Post: #101

In the end its not necessarily how much money you make although that is an important factor but how much and what you can buy you can buy. Money is after all a way to access the fruits of human labor both its Quantity and Quality and new services and products as a result of innovation.

Wealth is in the end not money itself but what is made and provided. The real solution is the constant increase of the Quality and Quantity of the goods and services provided, hence fostering a culture of constantly improving quality and quantity is what will ensure that it is possible to access High Quality Goods and Services at lower prices.

Since money is a means to access the available fruits of human labor all that the increasing wages for the same Quality and Quantity of work does, like money printing is to cause inflation since increasing the medium of exchange does nothing to improve or increase the fruits of human labor that could be accessed by money. Wealth is not in reality increasing and everyone gets hurt.

More people will be locked out of employment and everything will be higher priced.
Either in the form of higher prices or smaller sizes which is pretty much the same thing as inflation.

Post: #102

Yes, exactly. Higher minimum wages = higher inflation. After the $15 goes into effect, businesses will raise prices in order to afford their employees. It won't be long before people are clamoring for $20 wage, then $25 wage, etc, just so they can afford to keep up with the economy. The dollar menu eventually becomes the $10 dollar menu.

I remember when $20 used to feel like a lot of money. Nowadays, $20 is basically what $5 was in 2000.


All of this higher minimum wage nonsense is just papering over a shit economy. Raising wages does NOTHING to fix the underlying issues killing America's economy right now, but promising people more money and free stuff is a great way to get elected.

We are witnessing why democracy fails. The end game is bankruptcy (i.e. hyperinflation).

Post: #103

(05-21-2015 03:34 AM)Samseau Wrote:  Yes, exactly. Higher minimum wages = higher inflation. After the $15 goes into effect, businesses will raise prices in order to afford their employees. It won't be long before people are clamoring for $20 wage, then $25 wage, etc, just so they can afford to keep up with the economy. The dollar menu eventually becomes the $10 dollar menu.

I remember when $20 used to feel like a lot of money. Nowadays, $20 is basically what $5 was in 2000.


All of this higher minimum wage nonsense is just papering over a shit economy. Raising wages does NOTHING to fix the underlying issues killing America's economy right now, but promising people more money and free stuff is a great way to get elected.

We are witnessing why democracy fails. The end game is bankruptcy (i.e. hyperinflation).

Indeed, the lawmakers that made this happen have a good understanding of politics and what to put in the news to try to get re elected but a poor understanding of basic economics.

There is one other possibility that I had not considered, this is a direct attempt to get people to try to move out of Los Angeles because they cannot afford to live here.

Post: #104

In Australia it's about $20/hr. In fact if you don't even work you get $250 a week welfare (as long as you prove you're seeking work), plus rent allowance (I think up to $100 per week). If you're lower class, or a slacker, move to Australia.

The $15 limit doesn't mean 'now everyone gets paid at least this', it means 'below this level the exchange of money and labour is punished'. All it does is put certain people out of work (guys just getting on the ladder), thereby increasing (by reduced total supply) the value of the remaining labour. It isn't moral.

Post: #105

In Midland, Tx last year, almost every fast food restaurant had $14 hr on their signs. This was due to the oil boom, which naturally led businesses to raise prices due to so many making higher salaries. But the real culprit was the housing shortage. In order to keep their doors open, food chains had to raise their hourly rate, which in turn, skyrocketed the price of food further. For example:

4 bean & cheese tacos:

San Antonio- $3.85
Midland- $12

But the min wage crowd still bitched, cause it was hard to make a living. However, Halliburton paid entry level employees $15 hr on Fracing crews. But the frac crews weren't bitching. You know why? Because they were fucking working 120 hrs a week. The Taco Bell crowd worked 40 and didn't want to work a 2nd job, because it wasn't 'fair'.

The part of our society that attract to these low skilled jobs for a career are lazy and entitled. They'd rather good men risk their lives in the oilfield to subsidize their '4 kid, 40 hr week' lifestyle. And these people were fucking jealous, and would not even try and hide it in their piss poor attitudes while working the register. A lot of people stopped eating in these establishments, and flocked to restaurants where the waitstaff were tipped. Why? Cause we tipped like bosses and those girls weren't struggling. But they worked far harder on the floor than just standing there working as a Taco Assembly Engineer.

I personally endorse the $14 hr pay hike. The sooner this country burns to the ground, the faster we can start building it back.

Post: #106

(05-20-2015 12:36 AM)speakeasy Wrote:  

(05-19-2015 07:25 PM)The Beast1 Wrote:  Most fast food restaurants are going to switch over to machines with maybe 1 or 2 full time staff running the show.

What about restaurant and wait staff? Are tips deducted out?

No such machines exists. And imagine the enormous expense of purchasing such machines and maintaining them for thousands of fast food restaurants.

Not true:
http://www.gizmag.com/hamburger-machine/25159/

They're in start up mode, but I wouldn't be surprised to see this one take off. I can see the demand for such a product really taking off in the coming years.

Post: #107

Everybody repeat after Milton:

Milton Friedman Wrote:Inflation is always and everywhere a monetary phenomenon in the sense that it is and can be produced only by a more rapid increase in the quantity of money than in output.

Cheeseburger prices increasing does not equal inflation. If input prices go up output prices may go up but without an expansion of the money supply any extra money spent by consumers on cheeseburgers means less money spent on other things. Burger places can't pass the full price onto customers and expect everything to work out as before.

Post: #108

(05-21-2015 02:39 PM)Grange Wrote:  Everybody repeat after Milton:

Milton Friedman Wrote:Inflation is always and everywhere a monetary phenomenon in the sense that it is and can be produced only by a more rapid increase in the quantity of money than in output.

Cheeseburger prices increasing does not equal inflation. If input prices go up output prices may go up but without an expansion of the money supply any extra money spent by consumers on cheeseburgers means less money spent on other things. Burger places can't pass the full price onto customers and expect everything to work out as before.

Yeah, if raising the minimum wage leads to inflation which undermines your raise, well then people with high paying jobs shouldn't get raises either for the same reason. By the logic of half this forum, all employers should have an indefinite freeze on raises for all employees regardless of income. If people making more money = inflation and it wouldn't actually be a raise anyway. So what's the logic of giving higher income people raises then since people making more money is apparently bad for the economy?

At the heart of it, I think the anti-minimum wage talk stems from a deep contempt for the poor that's prevalent in American culture. This is something notably absent in other industrial nations. Europeans don't have a problem with poor people being paid more money. This is mostly an American thing. We look down on the poor because we have this philosophy unique to us called the Protestant Ethic that this country was founded on where we believe if you're rich it's because you're a better person and a harder worker. If you're poor, it's because you're lazy and entitled. That's why raising the minimum wage is always fraught with controversy here. "How dare you pay these peasants flipping burgers a living wage!" They are lazy, stupid, bums, they ought to be making $3 an hour!

I'd rather these burger flippers make a living wage then go on welfare or turn to slanging dope.

Post: #109

(05-21-2015 04:39 PM)speakeasy Wrote:  

(05-21-2015 02:39 PM)Grange Wrote:  Everybody repeat after Milton:

Milton Friedman Wrote:Inflation is always and everywhere a monetary phenomenon in the sense that it is and can be produced only by a more rapid increase in the quantity of money than in output.

Cheeseburger prices increasing does not equal inflation. If input prices go up output prices may go up but without an expansion of the money supply any extra money spent by consumers on cheeseburgers means less money spent on other things. Burger places can't pass the full price onto customers and expect everything to work out as before.

Yeah, if raising the minimum wage leads to inflation which undermines your raise, well then people with high paying jobs shouldn't get raises either for the same reason. By the logic of half this forum, all employers should have an indefinite freeze on raises for all employees regardless of income. If people making more money = inflation and it wouldn't actually be a raise anyway. So what's the logic of giving higher income people raises then since people making more money is apparently bad for the economy?

It's much more logical to think that increasing the wages of employees won't increase the price of products in the private sector or taxes in the public sector.

Post: #110

(05-21-2015 04:48 PM)Darius Wrote:  

(05-21-2015 04:39 PM)speakeasy Wrote:  

(05-21-2015 02:39 PM)Grange Wrote:  Everybody repeat after Milton:

Milton Friedman Wrote:Inflation is always and everywhere a monetary phenomenon in the sense that it is and can be produced only by a more rapid increase in the quantity of money than in output.

Cheeseburger prices increasing does not equal inflation. If input prices go up output prices may go up but without an expansion of the money supply any extra money spent by consumers on cheeseburgers means less money spent on other things. Burger places can't pass the full price onto customers and expect everything to work out as before.

Yeah, if raising the minimum wage leads to inflation which undermines your raise, well then people with high paying jobs shouldn't get raises either for the same reason. By the logic of half this forum, all employers should have an indefinite freeze on raises for all employees regardless of income. If people making more money = inflation and it wouldn't actually be a raise anyway. So what's the logic of giving higher income people raises then since people making more money is apparently bad for the economy?

It's much more logical to think that increasing the wages of employees won't increase the price of products in the private sector or taxes in the public sector.

You're assuming that 100% of that raise will go to consumer spending. Are you forgetting that a good portion of it may go to servicing debt? Or saving for a home? Not every person spends every last cent of what he makes on consumer goods.

Post: #111

(05-21-2015 04:55 PM)speakeasy Wrote:  

(05-21-2015 04:48 PM)Darius Wrote:  

(05-21-2015 04:39 PM)speakeasy Wrote:  

(05-21-2015 02:39 PM)Grange Wrote:  Everybody repeat after Milton:

Milton Friedman Wrote:Inflation is always and everywhere a monetary phenomenon in the sense that it is and can be produced only by a more rapid increase in the quantity of money than in output.

Cheeseburger prices increasing does not equal inflation. If input prices go up output prices may go up but without an expansion of the money supply any extra money spent by consumers on cheeseburgers means less money spent on other things. Burger places can't pass the full price onto customers and expect everything to work out as before.

Yeah, if raising the minimum wage leads to inflation which undermines your raise, well then people with high paying jobs shouldn't get raises either for the same reason. By the logic of half this forum, all employers should have an indefinite freeze on raises for all employees regardless of income. If people making more money = inflation and it wouldn't actually be a raise anyway. So what's the logic of giving higher income people raises then since people making more money is apparently bad for the economy?

It's much more logical to think that increasing the wages of employees won't increase the price of products in the private sector or taxes in the public sector.

You're assuming that 100% of that raise will go to consumer spending. Are you forgetting that a good portion of it may go to servicing debt? Or saving for a home? Not every person spends every last cent of what he makes on consumer goods.

That isn't what I'm talking about at all.

What I'm talking about is that it costs money to pay workers.

In the private sector that money comes from the business. So the business will increase the prices of it's products to compensate for any pay increases.

In the public sector the government will have to raise taxes to pay for the raises of public sector workers.

Post: #112

A couple of things i am trying to figure out:

This raise will be for the "CITY" of LA and not the county, right? Which means, santa monica, west hollywood, BH etc will not be affected?

If thats case then we can assume more business will move to el segundo and maybe more bars/restaurants would relocate to weho since the low wage might offset the high property rents.

Post: #113

(05-21-2015 05:21 PM)8ball Wrote:  A couple of things i am trying to figure out:

This raise will be for the "CITY" of LA and not the county, right? Which means, santa monica, west hollywood, BH etc will not be affected?

If thats case then we can assume more business will move to el segundo and maybe more bars/restaurants would relocate to weho since the low wage might offset the high property rents.

For now, it just appears to be the City of Los Angeles, and not the county and you may be right about about more bars, restaurants, and other businesses relocating to other cities in Los Angeles County or to unincorporated areas of Los Angeles County. Don't be too surprised if other cities within Los Angeles County like Long Beach, Santa Monica, and Burbank follow suit.

Post: #114

(05-21-2015 06:39 PM)Merenguero Wrote:  

(05-21-2015 05:21 PM)8ball Wrote:  A couple of things i am trying to figure out:

This raise will be for the "CITY" of LA and not the county, right? Which means, santa monica, west hollywood, BH etc will not be affected?

If thats case then we can assume more business will move to el segundo and maybe more bars/restaurants would relocate to weho since the low wage might offset the high property rents.

For now, it just appears to be the City of Los Angeles, and not the county and you may be right about about more bars, restaurants, and other businesses relocating to other cities in Los Angeles County or to unincorporated areas of Los Angeles County. Don't be too surprised if other cities within Los Angeles County like Long Beach, Santa Monica, and Burbank follow suit.

If LA does it, it probably won't be long before the rest of CA does too.

Post: #115

(05-21-2015 04:39 PM)speakeasy Wrote:  

(05-21-2015 02:39 PM)Grange Wrote:  Everybody repeat after Milton:

Milton Friedman Wrote:Inflation is always and everywhere a monetary phenomenon in the sense that it is and can be produced only by a more rapid increase in the quantity of money than in output.

Cheeseburger prices increasing does not equal inflation. If input prices go up output prices may go up but without an expansion of the money supply any extra money spent by consumers on cheeseburgers means less money spent on other things. Burger places can't pass the full price onto customers and expect everything to work out as before.

Yeah, if raising the minimum wage leads to inflation which undermines your raise, well then people with high paying jobs shouldn't get raises either for the same reason. By the logic of half this forum, all employers should have an indefinite freeze on raises for all employees regardless of income. If people making more money = inflation and it wouldn't actually be a raise anyway. So what's the logic of giving higher income people raises then since people making more money is apparently bad for the economy?

At the heart of it, I think the anti-minimum wage talk stems from a deep contempt for the poor that's prevalent in American culture. This is something notably absent in other industrial nations. Europeans don't have a problem with poor people being paid more money. This is mostly an American thing. We look down on the poor because we have this philosophy unique to us called the Protestant Ethic that this country was founded on where we believe if you're rich it's because you're a better person and a harder worker. If you're poor, it's because you're lazy and entitled. That's why raising the minimum wage is always fraught with controversy here. "How dare you pay these peasants flipping burgers a living wage!" They are lazy, stupid, bums, they ought to be making $3 an hour!

I'd rather these burger flippers make a living wage then go on welfare or turn to slanging dope.

Read this:
https://mises.org/library/illusion-living-wage-laws

https://mises.org/library/living-wage-mistake

Post: #116

(05-20-2015 03:20 AM)It_is_my_time Wrote:  While it is a noble cause, I see the end result being the same as most every time the govt. interferes with the economic process...

The rich get richer, the poor remain poor, the middle class gets stuck with the bill.

To pay for the increase in labor costs companies will have to...

- Raise prices - hits the middle class, as they don't get a pay raise but the costs of goods and services goes up. The poor do get a pay raise, but the COL goes up along with it, so they remain poor.

- Cut workers - hits the lower class, less low class jobs. Hits the middle class as those on welfare will increase taking from the tax base. Add to it, the middle class children no longer can find the minimum wage jobs their parents enjoyed to help afford extras/save for college. I believe I heard some where that the % of teenagers with a job today has dropped in half over the last 20 years. More and more underemployed adults taking these low class jobs as nothing else is available.

- Eat the cost - Large companies, owned by the elites, can afford to do this. Small businesses, owned by the middle class, simply cannot. Eventually the small businesses will close up shop and the big boys win.

It will be more of the same we have seen for the last 20 years. The rich get richer, the poor remain poor, and the middle class gets stuck with the bill.

I don't disagree with a wage increase for anyone but I object to government being the means to do it, especially with an "this is the solution for every business!!!" mentality.

I wouldn't have any gripes if mcdonalds workers unionized, went on strike and then negotiated for $15. That is negotiation between the workforce and the employer. If mcdonalds just lets them strike, installs machines or mexicans...then guess what. They weren't worth $15.

Unionized or individual negotiation allows for the true cost of a job to be revealed. Too high of a wage and it breaks the company, too low of a wage and you get a strike.

Post: #117

(05-19-2015 08:24 PM)Basil Ransom Wrote:  "Also, higher disposable income for the masses will just be absorbed by higher real estate prices. "

When the supply of housing is limited by government policy.

This is one of the most vicious things about de facto plutocracy.

They could sell small house, little 160 square foot studios for ~50-80k in major cities but zoning laws keep housing extremely expensive.

You're NOT ALLOWED to build a dwelling a worker at McDonalds can afford. This is so your owners can collect rent, forever keeping you down.

Think about that. It's essentially AGAINST THE LAW to provide affordable housing.

The only consolation is you can buy REIT which is essentially being a partial landlord.
NYSE symbol APTS

Post: #118

(05-23-2015 08:50 AM)Dr. Howard Wrote:  

(05-20-2015 03:20 AM)It_is_my_time Wrote:  While it is a noble cause, I see the end result being the same as most every time the govt. interferes with the economic process...

The rich get richer, the poor remain poor, the middle class gets stuck with the bill.

To pay for the increase in labor costs companies will have to...

- Raise prices - hits the middle class, as they don't get a pay raise but the costs of goods and services goes up. The poor do get a pay raise, but the COL goes up along with it, so they remain poor.

- Cut workers - hits the lower class, less low class jobs. Hits the middle class as those on welfare will increase taking from the tax base. Add to it, the middle class children no longer can find the minimum wage jobs their parents enjoyed to help afford extras/save for college. I believe I heard some where that the % of teenagers with a job today has dropped in half over the last 20 years. More and more underemployed adults taking these low class jobs as nothing else is available.

- Eat the cost - Large companies, owned by the elites, can afford to do this. Small businesses, owned by the middle class, simply cannot. Eventually the small businesses will close up shop and the big boys win.

It will be more of the same we have seen for the last 20 years. The rich get richer, the poor remain poor, and the middle class gets stuck with the bill.

I don't disagree with a wage increase for anyone but I object to government being the means to do it, especially with an "this is the solution for every business!!!" mentality.

I wouldn't have any gripes if mcdonalds workers unionized, went on strike and then negotiated for $15. That is negotiation between the workforce and the employer. If mcdonalds just lets them strike, installs machines or mexicans...then guess what. They weren't worth $15.

Unionized or individual negotiation allows for the true cost of a job to be revealed. Too high of a wage and it breaks the company, too low of a wage and you get a strike.

Yes, there is a reason the wealthy elites are all pushing this liberal agenda (Gates, Buffet, Sandberg, Zuckerberg, etc.).

It makes them more money.

Raising the minimum wage will hurt the lower, middle, and upper middle class (doctors and lawyers), but will make the $100,000,000+ value elites even more wealthy.

You are right, this could be done on a company basis with unions and let the free market determine if the company survives. But the govt. mandating is just a way to make the elites even more rich.

Post: #119

This min wage debate always sparks intense debate.

Both sides are wrong. The people advocating the "end of the world" are wrong, but then so are the people saying there will be no impact.

Most economists now agree that small min wage increases phased in over time don't have immediate dramatic effects on the unemployment rate. The real problem with constantly raising the min wage is that research has found that it lowers the rate of growth of employment in the future. Which makes sense since as wages go up (through mandate or through wage inflation), employers get more picky about who they hire, they automate where they can, learn to live with lower profits or in some cases are driven out of business.

So the real question this: what sort of a trade-off are people willing to accept in order to have a higher min wage?...and what is to be done about people "priced out" of the job market (i.e., what to do about people who's hourly productivity is lower than the min wage)?

Those are questions that are more pertinent.

Post: #120

"This is one of the most vicious things about de facto plutocracy.

They could sell small house, little 160 square foot studios for ~50-80k in major cities but zoning laws keep housing extremely expensive."

It's not the plutocracy. It's old boomers who don't want anyone a whit richer or poorer than themselves in their hood, and want to freeze their hood at the moment they moved in, because that was its Golden Age, and everything has gone down hill since. If you get the slightest bit involved in such issues, this will become abundantly apparent.

Arguing over the minimum wage and staying silent on housing is fucking retarded. It just means you've been conscripted into a comparatively pointless debate, you're a useful idiot. Sure, don't think about the 50-70% of household spending going towards cars and houses...

Post: #121

(05-19-2015 06:54 PM)WalterBlack Wrote:  Los Angeles follows Seattle in $15 hourly minimum wage

Quote:Los Angeles has become the largest city in the US to agree a $15 (£9.67) minimum wage.

The City Council voted 14-1 to pass the law in a victory for the national campaign to raise wages for low-paid workers.

Seattle and San Francisco have already agreed to increase the minimum wage to $15 by 2017 and 2018 respectively.

That compares with a $7.25 federal minimum wage which individual states can opt to beat or reduce.

"Today, Los Angeles becomes the latest and largest city to throw its support behind the legions of workers who ask for nothing less than to be paid a fair and decent wage," said Christine Owens, executive director of the National Employment Law Project, a lobby group for worker rights.

The $15 minimum will be in place by July 2020, according to the proposed legislation.

To get there, from July 2016, the wage will increase annually starting at $10.50. Non-profit organisations with 25 workers or fewer will have longer to raise wages.

"There's still work to be done, but you will not see this council shy away from its responsibility," Council President Herb Wesson said on his Twitter account.

US retail giant Walmart - the nation's largest private employer - announced in February it plans to raise wages for employees at its US stores.

By 1 February 2016, all current workers will earn at least $10 per hour, it said.

How do you guys feel about this?

My female co-workers were bitching that they don’t think somebody who flips burgers deserves $15/hr. They also think that there’s going to be loads of people running across the US-Mexico border coming to work for the higher salary. I countered that I doubt it, since people who come here across the border tend to work under the table and are paid less.

Not a problem for the business owners. Costs will just be passed on to the consumer.

Post: #122

Once again, this is all product of delusional liberals who only do things because they look "good" and want to make themselves feel better about themselves. While I do believe that people who work hard and fair should be paid fair wages and benefits, I don't believe government should be the route for this. Achieving good pay and benefits should be achieved via workers unionizing and negotiating with employers/employer associations collectively so that to maintain competitiveness for their employers but also achieving the highest wages possible permitted by the market.

Achieving things via government action always backfires because governments a lot of times create incentives that go completely the opposite of what they wanted. Take a look at the war on drugs as the perfect example.

Post: #123

(05-21-2015 08:12 PM)Samseau Wrote:  

(05-21-2015 06:39 PM)Merenguero Wrote:  

(05-21-2015 05:21 PM)8ball Wrote:  A couple of things i am trying to figure out:

This raise will be for the "CITY" of LA and not the county, right? Which means, santa monica, west hollywood, BH etc will not be affected?

If thats case then we can assume more business will move to el segundo and maybe more bars/restaurants would relocate to weho since the low wage might offset the high property rents.

For now, it just appears to be the City of Los Angeles, and not the county and you may be right about about more bars, restaurants, and other businesses relocating to other cities in Los Angeles County or to unincorporated areas of Los Angeles County. Don't be too surprised if other cities within Los Angeles County like Long Beach, Santa Monica, and Burbank follow suit.

If LA does it, it probably won't be long before the rest of CA does too.

It looks like Los Angeles and Frisco are the guinea pigs. If it results into a massive local recession, it likely won't catch on. If we see a slew of small businesses relocating from San Francisco to San Jose or from Los Angeles to Santa Monica and the Frisco and LA economies tank, we might not see higher minimum wages in the rest of the state. A business that employs a lot of low wage employees would be insane to remain in Los Angeles when they can set up shop a few miles away and the rest of their costs will stay the same.

Post: #124

Sowell has some interesting observations on the minimum wage:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6TGkfjaxFWs

Post: #125

I'm not sure about hamburger machines, but we just got an automatic pizza machine here in Croatia, and pizza has to be a lot more complex than a burger.