments are low, the facts are:
- Welfare makes people lazy and fat
- The politicians who promise welfare are usually the worst pieces of shit who will run scam deals in the background to run up government spending in other areas. Huge unsustainable pensions, make-work government jobs, etc.
Americans are super lazy who've lost their civic virtue, 80% of the jobs in America are bullshit and provide no value. People who voted for Obama are lazy, just like the Greeks who believe they can have free shit on debt forever.
Contributor at Return of Kings. I got banned from twatter, which is run by little bitches and weaklings. You can follow me on Gab.
Be sure to check out the easiest mining program around, FreedomXMR.
The liberals are out in force to blame this on anything but the failure of socialism.
Quote:The country has so many mounting debts, it hasn't even been able to pay for medicine since last year. So, if you're a Greek cancer patient looking for chemo, take it up with the German banks - Chris Hayes
Yes Chris, let's vilify the Germans who were nice enough to give Greece a second, third, fourth and fifth chance. Also, love his smart girl glasses.
“The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money."
― Margaret Thatcher
(This post was last modified: 07-01-2015 02:59 PM by Captainstabbin.)
(07-01-2015 02:58 PM)Captainstabbin Wrote: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money."
― Margaret Thatcher
That and leftists don't recognize that the wealthy have exited many of their stock positions and moved into safe investments that can't be touched by central banks: art, rare books, etc. These things hold tons of value and can be resold when the financial reset finally comes (and it's coming). The market is speaking right now, which is why we see the price of art soaring (leftists call it a bubble, but that's because they refuse to recognize the effects of their socialistic QE attempt).
QE was intended to help the borrowers (by taking from savers). Yet economics is driven by unintended consequences and those are showing that the poor will be hurt by QE. The only thing that will ever even wealth inequality is making it easier to compete against those in power (ie: eliminate bureaucracy). But leftists need bureaucracy to maintain their power, so all their policies to help, will only hurt and make the situation worse.
Greece is a great example of how the average person is going to get slaughtered.
(07-01-2015 04:21 PM)SunW Wrote: These things hold tons of value and can be resold when the financial reset finally comes (and it's coming).
SunW, I know no one has a crystal ball, but when do you think this reset is coming and will it be worse than 2008? Mainly just looking out for my parents who are older. My dad can sure buy/pic a stock but he can never seem to sell one.
Thanks.
Fate whispers to the warrior, "You cannot withstand the storm." And the warrior whispers back, "I am the storm."
Women and children can be careless, but not men - Don Corleone
(07-01-2015 04:21 PM)SunW Wrote: These things hold tons of value and can be resold when the financial reset finally comes (and it's coming).
SunW, I know no one has a crystal ball, but when do you think this reset is coming and will it be worse than 2008? Mainly just looking out for my parents who are older. My dad can sure buy/pic a stock but he can never seem to sell one.
Thanks.
Unfortunately, they're impossible to predict. The current central bank of the US (the Federal Reserve) was established in 1913, Bretton Woods was in 1944 and the US abandoned the gold-backed dollar in 1971. All of those were financial resets - or financial reorganizations. At least in the last century, it looked like every 30 years, but it's been over 30 years and we're due.
In my own opinion - and I could be very wrong - watching China is key. I predict that the reset, when it occurs, will shift power to China and the East, as Eastern countries don't have the massive debt levels that the US and Europe do (or, in Japan's case, they have a huge investment balance to offset their debt). But China, unlike the US, plays a long game and it's a VERY long game. They can't switch into the financial power right now, as it could de-stabilize what they've built, so they know that slowly is how it will be done. That means that the reset will probably occur in the next twenty five years, and I say that time frame because the older Chinese generation will be giving way to the younger Chinese generation, who I predict will be less patient with the US' recklessness.
I may be wrong and this prediction may not come true; for instance, China could end up in a war with Japan and then the United States lucks out again as the world super power because China and Japan go nuts on each other. History is full of surprises (who predicted the Mongolians would build their empire?).
07-01-2015 05:26 PM
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(07-01-2015 04:21 PM)SunW Wrote: These things hold tons of value and can be resold when the financial reset finally comes (and it's coming).
SunW, I know no one has a crystal ball, but when do you think this reset is coming and will it be worse than 2008? Mainly just looking out for my parents who are older. My dad can sure buy/pic a stock but he can never seem to sell one.
Thanks.
Unfortunately, they're impossible to predict. The current central bank of the US (the Federal Reserve) was established in 1913, Bretton Woods was in 1944 and the US abandoned the gold-backed dollar in 1971. All of those were financial resets - or financial reorganizations. At least in the last century, it looked like every 30 years, but it's been over 30 years and we're due.
In my own opinion - and I could be very wrong - watching China is key. I predict that the reset, when it occurs, will shift power to China and the East, as Eastern countries don't have the massive debt levels that the US and Europe do (or, in Japan's case, they have a huge investment balance to offset their debt). But China, unlike the US, plays a long game and it's a VERY long game. They can't switch into the financial power right now, as it could de-stabilize what they've built, so they know that slowly is how it will be done. That means that the reset will probably occur in the next twenty five years, and I say that time frame because the older Chinese generation will be giving way to the younger Chinese generation, who I predict will be less patient with the US' recklessness.
I may be wrong and this prediction may not come true; for instance, China could end up in a war with Japan and then the United States lucks out again as the world super power because China and Japan go nuts on each other. History is full of surprises (who predicted the Mongolians would build their empire?).
As far as I know, Japan has no significant military to go up against the Chinese. It's a reversal of what it was like earlier in the 20th Century when Japan had military superiority. It would be a pretty quick war.
07-02-2015 07:35 AM
RexImperator
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A war between China and Japan would suck the U.S. into it immediately.
If you look at the model of the collapse of the British Empire, they technically won WW1, but the war was so costly that it led to a swift decline which was completed by WW2, which they also won.
If only you knew how bad things really are.
07-02-2015 07:42 AM
The following 1 user Likes RexImperator's post:1 user Likes RexImperator's post YossariansRight
The important thing to remember...in Greece as in Iceland, the citizens never saw a penny of the "bailouts". Nor did the Greek or Icelandic governments.
All that loaned money went to banks and speculators. The debt got "dumped" on the people of Iceland and Greece, they were made into the chumps who then are supposed to live as debt slaves the rest of their lives to pay back money they never got.
This is the big game. Will it cause revolution and war? Of course it will. And Europe will be in flames, yet again.
No wonder all my Brit friends are dying to be rid of the Euro.
They want to stay in the euro but don't want austerity. That is a contradiction in terms since Germany is dead set against ending austerity and continuing to dole out bailout money.
If the Greeks were serious about leaving the euro and joining the BRICS, then they would have at least some leverage because they could tell the troika "take it or leave it" with respect to a deal...but that is not the case. The Greeks are basically saying "agree to our terms or we are going to commit economic suicide".
(This post was last modified: 07-02-2015 03:44 PM by Easy E.)
(07-02-2015 03:33 PM)MrLemon Wrote: The important thing to remember...in Greece as in Iceland, the citizens never saw a penny of the "bailouts". Nor did the Greek or Icelandic governments.
All that loaned money went to banks and speculators. The debt got "dumped" on the people of Iceland and Greece, they were made into the chumps who then are supposed to live as debt slaves the rest of their lives to pay back money they never got.
This is the big game. Will it cause revolution and war? Of course it will. And Europe will be in flames, yet again.
No wonder all my Brit friends are dying to be rid of the Euro.
Well, the everyday Greeks did benefit from the speculative boom before the euro crisis started. During the boom times, Greeks really liked being in the eurozone. Hell, even now the average Greek person on the street still doesn't want to leave the euro.
(This post was last modified: 07-02-2015 03:48 PM by Easy E.)
Every Greek citizen over the age of 18 is obligated to give $20 blowjobs to any non-Greek visitor who asks for it. The collected money must then be given to the government to pay debts.
Mainstream news as quotes of what is really going on? Why not just watch CNN and let them tell us what is REALLY GOING ON?
The only thing you can be sure when you read stuff like that is, that it is not the whole truth - by a long shot.
I was only trying to share an article with the RVF guys that I felt portrayed an accurate picture of the current negotiations and subsequent impasse. As for 'news' organizations in general, I would agree with you, mainstream media does a poor job. No surprise though because 'news' organizations have a political agenda or just want to sell more advertising. Anyway if anyone is interested they can read the ariticle. Btw I will be in Greece on Sunday to vote and if any unreported violence breaks out, I'll try to take some photos to post here.
(07-02-2015 04:04 PM)youngblazer Wrote: My solution to the Greek crisis -- blowjobs.
Every Greek citizen over the age of 18 is obligated to give $20 blowjobs to any non-Greek visitor who asks for it. The collected money must then be given to the government to pay debts.
They'll earn billions in no time.
I have a high warning right now but will be coming after you soon.
(07-02-2015 04:04 PM)youngblazer Wrote: My solution to the Greek crisis -- blowjobs.
Every Greek citizen over the age of 18 is obligated to give $20 blowjobs to any non-Greek visitor who asks for it. The collected money must then be given to the government to pay debts.
They'll earn billions in no time.
I have a high warning right now but will be coming after you soon.
(07-02-2015 04:04 PM)youngblazer Wrote: My solution to the Greek crisis -- blowjobs.
Every Greek citizen over the age of 18 is obligated to give $20 blowjobs to any non-Greek visitor who asks for it. The collected money must then be given to the government to pay debts.
They'll earn billions in no time.
The fuck is wrong with you?
(This post was last modified: 07-02-2015 09:15 PM by Col. Tigh.)
(07-01-2015 02:58 PM)Captainstabbin Wrote: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money."
― Margaret Thatcher
That and leftists don't recognize that the wealthy have exited many of their stock positions and moved into safe investments that can't be touched by central banks: art, rare books, etc. These things hold tons of value and can be resold when the financial reset finally comes (and it's coming). The market is speaking right now, which is why we see the price of art soaring (leftists call it a bubble, but that's because they refuse to recognize the effects of their socialistic QE attempt).
(07-01-2015 04:21 PM)SunW Wrote:
(07-01-2015 02:58 PM)Captainstabbin Wrote: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money."
― Margaret Thatcher
That and leftists don't recognize that the wealthy have exited many of their stock positions and moved into safe investments that can't be touched by central banks: art, rare books, etc. These things hold tons of value and can be resold when the financial reset finally comes (and it's coming). The market is speaking right now, which is why we see the price of art soaring (leftists call it a bubble, but that's because they refuse to recognize the effects of their socialistic QE attempt).
Actually the exact opposite has happened with equities. Most 1st-world governments are now hunting physical cash aggressively. Reporting requirements for wire transfers are now down to $3,000 in the US, Italy experimented with cash-sniffing dogs at the borders, and the US allows police to arbitrary seize large amounts of cash on the justification that it's suspected for "profits from drug trafficking".
The hunt for cash has pushed money into equities. Equities are risky in their own way, but they're harder to seize than physical cash (even if politicians didn't have huge equity holdings themselves) and they're not vulnerable to being lost in a "bail in". Another major advantage is that the tax rules are advantageous for equities(among others, there's no tax unless you pull them out at a profit).
That's why the US share market is so high in spite of all the turbulence.
(07-02-2015 03:42 PM)Easy E Wrote: The Greeks have zero leverage. Zip. Ziltch. Nada.
They want to stay in the euro but don't want austerity. That is a contradiction in terms since Germany is dead set against ending austerity and continuing to dole out bailout money.
If the Greeks were serious about leaving the euro and joining the BRICS, then they would have at least some leverage because they could tell the troika "take it or leave it" with respect to a deal...but that is not the case. The Greeks are basically saying "agree to our terms or we are going to commit economic suicide".
Sorry but I don't agree at all.
1. They've already had austerity for 5 years. Austerity has destroyed their economy and made the situation a thousand times worse.
2. They aren't threatening to "commit economic suicide". Economic suicide has been imposed from the outside by creditors. Every major economist in the world...every single one...has stated clearly that the "austerity" program is insane.
The reason the troika is refusing to budge has absolutely nothing to do with helping Greece. It's only about punishing Greece, and hiding the fact that some idiot banks made bad loans.
It may be that Greece has no leverage. They will just collapse and cause a revolution/war. That will destroy the EU more effectively than any single other cause in the world.
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