(06-29-2015 04:34 AM)Atticus Wrote: Zel, every time I read one of your posts, I swear we share the same reading habits and political views. Now, if more like minded people could just get the message out there...
Thanks, but there would have to be a lot more of us to effect some change. There were massive movements in the past like in the UK with the Green Shirts who wanted to create interest free money system. They had political demonstrations with tens of thousands of supporters - maybe even hundreds of thousands or millions for all we know. Even that was not enough back in the 1930s. You would probably need some 30% of the population to tip the scales, but I don't think that this is possible in the intermediate future.
06-29-2015 05:37 AM
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Peregrine
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Capital controls put in place in Greece can only mean that the Greek government are preparing to default and go back to the Drachma. I hope so as Greece has no chance of paying the IMF/ECB debts back even if they did implement harsh austerity.
It will be tough for a while and may even lead to an EU exit as well, but in the longer term this will be by far the best option for Greece. To rebuild their economy and banking system my bets are on borrowing from the Russians.
(06-29-2015 07:29 AM)Peregrine Wrote: Zelcorpion, what you are advocating for is mass scale debt repudiation. World war would be the inevitable result.
Don't forget that most of America's debt is owed to domestic parties, e.g. pension funds.
What you are missing is a completely new economic paradigm. If you would want to expand it for the world, then interest free banking could be expanded for the world - just like it is possible with the WIR in Switzerland and the JAK Bank in Sweden. Everyone would be liable for at least one interest free real estate credit relative to the size of the income. In addition you would initiate demurrage in the system and social credit for money issuance making the velocity of money super-fast (as done in real life Woergl in 1930s). The economy would be booming everywhere.
But yeah - there would be war alright, because the 0,001% would be bleeding like hell and they would rather kill 6.5 billion than let the slaves have freedom.
https://realcurrencies.wordpress.com/about/ - iff you want to educate yourself and not only defend the talking points of mega-billionaires. Plenty of links and infos found on that site. No economist will ever debate with one of the guys on the site - because a debate is unwinnable. You will rather get the silent treatment than talk about it. I have studied economics since age 16 and later at the university and in real life. Never are you presented with those facts and alternatives mentioned. It's as if they did not exist at all and as if the Austrian government in the midst of a global recession did not threaten to move the army against Woergl and any of the 500 other cities in Germany, Switzerland and Austria who wanted to repeat Woergl's additional interest free money that effectively cut unemployment from 20%+ to zero within one year (also boosting prosperity and creating a mini-boom just by a small portion of an internal demurrage currency injected into it - it would be even more effective if it would be done via social credit and demurrage by an entire country). Many wars have been waged and politicians have been killed who wanted to end the yolk of usury. Andrew Jackson was almost killed twice, but since the assassination failed he was the last president to kill the private central bank and pay back all the debt - last time the US owed nothing to no one.
I agree with Zelcorpion's points. We have to end usury and the fractional reserve banking system. These systems are the cause of all the big wars over the last 200 years, including WWII.
Back to the subject of Greece; BBC news:
""If there's no deal, Grexit is inevitable," says Prof Dimitrios Kousenidis of Aristotle University of Thessaloniki. "There has to be a deal."
Not only must Greece find debt repayments for June, it has a hot summer of instalments owing to the ECB too, with a €3.5bn repayment due on 20 July. If Greece failed to pay that, it would be very difficult for the Frankfurt-based bank to justify propping up the Greek banking system further."
Greece has a debt that is 177% of GDP and with their economy contracting at 28% of GDP annually they have no chance of paying back the debts. They have to wipe the slate clean, default, Euro and EU Grexit. And the longer they leave it, the more painful it will be.
06-29-2015 09:14 AM
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No, ending central banking would be enough. Ending free banking is like saying we need to end mornings. The Muslims have no-interest (riba is haram) banking, and to the extent it successfully looks interest-free, it's nothing impressive.
(06-29-2015 10:30 AM)Phoenix Wrote: No, ending central banking would be enough. Ending free banking is like saying we need to end mornings. The Muslims have no-interest (riba is haram) banking, and to the extent it successfully looks interest-free, it's nothing impressive.
The current Muslim banking is not really interest free - it just looks that way.
And I did not advocate for ending free banking - just ending usury for areas that are unnecessary: - state financing and self-owned real estate and minimum amenities. For the rest I would keep interest rates up. If you absolutely need a second house and a Ferrari that you cannot afford off the bat, then by all means take that sound interest credit. Also risky, but potentially lucrative businesses should have a return on that. I would just stop fractional reserve lending and let banks work like 1980s US credit unions. A bank gets deposits and gives out loans at 50% of the deposit rate at the most - not almost infinite like it is now. For self-owned real estate credit (you gotta live somewhere) a bank should be the administrator, but would only receive flat administrative fees (the actual work that banks put in - not the 150.000$ usury profit on a 100.000$ house).
People don't realize how deep the current usury cuts - it is virtually 50% of all prices. That means that everything would become half as expensive with equal pay if usury was cut. Plus everyone could afford his own place off the bat. There is even more to it if you take a deep look. At the blog of Realcurrencies you see many real life examples and books mentioned.
This is not really new among good economists:
Documentary on Greek crisis by a Greek economics professor
More on the issue by money reformer and US 3rd party candidate Bill Still
I talked with Bill Still personally a few times and he mentioned that Milton Friedman saw his documentary and agreed with the solutions he proposed. Top economists usually know what I said here, but they have to officially tow the party line.
(06-29-2015 08:47 AM)Guitarman Wrote: Capital controls put in place in Greece can only mean that the Greek government are preparing to default and go back to the Drachma. I hope so as Greece has no chance of paying the IMF/ECB debts back even if they did implement harsh austerity.
It will be tough for a while and may even lead to an EU exit as well, but in the longer term this will be by far the best option for Greece. To rebuild their economy and banking system my bets are on borrowing from the Russians.
It accuses Tsipiras as painting himself into a corner by promising to end austerity by Greece remaining within the eurozone and ultimately the EU. That simply is not possible as there is no way Greece's creditors and other EU states like Germany would allow Greece any more cash unless it continued on the anointed policy of neo-liberal austerity (short infusion of cash in return for years of grinding depression). According to the KKE (Greek Communist Party) the only course for Greece right now is to default, reintroduce the Drachma and perform a root and branch reform of the tax and systems of governance rotted to the core from nearly a century of corruption, clientelism, croneyism and blatant tax evasion.
Foreign Policy mag have also been critical of Greece's creditors accusing them of holding the country to blackmail. However I do believe that the voters will be cowered into a Yes vote by the powers that be and Greece will end up facing decades of penury.
What now for Greece? Joseph Stiglitz warns of two posible scenarios for Greece. Neither of which will be pleasant for the EU.
Quote:Stiglitz sees two possible outcomes to that scenario – neither of them pleasant for the European Union. If the Greek economy recovers after abandoning the euro, it would “certainly increase the impetus for anti-euro politics,” encouraging other struggling economies to drop the common currency and go it alone. If the Greek economy collapses without the euro, “you have on the edge of Europe a failed state,” Stiglitz says. “That’s when the geopolitics become very ugly.”
I'm afraid as clever as some of you guys may be on the subject, way ahead of me as I only understand basic banking, you're forgetting the one thing which enables this sort of thing and will never allow fair banking.
- Human greed knows no bounds
You now have to see Greece as a company with assets to sell off because that is all it is good for now. You can make money through infrastructure and the culture with a huge potential for tourism.
Right now the people with money are going to count their losses but they're already eyeing up the prized assets if they become available. Hedge funds love this sort of thing.
06-29-2015 11:19 AM
Wreckingball
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Greece can default, greece can accept the loan. In the end, greece needs to reform, harshly or they will be in the same situation in a couple of years.
(06-29-2015 03:13 AM)Easy E Wrote: Greece is fucked. Proper fucked.
Both of their options suck. If they stay in the euro, then they will have to agree to years of painful austerity and an even weaker economy. If they leave the euro, then they will spend the next several years in a deep depression that will only get better once their banking and finance sector is rebuilt from the ground up.
Amazing that people cannot fathom life without a banking or finance sector.
Finance is a parasite. Yes, since the 19th Century there has been a symbiosis between parasite and host and the ending of this relationship will hurt.
But people, nature and nations cannot help but be productive - once they swallow enough bitter salt to bring the tapeworm to their mouths to spit out.
06-29-2015 01:05 PM
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N°6
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(06-29-2015 11:19 AM)Foolsgo1d Wrote: I'm afraid as clever as some of you guys may be on the subject, way ahead of me as I only understand basic banking, you're forgetting the one thing which enables this sort of thing and will never allow fair banking.
- Human greed knows no bounds
You now have to see Greece as a company with assets to sell off because that is all it is good for now. You can make money through infrastructure and the culture with a huge potential for tourism.
Right now the people with money are going to count their losses but they're already eyeing up the prized assets if they become available. Hedge funds love this sort of thing.
I doubt that you are intimidated by the faux sophistication of a whore who calls herself a high class escort. Do not therefore think that the common usurer is better than you just because mathematical algorithms work in his favour when he sleeps.
The program behind this Matrix is the exponential function:
Dr. Bartlett mentions 5%. This is a significant figure as this is what the usurer fought kings and popes to have the right to extract from the poor for centuries.
Quote:Five-Per-Cent by Robert W Service
Because I have ten thousand pounds I sit upon my stern,
And leave my living tranquilly for other folks to earn.
For in some procreative way that isn't very clear,
Ten thousand pounds will breed, they say, five hundred every year.
So as I have a healthy hate of economic strife,
I mean to stand aloof from it the balance of my life.
And yet with sympathy I see the grimy son of toil,
And heartly congratulate the tiller of the soil.
I like the miner in the mine, the sailor on the sea,
Because up to five hundred pounds they sail and mine for me.
For me their toil is taxed unto that annual extent,
According to the holy shibboleth of Five-per-Cent.
So get ten thousand pounds, my friend, in any way you can.
And leave your future welfare to the noble Working Man.
He'll buy you suits of Harris tweed, an Airedale and a car;
Your golf clubs and your morning Times, your whisky and cigar.
He'll cosily install you in a cottage by a stream,
With every modern comfort, and a garden that's a dream
Or if your tastes be urban, he'll provide you with a flat,
Secluded from the clamour of the proletariat.
With pictures, music, easy chairs, a table of good cheer,
A chap can manage nicely on five hundred pounds a year.
And though around you painful signs of industry you view,
Why should you work when you can make your money work for you?
So I'll get down upon my knees and bless the Working Man,
Who offers me a life of ease through all my mortal span;
Whose loins are lean to make me fat, who slaves to keep me free,
Who dies before his prime to let me round the century;
Whose wife and children toil in urn until their strength is spent,
That I may live in idleness upon my five-per-cent.
And if at times they curse me, why should I feel any blame?
For in my place I know that they would do the very same.
Aye, though they hoist a flag that's red on Sunday afternoon,
Just offer them ten thousand pounds and see them change their tune.
So I'll enjoy my dividends and live my life with zest,
And bless the mighty men who first - invented Interest.
(This post was last modified: 06-29-2015 01:50 PM by N°6.)
(06-29-2015 01:05 PM)N°6 Wrote: Finance is a parasite.
Nope, finance is a normal part of a functioning society. Like farming or teaching. It just happens to be one of the first sectors the power-hungry take control of.
Every time we blame the wrong person, the true culprit grins.
(06-29-2015 01:05 PM)N°6 Wrote: Finance is a parasite.
Nope, finance is a normal part of a functioning society. Like farming or teaching. It just happens to be one of the first sectors the power-hungry take control of.
Every time we blame the wrong person, the true culprit grins.
Nonsense. People were exchanging goods and services for services and goods before usury. The parasite is attracted to energy not the other way round.
(06-29-2015 11:19 AM)Foolsgo1d Wrote: I'm afraid as clever as some of you guys may be on the subject, way ahead of me as I only understand basic banking, you're forgetting the one thing which enables this sort of thing and will never allow fair banking.
- Human greed knows no bounds
You now have to see Greece as a company with assets to sell off because that is all it is good for now. You can make money through infrastructure and the culture with a huge potential for tourism.
Right now the people with money are going to count their losses but they're already eyeing up the prized assets if they become available. Hedge funds love this sort of thing.
I doubt that you are intimidated by the faux sophistication of a whore who calls herself a high class escort. Do not therefore think that the common usurer is better than you just because mathematical algorithms work in his favour when he sleeps.
The program behind this Matrix is the exponential function:
Dr. Bartlett mentions 5%. This is a significant figure as this is what the usurer fought kings and popes to have the right to extract from the poor for centuries.
Quote:Five-Per-Cent by Robert W Service
Because I have ten thousand pounds I sit upon my stern,
And leave my living tranquilly for other folks to earn.
For in some procreative way that isn't very clear,
Ten thousand pounds will breed, they say, five hundred every year.
So as I have a healthy hate of economic strife,
I mean to stand aloof from it the balance of my life.
And yet with sympathy I see the grimy son of toil,
And heartly congratulate the tiller of the soil.
I like the miner in the mine, the sailor on the sea,
Because up to five hundred pounds they sail and mine for me.
For me their toil is taxed unto that annual extent,
According to the holy shibboleth of Five-per-Cent.
So get ten thousand pounds, my friend, in any way you can.
And leave your future welfare to the noble Working Man.
He'll buy you suits of Harris tweed, an Airedale and a car;
Your golf clubs and your morning Times, your whisky and cigar.
He'll cosily install you in a cottage by a stream,
With every modern comfort, and a garden that's a dream
Or if your tastes be urban, he'll provide you with a flat,
Secluded from the clamour of the proletariat.
With pictures, music, easy chairs, a table of good cheer,
A chap can manage nicely on five hundred pounds a year.
And though around you painful signs of industry you view,
Why should you work when you can make your money work for you?
So I'll get down upon my knees and bless the Working Man,
Who offers me a life of ease through all my mortal span;
Whose loins are lean to make me fat, who slaves to keep me free,
Who dies before his prime to let me round the century;
Whose wife and children toil in urn until their strength is spent,
That I may live in idleness upon my five-per-cent.
And if at times they curse me, why should I feel any blame?
For in my place I know that they would do the very same.
Aye, though they hoist a flag that's red on Sunday afternoon,
Just offer them ten thousand pounds and see them change their tune.
So I'll enjoy my dividends and live my life with zest,
And bless the mighty men who first - invented Interest.
06-29-2015 01:51 PM
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(06-29-2015 01:45 PM)N°6 Wrote: Nonsense. People were exchanging goods and services for services and goods before usury. The parasite is attracted to energy not the other way round.
Yep, and always for a price. You lend someone a house, you expect a rent. You lend someone a tractor, you expect a rent. The more valuable the house or tractor, the more rent per month you expect. If you simply sold the house or tractor for gold coins, apparently when you lend those gold coins it becomes "usury" and evil. There is no consistency to the "finance / fractional reserve banking / interest is the devil" theories at all.
Money, accounting, and finance generally, are amongst the most fundamental and enormously beneficial inventions of mankind, and all the financier haters are misplacing their hate. Bail-outs, unearned bonuses, corruption, cronyism, regulations, central planning, etc etc, are all the creations of governments, and the financiers just happen to be the first and closest receivers of benefits stemming from these things. Gut government, and you'd find financiers are not in such a privileged position after all.
06-29-2015 02:17 PM
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N°6
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(06-29-2015 01:45 PM)N°6 Wrote: Nonsense. People were exchanging goods and services for services and goods before usury. The parasite is attracted to energy not the other way round.
Yep, and always for a price. You lend someone a house, you expect a rent. You lend someone a tractor, you expect a rent. The more valuable the house or tractor, the more rent per month you expect. If you simply sold the house or tractor for gold coins, apparently when you lend those gold coins it becomes "usury" and evil. There is no consistency to the "finance / fractional reserve banking / interest is the devil" theories at all.
Money, accounting, and finance generally, are amongst the most fundamental and enormously beneficial inventions of mankind, and all the financier haters are misplacing their hate. Bail-outs, unearned bonuses, corruption, cronyism, regulations, central planning, etc etc, are all the creations of governments, and the financiers just happen to be the first and closest receivers of benefits stemming from these things. Gut government, and you'd find financiers are not in such a privileged position after all.
Someone who confuses rent with usury is too foolish to debate with especially when he types usury between smear marks.
(06-29-2015 09:14 AM)Guitarman Wrote: I agree with Zelcorpion's points. We have to end usury and the fractional reserve banking system. These systems are the cause of all the big wars over the last 200 years, including WWII.
The bigger problem more recently is the emergence of a transactional banking, where banks don't maintain long term partnerships with clients but instead their funds are disposable assets to be used as the bank wishes. Whereas previously banks would issue a loan and then track the loan themselves, they now bundle the loan into other derivative securities that they in turn sell to make additional profit.
See: the mortgage collapse. Mortgage-backed securities and credit default swaps are financial products that are a direct result of transactional(NOT fractional) banking.
Quote:Fractional banking has been around for hundreds of years. So why is it only now that this is the great evil? The answer is simply – it is a diversion and not the problem. Fractional banking is taking $1 in deposits and lending it out many times. The new rage is to tout this as the creation of money by banks. Yet banks cannot create this type of money to pay their bills or taxes, because it is not really creating money out of thin air – it is merely leverage.
Being dispassionate always leads to the answer. If fractional banking was the problem, then why do banks have well over $2 trillion parked at the Fed in EXCESS RESERVES? That means, they could lend that money out multiple times and leverage it into even $10 trillion. So why are they not lending?
Glass-Steagall Signing-Repeal
Welcome to the dawn of TRANSACTIONAL BANKING. If I were to be assassinated for something, it would be for trying to refocus the public’s attention to this new development that is post-1991. Robert Rubin of Goldman Sachs sold the idea of TRANSACTIONAL BANKING, claiming it would make the banks stronger, for they would generate the loans, but then package them and sell them to someone else – i.e. 2007. This was the pitch to repeal Glass Steagall in 1999. If the banks didn’t have these loans on their books, then they would not have the risk when the business cycle turned down. That meant the END OF FRACTIONAL BANKING.
The banks would rather trade with your money (repeal of the Volcker Rule) than lend money out to create jobs (Fractional Banking). So while they have no problem if the people, as is the case in Iceland, demand that the credit decisions be handed to government because from their perspective, they do not give a shit. This is now about trading, not lending.
(This post was last modified: 06-29-2015 04:44 PM by Easy_C.)
This is one (of many) reasons why I remain highly skeptical of any Greek exit or collapse. China knows that things can't get bad now, and it also understands the importance of things appearing good while it purchases gold and builds its assets for the future. Remember, that China has purchased assets in Brazil, the US, Russia, Africa, and Europe during troubled economic times, meaning many of the assets they own, they own at a premium.
China doesn't want its markets to fall, even though they're falling. This is the best of all news because it shows all of us how China will handle this - will they go QE-crazy like the Fed, will they play the world stage hoping to continue stability (like this news), or will they try something else. This is a preview of how China will be the world power, if it can continue to sustain itself.
06-29-2015 06:47 PM
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Peregrine
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I have yet to investigate zelcorpion's ideas, but I suspect they are attempt at a free lunch or are too idealistic to implement on a mass scale. Human nature must always be taken into account.
(06-29-2015 01:45 PM)N°6 Wrote:
(06-29-2015 01:16 PM)Phoenix Wrote:
(06-29-2015 01:05 PM)N°6 Wrote: Finance is a parasite.
Nope, finance is a normal part of a functioning society. Like farming or teaching. It just happens to be one of the first sectors the power-hungry take control of.
Every time we blame the wrong person, the true culprit grins.
Nonsense. People were exchanging goods and services for services and goods before usury. The parasite is attracted to energy not the other way round.
People were around before vehicles, steam engines, and other necessities of mass civilization as well.
To me, usury is when you charge obscene interest rates just because you have the other person over a barrel. There is nothing usurious about asking for a fee in return of lending money. You expect people to lend money, which is wealth that they saved up, for free? Give me a break. If that's the case, screw saving - I'm joining the line of borrowers.
Glad to see guys like Phoenix and Easy_C (you asswipe, I already posted that exact same Armstrong article ) get it, but I suspect they work in the industry.
(This post was last modified: 06-29-2015 07:17 PM by Peregrine.)
Looks like all the important countries, banks and people have finally removed themselves from the danger of a Greece default so it's now free to default.
Question is, will it stop there or will more countries/states like Puerto Rico start saying fuck it, we'll default too? Can't ever pay it all back.
"If you owe $10,000 to your bank and can't pay, you have a problem. If you owe $100,000,000 to your bank and you can't pay, your bank has a problem."
“….and we will win, and you will win, and we will keep on winning, and eventually you will say… we can’t take all of this winning, …please Mr. Trump …and I will say, NO, we will win, and we will keep on winning”.
(06-29-2015 07:17 PM)Peregrine Wrote: I have yet to investigate zelcorpion's ideas, but I suspect they are attempt at a free lunch or are too idealistic to implement on a mass scale. Human nature must always be taken into account.
(06-29-2015 01:45 PM)N°6 Wrote:
(06-29-2015 01:16 PM)Phoenix Wrote:
(06-29-2015 01:05 PM)N°6 Wrote: Finance is a parasite.
Nope, finance is a normal part of a functioning society. Like farming or teaching. It just happens to be one of the first sectors the power-hungry take control of.
Every time we blame the wrong person, the true culprit grins.
Nonsense. People were exchanging goods and services for services and goods before usury. The parasite is attracted to energy not the other way round.
People were around before vehicles, steam engines, and other necessities of mass civilization as well.
To me, usury is when you charge obscene interest rates just because you have the other person over a barrel. There is nothing usurious about asking for a fee in return of lending money. You expect people to lend money, which is wealth that they saved up, for free? Give me a break. If that's the case, screw saving - I'm joining the line of borrowers.
Glad to see guys like Phoenix and Easy_C (you asswipe, I already posted that exact same Armstrong article ) get it, but I suspect they work in the industry.
The charging of a flat fee for the lending of money is clearly better than placing the 'bond' of compound interest around the neck of the productive man. However, a read through the history of Renaissance Italy shows this was the thin edge that the Italian plutocrats used to get modest usury legalised by a hostile papacy.
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