Post: #126

(06-29-2015 07:17 PM)Peregrine Wrote:  Glad to see guys like Phoenix ... get it, but I suspect they work in the industry.

Couldn't be further from the truth I just educate myself.

Post: #127

If you guys will travel to Greece in the near future, just like me, it is worth checking the Greece travel forum at TripAdvisor, locals write in it about the situation.

http://www.tripadvisor.com/ShowForum-g18...reece.html

Post: #128

I just think this is all for show.

A deal will be done.

The debt will be extended and at lowered terms...and will inflate away over 50 years or whatever.

The EU will kick the can...they always do...the show (grand project) must go on.

Post: #129

(06-30-2015 02:05 AM)Phoenix Wrote:  

(06-29-2015 07:17 PM)Peregrine Wrote:  Glad to see guys like Phoenix ... get it, but I suspect they work in the industry.

Couldn't be further from the truth I just educate myself.

I work in the industry and most of my friends who see it that way do too. Some buddies of mine are managers at corporations of entire Central European countries - and they see it my way after having looked at the issue.

Only because you make good money and profit from the system does not mean that you cannot perceive a superior way.

Post: #130

(06-30-2015 02:51 AM)CrashBangWallop Wrote:  I just think this is all for show.

A deal will be done.

The debt will be extended and at lowered terms...and will inflate away over 50 years or whatever.

The EU will kick the can...they always do...the show (grand project) must go on.

Certainly looks that way:

Quote:EU and Greek government sources said Jean-Claude Juncker had offered to convene an emergency meeting of euro zone finance ministers on Tuesday to approve an aid payment to prevent Athens defaulting, if Tsipras sent a written acceptance of the terms.

He also dangled the prospect of a negotiation on debt rescheduling later this year if Athens said "yes".

The last-ditch bid from Brussels came as uncertainty built ahead of Sunday's referendum, with a string of European leaders warning that it would effectively be a choice between remaining in the euro or reverting to the drachma.

Opinion polls show Greeks in favour of holding on to the euro but a rally of tens of thousands of anti-austerity protestors in Athens on Monday highlighted the defiance many in Greece feel about being pushed into a corner by the lenders.

c

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/06/3...EO20150630

The problem for the Greek of course is that an exit of the Eurozone would totally cripple them in the short term.

The people have no idea of the real alternatives and the politicians certainly won't be offering them.

The funny part is that if a referendum confirms the Euro, then the politicians have saved face, the EU will make concessions and it will be a continued intermediate consensus until the end goal is achieved of creating a European Finance Ministry.

Post: #131

(06-30-2015 02:49 AM)Glaucon Wrote:  If you guys will travel to Greece in the near future, just like me, it is worth checking the Greece travel forum at TripAdvisor, locals write in it about the situation.

http://www.tripadvisor.com/ShowForum-g18...reece.html

I'll give you a live update from Greece in ~10 days.

Post: #132

Quote:The charging of a flat fee for the lending of money is clearly better than placing the 'bond' of compound interest around the neck of the productive man. However, a read through the history of Renaissance Italy shows this was the thin edge that the Italian plutocrats used to get modest usury legalised by a hostile papacy.

If someone expects a fee of 50 dollars for lending you 1000 dollars for the year, how is that different from expecting 5% annually? No one would lend you 1MM for the same 50 dollars any more than they'd lend you their penthouse for the same price as a basement unit.

Zelcorpion Wrote:I work in the industry and most of my friends who see it that way do too. Some buddies of mine are managers at corporations of entire Central European countries - and they see it my way after having looked at the issue.

Only because you make good money and profit from the system does not mean that you cannot perceive a superior way.

That comment wasn't addressed at you. Some posters in this thread lack a basic understanding of finance and economics (understandable), which I and several others have tried to correct.

I'm neutral about the current financial system. It doesn't particularly benefit nor harm me. I haven't had the time to properly consider your views. At first glance, I suspect that they are unfeasible, but it would be wrong for me to dismiss them out of hand. If they are feasible and truly superior, then I would support them. If I had wanted to profit personally by exploiting others, I would have entered politics.

Post: #133

(06-30-2015 06:00 AM)Peregrine Wrote:  I'm neutral about the current financial system. It doesn't particularly benefit nor harm me. I haven't had the time to properly consider your views. At first glance, I suspect that they are unfeasible, but it would be wrong for me to dismiss them out of hand. If they are feasible and truly superior, then I would support them. If I had wanted to profit personally by exploiting others, I would have entered politics.

Oh - they are unfeasible alright, but not because they have not worked in the past and countries did not do it, but because control of the money supply and needless usury banking is so incredibly profitable and power-concentrating that plenty of people constantly want to enlarge and uphold such a system.

It is like trying to combat side-effect prone, expensive and very damaging petrochemical medicine with very effective side-effect free, but cheap diet and high quality supplements. You simply cannot win the battle with money and power, because one side is making 500 billion / year and the other side would net maybe 1-5 billion with no patents.

In history there have been many movements which banned usury and sometimes kings threw out of the country certain groups which mainly transacted that business. (To be fair there was more going on at that time, but this was a major point).

Besides - it's not a Jewish thing to charge interest. There is a large and strong usury-free movement in Israel and there was even a debate on that point in the Knesset - something that went 10 times further than in any country in recent history except for Iceland.





Here is Bill Still on a local Isreali TV station:





At least the debate reached the parliament there, which is fantastic in itself. I guess many more people there understand the negative power of this. Lending is all fine and well, but not when you have created the money out of thin air yourself or are creating the state money as debt versus just being created completely free based on the productive capacity of the government.

Post: #134

Quote:Lending is all fine and well, but not when you have created the money out of thin air yourself or are creating the state money as debt versus just being created completely free based on the productive capacity of the government.

Fractional reserve is merely leverage of stored productivity. It's the latter part that is so insidious, for which I blame government. Governments should not be allowed to run insane deficits like they do today.

Then again, people vote in the leeches because they want to live beyond their means in the short term. They're getting the government they deserve.

Post: #135

Fascinating, 50% unemployment in Greeks under 25.

Whether Greek exits or stays in EU, this country is just gonna be fucked for a long long time. Too many ingrained and cultural issues to recover from quickly it seems.

My cultural comment is based on what I recall reading that avoiding paying taxes is a sport there.

Quote:Lost in the battle over Greek debt and austerity is the fact that unemployment among people under 25 remains over 50%. At 50.1% in February, the last available data, even if Greece can pay its debt short term, an entire generation could contribute little to gross domestic product GDP and taxes. This is particularly concerning as these unemployed people reach the core years of their earning power, probably a decade from now.

http://247wallst.com/economy/2015/06/27/...z3eZnQueDT

Post: #136

(06-30-2015 02:43 PM)samsamsam Wrote:  Fascinating, 50% unemployment in Greeks under 25.

Whether Greek exits or stays in EU, this country is just gonna be fucked for a long long time. Too many ingrained and cultural issues to recover from quickly it seems.

My cultural comment is based on what I recall reading that avoiding paying taxes is a sport there.

Quote:Lost in the battle over Greek debt and austerity is the fact that unemployment among people under 25 remains over 50%. At 50.1% in February, the last available data, even if Greece can pay its debt short term, an entire generation could contribute little to gross domestic product GDP and taxes. This is particularly concerning as these unemployed people reach the core years of their earning power, probably a decade from now.

http://247wallst.com/economy/2015/06/27/...z3eZnQueDT

They should put a bunch of their smaller islands on Ebay.

Post: #137

Germany has been trying to make them do that since this all started. The have several Ferraris yet cant afford the gas...

Post: #138

(06-30-2015 03:15 PM)rpg Wrote:  

(06-30-2015 02:43 PM)samsamsam Wrote:  Fascinating, 50% unemployment in Greeks under 25.

Whether Greek exits or stays in EU, this country is just gonna be fucked for a long long time. Too many ingrained and cultural issues to recover from quickly it seems.

My cultural comment is based on what I recall reading that avoiding paying taxes is a sport there.

Quote:Lost in the battle over Greek debt and austerity is the fact that unemployment among people under 25 remains over 50%. At 50.1% in February, the last available data, even if Greece can pay its debt short term, an entire generation could contribute little to gross domestic product GDP and taxes. This is particularly concerning as these unemployed people reach the core years of their earning power, probably a decade from now.

http://247wallst.com/economy/2015/06/27/...z3eZnQueDT

They should put a bunch of their smaller islands on Ebay.

Wouldn't even cover the interest payments.

Post: #139

And after five years, it's finally official:

Zero Hedge

Post: #140

(06-30-2015 05:26 PM)HighSpeed_LowDrag Wrote:  And after five years, it's finally official:

Zero Hedge

Just to end the news, I hope this holds. However, I did see this:

Quote:*IMF TO CONSIDER GREEK REQUEST FOR PAYMENT DELAY IN DUE COURSE

And something tells me this will be what happens: "Oh look, we found a can to kick."

Post: #141

I say hyperinflation as well. Hopefully they don't get as bad as Zimbabwe.

Post: #142

My friend (from greece) mentioned that the unemployment rate is over 50% or something but that there doesn't seem to be as much violence or protest as would be expected.

Hopefully this doesn't turn into a civil war and it's only the economy that takes a hit.

Good time to use the dollar though!

Post: #143

(06-30-2015 06:19 PM)Parlay44 Wrote:  I say hyperinflation as well. Hopefully they don't get as bad as Zimbabwe.

When the best you can do is represent your nation with a pile of rocks and a cow, you know your problems run far deeper than the number of zeros on your notes

Post: #144

(06-30-2015 06:30 PM)Fast Eddie Wrote:  

(06-30-2015 06:19 PM)Parlay44 Wrote:  I say hyperinflation as well. Hopefully they don't get as bad as Zimbabwe.

When the best you can do is represent your nation with a pile of rocks and a cow, you know your problems run far deeper than the number of zeros on your notes

Yeah well. I guess the term "Going Greek" has taken on a new meaning lately

Post: #145

(06-30-2015 06:26 PM)Carboneraser Wrote:  My friend (from greece) mentioned that the unemployment rate is over 50% or something but that there doesn't seem to be as much violence or protest as would be expected.

Hopefully this doesn't turn into a civil war and it's only the economy that takes a hit.

Good time to use the dollar though!

Civil war? Against and for what? They spend more than they make/earn/worth.

The last time I was there. I could not believe how the lifestyle is possible. I was thinking I have to work all day??

I remember this one lady latching on to my travels ( distant relative) said she was on holiday and would like to stop at some islands. Ok.. She goes back to northern Greece after a month of moving around then like a week later she's back in Athens ready for another trip. I asked about her job and she was like I'm on holiday again.

I ended up ( have no idea how or why) in some village called eng sp. lootza. Seen her again.

Worked at a shop in Ano Glyfada ( Athens) with my buddy cause I was tired of being lazy for free.. We drank beer all day and never fixed anything. He said everyone is used to it and it'll get done sooner or later..

I was heckling some construction workers in Piraeus one day asking them how long what they were doing should actually take ( cement on sidewalk) they smoked and drank frappes all day never came back after lunch siesta or whatev they call it.

I really want to see how this plays out. I'm really thinking about going there this summer to break balls at a nuclear scale.

Post: #146

They are trying to save Greece with crowdfunding.

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/07/01/wor...?referrer=

Post: #147

(06-30-2015 07:20 PM)el mechanico Wrote:  

(06-30-2015 06:26 PM)Carboneraser Wrote:  My friend (from greece) mentioned that the unemployment rate is over 50% or something but that there doesn't seem to be as much violence or protest as would be expected.

Hopefully this doesn't turn into a civil war and it's only the economy that takes a hit.

Good time to use the dollar though!

Civil war? Against and for what? They spend more than they make/earn/worth.

The last time I was there. I could not believe how the lifestyle is possible. I was thinking I have to work all day??

I remember this one lady latching on to my travels ( distant relative) said she was on holiday and would like to stop at some islands. Ok.. She goes back to northern Greece after a month of moving around then like a week later she's back in Athens ready for another trip. I asked about her job and she was like I'm on holiday again.

I ended up ( have no idea how or why) in some village called eng sp. lootza. Seen her again.

Worked at a shop in Ano Glyfada ( Athens) with my buddy cause I was tired of being lazy for free.. We drank beer all day and never fixed anything. He said everyone is used to it and it'll get done sooner or later..

I was heckling some construction workers in Piraeus one day asking them how long what they were doing should actually take ( cement on sidewalk) they smoked and drank frappes all day never came back after lunch siesta or whatev they call it.

I really want to see how this plays out. I'm really thinking about going there this summer to break balls at a nuclear scale.

Everyone is lazy because they've been coasting on debt money to pay for their lifestyles, now it's time to repay those old debts.

The new Drachma will be one of the most worthless currencies in the world, reflecting all of the unpaid debts, and these Greeks will be forced to provide real value again or go back to the starvation line.

I say 70% chance Golden Dawn takes over, because they will have the most fighters loyal to the cause and if they can secure a loan then they will be able to employ people.

Post: #148

(06-30-2015 07:20 PM)el mechanico Wrote:  

(06-30-2015 06:26 PM)Carboneraser Wrote:  My friend (from greece) mentioned that the unemployment rate is over 50% or something but that there doesn't seem to be as much violence or protest as would be expected.

Hopefully this doesn't turn into a civil war and it's only the economy that takes a hit.

Good time to use the dollar though!

Civil war? Against and for what? They spend more than they make/earn/worth.

The last time I was there. I could not believe how the lifestyle is possible. I was thinking I have to work all day??

I remember this one lady latching on to my travels ( distant relative) said she was on holiday and would like to stop at some islands. Ok.. She goes back to northern Greece after a month of moving around then like a week later she's back in Athens ready for another trip. I asked about her job and she was like I'm on holiday again.

I ended up ( have no idea how or why) in some village called eng sp. lootza. Seen her again.

Worked at a shop in Ano Glyfada ( Athens) with my buddy cause I was tired of being lazy for free.. We drank beer all day and never fixed anything. He said everyone is used to it and it'll get done sooner or later..

I was heckling some construction workers in Piraeus one day asking them how long what they were doing should actually take ( cement on sidewalk) they smoked and drank frappes all day never came back after lunch siesta or whatev they call it.

I really want to see how this plays out. I'm really thinking about going there this summer to break balls at a nuclear scale.

"Go and break balls at a nuclear scale (sic) ". Good idea, you should definitely do that.

Post: #149

At least it hurts the EU.

Post: #150